Kerry's mispeak was dead on. If you have no options in life, you often end up a grunt because

[zonkers]

you go for the tuition money the service gives you.

[bluestateguy]

1. That may be true

But were not supposed to talk about that.

[zonkers]

5. MSM has Dems in a bind. As long as Kerry keeps defending remark and other

Dem candidates keep asking for Kerry to apologize, it stays in the news cycle more than it should. I hate being paranoid but if Republicans needed a fake cause to attribute its diebold delivered underdog victory, they have just found it.

[Virginia Dare]

2. I agree, even if that's what he said, which apparently he

didn't, how is it an insult? An inconvenient truth maybe, but facts is facts.

We are creating a "military class" of people in our society, much like the Romans and the British did to keep their empires viable.

Scary? Yes. Insulting? No.

[HereSince1628]

8. Another reality is that speakers often never recognize their insults.

It's sort of the nature of being blind to one's own prejudices. Everyone, including me is like this to some extent. The speaker thinks he's talking about reality or just telling a joke. The reciever doesn't take it that way.

This phenoomenon is why men don't "get" feminism.
This is why rich people don't "get" poor people.

Bigotry is sensed by folks whose feelings are already raw.

People who aren't college educated often think they are looked down upon, because they are often exposed to being looked down upon.

The R's make a lot of hay with the working class by claimiing Dem's are educated smug elitists who don't understand their values. This whole thing is unfortunate and I believe unintended by Kerry, but it's being exploited to the hilt, because it resonates with that stereotype of Liberal Democrats from Massachusetts.

[Hulsey13]

3. Incorrect use of logic.

This is what I think you are saying:
If you have no options in life, you often end up a grunt.
Therefore, all grunts had no options in life.

But that is incorrect logical reasoning.

It may be more correct to say this:
If you have no options in life, you often end up a grunt.
If you have options in life, you may choose to be a grunt.
Therefore, not all grunts were without options.

And this is not just about semantics. This is about honoring and respecting those who had options, who thought long and hard about them, and made the decision to join the military.

John Hulsey
Proud Marine
1985-1989

[uppityperson]

10. conclusion is good, assumed second statement wrong.

I am agreeing with what you say, think that people who are upset about this are assuming your second statement, or rather that Kerry said the incorrect logical reasoning.


Indeed, some people enlist for benefits, esp college, some enlist otherwise. Some have options, some not. A long hard thinking to join the military was done by those with and those without options.

[zonkers]

15. Hulsey, I reread my most and nowhere did I say that all grunts have no options in life

like you suggest. I would never say that. I come from a family of military service. I am thankful that many like you think long and hard and decide to serve the country for reasons besides tution.

My post only stated the that many often choose to enlist in exchange for an education or the money for an education that they have no way of achieving otherwise, which is a generally accepted truth.

[Hulsey13]

18. Fair enough.

I, too, reread your post and I have to agree with you. Your post did NOT add the second part of my logic argument.

Like someone else in this thread wrote, I know that we tend to see things from our own perspective, and we see offense where none may be intended. I certainly did here. This issue just riles me so, because it is complex. Yes, we need to address issues of poverty and opportunity in this country, so young men and women have choices. But we also need to recognize that military service is an honorable and sacrificing choice.

You did not say otherwise, and I apologize.

[katamaran]

4. I had a shouting match about this with a coworker today

I had a shouting match about this with a coworker today. We got into the discussion about Kerry's statement and the unfortunate reality of many people who serve in the military...they have no other school or career options, and see the military as both a way to escape and to possible elevate themselves. Notice I said MANY and not MOST or ALL. I couldn't convince him of that. He believes that only a few people join the military because they have no other options. He started blabbering about "everyone has other options...stop insulting the troops by calling them losers!"

Of course, his opinion is rather skewed by the fact that his father, uncle and grandfather all went to West Point and that his dad is a general. Their family has never known what it's like for grunts on the ground making less than $20K a year trying to scrape by in a war zone. He also believes that only 10% of people in Vietnam were drafted, and that everyone joined because it was the right thing to do.

Sheesh.

[Hulsey13]

7. Yikes.

Bless you for trying to discuss this at all with this person.

I find it ironic that he would go to the "... by calling them losers" statement. Why is it that we assume someone with limited options is a loser? (Ok, bear with me, because I think this may drift into semantics.) But having limited options does not make someone a loser. Not making the most of whatever option(s) you have is what can make you a loser.

Of course, from what you describe, all of these subtle nuances would be lost on your co-worker.

[atreides1]

6. Very true

I don't recall my recruiter giving a big speech about loving my country, defending democracy, or being a true patriot or sacrificing life and limb for the whims of the government.

What I do remember were the selling points, like being able to save to go to college, a steady job with good pay and potential for upward mobility, and retirement at the end of 20 years of service.

