unbelievable what's happening in Fl. voting

[donsu]

http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/15869924.htm


Glitches cited in early votingEarly voters are urged to cast their ballots with care following scattered reports of problems with heavily used machines.


-snip-

Several South Florida voters say the choices they touched on the electronic screens were not the ones that appeared on the review screen -- the final voting step.

Election officials say they aren't aware of any serious voting issues. But in Broward County, for example, they don't know how widespread the machine problems are because there's no process for poll workers to quickly report minor issues and no central database of machine problems.

In Miami-Dade, incidents are logged and reported daily and recorded in a central database. Problem machines are shut down.

''In the past, Miami-Dade County would send someone to correct the machine on site,'' said Lester Sola, county supervisor of elections. Now, he said, ``We close the machine down and put a seal on it.''

Debra A. Reed voted with her boss on Wednesday at African-American Research Library and Cultural Center near Fort Lauderdale. Her vote went smoothly, but boss Gary Rudolf called her over to look at what was happening on his machine. He touched the screen for gubernatorial candidate Jim Davis, a Democrat, but the review screen repeatedly registered the Republican, Charlie Crist.

-snip-

A poll worker then helped Rudolf, but it took three tries to get it right, Reed said.

-snip-

Broward Supervisor of Elections spokeswoman Mary Cooney said it's not uncommon for screens on heavily used machines to slip out of sync, making votes register incorrectly. Poll workers are trained to recalibrate them on the spot -- essentially, to realign the video screen with the electronics inside. The 15-step process is outlined in the poll-workers manual.

-snip-

Broward poll workers keep a log of all maintenance done on machines at each site. But the Supervisor of Elections office doesn't see that log until the early voting period ends. And a machine isn't taken out of service unless the poll clerk decides it's a chronic poor performer that can't be fixed.

-snip-

In Miami-Dade, two machines have been taken out of service during early voting. No votes were lost, Sola said.

Joan Marek, 60, a Democrat from Hollywood, was also stunned to see Charlie Crist on her ballot review page after voting on Thursday. ''Am I on the voting screen again?'' she wondered. ``Well, this is too weird.''

Marek corrected her ballot and alerted poll workers at the Hollywood satellite courthouse, who she said told her they'd had previous problems with the same machine.

Poll workers did some work on her machine when she finished voting, Marek said. But no report was made to the Supervisor of Elections office and the machine was not removed, Cooney said.

-snip-

Mauricio Raponi wanted to vote for Democrats across the board at the Lemon City Library in Miami on Thursday. But each time he hit the button next to the candidate, the Republican choice showed up. Raponi, 53, persevered until the machine worked. Then he alerted a poll worker.
-snip-
----------------------------


so did all those wrong votes stay in the count?


voting in Fl. is a joke

[wakeme2008]

1. But how many voters really check the review page

probably < 30% do... That how they get away with it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. And are the confirmed choices the votes actually stored?

That is how they deal with the rest.

[helderheid]

22. Exactly. Screen says my vote counted. Paper printout says my vote

counted. BUT... the votes they count - do THEY show my vote counted?

[phantom power]

24. No way to know. I can tell you from experience...

that an alarming number of people are unaware of the distinction between what's on the screen (or a printout) and what actually resides in a computer's memory. I have found this out the hard way, trying to explain to various people what OCR software does. The concept that an image of text they see on a monitor is not what the computer is storing or manipulating as a data structure is completely foreign to them.

This group of people is unlikely to understand the reason that voting fraud via software is possible. To them, as long as they see the image of their vote being recorded, then no voter fraud occurred.

[helderheid]

25. I'm just shaking my head. Is this beast too big to slay?

[phantom power]

29. No, I think it's far from hopeless.

I just think there are constraints on how you can explain these issues to people. I'm pretty sure that an actual technical understanding of why voter fraud is so easy with software is going to be a nonstarter with a large percentage of people. They don't begin the discussion with any understanding of how computers and software really work, even many people who use computers daily. And so you'd be forced to begin every debate with a brief lecture about computer basics, at which point you've already lost the momentum.

