Let me tell you how DU pisses me off!

[Earth_First]

You want to know what really bothers me about some of you folks? The "it's-already-in-the-works-anyways-so-why-bother" defeatists. It really discourages those of us who have sacrificed work schedules, social lives, and time with our families over the past several weeks and month to ensure that we do ALL THAT WE CAN in order to turn 2006 around.

Yet, there is a small contingency, vocal contingency, that seems to have taken on a very piss poor attitude and given up from the get go. It's a Diebold defeat already so fu*k it! My question to these folks is: have you gotten past arm-chair politics?

Have you hit the pavement? Have you dialed more pages of call-sheets that you'd care to remember? Has it become routine yet? Will you simply sit at your PC on 11/7 and watch election results stroll in?

Or have you given up.

Please. Step aside, you're a bystander.

/end rant.

[ClassWarrior]

1. They're trolls.

Or pitiful.

Thank you for all of your hard work.

Never Give Up.

[Earth_First]

4. It's incredible however...

that some of the concerned have thousands of posts over years of time.

That is what bothers me.

[ClassWarrior]

8. Understood.

We can't be sidelined by them now, though. After the 7th, we continue the fight for election reform.

B-):thumbsup:

NGU.

[BeFree]

30. Working to protect the vote

..is an ongoing and continous exercise.

Did you know Dems could take as many as 59 house seats? Yep. So says Rothenberg.

Thursday, October 26, 2006
How High the Wave? Don’t Just Think 1994; Think 1974, 1958, 1982
By Stuart Rothenberg

<snip>
The national political environment currently is worse than it was in 1994, when the Democrats lost 52 House seats, eight Senate seats and 10 governorships, and when Republicans won GOP control of the House for the first time in decades.

<snip>

With the national environment being as it is - and given the last round of redistricting, which limits possible Democratic gains - Republicans probably are at risk to lose as few as 45 seats and as many as 60 seats, based on historical results. Given how the national mood compares to previous wave years and to the GOP’s 15-seat House majority, Democratic gains almost certainly would fall to the upper end of that range.

[necso]

20. Trolls can be decomposed into three class(less)es:

witting, unwitting... witless.

And their presence here is just one facet of a much larger, long-running and constantly-ongoing attempt to manipulate and fool people; exploit and drive them; distract and disorient them; control their focus and "knowledge", etc; etc.

...

And there's a time to express one's concerns -- and a time to keep them to oneself. (In particular, good unity, cohesion and message-discipline are very important now.)

Of course, the latter stricture (at least) is a little-enough-recognized one in a culture where so many individuals seem to think that it's all about them -- all of the time.

[nashville_brook]

76. gee, hard to believe there might be a difference of opinion here

i'm working the fraud angle and i don't appreciate your broad-brushing me as a troll.

[New Earth]

18. i disagree with that

a lot of people just don't want to feel hurt again. i'm one of them. i don't consider myself having a 'defeatist attitude', but i'm not exactly about to be 100% positive. the shit that went on after the '04 election was painful for a lot of people so they are just being cautious. you should know that since you were there a lot back then to witness it all (ERD forum).

i'm sure there are some people who might be trying to get everyone to 'give up' and not go vote, but not all of them.

If some people are feeling more positive about it while others are feeling negative, it's better to help eachother try to feel better and stick together, not split up and fight with eachother. that defeats the entire purpose of community....

[ClassWarrior]

29. I understand that. But there's a difference between being cautious and wary...

...and downright defeatism. I remember you from the Election 2004 forum, and I don't think you - as concerned as I know you are - would ever engage in "done-deal" defeatism.

NGU.

[freeplessinseattle]

67. a cry for help is one thing

I can get that, but the whole misery loves company theme running through these threads is helping no one feel better, including the poster. seriously, expecting disappointment is not a magical protector of emotions, the best way is to find a good counselor to help you deal with emotions that will be there regardless. (this is coming from a counseling student so I'm not just talking out of my ass).

[elehhhhna]

37. Class Warrior: DING DING YOU WIN!

Hammer, nail. Nail, hammer.

[KoKo]

39. Voting Rights Activists on this Site have worked their Butts off since

"Selection 2000" to try to secure ALL OUR VOTES. To diss those who've worked so hard and some who've given up their health to do it here by calling them "Defeatists" is really low down and dirty. I have to think that you posted in frustration not knowing much about the background and history of many DU'ers that you would say such a thing.

Peace,
koko

[ClassWarrior]

64. And I'm one of them. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Point proven.

NGU.

[nashville_brook]

77. word. thanks KoKo for some much needed sanity

inserted into this witch hunt.

