I am very, very disappointed...

[kentuck]

In the way the Democrats handled this Alito nomination. They have known for several weeks that the vote was coming up to either approve or to filibuster his nomination. There was absolutely no reason to get to this point and not know where your own members stood on their vote. Yes, they were on Christmas and New Year's vacation, but that is no reason not to have contact with all the members.

They should never have raised any expectations of a filibuster unless they knew there was a credible vote count that would permit such a maneuver. To get up to the last minute before the vote and then realize we don't have the votes is a failure of leadership, in my opinion. They would have been better off to simply say from the beginning that it appears Mr. Alito will be voted thru on a slim vote. I am very disappointed in the way this process was handled.

[Vincardog]

1. It could be time to elect some real Democrats.

[oldtime dfl_er]

6. or it could be too late

beloved democracy is circling the drain.


http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/658059

[blm]

2. It was up to the Judiciary Committee hearings. Media spun fulltime against

the Dem members and portrayed Alito as standing down every question, instead of telling the truth that he was NONresponsive and SHRUNK from the truth.

[KittyWampus]

60. BLM, You Have To Stop Blaming The Media. The Democrats Need To

deal with it... and come up with a solution NOW. Not have some plans for deregulating it in the future when we finally are back in power.

Do you understand what I am saying here?

The Democrats simply didn't have a MEDIA PLAN to deal with Alito. No public relations campaign was rolled out to counter the GOP Media onslaught.

The Democratic Party is effectively dead if it does not come up with a stragegy for dealing with the Media and Mediawhores.

[Totally Committed]

64. I agree...

the media is a factor, but only one factor.

Maybe this will be the watershed event that will shock the base of this Party enough to take back the Party once and for all. I'd like to think something good could come of this, and that's the only thing I can come up with. Then, it could be too late. Who knows?

TC

[leftchick]

3. disappointed????

my but that is mild language. They are traitorous bastards for not standing up for the Democrats and this country against the creeping fascism that is bushco**. They are worthless.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. Thank you

Took the words right out of my head.

Yes. Exactly.

[converted_democrat]

8. I agree with you completely..

I've been calling, writing, and donating.. I've literally put my ass on the line.. Why aren't they? I can't keep fighting for people that won't fight for me..

[Jane Austin]

19. Seems to me the leadership HAS been fighting for you.

Just because the media, the administration, the majority party and conventional wisdom is all against them, doesn't mean they aren't using every tool they have to try to block this thing.

The numbers and the money are against them - - and us.

[converted_democrat]

26. Bullshit they have..There are a couple that are fighting, but that's it..

A couple isn't enough...

[baby_mouse]

34. There's a communication block here, I think.

They are not good at making their position clear.

[dl5192]

29. Your ass is on the line???

Seriously? So your job is on the line is what your saying? Or are you just saying you've donated some time and money? I wouldn't describe that as your ass on the line...a little heavy on the drama, brother.

[converted_democrat]

31. It's the truth... I signed up for a peace group, I gave to

nearly every pac that acts like it has a clue, and I've donated to every Dem canidate I think puts out some effort.. In return, my mail is snooped through, and my husband is losing county contracts that we have held for years..

I wrote back in Aug. on DU about how our mail was being gone through, back before we even knew about the snooping stuff. My ass is on the line here, thank you very much.

[dl5192]

37. Sounds interesting...

...but how do you know for a fact that there is some sort of organized effort against you? Are you sure this is not a bit of a tinfoil hat thing? How do you know that a nosey neighbor isn't going through your mail?

[converted_democrat]

41. It isn't tin foil at all..

I sit by the window, here on the computer everyday.. The mail is delivered to the front of the house, never leaving my view.. I run to get it, so I can get the checks posted properly. No one could touch the mail without me seeing it, and we have a dog that is bigger than I am, that would not let anything in our yard.

