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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 05:56 PM
Original message
When did "Feminist" become a pejorative?
For me, Feminism has always been about equality. Simply, and completely.

Yet - ask any woman in a management position if she is a feminist, and she will most likely say no.

WTF gives?
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. I guess people associate
feminism with activism, and perhaps they don't consider themselves activists if they simply believe in equality for the sexes? (A guess on my part, not a definitive answer.)

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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Probably back in the late 70's and the ERA amendment thing...
throughout the 80's - the right did a decent job of equating "feminist" with "man-hating bull-dyke" - that's why a lot of women deny that they're feminists.

:shrug:
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I was going to say about 40 years ago.
Betty Freidan knew...
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. You've got a few years on me...
;-)
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. But many who bash the ERA never actually read it
It was a simple ammendment - just equality based on gender and orientation.

If we would have passed it then (with a Dem prez and Dem congress remember) we wouldn't have half the problems we do today.

RvWade would be codified, Gay Marriage would be commonplace and the glass ceiling would at least have a few cracks.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's always been that way. To become equal, you must fight and
win. Didn't go over with the "opposition" when all us females started winning.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. 'bout the same time Liberal or Democrat did...
:hi:
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. exactly, and you can thank the likes of Rush Limbaugh
who has so degraded public discourse we can no longer discuss the issues that mean the most to us.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Not a pejorative to me.
I say it proudly.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. wayyyyy back, meant radical feminist
Has changed for the better a bit, but now is on downswing again. I think people think of it as anti-male, not pro-equality. Feminist or humanist?
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think the real push to demonize the "Feminists" gained traction...
when Rush Limpballs went national. I remember he was the only voice attacking them when he was in Sacramento in the late eighties.

Feminism was established as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society. - Rush Limbaugh
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. yep, the coiner of "feminazi"
I believe.

Truly, a despicable personality.
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Agree. Women routinely described themselves as feminists
until hate radio made it a dirty word. Hate radio went all out to equate feminism with hatred of men, sex, children, and even America. And, sadly, their fatwa worked. Women started to dodge the word rather than put up with the innuendo.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Yep, exactly
I didn't see this post when I posted below. That's exactly how I remember it.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-03-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Here's a youtube video of Rush encountering an angry feminist in 1990
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Weren't you paying attantion?
it was in all the papers and on Rush Limbaugh, Olielly and everything. Don't see how you could have missed it :sarcasm:
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. about 20 -25 years ago,
Under the Reagan administration. I stopped using that term to describe myself because people started to react as though I had said a rude word, like the other "f" word.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. "ist" and "ism" just have negative connotations about them
probably from Stalinsist, communist, fascist, etc.

so by attaching the "ism" or "ist" onto anything you don;'t like, you make IT nefarious.

kind of like the penchant for adding "gate" to everything :eyes:

and it's "code" for "I am too lazy to actually study this and come up with a cogent argument, so I will just scare you into thinking it MUST be bad"
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. same time that "liberal" did - the Reagan era
:puke:
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. What do you mean, "become"? It always has been

There have been a great many people who use feminist as a perjorative since the days the word first came into use. It's not a new phenomenon.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. Most believe that the original goals of the feminist movement
have been achieved (equal pay, legal equality for property...) The overall assumption is that gender discrimnation is by and large a thing of the past. That infers that the activists are fringe players who want more than equality, meritocracy, etc.

Given that as the environment, most people would not want to be equated with the current crop of feminist activists.



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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Every one of those statements is misinformed.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 07:55 PM by omega minimo
Maybe too much "overall assumption" and not enough actual information



from #20

Younger women were born into a world driven by consumer, ornamental, celebrity values. Even if they don't espouse those values, they're caught up in a world where they are being told that they have to do these star turns -- where they have to appear on the cover of a book with their shirt off, for instance. It's easy to attack women who do that. I didn't grow up with that. The difference between older and younger feminists is how we respond to consumer culture. If you're caught up in it, you're probably not thinking about changing it.

What about the recent idea that it's feminist to choose to embrace what has traditionally been called, and derided as, feminine?