[tom_paine]

46. Not all trolls. Some of us are longstanding DUers & ARE working and donating.

But that does not change the basic facts of the situation. In my case anyway, it's not defeatism, it's REALITY.

And, oh God, if I am proven wrong, what a happy day it will be.

And on "Election" Day, which I have taken off to participate in Democratic GOTV efforts, I will keep my mouth shut with any demoralizing talk and do the job to the best of my ability.

But when I come home after a long hard day of work, as so many of us on DU will that evening, I will go to sleep without even looking at the TV.

Why? Again let me preface that I hope and pray I am mistaken, but I will be going to sleep straightaway because the TV show that's on is a Rigged Reality, boring and predictable.

Further, I saw the same dumb reality TV show in November 2000, 2002, and 2004. This one is a rerun.

[joeunderdog]

59. Ditto, ditto, ditto. Stolen elections, yes. Give up, no.

Denial is dangerous, and pretending that eVoting and other forms of electoral screwings don't and won't go on is just foolish. Does that mean we're saying "fuck it?" Not at all.

I'm giving money and time to take advantage of every possible edge we can get to neutralize the theivery of the RW crooks who are trying for their third or fourth theft in 6 years. I maintain my right to express openly the horrible reality of the criminal element we are up against. Doesn't make me a whiner or a defeatist by any reasonable stretch.

The elephant is in the room, in the office and out for blood. No sense in denying it.

[Art_from_Ark]

60. I know how you feel

The 2002 Senatorial polls, for example, had Democrats up in lots of races, some by several percentage points. But no exit polls were taken that year, because the 2000 exit polls had been "so wrong". Lo and behold, of the new Democratic challengers who were predicted to win, only one did-- Mark Pryor of Arkansas-- but he has been a disappointment, to say the least.

Call me pessimistic about this election. It is NOT in the bag. But I still VOTED. And I will be more than happy to treat my friends to a round of their favorite beverage if the Democrats kick Republican butt.

[springhill]

63. Bullshit!

I am not a troll, and I have been warning about the chances of a stolen election since the last stolen election. God, why don't you just stick your head in the sand a little deeper; that will do the trick. And by the way, I have voted, I have canvased to get people to vote, because just in case I am wrong, which I hope to God I am, there will be a strong turnout.

Having said that, there are many people who do not have the time to canvas and do the work that some of us do, but that does not mean that they don't deserve a fair election. It is our right. And how many elections are we going to have to go through worrying about the chances of it being hacked. Something needs to be done to get rid of the non-transparency, but I'll be damned if I know how to go about it. When you figure it out, let me know.

[Xenotime]

74. kick 'em!

[NavyDavy]

2. I agree 100%.....I think alot are "concerned trolls"

[undeterred]

3. I feel the same way.

I am spending 20 hours a week on a campaign in addition to working a full time job which requires driving 106 miles a day. I come to DU to get information and it seems like so many people are arguing with each other, poll watching, Kerry bashing, or some such other sport instead of working to elect more Democrats while the timing is right.

[BelgianMadCow]

13. I got terribly frustrated after some OPs on that exact matter stayed

stone cold. Like these :
Iraqi genocide. Torture state. Corruption. Election 06. FOCUS!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2470509

I have "concluded" there are a number of activists on DU, and a number or truly critical thinkers and researchers, but the majority isn't one of either.

Not a slam, I consider myself part of that majority.

[Poll_Blind]

5. "Some DU users" migth be a better choice of words. n/t

PB

[Earth_First]

6. Touche!

Not this one.

[shanti]

7. i wouldn't necessarily call them trolls

unless they are advocating NOT voting. but you must realize that we have been conditioned over the past 6 years to expect irregularities. :shrug:

[GreenArrow]

19. I wouldn't call most of them trolls either; I'd call them CAUTIOUS

Once bitten, twice shy. I have yet to see a single post to the effect that "it's all over, why bother to even vote". Not one. Given the last two elections, given the last six years, I think it's foolish to assume that the Democrats have this one in the bag. They should, granted, but I'm assuming nothing.

[New Earth]

22. right...

i don't see anyone flat out saying give up. i think people are just concerned and deeply affected by the last few elections. i'm one of them, but i'm smart enough not to start a thread about it :/

[annabanana]

27. they have PTSD from '04

It's a regrettable side effect of getting blindsided..

[robinlynne]

9. But who says give up? We can never give up. We have to pound the

pavements, work for election protection, (GOTV and MSIC-make sure it counts),and we still have to discuss what to do about the theft, because republican election fraud is not an IF or MAYBE scenario.

