Is the executive branch currently attempting to install a dictatorship?

[Syrinx]

I know that is a wild idea, but the more I hear about what is happening, the more concerned I become.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. you need to ask?

sad, ain't it?

[Syrinx]

2. I keep wondering if I'm going crazy

I wish, for your sake, I were. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. No you are not going crazy

we are no longer The American Republic... and we live in the death husk of it

Will I vote November 7th, Yes

Am I pessimistic about the future? As I said, do I need to ask in my case?

[readmoreoften]

8. I agree. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it as well.

I feel like it's all hysteria-- because it is so alien and insane. And because I'm in denial. And because there is nothing we can do. I mean, there really fucking isn't. We can say that we'll blast our way out or stand and fight or cut and run or blah blah blah. But the reality is. When the jackboots come to your door, you will try to kill them and they will kill you. Or you will succeed in killing them and they will kill you. Or you will go quietly. Or you will go noisely. But you will go. Or maybe you won't go. Maybe they'll never come for you. Maybe they'll just come for your neighbors and you'll spend your life in your livingroom peaking out the window, wondering if and when they'll come for you.

This doesn't make me feel good about the upcoming election. If Bush is a dictator and we can all be disappeared, then doesn't that make the whole democratic-process thing kind of moot. Oh, I'm not saying that we shouldn't get out there and vote. Please. I'm just saying let's not kid ourselves. What are the democratics going to do? Unvote him dictator? The whole notion is absurd. The democrats in congress are never going to rise up, the way that the American people are never going to take to the streets.

It is what it is. And it is not good.

[Syrinx]

20. call to arms

This isn't meant to be a surrender. It is meant as a wakeup call. We must say out loud what we are facing, if we are to stand any chance of beating it back.

[readmoreoften]

22. I agree. Truth to power and all that.

I have this strange feeling I'm going to survive it, though. I think that's a good sign. There's a part of me that just wants them to get on with it. Suspend the election. Start the round ups. It's the lack of honesty that's driving me nuts. Once it's all out in the open I'm going to feel much better. I mean, that's if I'm alive. Oh, and if I'm not in ROOM101.

[zanne]

38. My nightmares agree with you.

Sometimes I'll actually think about such a scenario. All the marches and demonstrations in the world wouldn't do a thing to stop the thugs if they wanted to do it. As for those who think that arming everyone would give us a chance to win a battle, they're deluded. This isn't 1776. These bad guys have nukes. The only (and I mean the ONLY) chance we have is at the polls. And that's only if the powers that be don't mess with the machines. Pessimistic, yes. These are my nightmares.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zanne]

44. I wonder if we'd have the will for that.

You know how fast things go out of style here. Would be still be fighting during the Superbowl?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. That actually was invented duringf the heady

days of the American revolution, just saying...

;-)

[Imagevision]

79. Anyone who doesn't think that eliminating the middle class isn't on the agenda

is truly living in a sheltered world. -- back in 1985 I remember reading the by-lines on the cover of Newsweek magazine saying; The plans to eliminate the middle class.

This was 85 and I find it startling myself.

[Selatius]

3. You don't need a dictatorship.

All you need is a seat on the board of directors of a major corporation on Wall Street.

You can sit on that seat a lot longer than 8 years. Unlike the public sphere, there is no term limits on monopoly capitalism. From your seat of power, you can merely send forth servants into Congress to carry out your will. If you lose a servant to an angry electorate, that's not a problem. Just send another in his place with a bankroll to ensure he has an increased chance of regaining the lost seat.

[Solly Mack]

6. You make an excellent point

A dictator in America will come in terms Americans can accept more readily(rationalize it away)

Government run like a business
Wave the Constitution about as "proof" America is still a "free" nation
Continue to allow elections - regardless of how trumped up they are to protect the status quo
Continue to foster a feeling of liberty and justice for all...nevermind the reality

In short, to allow people to maintain their illusions. That way you get people to be willing participants in their own oppression.

[Syrinx]

12. I get the feeling the fascists are getting ready to come all the way out

Prescient quote from Frank Zappa... I'm sure you've seen it on DU -- and elsewhere.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre."

[Solly Mack]

13. I think about that Zappa quote a lot

:(

[Syrinx]

15. lately...