Just because someone wears a push-up bra does not mean she's not a feminist. It doesn't mean she is a feminist, either. It's not about what you wear, or if you use makeup or not. I put on lipstick at times, and at other times I don't. I wear various undergarments. But people who focus on that are missing the whole point, which is what you do in the world. Still, I am reluctant to condemn women who engage in this new brand of feminism -- and it probably is a brand by now, with its own trademark -- because it's not their fault. They are trapped in a world where the whole mechanism for social change has gone by the boards.

Are you saying that there is no way to promote social change anymore?

No, I'm saying it's not obvious. These days, everything changes overnight. Nobody knows who is in charge. No one knows who to appeal to. So we need to start at square one and figure out what the forces are and respond to them. It's as if the new culture has eaten up the society like a virus. It's a Philip K. Dick futuristic vision: our lonely selves and our credit cards. Maybe this is how it felt at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. The 19th century Dickensian world seemed utterly devastating and insurmountable, but eventually social and political analyses did make a difference. Right now, there is no honest discussion going on.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Regardless, from what I see and hear, there is a widely belief
the equality has been achieved in law and in practice.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes, "regardless" of the facts, that misinformed "belief" exists
"Most believe that the original goals of the feminist movement have been achieved (equal pay, legal equality for property...)"

Yet there is common knowledge that on average, women earn $.75 for evey $1 earned by men and still crash into the Glass Ceiling.

"The overall assumption is that gender discrimnation is by and large a thing of the past."

Even though they know that's not true and see mostly men in leadership roles at every level of society.

"That infers that the activists are fringe players who want more than equality, meritocracy, etc."

So having ignored the facts and the evidence of their own experience, it's easier to just smear "feminists" as "fringe players."

"Given that as the environment, most people would not want to be equated with the current crop of feminist activists."

Add that all up and what you have is a steaming pile of bullshit. :hi:
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Many people really do feel the battle was won,
and to many there is no compelling evidence to the contrary. Some disagree with the specifics you cite and there are also other stats that support their view, such as college admissions. Their positions do have some merit and can not be reasonably dismissed out of hand.

Gender discrimination is now considered a bad thing, whereas before it was tolerated and even considered "natural". People have seen many kinds of discrimination go from being the acceptable and the norm to a much more merit based baseline for our society. The law also is foursquare against gender discrimination. Clearly its not completly gone yet, but it has moved significantly in the last 40 years to the point where overt discrimination is a rarity. With that as a backdrop and generally held perception, when any particular group starts stridently claiming massive and insideous discrimination, is there any wonder that it is a hard sell?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. They may feel that way but they know it isn't true
That discrepancy creates a lot of confusion for younger women as well as others. Although "some disagree with the specifics you cite" that doesn't change the realities. Yes, there have been improvements-- and increased awareness-- over the past 40 years. However "the battle" has not been "won."

"With that as a backdrop and generally held perception, when any particular group starts stridently claiming massive and insideous discrimination, is there any wonder that it is a hard sell?"

The OP and your comment were about the demonization of the word "feminist." The "backdrop" is flimsy cardboard, the "generally held perception" is illusion. This thread is not "stridently claiming massive and insideous discrimination." However, when women's rights advocates point out the work that remains to be done to make REAL the imagined equality, the demonization of "strident" feminists makes it easy to dismiss as a "hard sell."
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. Susan Faludi: Backlash and Stiffed

Backlash: The Undeclared War against American Women | Introduction
Printable Version Download PDF Cite this Page

Susan Faludi’s bestselling book, Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women, is a methodically researched and documented work challenging conventional wisdom about the American women’s movement and women’s gains in achieving equality in the latter years of the twentieth century. Faludi begins the book by looking carefully at then-current myths about the status of women, including the press reports that single career women are more likely to be depressed than other women, that professional women are leaving their jobs in droves to stay at home, and that single working women over age thirty have a small chance of ever getting married. Not only are these myths not true, says Faludi, but they are evidence of a society-wide backlash against women and what they have achieved in recent years. She describes this backlash as a ‘‘kind of pop-culture version of the Big Lie’’ and declares that ‘‘it stands the truth boldly on its head and proclaims that the very steps that have elevated women’s positions have actually led to their downfall.’’