[Individualist]

17. Good question

I haven't seen any posts where someone says "why bother". There are many posts discussing vote stealing. To ignore the fact that it's happening is foolish. The implication that these discussions translate to "why bother" is blatantly wrong.

[Donkeykick]

10. Well...

during 2004, I practically lived at my Democratic headquarters, while I was unemployed. But now I have a job and unfortunately can not do as much as I did in 04. I still have volunteered for a few hours on certain days stuffing bags and phone banking.

[patrice]

11. Self-fulfilling prophecy is poison.

I find those kinds of people really frustrating too!

Turn them into 0s, by not reacting to them in any way shape or form. Make them nothing.

[Earth_First]

15. I can assure you that it is not self-fulfilling prophecy...

Sometimes a little motivation is needed to galvanize an individual.

Perhaps it's not exactly textbook motivational technique, however this is just all too important to myself and many others to watch our efforts squandered by those on the sidelines.

We're all a little frustrated, burnt out, and stark raving mad. I chalk this up as being all of the above.

[BeFree]

25. So, instead of working

You are here bashing imaginary trolls?

Haven't you something better to do? Like finding a way to make it seem like your trolls are wrong... that there is nothing to worry about? Find facts that say the election can't be stolen, that is the best way to defeat the trolls.... or to help those who are discouraged to gain courage.

[nashville_brook]

80. Earth_First creates giant burning straw man

we could just as easily call E_F a troll for undermining those working for a FAIR election.


but we don't. we get the word out and ignore these attacks. we aren't attacking fraud-debunking posters -- they are attacking US! calling us TROLLS!

talk about divisive.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. You've gotten onto the Greatest Page, my dear Earth_First...

Yours is the message of strength and resolve that we all need to hear...

K&R

[RoyGBiv]

14. Good rant ...

And unfortunately I have to disagree a bit on the point people make about them all being trolls. Not all of them are. Some are just what you say, arm-chair warriors, bystanders who would rather complain and resign than actually do anything.

[gaspee]

16. hmmm

I haven't posted anything negative but your post has got me thinking. I'm one of the concerned. I think they stole elections in 2000, 2002, 2004 and 2006 and very well could likely do it again.

I've chosen to express my concern by working my ass off on the only race in my state that is close and that's Chafee/Whitehouse. I'm doing my damndest to make sure we're far enough ahead that it *can't* be stolen. That's how I'm expressing my concern. But I'm still worried. These people are scum who will do ANYTHING for money and power.

I'm firmly in the "wellstone's accident was no accident" camp. I really do believe these people wouldn't stop at killing to keep their power. They are sociopaths who care nothing for anyone but themselves. We should all be worried and vigilant.

I'm sick with concern, but I'm working hard on not letting them get away with it again.

[lapfog_1]

21. The "concern trolls" and some defeatists

will say "why bother, they have already stolen it again"... to which I reply



"They cannot steal what we indifferently give away"

Let's MAKE them steal it then, and show them for the thieving bastards that they really are!

[eridani]

23. I'm doorbelling 2 precincts besides mine

And yes, I still think that we aren't worth shit unless we defend our own voters in states where they are vulnerable to vote suppression and electronic theft.

[INdemo]

24. You have to understand that we are loaded down with Trolls

and they have a unique way of slipping in the back door.

[femrap]

26. I don't think there is a good excuse for any

DUer NOT to do something to help a Dem get elected. Period.

I was out in the rain today going door to door informing people of the economic conditions in Ohio.

As John Edwards said, this Election is crucial. CRUCIAL. We all must do something...even if it takes us outside of our comfort level. Consider living without Democracy...now THAT is uncomfortable!

[roamer65]

28. Don't forget a high impact thing you can do...

Go get campaign signs and put them in high traffic areas. It gets name recognition for Dems who don't have large campaign budgets.

[stillcool]

31. You know what really pisses me off?

It's people that think their way is the only way...or the one I'm most guilty of...that there opinion is the one that matters. We are all part of this thing...and we all have our place in it..or we wouldn't be here. It is not for me to tell you how to think, or what to do. We are all witnesses to this time in life...circles bouncing off each other, changing the direction of our course oh so slightly, bettering our understanding of where we are. Above all what pisses me off is those that hate the sinner but don't mind the sin.

[bobbolink]

33. AMEN! Divisiveness sux!

[bobbolink]

32. OH HELL! What the fuck makes you think that those who see reality

aren't ALSO WORKING THEIR BUTTS OFF, JUST AS MUCH OR MORE AS YOU???

Some of us can do both, yanno.

Stop with this shitty divisiveness!

BASTA!