Lying in bed late at night (which is usually early morning for me), alone in my thoughts, I fear my government. I've done nothing wrong and I fear my government. That's sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Funny that you should mention that

That is the exact reason sleep eludes me right at the moment... and lord IT IS early, as in very early morning

[earth mom]

28. 4 am here...why am I reading DU? For the same reason. nt

[mwb970]

36. I wish the pollsters would ask about this.

It's a simple question: "Do you fear the Bush Administration?" It has never been asked.

Any guesses on the results?

[AliceWonderland]

69. Yes, I think about that Zappa quote a lot too... n/t

[H2O Man]

4. Yes.

It is worth pointing out that the foundation of their approach is to maintain power. And although they define their form of government as "democracy," and to a very large extent believe it is, they are delusional. The causes of their delusions are a combination of greed and fear.

It is likewise important to recognize that this is not something that has just happened. It has been a long and complicated process. This administration does not stand alone in intent. I would strongly suggest DUers read James Carroll's "House of War," which provides a fascinating insight into how our country has journeyed from WW2 to here.

Perhaps most importantly, it is important to be aware of the fact that we can and will survive this phase in US and human history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. May I suggest one word

When I was growing up in the 1970s in a country we are trying so hard to piss off by building wall, in hushed tones we called the whole thing Dictablanda, a soft dictatorship. That is the stage we are at right now.

Dictablanda.

[alfredo]

50. You from Poland or Germany?

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. No Mexico

and the Echeverria regime was called a Dictablanda for a reason, especially after 1968

It literally means soft dictartorship... and yes we watched what we said on the phone, my dad (who grew up in Poland and came to Mexico after WW II), repetaedly warned us on that point.

Amusing these days I say fuck hoover on the phone when a certain clicking sound comes on....

The bastards win when you are so afraid you don't say what you think, no matter what the languge used happens to be

[alfredo]

65. For myself, I have a thing for authority figures. I don't

like them. Some lines from a Jimmy Cliff song sums it up.


"And I keep on fighting for
The things I want, though I know
That when you’re dead, man you're gone
But I’d rather be a free man in my grave
Oh, than living like a puppet or a slave"

"The bigger they come, the harder they fall." Jimmy Cliff

[fooj]

9. Thanks for that comforting thought...

Perhaps most importantly, it is important to be aware of the fact that we can and will survive this phase in US and human history.

I can get some rest now. Thank you.

Note- with hope in your heart- that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light and we can, too.- K. Olbermann

:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

25. Sleep tight

I certainly can't. After what happened to us in New Orleans, the warm-up, I expect the same for the rest of y'all in the near future. :scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Swampie if I could make it right

for even one person... on antoher board I've taling wtih a Marine... he lost his family and his budies, he is pissed,

We may still be able to right this country... even if I am on the pesimistic side these days

[fooj]

52. You know what?

When I finally did turn in...I couldn't sleep worth crap. Toss. Turn. Toss. Turn.

((((((((hugs)))))))) :hug:

[w4rma]

11. It's not pre-determined, though. Our survival depends on our taking action.

GOtV for November 7! Fight for our democracy!

[H2O Man]

14. Absolutelty.

What we do from today to election day is extremely important. And on election day, we should be making sure that as many people as possible go to vote. That's a huge first step, something we can do to pump energy into that force we call "democracy." Even in places that the democrat might appear a sure winner, we need to vote. Likewise, even in contests where we might not find the democratic candidate inspiring, we need to vote.

We are involved in a process that is as important as it is difficult. One reason that the executive branch is able to do as much damage to our nation, and indeed the world, is because another branch is broken. There is an interesting book by Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein, called "The Broken Branch." It documents the severity of the abuses by the republicans in congress right now, though it is fair in tracing much of the wrong-doing to previous actions taken by people from both parties.

Yet we can fix the system. It's not going to be accomplished by simply voting once every two or four years for a person who will do it for us. It's only possible by way of dedicated, grass-roots level activism. We are witnessing this today in America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. And people need to understand the nature of what

we face... John Dean's book is seminal in that

[H2O Man]

21. Yes.

Dean's newest book remains one of the most important in the past five years. I think that it is extremely important for all Americans, particularly those at the grass roots, to have an understanding of the "personality type" that he discusses in that book .... which has the added bonus of being a sun, easy read. I think I've mentioned before that for those who enjoy Dean's book, another that takes it a step further is Fromm's "The Sane Society." It's an older book, but probably more important today than when it was originally published.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Don't forget true believer

Dean is an extremely good summary of all that work... and easy to listen to... I got my copy on CD so I can listen to it when I go work out.