We started losing county contracts that had been ours for years, and no one will explain why. We have one of the largest corps in the county.. We are no longer invited to "social events" the way that we used to be.. It's just alot of odd stuff. I'm sure the reason my mail is gone through is because I belong to a peace group..(There have been many reports of it happening here in Florida, though it's mostly Quakers that it's happening to.) And I'd put money on the reason we are losing the county contracts.. There are 20 some thousand pukes, while there are 5 thousand Dems in our county.. When we went down to change our political (we used to be pukes) affiliation, the election super asked us specifically- "Do you really understand what you're doing here.." We said that we did, and not 2 weeks later we lost our first contract.. There isn't anything tin foil about it..


It's happening on two levels.. The Feds are going through the mail because I belong to a peace group, and we're losing the county contracts because of the good ole' boy network that thrives in our county..

[leftchick]

40. all democratic asses are on the line

I know exactly how you feel. I donated all of my time, money and energy to the kerry campaign and the democratic party in 2004. I did all of that while suffering excruciating pain from a herniated disc. I literally suffered physically for our cause. I also joined several peace groups including the Quaker's Friends committee. Shortly after that I had a big old dark SUV parked on my street for a week. I thought I was paranoid at the time now I know better. And I suffered and gave my time for fucking what exactly? For the democrats to F O L D at the most crucial moment in our nations history???

[Jane Austin]

43. WHO has folded?

Byrd? Johnson? Nelson?

These aren't Democratic leaders.

[converted_democrat]

53. Take a good look at the legislation that has passed recently...

CAFTA, the Bankruptcy Bill, The Energy Bill, The Highway Bill, The Medicare Drug Bill.. It's all been crap.. And they all passed with quite a few Dems behind them.

[sproutster]

61. hell if it is

Day before yesterday am hours was waiting to see if I was laid off.

I'm practicing "You want fries with that?" in between praying, emailing and calling for a fillibuster and posting Dirty Buttsex Bush for the search engines.

[seabeyond]

11. i am almost speechless. the minute they start fighting for it, yawl

dump on them. i dont get it. i really dont

i will go out of this thread and let you all have your bitchfest

[Walt Starr]

5. But there are no political consequences for not filibustering

ergo, why should they give a shit?

Seriously, no consequences = who gives a shit. That's the way it works.

See, with the Repugnants, they know a NO vote carries consequences. They lose their religiously insane base if they vote NO on Alito.

Not so with the Democrats and their Rational base because the Rational base of the Democrats will still turn out in November and rationally cast a vote for them, regardless of how the Alito nomination goes.

So there you go, there are no consequences so the Democrats don't give a shit. If we acted more like we were insane, they'd give a shit, but we are Rational, so they don't give a shit.

[acmejack]

10. Perhaps we can rationally find candidates to oppose them in the primaries.

Serious opponents running serious campaigns which seriously threaten their cushy safe incumbencies. We can do that, can't we? Or are decent candidates really that hard to come up with?

[Walt Starr]

12. Why the hell do you think they put it off until now?

In most cases, it's too late for a primary opponent to file.

They gotcha!

[acmejack]

16. I am patient & they have to run every two years.

I'll remember this sell out, in fact I am sure we'll be reminded of it every time the SCOTUS shoves another abominable ruling up our collective rear ends. Believe me, Walt, you have no corner on the outrage market.

[Walt Starr]

22. Senators run every SIX years, not two.

Too late. They gotcha. All you can do is withhold your vote this year. That's it.

If the left now decided to stay home in droves and allowed teh Republicans to utterly defeat the Democrats, or better yet, showed up in droves but cast no vote whatsoever for either a Democrat or a Republican, we'd have their attention.

That won't happen because only the religiously insane do that to the likes of George H.W. Bush in 1992.

[acmejack]

30. Please Walt I fully understand that!

Perhaps it was inartfully expressed, but I was confident you would grasp my point. I agree we're hosed this year and yes I am really, really, pissed about it. In my case I have two Rs so I will be able to work on getting rid of one of them. But will I be just putting in another impotent D? Why bother?

[Walt Starr]

32. I have a (D) Senator who is up for re-election this year

and I hold him personally responsible for Al;ito being confirmed without a filibuster and the REpublicans going nuke since he's teh Minority Whip.