[lala_rawraw]

34. There is no serious democrat, progressive or left

leaning person who for a moment will let this election be lost, come hell or high water. we can be on guard that they will attempt fraud, but that is more reason to push toward victory. i think anyone who is saying 'why bother' is getting paid by the opposition or is very lonely and cannot locate their blow-up doll. so don't worry about it too much:)

[nashville_brook]

73. those of us who work the fraud angle are getting

THIS bullshit response from people like Earth_First. they are mis-directing the discussion. just because we post on Election Reform issues we are being painted as anti-Dem.

it's embarrassing.

[Mister Ed]

35. I keep hearing about the "why-bother" threads but I haven't seen them yet.

Anybody have some links to 'em?

Thanks.

[lonestarnot]

36. Dito. I'd like to see them too.

[GreenArrow]

40. they don't exist

.

[BlooInBloo]

45. Utter ignorance combined with utter genius....

... leads to the biggest problem with this country: stupid fucking citizens.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2469384

There are/have been lots. This is just the one I recalled off the top of my head. If you actually care about the truth, you're welcome to search and find more.

[Mister Ed]

50. Wow. That post you've linked to really is a downer!

Whether these authors are trolls or just Democratic Eeyores, I reckon the best thing to do is ignore them. We have work to do. And we will bother to do it.

I'm proud to say that most on DU do bother. Some bother to pound the pavement for Democratic candidates. Some bother to work to help save the environment. Some bother to fight for gay rights (which is to say, human rights). And some bother to expose and prevent electoral theft, whether it's accomplished by the Jim-Crow voter-suppression tactics that are out in plain sight or by less obvious means. We need all of 'em, and my hat's off to all of 'em.

[BlooInBloo]

51. And I treated it as such.... My proverbial hat joins yours - cheers!

[GreenArrow]

52. does not apply

I repeat, I have yet to see one post that advocated not voting.

I've seen lots of posts, such as the one you linked, that expressed hopelessness, frustration, doubt, fear; others that concerned themselves with the Specifics of fraud; i.e. voter purges, Diebold, etc., but not one that implored people to stay home and not bother voting.

That doesn't mean posts like that don't exist -- it means I have not seen them, and even if I did, I'd consider them the exception rather than the rule, nor would any such posts discourage people from heading to the polls in great multitudes.

You can approach this election however you like, but I prefer to do my celebrating after the game is over. The Republicans have shown over the last three elections that they are not above using every trick in the book (and some that aren't) to win. There's no reason to believe that won't try to do the same again.

I'd love to have the absolute certainty that the Republican vampires are going to get stakes driven through their hearts, but I don't. In a fair election, that's what would happen, and we'll have a better idea this time next week just how fair these elections will have been.

[BlooInBloo]

53. LOL! Weakest attempt at mendacity EVER. D+ for you.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Art_from_Ark]

61. The original poster in your link was pessimistic

and chose a regrettable title for his/her thread, but nearly every poster after that reaffirmed their commitment to voting and not giving up.

[tom_paine]

69. Um, I don't see the why bother part?

In fact, the response to electoral theft should be twofold:

1) VOTE!!!

2) Investigate, investigate, investigate.

[tom_paine]

47. Good point. I have never seen one, either.

[Mr_Spock]

49. I can recall six off the top of my head

Some of the people are shot down and back off - I know a lot of us are discouraging these sorts of posts.

Trust me, there were quite a few yesterday...

[WilliamPitt]

71. Here

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22THE+FIX+IS+IN+site:www.democraticunderground.com&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=TSHA,TSHA:2005-19,TSHA:en&start=0&sa=N

[nashville_brook]

75. if you actually inspect those threads...

they aren't telling anyone to stay away from the polls... in fact, many of them are REPORTING on potential fraud that is already happening as is the case in Broward County Florida.

do you not think that information should be out there -- if for no other reason than to get people to double and triple check their choices?

[NanceGreggs]

38. Well said, Earth_First ...

K & R!

(I was about to launch on a rant of my own on this topic, but I've already done so - and made my position on this topic clear.)

I would only add a salute to all of you who are devoting time, effort and money to the cause!

:patriot: :toast: :yourock:

[ddeclue]

41. Free GOTV lists for Central Florida Dems

Hey if you are a registered Democrat living in one of the following counties and would like to do GOTV phone banking, please send an email to me with your name and phone (so I can call back and verify that you are not a Republican troll) and I can email you a free phone bank list for your area to call..

Alternatively, you can sign up on the Davis campaign website to use their free VIVA system to do GOTV calls.