Taking notes though can be a bitch

;-)

[troubleinwinter]

66. I had been telling myself that if we win Nov. 7th,

I can then rest. But I know that is not true. Even if we win, the fight for democracy is an ever continuing battle, and that we cannot ever rest.

A couple of wonderful, devastating videos have been posted on DU today set to the music of Simon and Garfunkle's 'Sound of Silence' on YouTube (one by a DUer). Browsing around there, I can upon a TV appearance of Simon & Garfunkle performing that song on TV in 1965. Forty-one years ago!

I remember well having participated in peace protests and sit-ins to end the Viet Nam war and against the draft. Tear gas, billy clubbings, police shooting, National Guard and State Police bivouacked on the edge of my town of Berkeley and rolling through our streets in tanks and helicopters spewing gas overhead onto herded, contained, trapped crowds. Protestors grasping the students from the school for the blind to help them run down the streets to escape the gas when none of us could breathe.

And here we are again. Between then and this admin. I had become complacent. NEVER AGAIN can I be complacent.

I think it may get worse before it gets better. Maybe if Dems win we can avoid reliving that horror on our own streets. Maybe, maybe not. I don't want to live it again. But if we must, we must.

But never again will I be complacent. Complacency permits it to happen again.

[Syrinx]

18. thanks for the hopefullness

I need all I can get these days. You are a mysterious figure. I hope you are the "insider" meeting with Mike Wallace (or Keith). :)

[Mme. Defarge]

56. I also take hope from the fact

that their so-called "base" seems to be crumbling. I don't think this was factored into the takeover plan.

[AntiFascist]

70. I agree with this....

I can't point to any specific evidence, but at certain times I sense a very real fear coming from the Bush family, specifically, and its closest associates (of course the greed speaks for itself). Unfortunately this is probably something that they thrive on, and it makes their game all the more exciting to them. One hopes that it will do them in in the end.

[tblue]

10. Does the Pope wear a beanie?

[Disturbed]

16. "Confessions of An Economic Hit Man"

This book explains a whole lot about how the Multi-Corps and the US Govt. operate.

[tblue]

24. I've heard the writer interviewed on the Radio, and I don't know if I can

stomach reading the details of how we have screwed one country's people after another. I know it will shatter all my faith, but maybe I need to go there anyway. This country is creating such bad karma for itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. What this country needs is a truth and reconciliatiion

commision and Americans, left, right center, indies, left handed, right handed, non commited, need to learn what has been done in their name

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. That one book is what made me see our government for what it REALLY is,

CORRUPT. It's a MUST READ book.

[tblue]

57. And then when you (or I) become so cynical about this country, no one

will have any idea what you (or I) are talking about, and think you (or I) are just shrill, fanatical, paranoid nuts. I feel like that already.

I was at a party with a Berkeley student there and we watched the PBS documentary, The Dark Side, and afterward we were talking about the CIA et. al in Central America. This young person said, 'Well, maybe there are individual Americans who did bad things down there, but they didn't represent America!'

Oh, I forgot. We're the good guys.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. I know. Most people don't know anything about what this country has done

in other countries. I didn't know until I read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" and I felt SO IGNORANT, USED and DIRTY. I'm so ashamed of this country now. Cynical? It's my middle name!

I'm shocked that John Perkins is still alive to tell his story. There's no wonder why we are so hated in Venezuela, Guatemala, Indonesia, Panama, Nicaragua, the Mideast and anywhere else we've had our dirty little hands.:( I FULLY understand why we are hated and it's shameful. Just shameful what we have done.

If you can, read the book. You will be SO pissed off...you'll see red.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Should I intro this kid to some of the refugees I interviewed

in the 1980s?

But we teach that crap from the moment they are out the womb... serious discusion never happens

In 20 years you will hear that about Iraq dime on the dollar. (Hell I got into a long winded discusion with somebody on another board yesterday that was already making esssentially that point)

[tblue]

76. Yeah, and it was a Berkeley student, too. My how times have changed

He told me he doesn't notice much political activism on campus. Everybody's caught up with getting ready to launch into their well-paying careers & listening to their iPods, I guess. A lot of people don't even realize we are at war. There's no draft, so who cares?


Those were the days

[tom_paine]

29. The New Totalitarianism will have enough aspect of Old America

(Eight year terms for our selected Emperors, among other things)

it will and has been calculated to create the maximum amount of confusion and doubt as to what exactly is going on WHILE IT IS GOING ON BEFORE OUR EYES.

