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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 11:50 AM
Original message
Honesty in Politics
In order for the public to make informed choices, they need facts - they need the truth.

Yes, people can research and find the truth and they do have that responsibility - but shouldn't candidates themselves also be responsible for running a truthful campaign? For running a truthful government?

Lies hurt the country. I think we have no greater example than what we are living now.

I don't accept politicians lying to me to be "just the way it is"

I think it's only that way because people aren't demanding more.

People just accept it as something that can't be changed.

People just settle for it - like this is as good as it gets.

Saying politicians have always lied shouldn't comfort anyone.

Saying it's a time-honored tradition of politics doesn't say anything good about the practice.


It just removes the responsibility of demanding more from politicians.

It just allows politicians to get away with the lying.



But considering what we are all living through now - an entire executive administration filled with liars, and policies based on lies and more lies, and the members of Congress that prop up and promote those lies - don't we deserve a little honesty from politicians?


Shouldn't we be demanding honesty in all aspects of government - to include campaigning to get into office?

Shouldn't this be on the "must do" list?

I don't mean lip service to honesty - I mean demanding honesty with consequences if government can't be honest.

If you can't get elected by being honest, doesn't that really speak ill of the American people?

Isn't that insulting?

Doesn't that say the American people want to be lied to? That they like being lied to? That they have been lied to so much they expect it, and have settled for it, instead of demanding more? That a politician feels so much contempt for the American people that lying to the people is just a game?

Those lies have consequences for the people. Those lies can kill.

This isn't a game.










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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, 100%
This is exactly why we need sunshine laws and they need to be enforced. And this is why the classification system needs to be revised so that NOTHING is ever classified out of the reach of our Senators, Congressmen, and top Judges.

The more information we make available to more people, the more lies we can detect and the more honesty we will get.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly!
Without oversight, there is no honest government.

I think some people would hate government being honest - because then it shatters their illusions. But honesty in government is vital to a free society - shattered illusions or not - shattered illusions aren't as important as getting truth in government.


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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. People will hate open honest government
1. Because it takes work and requires attention. People are lazy.
2. Because it takes away a lot of opportunities for profit than they can get away with now. People are greedy.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Those who profit from the lies would fight it tooth and nail
and yes, that it requires work will stop other people

But I still want it :)

'Cause that's what is best for the country and the people - even if they don't know it.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'l join that army with you!
:woohoo:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
35. Is there a General Octafish in the making?
;)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. The lies and coverups brought us Bush2, 9-11 and Iraq war.
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 01:24 PM by blm
Hey, Democrats, the Truth Matters!
By Robert Parry
May 11, 2006

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051006.html
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Big THANK YOU for posting that!!
The past lies and cover-ups did indeed bring us to this point.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I believe Parry's is the single most important observation made since 9-11.
.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. "On Living In The 'World' of Lies" ... Sep-15-2002
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Excellent read!!!!!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you, ma'am. It's one of the most difficult topics I've addressed.
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 12:25 PM by TahitiNut
Not easy. Nope. Not at all. I guess that shows, though.

But it's very telling that it's so thematically close to your thoughts, I think. I'd hoped you'd appreciate it ... if only to show I certainly understand your feelings in the OP. Glad you did.

:hug:

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I'm reading it again in fact. Lot to think about
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. YIKES!! Got a HUGH script error message...
that was shocking...

HOpe I can read it sometime...

I *hate* when things disappear like that...

~~pout~~
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Seems OK now. (I saw that, too.)
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I'm so glad it's back! As one who has clear memories of that time--
although from the barricades, rather than from the bunkers.... I appreciate those words more than I can say.

I'll be rereading this, and sharing with others.

I agree... please have this published, if you can.

Wish I could write like that...

t h a n k s...
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Damn right. But what is really frightening
is the portion of the population that acceps lies as truth. And refuses to listen when the lies are called out for what they are. That's the worst part.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I know - even in the face of the truth, they bury their heads
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 12:33 PM by Solly Mack
and I expect some always will - those people just have to keep their faces buried...cause it's about what's best for the country and not their need to maintain their illusions.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. America post9-11, postKatrina, and postIraq War, TRUTH MATTERS MORE
DC Lies kill ALOT of Americans.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Exactly - the truth matters more
than the shattered illusions of those who wish to bury their heads.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's why a lot of people don't vote anymore...
They figure they're *ALL* crooks, and liars, so...

Yanno, at the risk of sounding like Pollyanna (which you definitely know I'm not...)there's an upside to this whole mess. It has pushed us ALL to get more involved, to dig deep for facts, and to be more on our toes. That's *also* required of democracy--an involved citizenry.

