Filibuster -- Yes or No?

[Sparkly]

This isn't a definitive explanation of the two arguments (and there may be more), but...

Let's assume Alito, or someone just as bad, will be confirmed. A filibuster means the Repugs change the rules, and he gets onto the court in a different way (fitting perhaps, considering the boy who nominated him got into office in a "different way," too). The result is one more level of decline to our country -- our economy, our military, our credibility, our democracy, our security, etc. have all been brought down by this cabal, and now it's coming to the balance of powers, as well as civil rights, women's rights, worker's rights, etc. etc...

So let's assume it's going down, down, down. What are our best chances of getting back the power to restore sanity?

Argument 1: If Democrats filibuster, it will be to no effect other than changing a rule, being portrayed in the media as pitching a tantrum, and diverting time from other issues the Senate, the party, and the media would be better focused on (Abramoff, FISA, etc.). It could come back to bite the party in this year's elections.

Argument 2: If we're going down, Democrats should go down fighting. They're maligned in the media anyway, as ineffective wimps -- it'd be better if they showed some spine, made a strong statement, and brought attention to the problems with Alito. Especially while the Preznit's poll numbers are weak, it's a time to show opposition and a real distinction between the parties.

Again, I don't know every point in each argument, so add your own reasons for your vote. But assuming Alito (or someone as bad) will be confirmed, what should Democrats do?

[FSogol]

1. Stand up for something. n/t

[AuntiBush]

41. Like Convictions - Shows Honor and Leadership

[Guaranteed]

2. What's the point of having a filibuster you can't use, for

fear of losing it?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

18. They look attractive on the mantel?

To add to our collection of useless chotskies?

It's sort of becomes like the good china, sitting on a self taking up space rather than using it and taking the chance of breakage.

[Guaranteed]

19. Outstanding analogy.

:)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. Thanks! I'm in a mood tonight.

I'm off to eat pizza from the good china. :P

[shance]

3. Why are we assuming we are "going down"? How bout see VICTORY.

And don't expect anything less.

[Sparkly]

4. Mostly for the sake of argument.

Otherwise the debate is about whether or not a filibuster would be effective in stopping Alito (or someone as bad) -- and the probability is that it wouldn't be. It's always possible Democrats could stall past the 2006 elections and a new Senate, but...

If the argument is "A filibuster won't stop him anyway," I wanted to see how people felt.

[bigjohn16]

5. If not now, when? nt

[AuntiBush]

42. If not Dems, Who?

Good point.

[BillZBubb]

6. Filibuster is the only answer.

No one will vote for a Repug in November because the Democrats filibustered Alito. The fanatics who support Alito will vote Repug in any case. Most Americans don't care enough about it to have it affect their vote. It just won't be a big issue, or even a little issue by then.

Some moderates, however, will be drawn to a Democratic party that is fighting for what it believes in. That will be a refreshing change. And, our base will be energized by a filibuster. We need this fight.

Note: I don't think the Democrats will filibuster, but that's another discussion.

[uppityperson]

10. Good answer. Thanks

I agree with you and you put it well. I don't see Dems losing support by filibustering because those that hate Dems will do so no matter what. I'd like to see the Dems stand up and do this, to fight for what is right even if they don't win the battle. Perhaps this would encourage people who are not involved with politics, or don't care to vote, to get involved again. If you think you'll be screwed and no one will stand up for you and your vote won't count, why even bother? Perhaps this will get some of those people encouraged to join in again.

[bookman]

7. If not now, when? n/t

[cascadiance]

8. We now have 60 votes! :)

The real question is:

What is the cost of fillibustering, and losing, versus just allowing cloture and his nomination to pass, and how is that worse than not having even a chance of shutting him down (by fillibustering).

Because that is essentially what is being said. The cost of fillibustering and losing is greater than not having any chance at all of stopping Alito. Somehow I don't see the equation.

Somehow I think the real concern they have is that the cost of fillibustering for them and WINNING that fillibuster is something their corporate handlers don't want to allow!

[Fovea]

34. The cost of filibustering

is primarily invoking the nuclear option, which is not worth working to avoid.

If the Pugs are going to do it now, they would do it later, and making them do it now means we will be beating them with it until the elections and beyond.

Making them go nuke now means that our base will be energized and we will start showing the low voting working and middle class our commitment to them.

The downside is that the Republicans will whine that we are being obstructionist. That will hurt us very little, because what we are doing is stopping a slide into a fascism that will have to be corrected by constitutional amendments.

Better to show that we too can lob nukes to the puggies, than to act like a corps de ballet when America is on the brink of disaster.