History has shown this is a highly effective strategy that often succeeds. Even Hitler, if you read TheyThought They Were Free and Defying Hitler, moved slowly relative to his time and place that the transfirmation in Germany appeared to them to be moving much the same rate as it appears to be moving for us here in Amerika.

It's hard to swallow when one looks at the naked evil of the Nazis (or the naked evil of the Bushies) but it's true. Even the Nazis appeared to be moving slowly to their victims, slowly enough that civilized men kept doubting and questioning their sanity until it was too late.

As shall likely happen here (don't shoot the messenger).

[H2O Man]

30. Interesting ....

One of my brothers is a republican, though his conservative beliefs are based primarily on economic theory. His favorite politician was Tip O'Neill, so he is not completely lost to the dark side. He called me about a week ago, after playing golf with a guy who spent his childhood in Europe. The guy told my brother that Americans need to get over their refusal to compare anything to the Nazi experience, because there are serious similarities in how this administration has used hatred and fear of a "common enemy" to bring this nation to a dangerous place. He compared the steps that the Germans took to those that are being willingly taken today in this country -- exactly what you say here.

[Swamp Rat]

78. Like your brother, the rest of us thought we were free too.

Bushler is now officially the dictator/czar/emperor/despot of the Former Democratic Republic of the United States of America.

[readmoreoften]

31. Why is everyone voting that Bush is attempting to install a dictatorship.

But in my poll, everyone is saying that the Dems are going to kick it out of the park and Bush isn't going to use this new power. Do you think he's waiting for a better opportunity? I'm confused. Maybe it's a completely different voter bloc. Not sure.

[H2O Man]

32. There are two different

things being discussed. They are, of course, closely related. The first is: is the current administration attempting to acquire power that is the type that was called "the imperial presidency" in the Nixon era? There is really no debate that this is true, though on the national level, there are many republicans who believe that this will make our nation "safer."

The belief that "the Dems are going to kick it out of the park" is the response that democrats believe is needed to keep our nation safer from the attemp at an imperial presidency.

[readmoreoften]

33. How can a democratic majority help us if Bush has dictatorial powers?

I'm not whining. I'm asking specifically. I just don't see where they have power anymore. I suppose the power to pass laws concerning choice and gay rights and all sorts of things. But can that stop a dictatorship?

[ixion]

34. Dems will make gains, but that will do nothing to uninstall the dictatorship

that has been installed, because there are many -- but not all -- who are in favor of this dictatorship, in favor of 'Murikan Empire.

Just my two cents.

[tom_paine]

35. I like that line "uninstall the dictatorship"

http://jitcrunch.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoxMzdfRl9vMS5qcGd8bG9hZD1MMCxodHRwOi8vaW1hZ2VzLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vaW1hZ2UvMTI1MDczMzdfNDAweDQwMC5qcGd8fHNjYWxlPUwwLDM4MywxMjgsV2hpdGV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMMCxBZGQsNDgsMTc2fGxvYWQ9bWFzayxibGFuazoxMzdfRl9tYXNrX28xLmpwZ3xjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLG1hc2ssTWFzaywwLDB8Y3A9cmVzdWx0LGJsYW5rfHNjYWxlPXJlc3VsdCwwLDQ4MCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wcmVzc2lvbj05NXw=

Reminds me of this.

[ixion]

40. lol...yep

:rofl:

If only it were that simple. :-)

[H2O Man]

39. It's a valid question

that you are asking. I think it's important to keep in mind that it is an effort to give the executive office the dictatorial powers, not Bush as an individual. It might more accurately be called an attempt to impose "statism." It's an attempt to subvert the Constitution, from the concept of separation of powers in the federal government, to the absolute denial of the Bill of Rights to individuals. Again, this is not a new danger to democracy: our nation's history is filled with attempts by various administrations to gain an unconstitutional level of executive powers -- always, always, always for "national security" -- and we have witnessed numerous examples of the peoples' willingness to sacrifice certain groups and certain rights. On Countdown recently, Keith O mentioned examples such as the herding of certain citizens into "relocation camps" during WW2. I had mentioned the more recent dangers posed by Richard Nixon.

The answer to your question, therefore, is going to be found in the historic examples of what people have done in the past to deal with the same problem. In the end, I think that a democratic majority is going to, in and of itself, stop the trend towards statism. Rather, it is the vehicle by which the grass roots may .... much in the sense that Huxley wrote in "Brave New World" that "Only a large-scale popular movement toward decentralization and self-help can arrest the present tendency toward statism." That is, perhaps not coincidentally, what my recent essay "Make it Plain" was about.