The Central Florida counties I have lists for:

Orange
Seminole
Osceola
Brevard
Volusia
Polk
Charlotte
Sumter
Lake
Marion

I also have much less complete lists for Broward and Palm Beach.

Send your email to:
[e-mail]

[ddeclue]

70. nt

[Blackthorn]

42. I think you are mischaracterising a large portion of the so-called "naysayers"

I have only seen 2 posts here advocating that a win in November is impossible and I'm yet to see ANYONE advocate not voting on the 7th. A lot of people here are aware of how serious the Diebold problem is and a few of those people feel a real helplessness that they feel the need to express.

Concerns about Diebold DOES NOT EQUAL giving up or advocating non-voting. Please stop reading more than what people write.

[sweetheart]

43. I'll be your troll this thread.

Since the fairness doctrine was revoked,
not a media source can be respected as portraying anything but a spin,
we'll see how the election counts out.

Thank you for living your life how you feel you should live it.

Thank you for respecting how other people live theirs.

The wars leave me entirely cynical, especially the drugs war,
as the dems have been the enemy as much as the pukes, not fair i know,
but in terms of supporting the status quo, drugs warriors who cower
before this malicious media are the norm.

And this malicious media that portrays all persons who disagree as
trolls or slimeball ignorants, betrays the very conscience of a
democracy, that every citizen bears a holy conscience, and is speaking
up in public to share their higher instinct of wanting to engage in a
mysterious world constructively, it doesn't make uz all democratic
party operatives.

We all contribute in the ways we do, and even the evil troll asshole
who everyone despises serves as a foil to show us our judgement and
arrogance.

I cast my ballot weeks ago by post, "working families" hillary/nadler,
who i support for no rational reason, given that the government's
legislation programme is entirely not dealing with the public's issues.

1. universal health insurance
2. end the drugs war
3. get the army home from too much deployment abroad
4. End the nuclear stockpiling and militarism

Will any of these things happen if i spent the next 365 days a year
for the next 10 years working for them? Probably not. Elites are
in charge with their adgenda, and i honestly believe my vote does not
count. I must be that evil bystander, sorry.

[blondeatlast]

44. Word. Never give up.

And thank you--and everyone else--for keeping their eyes on the prize...

Our wonderful nation.

[Mr_Spock]

48. Yep, this is no time for defeatists!

Anybody trying to discourage Dems from voting this late in the game should be temporarily banned - like a one-week suspension until the election is over.

Well, I think it's a good idea anyway :D

[Odin2005]

54. Fatalism sucks, period.

We must fight to the bitter end.

[T Town Jake]

56. Most of the "all elections are stolen" contingent around here are either...

...trolls, or belong to that category of internet poster who simply LIVES for the intrigue of the manifold conspiracies they constantly imagine are unfolding around them. If once given irrefutable proof that that such conspiracies are largely the figments of their own imaginations, they quickly insist that the "proof" itself is part of the larger web of "lies" they fantasize are constantly being spun around them...

I wouldn't bother - or deign - to reply to one of their silly threads, were I you.

[mirandapriestly]

58. Blanket and untrue generalizations about other DUers

are far more damaging than people who are wary of election fraud.

[mirandapriestly]

57. Show me one post where someone says "why bother?"

You are saying how much something "pisses you off" that doesn't even exist. Let's pretend that election fraud doesn't exist so we can be shocked AGAIN when it happens. Naivete doesn't get anyone anywhere.

[LSK]

62. thanks, I have written a similar rant - sorta

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x29562

[Robbien]

65. Recommended. If I could I would recommend it twice

For its truthy goodness.

:thumbsup:

[freeplessinseattle]

66. oh boy do I hear you! thank you for some sanity!

It blows my mind how many people are showing how weak and lazy they are. there can be no point to their posts besides trying to either demoralize us or help justify their own laziness. how many doomsday threads do we need per day? one a day is too much!

[wiley]

68. Unless every person I've done outreach to has flat out lied,

the only defeatists here are not members of the Democratic Party, or they are paid interference runners and special-ops forces that are easily ignored. They don't step aside. They are like body crabs that keep coming back. Douse them with their own toxic swill enough and they die out, or beat or torture their weaker members and get caught.

[On the Road]

72. People Need to Remember Than a Hundred Years Ago,

political machines in many US cities had a strangehold on the political process and stayed in power through corruption, patronage, and massive voting fraud. They were all eventually defeated. The Republicans are pikers compared to Tammany Hall.

[deaniac21]

78. NOTHING is going to stop this L A N D S L I D E ! ! ! !

[survivor999]

79. Ignore them....

The only thing it's already in the works is time itself.