[AtomicKitten]

37. make 'em invoke the "nuclear option"

The Dems MUST try. They MUST do this for the people that put them in office. If the a-holes are going to invoke the nuclear option, they will change the rules, and when the Dems are back in power, and that is inevitable simply by virtue of the cyclic nature of government, the Rs will live to regret it.

There is simply no other option. They MUST filibuster.

[longship]

9. Hell Yes!!

nt

[mcscajun]

11. If not now, when?

If not over this, over what? What will be left to protect?

[Fox Mulder]

12. Hell yeah filibuster!!!

[Proud2BaLiberalMom]

13. STAND AND FIGHT!

STAND AND FIGHT

OR

GO DOWN SILENTLY IN FLAMES.....?

I CHOOSE TO STAND AND FIGHT!!!!!
:headbang:

[me b zola]

14. "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

A "no" vote for confirmation unless you vote no on cloture when you know that the pukes have the majority, is meaningless. Senators who vote yes for cloture but no on the confirmation will not be able to tell their constituents that they fought to save the Constitution and the rule of law; they will be just as guilty as the pukes.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

15. If not us, then whom? If not now, then when?

Filibuster. Filibuster. Filibuster.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gato Moteado]

21. fillibuster!

gotta stand up against facism and human garbage.

[cascadiance]

24. I wonder if Abe Fortas feels that fillibusters don't change anything!

Probably wonders what it would have been like to have been chief justice...

[Sparkly]

30. This sort of "free advice" lends weight to the argument for filibuster

imho.

[Canadian Socialist]

17. I don't understand why a filibuster could be considered a bad thing

Granted, I don't know much about the ins and outs of American politics, but it seems as if the Democrats are just allowing the Republicians to roll over them, regardless of the issue. Even if the Ds don't win, at least put up a fight. Just my 2 cents CDN.
edited to add: don't you have a party whip (like we do here)? By that I mean, if the party leader says vote this way, then the whip damn well makes sure the party members vote that way. In other words, no "free" vote.

[Laelth]

20. k&r

... just in case somebody on a Senator's staff wanders by. they need to know how we feel.

-Laelth

[davidlynch]

23. This is Too Important--May Be The Door To Fascism--Must Fight n/t

[leftofthedial]

25. "cut our losses" --!!??

no filibuster means adding to our losses.

[mom cat]

26. A filibuster does not necessarily mean that the rules will be changed.

That is a separate issue and we should pressure ALL Dems and the moderate Repubs to resist a rule change. The RWingers might not win. This is an election year and they would look like greedy power mongers to the public if they changed the rules in the middle of the game.

[il_lilac]

27. Show em what we're made of

Fight for what's right! If we lose anyway, at least we can say we didn't just roll over

[ProudDad]

28. Fillibuster and WIN!

You didn't have this option....

It's been done before.

[japple]

29. Bork him! n/t

[Jim Lane]

31. Another benefit of filibustering

The filibuster won't stop Alito -- his supporters will try to invoke cloture, and, failing that, will change the rules.

In addition to the "going down fighting" point, the cloture vote would be worthwhile. Some Dems would probably vote yes on cloture. In conservative states, that vote would help them defeat challengers who'd be even worse. In more progressive states, the vote for cloture might be a rallying point for a successful primary challenge from the left.

The general idea is that forcing everyone to go on record is helpful. As others have pointed out, the mere vote against the nomination itself is much less meaningful.

[Pharaoh]

32. gggggggggggggggggg

[Coexist]

33. hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

;-)

[windbreeze]

35. Time to Fight...Filibuster...

In my book, this is the most important thing the Dems have ever had to do..They have to Stand the Hell up...and FIGHT, damn it, FIGHT...FILIBUSTER Alito's appointment...It will be too late to fight if he's appointed, and unfortunately, the real cost will be way more than one seat on the SCOTUS...

It's time we Democrats revolt against the criminals who are out to destroy our way of life, our Constitution and our Democracy itself....it's our turn to deliver a little shock and awe...!!
windbreeze

[hootinholler]

36. Who's going down?

N!G!U!

-Hoot

[unkachuck]

38. filibuster NOW....

....show the repugs you're not what we say you are....

[Zinfandel]

39. Absolutely fucking FILIBUSTER!!!!!!

[AuntiBush]

40. Yes!

#2

[SoCalDemGrrl]

43. FIGHT --- FIGHT-- FIGHT

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. YES! n/t

[Totally Committed]

45. As the saying goes...

"It's better to die standing up than to live on your knees."

Filibuster!!!!!!!!!

TC

[melissinha]

46. Great Argument #2

if they showed some spine, made a strong statement, and brought attention to the problems with Alito. Especially while the Preznit's poll numbers are weak, it's a time to show opposition and a real distinction between the parties.