[Daphne08]

47. I agree with your assessment, Waterman.

:thumbsup:

[AntiFascist]

87. One really scary thing that nobody seems to talk about...

the Republicans in power no longer believe in multiple party government. They are treating Democrats as being comparable to "the enemy" and as something that needs to be dealt with and even feared (of course the criminals in power should have plenty to fear themselves). This is yet another parallel to the Nazi party of Hitler, where the Reichstag fire (blamed on the Communists) was used to intimidate any party to left side of the political spectrum. One party rule and a unitary executive will logically be followed by a dictatorship. All they need is a major world war where much of the world turns violently against the US, declare martial law, then they are free to grab whatever resources remain among the stupefied sheeple. Wealthy people should take note, unless they're planning to leave the country, their comfortable lifestyle may radically change if the worst-case scenario comes about.

On edit: fixed spelling.

[Homer Wells]

68. I think that the Bush Regime wants the Dems to win

this upcoming election.

With all the fuck-ups that we will have to try and clean up, they will have two years to demonize the Dems, screaming in unison about us being "soft on terra", and any problems we run into in the next two years will also be blamed totally on us, so by 2008, they can bring out some really repugnant candidate for POTUS, and use all this accumulated vitriol to steal the Presidency once again.

Bush has outlived his usefulness to the Gang of Evil behind him, and will be summarily thrown out with the garbage.

[Orsino]

37. Not exactly.

But their extreme cronyism has us headed more or less in that direction. Ultimately, it'll be corporate fascism, in which the uber-rich rule us from within a walled compound/country club.

[TankLV]

41. Duh!!!

[mmonk]

45. I believe by their own words, this was to be

a 70 year rule and a 30 year war.

[rucky]

46. If only the House and Senate saw it that way.

then again, maybe they do, and the Dems are okay with it.. I mean, as it would stand, everybody would get to keep their jobs without that pesky Democracy getting in the way.

[StellaBlue]

48. DUH

And the habeas corpus thing was the nail in the coffin of any benefit of the doubt I was giving to these traitorous fuckers.

[left is right]

49. is there much hope for a road back

once a nation starts down the road to fascism? Do you reckon that it (the road back) would be so long and painful that most would be too discouraged to even attempt it?

[Raksha]

86. The road back from fascism doesn't have to be long and painful.

It can also be short and extremely painful! I don't care for this possibility any more than anyone else here, but there *IS* another way back. Once a country has progressed (regressed?) so far down the road to fascism and imperialism that its own people can't stop the momentum, because they've been disempowered, then other countries will stop it. They will have no choice. Then we end up getting our collective ass kicked like Germany did when it took that path. They might not even need to use muscle--they could also do it economically: Go to petro-euros instead of petrodollars, for example. Either way, the "cure" would be worse than the disease. MUCH better if we cut out the cancer ourselves!

[Pavulon]

51. Damn Folks This is a Wacky poll

I despise the policies of this administration, other then the no call list...

But really this is embarrassing to common sense members here.

There will be elections next month and elections in 08.

Large majorities are the problem. When presidents like Clinton and Regan win with large majorities there is no dispute over results.

The solution, do a better job getting the word out. The right word, we do a better job on security, economics, and policy.

Not we think bush is a dictator. I mean god damn this is a joke.

[readmoreoften]

53. If he's not planning for a dictatorship, why pass legislation that

destroys posse comitatus? Why design the legal infastructure for a dictatorship if you don't intend to use it?

[Pavulon]

101. Katrina..

Feds can take over national guard. Sorry I don't buy the coup plan..

[Syrinx]

85. If you can't see what is happening right in front of your eyes, I'm sorry.

The president now has the legal right to have YOU locked up and tortured, never to be heard from again.

If you are okay with that, forget I mentioned it.

[NotGivingUp]

96. and just what has to happen for you to even consider the

possibility" i think you're under the illusion 'never in america', and, sadly, that's what will allow it to happen.

[jimshoes]

54. How can you not help but think that

this is what they're up to? Every step they've taken, almost every law they've passed, every abominable signing statement he's penned leads directly to or facilitates the final step of declaring himself dictator.

[Mme. Defarge]

55. If it looks like a duck,

walks like a duck, sounds like a duck -- you know the rest.

[Homer Wells]

59. As Cheney would say

"Thats a No-Brainer"

[SeattleGirl]

67. Bingo, StephenB48!

I have never thought Bush was joking when he said, "This would be a heck of a lot easier if it were a dictatorship. Heh heh heh. As long as I'm the dictator."