I think this basic dynamic holds for many issues of importance in the 21st century. Climate change, teaching evolution in the classrooms, nuclear energy (why it's a good thing), the budget deficit, why George Bush's War On Terror(tm) is bogus, the list is endless.

The GOP seems to have dealt with this dymamic by adopting a Straussian politics of manipulation. I would hope there's some other way, although I admit it's not clear to me what it is.

[kestrel91316]

53. I think you must mean "election fraud". Nothing you describe

here indicates any "voter fraud", which is fraud committed BY A VOTER.

[phantom power]

57. Yes, I suppose election fraud would have been the correct phrase

[LisaM]

2. I heard a woman a few years ago call a local radio show about calibration

She made a point that any heavily-used machine needs frequent recalibration, unless it's really top of the line heavy duty. Her example was that she used to work in a fish department of a grocery store, and they could tell when the machine needed recalibrating when it started charging the wrong prices. Her husband actually made similar machines. Interestingly, this recalibration issue doesn't seem to be brought up much (for good reason, I'm sure).

[Hav]

5. .

You might be right but what about these kind of machines in banks? I never had problems with those although the options are really close together.
I have problems to believe that these companies can't build reliable machines.

[Occulus]

16. What about McDonald's??

Jesus, people, this isn't rocket science- there are countless touchscreen machines that are "heavily used" every single day, all across the country, and THEY don't have the sorts of problems the voting machines are having.

For that matter, we use touchscreens where I work on some machines and THEY don't need frequent recalibration.

I'm thinking the calibration issue is a red herring, given how often these things DON'T fuck up elsewhere.

What about the U-Scan at Meijer?

:wow:

FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

[Hav]

4. .

No, I guess the vote is only recorded when the voter accepts what is shown on the screen after his/her choice. Doesn't change the fact that these voting machines are a farce.
It's the 21st century and we can't build simple machines like that? Bullshit, there must be hundreds of millions of machines worldwide that can interact with a user correctly by pressing on the monitor, yet these can't? Bullshit! I have my doubts.

[tridim]

8. Absolutely, the machines should work 100% perfectly

without the possibility of user/operator error, or they shouldn't be used at all.

Kind of off topic, but related.. My washing machine broke this weekend and flooded my basement. I've never explored the inner workings of a washing machine and was pleasantly surprised at the simplicity of the parts and the simplicity of the parts working as a whole. Working without a manual I quickly discovered the problem and had it fixed within 5 minutes (the lid switch was bent). THAT is how any electronic voting machine should work. There's nothing complicated about voting software, it should be 100% open source and very simple, just like a reliable washing machine.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. I agree. You think the banks would accept that level of fucking up with ATMs?

Shit, no. When there's money involved, somehow they make it work so they can track every penny.

But when it comes to accurately counting votes cast by african americans, for instance, somehow we're dealing with insurmountable technical issues. :eyes:

[C_U_L8R]

6. Could it be this simple....

if there are no voting machines... there is no vote

Repukes don't need to change the vote they just need to
mess with the code enough to make em unreliable.. and hence
put out of commission. Vote suppressed = Mission Accomplished

[OneBlueSky]

7. these "errors" are intentional . . . Diebold makes ATMs that are . . .

100% accurate 100% of the time . . . they have to be, because they involve money . . . but when it comes to our votes, there seems to be glitch after glitch after glitch . . .

try to tell me this isn't intentional . . . just try . . .

[sandnsea]

17. And that is GlitchGate

I wish we'd been saying just that for the last 2+ years.

[Fredda Weinberg]

48. The machines in Florida ain't Diebold

And the local media has been covering DRE debacles since 2002.

[coco77]

9. VOTE...

they are posting here and other places trying to stop dems from voting.

[jmowreader]

10. It's hard to buy the "slipping out of sync" excuse

The store I work in has many touchscreen systems--all our Point of Sale hardware is touchscreen. Some of it's CRT, some is LCD. None of those systems ever "slips out of sync"--they deliver consistent results every time they are used. Our sales day is fifteen hours long, and many of those terminals are being beat on for the entire fifteen hours.