Those are still the selling points today, and with less access to college based on policies of this
administration and its henchmen, and most jobs that require you to say "would you like fries with that", most kids enlist to get ahead, not lose an arm or a leg.

Do any veterans, retirees, or current active duty military here at DU recall your recruiter telling you that you could die, or that the pile of hamburger near you was once your buddy?

[Hulsey13]

9. Experience with a Marine recruiter.

My recruiter kept showing me photos of young Marines posing with hot chicks in foreign lands. Obviously, he didn't know that I was gay and looking more at the Marines in the pictures. -laughing-

I knew what I was getting into as a Marine, though. It was 1985, and the Marine bombing at Beirut was still very much a story in the news. I had no illusions about the Marine Corps being a "vacationer's romp across the globe." I also suspect that the Marine Corps was different in its recruiting. The tougher it sounded, the more exclusive it seemed, and the more sacrifice to join, the more we were all clamoring to get in.

And today's Marine recruits definitely know what is ahead of them. They are going to war in Iraq. And they know it. But still they sign up. Somehow, magically, they are better than those in government who are supposed to watch out for them.

Oh, and one other thing. I am still proud today of my four years in the Marine Corps.

[Virginia Dare]

11. Welcome to DU!!!..

and thanks for your service to our country!!!

:patriot:

[atreides1]

12. 13 years United States Army

I'm proud of my service, and when I enlisted the AVF was still in its infancy. But having an interest in history, being a member of the Civil Air Patrol, and coming from a family that had served from WWII to Vietnam I knew what the military was about.

While the recruits today may know what 'might' be ahead of them, I still say that all of the recruiters don't show pictures of dead troops or flag draped coffins, which would tell the whole
story.

I also volunteered for Desert Storm, and my unit wasn't even there.

[WI_DEM]

13. That's true, but that wasn't his point

his point was that if you are uneducated you can end up botching us into a war with Iraq.

[zonkers]

16. Uh,I know it wasn't his intended point. But I am pointing out the irony that if his words were

truly taken at their face value (without Republicans twist or by JK's explanation of them) they could be distilled into something as simple as "In the USA, have-nots often become cannon fodder".

[oasis]

14. Jessica Lynch signed up for the benifits and ended up in a hospital in Iraq. To

her credit, she refused to be a propaganda tool for Rove.

[Jacobin]

17. Great thing to point out at this time in the election cycle

[Democrat 4 Ever]

19. Once upon a time people joined the military for love of country,

education, and/or the opportunity of travel while serving. There was always the innate knowledge that you could be asked to fight but in years gone by - especially with reasonable attempts at diplomacy - the likelihood of a war was a distant possibility. The odds were in their favor they could serve their country without seeing battle.

Today is a completely different scenario for people who sign up. The economy sucks for middle and lower income people. Education is very expensive. Moving into a middle income life without a sheepskin (a la General Motors, steel workers, factories, etc) are a fading memory. We now, like it or not, have an economic draft. There are plenty of smart, motivated, patriotic people who join the service but I'd bet anything there are plenty of people who joined up for military services for the money and education it affords, something the rich and elite don't have to choose between.

I had this argument with a repug friend who hasn't spoken to me since I said we have an economic draft. She said I was misinformed. Her daughter and son-in-law both took advantage of ROTC funds while in college to pay for their education. How is that not economic? Her daughter bailed on her military obligation by getting a doctor to certify she wasn't able to serve due to an injured knee (her mother's words - said she faked the injury to get out) and the son-in-law went in as an officer who nows leads a group of recruiters (in fairness, he did serve with the 101st in Iraq for the first nine months of Bush's War). I don't know if the SIL would have joined the Army after college or not but he did join initially because of the funds available to pay for college and that makes it economic.

And we won't even discuss how the recruitment bonuses have skyrocketed. Ya think the Army is just doing that because they have money to burn?

[DocSavage]

20. What is the difference

between federal student loans and the GI Bill? In one of the units I was in, I was the idiot because I only had a bachlors, everyone else was working on a masters. All career, no one had to show them pictures of coffins, everyone had seen them in real time. Still, retention was very high. Being retired, IMO, what he said was insulting, what he ment was not. But he cannot just say I screwed up. I heard that he got 30-35% of the military vote 2 years ago. I bet he would get about 5% now.

BTW, my parents offered to send me to any school I wanted, cost was no object, they could afford it. I was not the only on in my boot camp co that was like that either. Were there kids from poor families, yup, but the funny thing is that alot of people do not take advantage of tuition assistance or on base classes during thier first tours. It is when they have spent 6-7 years in that they start working on thier degrees.

I agree with Imus, Get on your bike, shut up, dissapear till the 8th.