:scared:

[lpbk2713]

60. In essence, yes.

I believe they are certain they can't get away with it but that won't stop them from seeing how far they can go before they are stopped.

[guinivere]

64. Sadly, I think the executive branch is heading that way.

A lot of what they have done points to dictatorship.

[Rex]

71. Who needs checks & balances?

:sarcasm:

[lovuian]

72. They are going to try

but I'm not going to tolerate it

[SPKrazy]

73. Well Yeah

read the headlines

they aren't even hiding the fact

[Bad Penny]

74. You people talk like they want to take away your freedom or something

[Donald Ian Rankin]

75. No, of course not, don't be silly, buy a dictionary.

Bush will leave power in 2008.

This kind of hysteria distracts from serious, important issues, like how best to ensure that the person who replaces him is a Democrat.

[Swamp Rat]

81. There you go again...

Take your condescension elsewhere. :eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

88. It's the only valid response, I'm afraid.

If people treat this kind of question seriously, even rebutting it seriously, it makes it looks as though it deserves to be taken seriously. Condescension and scorn are the only response appropriate.

DU is a very, very safe and protective environment for this kind of conspiracy-theorising, but if you try advancing a question like this out in the real world, where there are people who don't believe everything they read that confirms their existing prejudices, you will fall flat on your face, and queer the pitch of any points that *are* worth making that you subsequently make because everyone will dismiss them as coming from that guy who thinks the US is a dictatorship; better to get a hint of the lesson here in safety where there are hundreds of fellow-believers agreeing with you and only a few easily-dismissed Cassandras pointing out how silly the question is than to have it hit you from cold.

To compare what people living under a dictatorship have to endure to the current state of the US is to massively cheapen and demean their oppression.

[Swamp Rat]

89. You demean DUers then provide logical fallacies as a disclaimer

1) Ad hominem is not the only valid response.

2) The question asked by the OP must be taken seriously, despite what you, Donald Ian Rankin, think. You and your opinion do not, in any way, preclude the importance of the opinions and questions expressed by other American citizens and DUers.

3) "Condescension and scorn are the only response appropriate." - No, it is an inappropriate and juvenile response.

4) ".... you will fall flat on your face." - Wrong. I have have frank discussions with my neighbors, acquaintances, and weekly classroom discussions with graduate students. The response and reality of my visceral experience has been the exact opposite of your "DU is a very, very safe and protective environment" theory.

5) "better to get a hint of the lesson here in safety where there are hundreds of fellow-believers agreeing with you and only a few easily-dismissed Cassandras pointing out how silly the question is than to have it hit you from cold." - Sounds like a threat. You assume a lot about DUers that I know, for a fact, is wrong. Like most of my friends here I fear not what other Americans will think when I present them with my opinions and sound arguments.

By the way, you can waste all your time here calling us "easily-dismissed Cassandras." You have no idea how wrong you are about many members of this board. Meanwhile, we will continue to make an impact on this nation, each in our own way.

"To compare what people living under a dictatorship have to endure to the current state of the US is to massively cheapen and demean their oppression." - How do you know some of us did not survive living in a dictatorship? (Hint: there are Duers who have survived dictatorships). Did you live through a dictatorship? If not, how the hell do you know a goddamn thing about what you are saying? (Hint: you do not).

I assume you will likely respond with further ad hominem and condescension, but don't whine when I or other DUers take you to task for your sweeping generisations and fallacious reasoning.

[Syrinx]

91. you are The Man Mr. Swamp Rat!

Some people here refuse to believe what is obvious. We have become a nation of men. A nation of very, very flawed men (and one very flawed woman). We are a now not a nation of laws. Our so-called leaders in Washington have done everything that they can to circumvent the law, and when that doesn't work, they CHANGE THE LAW.

Some of these people think they are being mature and sober, when in reality they are being naive in the extreme.

Who among us alive today ever thought that the Writ Of Habeas Corpus would not only be suspended, but eliminated? Yet we have self-proclaimed "common sense" members here who refuse to acknowledge the obvious reality that we find ourselves in today. For them, common sense is defined as believing that this can't happen in America, because they've been told this can't happen in America.

With common sense like that, I'm glad I'm "book smart."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

99. No, I was calling *myself* an "easily-dismissed Cassandra".

The salient points about Cassandra were a) that everyone disagreed with her, b) that her warnings were not heeded, and c) that she was right. If you look at this thread, you will note that practically at the very least a) and b) apply to me.