My bank's ATMs are all touchscreen too; slipping out of sync just doesn't happen on those.

We had many touchscreen systems in Berlin. Not only did they NOT slip out of sync (and the places you had to touch to control the system moved around on the screen depending on the function you were trying to control), there wasn't a recalibration routine for them.

I find it just slightly difficult to understand why (1) the only touchscreen systems I'm aware of that "slip out of sync" are voting machines, and (2) why, when they "slip out of sync," they never slip toward flipping Republican votes to Democratic candidates.

[rzemanfl]

13. This is bullshit. Do people who register for wedding gifts on

touchscreens get splitting mauls, grease guns, Depends undergarmets and rinsed gravel as gifts?

[elehhhhna]

15. rofl

[jmowreader]

34. Only if they register for them

This is no shit: we have a Wedding Registry.

Yes, folks, you can register your wedding at Home Fucking Depot.

Anyway, someone came in and registered, and all they wanted was stuff for the backyard, including a skid of pea pebbles.

[rzemanfl]

35. Takes all kinds, I bet that this was not a first marriage. n/t

[Justitia]

11. Amazing how these "glitches" are always in the repubs favor, isn't it? -eom

[porphyrian]

12. It's not all of Florida.

Leon county has a more secure vote than half of the country. Just document everything, and vote.

[AndyTiedye]

14. Why Does It Always Slip Out of Calibration In Favor of the REPUBLICAN?

THEY ARE DOING IT AGAIN!

[sandnsea]

18. It goes the other way too

http://www.votersunite.org/info/content/mess-up_121604.asp

[The Count]

27. But not in the governor race it seems. There, the "glitches" go one way

only. How can they still be called "glitches"

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. The exception that proves the rule.

If you were going to steal the vote with the machines, and KNEW there were going to be complaints by the hundreds about votes being switched to your party from the other party, wouldn't you arrange to have at least a couple machine flip the opposite way just so you could say "but it goes both ways'?

the the flips being 20 to 1 favoring one party instead of equal chance 50/50, wouldn't that indicate deliberate fraud?

[sandnsea]

31. Good enough

But it is wrong to say the votes NEVER go the other way, and also easier to just argue the simple fact that this should not be happening AT ALL. The touch screen wedding registries is the perfect example. There's no reason these machines shouldn't work right, every single time.

[kster]

21. More to the point, THEY ARE BEING ALLOWED TO DO IT AGAIN

As the DEM pOLITICIANS REMAIN SILENT!

[Gregorian]

19. ROVE'S MATH

I honestly think he was referring to exit polls. But this is perhaps even worse.

[lpbk2713]

20. So maybe Katherine Harris isn't nuts after all?

Did she know all along that she would win no matter what?


Might be that she still has a few contacts at Diebold even if the Florida GOP did write her off long ago.

[upi402]

42. Good point

10,000,000 points actually

[immoderate]

23. I'll be voting in Broward.

:scared:

--IMM

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I'd side with the "bring your video camera" crowd. nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. Some one needs to take pictures of these screens

You can even use your cell phone.

The pictures need to be posted on the Internet asap, in order to be able to prove these allegations.

[Justitia]

28. That's a very good idea. A picture is worth 1000 words. -eom

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. So when they finally "fix" the visible problem, we will accept the

vote count without a verifiable paper trail? The machines can be programmed to flip a vote without any visible indication that its been flipped. A line of code that specifies "every 5th vote for x will record as a vote for y". And you'd never know it.

Hand counted paper ballots is the ONLY way to go.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. I'm talking about right now

If the screens are flipping votes, the world needs to see it.

It's the first step to getting rid of the machines.

[bdamomma]

46. instead of throwing tea, lets get rid of these machines. this should

been taken care of long before this.

[DaveJ]

36. Remember many cell phones record video too... n/t

[onethatcares]

37. I voted today in Pinellas Cty,

it was very slow at the polling place, the ladies at the tables were happy to see a live body. My vote went according to my wishes, but on leaving, I said the only thing missing is a paper trail, they both giggled a little bit.