In her book, Faludi takes the press to task for failing to challenge the myths about women in the 1980s and especially for spreading, through ‘‘trend journalism,’’ stories about how unhappy women are, despite their having reaped the benefits of women’s liberation in the 1970s. Faludi challenges the prevailing wisdom that the women’s movement is to blame for women’s unhappiness; she believes their unhappiness actually stems from the fact that the struggle for equality is not yet finished.

Faludi uses data from a wide variety of sources, such as government and university studies, newspapers, census reports, scholarly journals, and personal interviews to explore women’s status in the 1980s. The personal interviews offer a look at the individuals who are behind the ‘‘backlash’’ and, according to Faludi, are hindering women’s progress.

http://www.enotes.com/backlash-undeclared/

****************

http://www.motherjones.com/arts/qa/1999/09/faludi.html

Susan Faludi: the Mother Jones Interview
Arts: The Pulitzer Prize-winner who identified the backlash against feminism turns her attention to the next oppressed class: men.
Interviewed By Sue Halpern
September/October 1999 Issue

When Susan Faludi published Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women in 1992, the moment seemed ripe for a feminist revival. Bill Clinton had been elected, essentially, by women; Anita Hill had outed Clarence Thomas and sparked a national discussion on sexual harassment and gender inequality in the workplace; and Washington had hosted the largest pro-choice rally ever assembled. Meanwhile, Faludi's book, which investigated the myths of women's improving economic and social lives, crested the best-seller lists for almost nine months. Faludi herself became something of a cultural icon -- a professional feminist, pictured on the cover of Time, next to that other cultural icon, Gloria Steinem. But Faludi has always been, above all, a journalist -- in 1991 she won a Pulitzer Prize for labor reporting for the Wall Street Journal -- who's unable to resist a good story when she sees one. In the early 1990s, the stories she saw had mainly to do with men's anger and confusion. She started hanging out at job clubs and Promise Keepers rallies and in Marine recruiting stations and locker rooms. She spent time with male porn stars and cadets at The Citadel. Faludi began to see patterns emerging from these stories. Her new book, Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man, will be published in October by William Morrow & Co.

<snip>

So men are upset about the same thing their feminist wives and girlfriends and daughters have been upset about -- that they are judged on how they look. And they're obsessed about it too?

Eating disorders are on the rise in young men, which says something. And the other day, when I was getting my hair cut, the woman who was doing it told me that she's noticed that men are hysterical about their hair these days. They tell her that they're worried that if they lose their hair they won't get a woman. Which, ironically, is just the same thing that women have always said -- that if they're not thin or sexy or pretty enough they won't find a man.

Given men's current preoccupation with their looks, does feminism have things to teach men?

The feminist diagnosis, especially from second-wave feminists like Betty Friedan in The Feminine Mystique, has remarkable relevance to the male dilemma. The truth is that what feminism is asking for is exactly what men want in their own lives, which is not to be judged according to superficial and ephemeral and impossible-to-attain objectives. Men don't want to live in a world run on retail values any more than women do. Like women, they want to be needed and useful participants in society. They want to have real utility and to be engaged in meaningful work.

Your feminism has always seemed to come from an analysis of political and economic factors in the culture at large. This seems very different from the feminism of younger women, who focus more on being able to express themselves and achieve individual fulfillment and pleasure.

Younger women were born into a world driven by consumer, ornamental, celebrity values. Even if they don't espouse those values, they're caught up in a world where they are being told that they have to do these star turns -- where they have to appear on the cover of a book with their shirt off, for instance. It's easy to attack women who do that. I didn't grow up with that. The difference between older and younger feminists is how we respond to consumer culture. If you're caught up in it, you're probably not thinking about changing it.

What about the recent idea that it's feminist to choose to embrace what has traditionally been called, and derided as, feminine?