As to taking me to task for my "fallacious reasoning", I think you're getting inebriated with the exuberance of your own verbosity. I purposefully didn't bother providing any reasoning, fallacious or otherwise, because I know from experience that it's not worth bothering with on this topic; I just chimed in so that people couldn't claim I didn't warn them (if you want reasoning, my views on the issue, and the response I got, are at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2264041&mesg_id=2264041).

Nor was anything I said in any way "ad hominem" - that would be saying that someone's views are wrong because they're a fool, not saying that I think that it is foolish to hold certain views.

I will say, incidentally, that if you want an example of "fallacious reasoning" and something that's not a bad example of an "ad hominem" attack" then you could do a lot worse than "you have never lived under a dictatorship, therefor you don't know what one is".

[Philosoraptor]

92. The Titanic didn't really have a problem till it sank beneath the waves

the dictatorship is coming, unless we stop it, and yes, it IS panic time.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

100. No, but nor did any other ocean liner.

The US may well become a dictatorship at some point in the future. It is not currently at risk of becoming one in the forseeable future.

A dictatorship is not coming; American leaders will continue to be elected and to be removed by elections, and those elections, while not perfectly free or fair (no election ever is), will remain largely so (far more so than in the large majority of other countries, and not immensely less so than the best in the business) for the forseeable future.

[sweetheart]

93. It happens a lot in the UK

People don't realize at all, what economic survival is like inside america for americans,
what its like being immersed in a media-blizzard of bullshit advertizements 24x365; and in
that misinformation blizzard, to realize that you are already a citizen with only 1 obligation,
to be taxed to pay for it... your rights are real as long as they don't impinge on 'it', but
the problem is that 'it' behaves like a corporate dictator, and the FBI has a list of all
DU'ers and if one applies for an important job in the oligarchy, the blacklist will be used
to stop their liberty.

So hmmm.. the world's largest prison population, police in your face all the fucking time
as if you life your life to be fuckeed with by police, and you're off on an island somewhere
pontificating about the differences between a dictatorship and effective plutocratic fascism.

Its easy to sit in judgement on that island, with your lifetime healthcare, public subsidized
higher education, guardian, BBC and private eye, and to, with this wealth of information,
make harsh judgemnets about the american people and the polyarchy of war-prison-industries.

I've heard people in britain say: "I don't know what's wrong with americans to vote for
someone like bush." And its an obvious statement if you are not aware of the suterfuge,
the real election manipulating corruption that would shame any dictator for the efficiency
of its persecution of poor people on every continent.

So, you american heros, even if you overthrow bush, by an accident of fate, the world blames
us all for bush, and holds us to the word 'democracy' and angrily demands we vote sanely.

Donald has touch of the context in his bias... he can't help it. It does appear, from UK,
media, how hard could it be to get rid of bush, they still believe the votes are counted,
and that the corruption is not as bad as it is.. as its a fairy tale in the UK about the
colony that made it, and visions of sugarplums bubble in UK teenagers who one day hope to
visit democratic utopia where they are free in a democracy without royals.

[lonestarnot]

97. Another yes man I see. People like you make the people who will not

tolerate a dictatorship have to fight twice as hard, which I don't mind fucking doing. Let me ask, how is it that you were soooooooo easily brainwashed? Is it that you watch too much Fox? Go to a Church that endorses the dictatorial agenda like sheeps silently to the slaughter? Or is it too difficult to think for yourself? Maybe you are part of the corporate elite and enjoy the benefits of oppressing a slave labor force? What is it with you?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

102. What it is with me is that I base my decisions on what to believe and disbelieve

on whether or not the person telling me it appears to be trustworthy, and whether or not it seems likely in light of the other things I currently believe to be true, not on whether or not I *want* it to be true.

The reason so many people believe, or claim to believe, that Bush is turning America into a dictatorship is very simple - it's because they hate him (not unreasonably), and want anything that makes him look bad to be true, and let this cloud their ability to think critically.

(Incidentally, to respond to your ad hominems, I've never listened to Fox News in my life and I'm an atheist and always have been, if someone's using an orbital mind-control laser on me then they're doing it fairly subtly, and I'm doing a PhD in maths with a view to becoming an academic mathematician, so I'm not part of any "corporate elite" although I could probably join it if I chose to)

[lonestarnot]

106. I don't really care about your personal beliefs, but I do care about

when you criticize DUers and express your erroneous opinions that DUers can't think critically, or for themselves and allege your group think crap. How much evidence do you need. As a math doctor, you should be able to examine evidence and put two and two together. Absolute control is the aim of bushitler, absolute control is the classic characteristic of a dictator. So why would you allege your group think crap?