[lonestarnot]

7. I haven't heard any fat ladies singing yet.

[seabeyond]

9. my gosh kentuck...... can you find something else to bitch about?

this post is a kicker. people are rallying with kerry to get that filibuster..... you have been yelling for it for a couple days now. it is at least somewhat coming your way. and now..... you throw in a white towel. just amazing.

the dems didnt promise you a filibuster on alito. they just had hearing this week for the answers they werent satisfied with. it isnt sittin well with our dems. they probably worked on filibuster votes yesterday and fell short. now they have a second wind and are going for it

whatever

[kentuck]

17. Yeah, I could find something else to bitch about...

but, I will restrain myself at the moment. But, I am adding the numbers. We have 44 Democrats and 1 Independent that vote with us sometimes. When we reach a certain number of Democrats that say they will vote to close debate, there is no filibuster. The filibuster is over. If you don't get 41 votes, the filibuster is over. I guess we can hold out hope to get some help from a few Republicans?? I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they will twist a couple of arms and get them to change their vote. We shall see. I am the realist. Let's see where Byrd goes??

[Jane Austin]

13. Seems to me that the Dem leaders have been downplaying the possibility

of a filibuster right along, and I imagine Harry Reid has known exactly where everyone stood, which is why he hasn't told you how many votes he has.

How stupid would that be, to announce that he doesn't have the votes?

You say "They should never have raised any expectations of a filibuster unless they knew there was a credible vote count that would permit such a maneuver", so if I'm wrong about thinking the leadership didn't raise expectations of a filibuster, please show me where they did.

Thanks.

[kentuck]

18. You are probably correct...

I keep seeing these Democrats saying they will not vote to go along with a filibuster. I'm a realist. If a certain number says they will vote for Alito and a few more say that they will not vote for a filibuster, then I see reality, not wishes.

[Jane Austin]

20. It's damned tough, all right.

I have been depressed and in tears a good part of the time for the last two weeks.

This is the most important vote in my (considerable) lifetime, and I am terrified of the consequences.

[kentuck]

23. Exactly why our leadership should have had the votes in line...

to filibuster this choice. But, we are now down to the last minute and they are behind closed doors trying to reason with a few Democrats. I am more than disappointed.

[Jane Austin]

44. More likely they are behind closed doors saying

"Don't ask the Democratic party for any campaign money next year.

[cascadiance]

24. Does anyone wonder if Harry Reid's pro-life stances on abortion...

have anything to do with the way this is being played out? I wondered way at the beginning when he was made minority leader whether his pro-life stances were going to give us a problem in this circumstance, and I wonder about it now. He's been good about many issues, and has made me feel better about him since then, but this whole effort required more arm-twisting from Democratic leadership to do what's right for America. The only arm twisting that appears to be going on in the Democratic ranks is coming from the DLC!

Perhaps if this fails we need a new Senate Minority leader. Perhaps someone like Barbara Boxer!

[Jane Austin]

46. "The only arm twisting that appears to be going on in the Democratic ranks

is coming from the DLC!"

And you know this how?

It makes no sense and sounds ridiculous on the face of it.

[cascadiance]

55. The DLC is the one that just said they didn't want a fillibuster!

Can't it be more obvious? The DLC IS being paid for by corporate interests... Has anyone shown any substantive consequences for doing a fillibuster for America versus the potential calamity of letting this man on the bench?

I would argue that circumstantial evidence shows that DLC is arm-twisting those that are on the fence now. Logic would dictate they (and we) fillibuster. Money and arm twisting would dictate that they don't.

[Jane Austin]

57. Dupe. Self delete.

[Jane Austin]

58. The DLC drives me nuts.

In fact, the longer bush has been in office, the more leftward I've moved.

But your assertion is still just supposition, and there may be something to it; but it's your supposition, not fact.

I think there is plenty to hold against the DLC as well as those DINO Democratic Senators, but it doesn't help us to make accusations that aren't backed up by facts.

I'd like to see them attacked for their corporatist policies, and not for what we may imagine they are doing behind the scenes.