Just because someone wears a push-up bra does not mean she's not a feminist. It doesn't mean she is a feminist, either. It's not about what you wear, or if you use makeup or not. I put on lipstick at times, and at other times I don't. I wear various undergarments. But people who focus on that are missing the whole point, which is what you do in the world. Still, I am reluctant to condemn women who engage in this new brand of feminism -- and it probably is a brand by now, with its own trademark -- because it's not their fault. They are trapped in a world where the whole mechanism for social change has gone by the boards.

Are you saying that there is no way to promote social change anymore?

No, I'm saying it's not obvious. These days, everything changes overnight. Nobody knows who is in charge. No one knows who to appeal to. So we need to start at square one and figure out what the forces are and respond to them. It's as if the new culture has eaten up the society like a virus. It's a Philip K. Dick futuristic vision: our lonely selves and our credit cards. Maybe this is how it felt at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. The 19th century Dickensian world seemed utterly devastating and insurmountable, but eventually social and political analyses did make a difference. Right now, there is no honest discussion going on.

Isn't that what journalists are paid for?

Absolutely. One major factor contributing to the failure to have this discussion about our consumer society is the media. So much of what we are concerned about in this culture -- like, for example, who has the biggest market share -- has been midwifed by the media. And with less and less commentary of any value to people. So much of the cynicism in journalism comes from journalists willfully avoiding what's going on. Everything is working out just fine for them, and they don't want to question anything because then they'd have to question themselves. As journalists, that's one place to start.

And you? Do you see yourself as a journalist, which is how you have described yourself, or an activist, which is how you were cast after Backlash?

I try to throw these ideas out there and pray that others are thinking about them too. My role is as a writer, because that's where I enter public life. For me, being a writer is the best way to be an activist.

*********************


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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Love Faludi
Stiffed and Backlash are some amazing tomes
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. feminism was tainted as man hater. a lot of women felt they
werent allowed to be feminine if they are feminists. as if they are suppose to be female anymore. this has been decades of white men defining the word to the point it was an offensive word. a couple years ago i took the word back along with liberal. when i call myself either i have literally had male think i was insulting me or almost using a cuss word
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think feminist became a pejorative in 1998...
when leading feminists gave Bill Clinton a pass for sexual activity with someone who worked for him. Feminists became irrelevant then, IMO. I don't mind Dems supporting the president, but the lock-step of feminists on this issue said volumes about their motivations - which had little to do with the inequality of the sexes in that type of relationship.



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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-03-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. I'm a feminist who must have missed the lockstep memo
I didn't give Clinton a free pass. What exactly DID it say about "their motivations", in your opinion?
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QMPMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Back in the late 60's or early 70's.
That is when things got really hot with women's issues, though some of it was around earlier.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. COINTELPRO was a big help.
Welcome to the Underground. :hi:
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. Around the time gingritch started his bullshit. - n/t
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. About the same time liberal did and by the same RW club. n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. The Pukes used a few loony acedemics to tarnish it
"Feminist" became synonymous with the "all men are potential rapists" man-bashing crap instead of what it's supposed to mean, a person who opposes the culturally imposed gender inequalities in our society.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
32. Rush Limbaugh & Feminazi
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. Feminist and Liberal have become 'nasty' words .........
to the Neo-Cons and they project that to Faux listeners et al.

Those women who have positions of 'power' should be thanking the women of the the 60s and 70s for leading the way.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-03-06 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
39. Behind every great man, there's a great woman.
Behind a great woman, there's no one.

From a poem - "It's My Turn to Say It" by Lillian Van Den Broek


Me toca a mi decirlo

Detras de un gran hombre hay una gran mujer
Detras de una gran mujer no hay nadie.
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bluedogyellowdog Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-03-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
40. I think it was Limbaugh
but it could have started during the late 1970s during the ERA debates. That was really the first big "wedge issue" the religious right used to organize themselves into a major political force.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-03-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. Selective outrage...but silence regarding Sharia law and the plight of women in Arab countries nt
Edited on Fri Nov-03-06 08:54 PM by antfarm
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