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Those who lived through the years 1933-1945

in geramny (or Europe for that matter) may disagree with you.

They are increasingly reminded of... GERMANY...

I am sure you take comfort in your thoughts, but when they come to pick you up, nobody will be there to protect you or protest in your name

Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it, and you... Mr Ostritch, are enabling it.

[upi402]

105. I've been inside dictatorships OP,

and this ain't so very different.
i don't mean to shock anybody but there were 2 quasi fascist states that were more fun and less repressive.
the communist state was no day at the beach, *BUT*! if we put our heads down, way down, between our legs...
we can kiss it goodbye.


i disagree with you OP.
now is the time to pull our collective heads out of our asses. it starts by admitting things stink.

[Syrinx]

84. I don't want a Democratic president with dictatorial powers either

This is a matter of principle my friend. I would be just as outraged if it were President Clinton or President Gore seeking, and getting, absolute power.

I'm not hysterical, but I am pissed off and saddened by what is becoming of our country. If you are not, perhaps you haven't been paying close attention.

And by the way, my spelling may not be perfect, but I do in fact own several dictionaries.

[Jack Rabbit]

77. Regardless of whether they think that's what it is

does not have any bearing on the fact that that is, in fact, what it is.

[OneBlueSky]

80. well, duh . . .

the Patriot Act, the invasion of Iraq, the Military Commissions Act, signing statements that "interpret" legislation passed by Congress, the construction of detention camps, etc. etc. etc. . .

yeah, I think that'd be a fair statement . . .

[farmboxer]

82. It so appears that Bush said it himself

and I think he meant it.

[raysr]

83. Freeps'll be so

disillusioned when they come for their guns!

[EFerrari]

90. Wild? What about "accurate"? We have a president

who refuses to respect the law or the Constitution, who is controlled by interests contemptuous of both and a coterie of lawyers who are determined to find phrases that make their crimes sound necessary to the public.

We're there.

[NotGivingUp]

94. it's been their plan from the start

[rasputin1952]

95. Things like dictatorships happen when people refuse to see it

coming, and then are forced by fear, to acquiesce to the situation.

Phantoms brought to life by this administration have set the stage where people are willing to surrender what they have known all of their lives, Freedom, Liberty and basic Rights, for a perceived sense of security. It is a false sense security to be sure, but people are pitifully ignorant of that.

This administration has become one of the most powerful in history, and Congress has essentially given it unlimited power, this cannot bode well for any Democratic Republic. Never before, has this nation had a Vice President with the power that Cheney has. Never before has the president of the US had the power to turn over what has been guaranteed in the Constitution, but Congress felt fit to just roll over and cry "protect the nation" when giving this power to the administration.

This is by far, the worst administration this nation has ever seen, but the future may indeed hold new horrors. There is no guarantee that a future president might not abuse the office far worse than his moron.

The only hope this nation has, is the hope it has always had, the People. To force fear from the forefront of the political discourse is essential in returning our nation back to We the People.
As long as people are afraid, they will go against their knowledge of Freedom, and fall into a web of false security that inevitably destroys precisely what they have grown to love and respect.

These are sad times indeed, and we need to do all we can to alleviate the fear that this administration has instilled in the psyche of so many.

[Mass_Liberal]

103. No.

they are trying to expand the powers of the federal government while they're still in charge. Its happened before. The second the Repubs lose, they'll be trumpeting state's rights all over again. I have to say, the results of this poll are just ammo to those who harp on about the 'loony left'. Does Bush attempt to enact policies which I find threatening to our system of checks & balances (and individual liberties)? Yes. Is he/ the Republicans facist? No. And it makes us look insane when we say yes.

[AntiFascist]

104. The problem with your statement is "he/the Republicans"....

there is a definite schism between neo-conservative and paleo-conservative within the Republican party, and I have little doubt that the deepest Straussian friends of Michael Ledeen would welcome a form of fascism that would transform the Middle East through total destruction if necessary, while beating down any protesting voices. The problem Bush faces is that he's losing his support, even within important government divisions. He has been assembling all the tools he needs to establish dictatorial control, I'm waiting to see if he tries to assemble his own widespread militia.