[ima_sinnic]

38. oh for #*% sake--why the #%&* can't we just use a paper & pencil?

sheesh, it is SO hard to put check marks next to a name! How the (*#% did people vote for more than 200 years in this country before computers were invented?

All these glitches happened in 2004 and were documented--but has that caused any of these dumbass counties to get rid of the goddam things?

In Alachua County I will be voting on Opti-Scan eqpt --since Alachua Cty is known to be heavily blue, and also since the Election Commissioner here is aware of and agrees about e-voting, I don't think they #%(* around with the vote.

[eridani]

39. All Dems better be ready to contest this one--

--and I mean EVEN IF THEY WIN. I love the response of Clint Curtis when he refused to declare victory based on projections. He said that he owed all the voters the chance to have their votes counted before declaring victory.

[flyarm]

40. I watched Clint Curtis flip votes and no one could ever tell it was done..

he showed a four point ( dot ) area on the screen and he said if you touched anywhere in that box, anywhere... the vote could go to a rethug or anyone the machines were programmed to go to..and no one would ever be aware of it..you could think you voted one way but the machine internally would record it the way it was programned..and the box could be moved anywhere n the screen and if your hand touched in that area..it would register how it was programed...

truely frightening..

but ...that should not discourage dems and indy's from voting..if we have such high numbers of voters..it would be too obvious of a steal..and they will be in a heap of trouble folks..so get everyone you know to vote and to the polls..we need heavy numbers!!

fly

[Mr_Spock]

41. "misaligned" WHAT????!! Were these machines designed by morons?

This will tend to work against both parties, but there is NO excuse for such a fucking shitty design. It needs to be "calibrated"? WHAT?? Are they fucking insane?

[bdamomma]

43. these problems with voting machines should have been taken care

in 2004, this is absolutely ridiculous, these guys are that desperate that they will do anything to hold power, I hope they truly get caught with the voting manipulation. I think paper ballots are the only way.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. "it's not uncommon for screens on heavily used machines...

...to slip out of sync"

Well then WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY CERTIFIED FOR PEOPLE TO VOTE ON THEM???

[mainegreen]

49. Recalibration my ass. What are these programmers: Elbonians?

If software needs 'recalibration' then you need to FIRE ALL YOUR MORONIC PROGRAMMERS!
Jesus H Christ, each of these machines has a load of 1 PERSON. Software that can't handle such a load running one application is an abomination.

:banghead:

[reprehensor]

50. Disgusting.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

[wiggs]

51. There's going to be chaos, confusion, outrage, election nullification....

....so dems ought to be reminding everyone NOW that they pushed for election reform in 2005 and dc pugs didn't want to be a part of it. So that fingers will be pointed in the right direction on November 8....

Didn't Conyers march to the WH with reams of petitions calling for election reform? Let's have the pictures out there on Olbermann and Dodd!

[stepnw1f]

52. In Favor of Republicans again..... (nt)

[hedgehog]

54. Do these machines print out a paper copy, and if so, are those

ballots collectd to support a recount?

[lostnotforgotten]

55. Reported Exact Same Behavior In 2004

When I worked as an election clerk for Dallas County TX.

We were using ES&S voting machines.

Voters would select straight Dem ticket and votes would be flipped to all Repugs on the review screen.

Reported problem to the Dem party - no action.

Reported problem to major Dem candidate - no action.

Obvious conclusion - no one cared so the problem still exists.

[sutz12]

56. "Slip out of sync" is an ANALOG term....

Digital devices don't have those sorts of errors.

It has always sounded to me that these machines were built out of surplus 80's equipment they had laying around, and programmed with some simpleton BASIC code. It's that "lowest bidder" mentality, with no interest in quality.

The kind of glitches you see reported are astounding to anyone with any basic knowledge of technology.

The lack of accountability is also just astounding. The comparisons to ATMs and cash registers are spot on. There is absolutely no excuse for these kinds of errors in the 21st century. I have to believe they are basically intentional. After all, voter suppression always favors the Republicans. The only way they attained their "majorities" was to suppress the vote and rig the elections.