[mattclearing]

14. Isn't it a little early for a postmortem? n/t

[Marnieworld]

15. Has there been a vote? A call for cloture?

Did I miss something? You sound like it's over and it's not over yet. For not announcing their intention to filibuster is just basic common sense. It must be done well and swiftly. They can't tip their hand. There are some arms being twisted in back rooms. NGU. :patriot:

[cascadiance]

21. I expect every REAL Democrat to vote against cloture...

There is no "embarrassment" of trying to launch a fillibuster and not having the votes to prevent cloture.

We're talking now about senators being on record of what THEY THEMSELVES wanted to do, not hiding behind a wimp group of senators that are trying to say "you don't have any other choice" to us!

I want those to stand up, like Kerry has, and say that they are going to try and do the fillibuster, and even speak to that when it is their turn, saying that no matter what other DLC wimps in their party do, that they will stand with the American PEOPLE's and the Democratic constituents' wishes to do a fillibuster!

If all of these folks do this, then we know who we can vote for and who we need to vote out, with an underline! It's time to make the primaries count for something again, and not just be a "rubber stamp" any more.

Just say NO to the DLC!

[Jane Austin]

25. Just say NO to the GOP!

That'll get it done better than "Just say NO to the DLC!"

We've gotta keep our eye on the ball.

[cascadiance]

28. Gotta clean house inside first!

I agree fully with saying NO to the GOP! But in this battle, the Dems had the power to fillibuster. Nothing the Republicans would do should have had any control over that (other than a subsequent "going nuclear").

Pure and simple, the DLC is responsible for the split in the Dems that has destroyed any hope it had of being an opposition party. And that is what the mission of the DLC is. They DON'T WANT a viable opposition party to the Republicans who are the party that is implementing their corporate masters' will! The DLC is there to keep the Dems in check and keep them from fighting the corporate juggernaut!

That's why NOW is the time to stop the DLC! Once we can clean house of them, then we can in a more unified fashion fight against the GOP!

[Jane Austin]

42. We don't have the luxury or the time to clean house first.

I want all our energy and brains concentrated on cleaning the GOP out of every seat possible.

[kentuck]

45. We need to catapult the propaganda...

we need to get the truth out there. They are lying like dogs and getting away with it.

[Vinca]

27. I swear, sometimes I wish I was a member of the brain dead

morons who can't name a justice on the court. Maybe I'll start watching sitcoms and soap operas instead of CSpan.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Won't we have 41 to support a filibuster? I thought we had 44

who would vote no and then those who would support a filibuster was up in the air. We don't have enough to support a filibuster, I take it? If that's the case, I'm MORE THAN disappointed! I'm pissed as hell!:grr: I will give up this useless party. I am so sick of these spineless weasels.

THE QUESTION STILL REMAINS...WHAT DID THE DEMOCRATS GET OUT OF THE GANG OF 14 DEAL??? NOTHING!!!!!!!! THE REPUKES GOT THEIR RW WACKO NUT JOB JUDGES CONFIRMED AND WE GOT NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate this fucking party. IF THIS ISN'T AN "EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCE" WHAT THE HELL IS????:grr::grr: I knew this would happen. I KNEW they would still get their fucking SCOTUS judges confirmed. I KNEW IT. As usual, we Progressives have been told to FUCK OFF by the Dem party.

How many no votes do we have? You mean we've been LIED to all week?:grr:

[Generator]

36. Oh here I go-yes the gang of fourteen agreement

I will never forget Will Pitt claiming "we saved Roe. V. Wade" with this. NO! I knew it was a bad idea. Wrong wrong wrong. You don't compromise, back down and give up to bullies and thugs. IT never works. And what would have impressed us loyal Dems and some undecided or apathetic voters-is that if they went nuclear and destroyed the fillibuster option-we could have protrayed that as un-American and all the rest. We could have been outraged and demanding and never let them forget it. Instead we are cowards are reap the rewards.

The only answer is obvioulsy a civil war in the Dem party. This shit is over. They don't represent me.