A lot of us dirtyhippiecommiepinkobums have kept up with our reading all these years, and have learned how to read between lines, also. But, there are a lot of people who have been awakened because of this ugly mess, and if it's bad enough, they won't forget what they've learned. Then, it's the next generation that will have to learn the hard way (assuming we still have a country at that point.....)

Getting back the press won't be easy. IN fact, I'm doubting, at this point, that it can be done. BUT-- we now have more resources than we had during Vietnam, and can figure out how to reach more people.

That really is a plus.

Diabolical, but a plus.

Sometimes citizenship really stinks.

:hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. "Sometimes citizenship really stinks"
Yeah it does!

I think there can be an upside to all this as well - it's a great time for transition and change. Such change can be for the better.

As long as the Press is owned by corporations with an agenda, the Press, as we know it, is gone.(my opinion anyway)

But we do have other means to get the information out there like you said.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Solly, I have been on this for some time, too.
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 12:50 PM by blm
I believe there have been people in our party who make it difficult for real anti-corruption, open government Dems to be heard as a significant voice in the party.

I posted this last Tuesday at Kerry forum:


>>>>
Kerry would be completely unbeatable by making clear right from jumpstreet

that he believes the people are respected most when they are told the truth and sharing the responsibility for the truth is what makes them CITIZENS - informed citizens.

Run as an open government Democrat that we all know him to be. Say he will open the books and let the chips fall where they may, because the country can no longer afford the luxury of lying to the citizens.

Kerry will get the support of the left AND right with a campaign like that. It's about time the people are treated as citizens and not voters to be manipulated into a cult of personality.
>>>>>



If he does choose to make a 2008 run he will not have the drag of all the Clinton-Bush cover up "strategists" on his candidacy. I would PERSONALLY BEG Kerry to add Robert Parry as a chief advisor.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You have been a voice in this fight for a while now
"It's about time the people are treated as citizens and not voters to be manipulated into a cult of personality."

Yes!!!! Yes!!!!! A thousand times, Yes!!!!!!

And I do agree that the fight is made harder because of people within the party that would rather goverment wasn't truly open to the people.

Lee Hamilton comes to mind...among others.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. If only more of US had supported those of YOU on the streets in the 80s
when alot of this was taking place, and where everything happening today is deeply rooted.

What a difference.

This is why I am on the NO MORE LIES campaign - and my greatest regret was not being in the streets with you and others back then.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. The climate back then was battling the same forces as today
And unless and until those with the power to hold the guilty accountable do exactly that, we'll be fighting those same forces over and over again.

I see no quick fixes. It has to begin with electing those who will hold the guilty accountable - even if it does cost them personally.

I think we have chance to out all of them now.

Put Bush behind bars and there will be those having a field day outing the entire criminal lot - and going back in time to show the connections.

And while some Americans will suffer from culture shock at such an awakening - such an awakening is needed.

I think jailing the Bush Regime would do America a lot of good. I don't think it will happen...because of the forces in play fighting against honest government.

When the poo hits the fan, it usually hits everywhere...and many that fear that poo hitting them have good reason to fear it.



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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. "the Press, as we know it, is gone"
Amen, sistah.

Did you see that thread about US press now at #52 in the world?

I'd laugh, but it's too painful.

As a person I know (who lived in Communist Czechoslovakia)has said repeatedly: "We knew we were getting propaganda, and learned to read between the lines. You (USians) don't even realize you're getting propaganda, so you swallow it."

*That's* the tragedy.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I saw that. Your friend is dead-on about swallowing the BS
And the belief in American exceptionalism(we're better than you!), the refusal to believe their government could be corrupt, will forever find them swallowing the propaganda


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. And THAT is why the meme "liberal media" was created. To distract from
the reality of the corporate media agenda.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yes - to hide the truth
exactly so
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Voters are MANIPULATED by personality politicians.
Voters who are respected enough by politicians to be told the truth are being honored as CITIZENS.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's the benefits verses the burdens of citizenship
We get the burdens (and the bills) of citizenship
Some chosen few get the benefits

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. "Honest politician" is an oxymoron.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. As Bobby Kennedy said.....
100% of Republican pols are corrupt.

75% of Dem pols are corrupt.

yanno, a person could get shot on DU for quoting him on that...

:rofl:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Think he went a little high on the Dem percentage - I'd say a minority of Dem
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 04:05 PM by blm
pols get coopted into the culture of secrecy and all, but more out of being convinced by the establishment that they HAVE to. This is what I believe happened to Clinton. I think Bush1 played him like a violin.
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