[MoonRiver]

63. You called it a long time ago.

I've still got hope, but if these idiots cave AGAIN I am finished with them. Fair warning to any DNC lurker leaders: if you are bound and determined to destroy the Democratic Party, and prove it by not filibustering Alito, many among your previously loyal base will bail. Do you even care anymore??????????????
:nuke:

[kentuck]

35. It's getting down to the nitty-gritty...

Specter wants to have a vote. But, Democrats say they have more speakers. Seems the Dems are killing time to see what they can get together. But, it appears the inevitable is about to happen, imo... Unless something very dramatic happens?

[Orangepeel]

38. I don't think they raised any expectations of a filibuster

It has always been clear to me that there wouldn't be one.

It was activists (especially online activists) who believe there should be a filibuster who have raised expectations of one, hoping to force one. That's not a bad thing -- activists should lobby and try to force what they want. But the party and it's leadership have never raised expectations (only tried to keep from categorically ruling anything out).

That's why so many people here have been so pissed for the past week or so -- because Dem Senators and the party kept trying to lower expectations.

[kentuck]

39. You are probably correct...

on this point. The Party did not raise expectations. We expected it and we raised the expectations. We should be pissed off at ourselves, not the Party. It's our fault there isn't going to be a filibuster because most of the Party, with a few exceptions like Kerry, never raised any expectations.

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. The Democratic leadership never raised the expectations of a filibuster

It has been the internet-based activists which has done that.

[cascadiance]

49. They've never raised expectations of representing us either!

That doesn't mean that I shouldn't call them to the carpet for NOT representing our wishes and basically telling us to F' Off when they get bought off by the DLC and other entities to surrender our Democracy to the corporatocracy.

They'll regret it when some of us start seeing that perhaps the only hope left for us (after trying to be decent citizens of what we'd thought was a Democratic Government) is armed insurrection! This country won't be a pretty place then, and the consequences of what they have done now will be FAR WORSE for everyone here than if they'd sided with us (I still fail to see ANY significant consequences to the American people by them fillibustering).

[NashVegas]

48. Kentuck, I'm Not So Sure

In not raising the red flag of a definite filibuster, the Dems have allowed:


The NSA spying to be the Federal Gov't headline on the political pages for two weeks straight.

Their message about *why* they don't like Alito to take media precedence over a possible filibuster/nuclear option showdown.

* and Gonzales to go forward with their arrogant defense of the spying.


IOW, it's given the Dems two weeks to get their message about Alito across, as opposed to letting it get buried in the headlines of a possible filibuster. If Kerry had come out two weeks ago calling for one, that's all we would have been hearing about, instead of the dot-connecting between Alito's penchant for government power and the NSA scandal.

The complete loss of spontenaity in politics is largely responsible for Karl Rove's successful manipulations.

Now we'll find out what Karl's Plan B is.

[kentuck]

50. There may still be hope...

Some brave people have pointed out the possibility of a filibuster is still there. So long as have a shot, we have to keep the pressure on. It's war.

[Midlodemocrat]

51. What makes you think we are being told the whole truth

and nothing but the truth? I think they have had this in the works for sometime and only now went public with it. Which, of course, is their right.

[kentuck]

52. If this is true, it would be a devastating blow to the Repubs....

They would be scattered. Then they would have to go the "nuclear option"...then we filibuster that also? :) Because they say that votes on judges should not require 60 votes. However, a vote to go to "nuclear option" is a separate vote from the vote on judges per se and would require 60 votes....

[Midlodemocrat]

54. Yes. and keep hammering at them and hammering at them

until the rest of the country wakes up to what useless POS they all are.

[PaganPreacher]

56. A vote on the "nuclear option" would not require 60 votes...

it only takes 51.

Also, as a rules change, it is not subject to filibuster.

Read this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59877-2004Dec12.html



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[kentuck]

59. Thanks for the clarification!

That's too bad. Did that change recently?

[PaganPreacher]

62. No, it didn't change- clarification:

I didn't explain it very well; sorry.

If a Senator begins a filibuster, it does take 60 votes to end it ("cloture").

However, the "nuclear option" describes a suspension or revocation of the rule allowing filibusters in the first place, and rules changes take only 51 votes. Rules changes and other purely internal matters of the Senate are not subject to filibuster.

The idea of the "nuclear option" is fairly new, and has never been tried before.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.