Military veteran wants return to citizen army.

[Gogi]

www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/militarymatters/story/B00BDC2C6539266C8625721C0015F409?OpenDocument.html

Sorry can't get link to work. It's on the front page of the Post Dispatch online edition under columnists. The column is entitled 'Military Matters'.

[zeemike]

1. Yea...someone finally coming to there senses.

The all volunteer military is a failure as far as a military for a democratic country is concerned.
We need to seriously consider returning to a conscripted military and mandatory service (not just military) for 18 to 20 year olds. It will be good for them and our country.

[Hutchewon]

2. A draft is:

1. Immoral
2. Undemocratic
3. Involuntary Servitude
4. A way for the NeoCons to get cannon fodder for their stupid adventures.
5. A way for the Government to indoctrinate and propagandize our youth.

The best way to avoid more stupidity like Iraq is to destroy the Military Industrial Complex that feeds on them.

I'm appalled that anyone on a DU forum would advocate bringing back the uncivilized practice of Conscription.

[libhill]

3. Agreed -

and I've always wondered how it is that the war mongers and invasion planners get by with calling themselves the "Defense Department"? As retired Marine General Smedley Butler once wrote, "War is a Racket". And he would be one to know, having participated in the U.S. foreign adventures of the early 20th Century from the Boxer Rebellion to Haiti and Nicaragua. In later life he came to believe that he and his Marines had been used as tools of Big Business interests, and developed a philosophy that the military should be restricted to defending our own shores from invasion, and nothing else. He even went as far as to state that the Navy should be restricted to operations within 200 miles of our coasts. I agree whole heartedly. Butler died before America entered World War Two, but he felt during the late 1930's that America was trying to provoke Japan into war. Interesting man. And way ahead of his times. Maybe even ahead of our times.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Welcome to DU Hutchewon

You hit the nail on the head with your post.

Don

[Bucky]

6. "Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle." --Thomas Jefferson's 1st inaugural

I'm not for a draft either, but those who call for it are not immoral. When we first had the draft in this country, the sons of the rich served alongside the sons of the poor. For the first time since the Revolutionary War, blacks served alongside whites as brothers in arms. The business leaders of those generations were not the MBA-generations of today who exported American jobs overseas. If you know a man, it's harder to destroy his job just to turn a slight profit.

Liberal draft advocates are looking for a cure to the greed-driven society we live in today. Many youngsters today have no sense of community service, of commitment to the country as a whole. They don't get it when they see a video of JFK telling an earlier generation to ask not what your country can do for you; it just sounds like nice words to them; not a mission that each of them should commit to.

Generals today prefer the all volunteer military and I tend to defer to experts over my own personal ideology (which is one reason why I'm a Democrat). But the wide diversity in political opinions among the veterans I meet assures me that the Army is entirely unable to "indoctrinate and propagandize our youth." Most vets I meet are pragmatic people and about half are liberals who wish civilian life provided the consistancy and equality of health care that the armed services provide.

[NNN0LHI]

7. I have asked for some examples of wealthy people being drafted here before

No one has ever provided even one example.

I wonder why that is?

Don

[libhill]

8. Probably because

rich people don't get drafted. College deferments, National Guard service, and other scams keep them protected.

[NNN0LHI]

9. I think you may be right

Some folks must think the song "Lucky Man" is based on a true story?

Don

[libhill]

11. I remember that song...

Something about: "He went to the National Guard for is country and his king, of his honor and his glory, the sheeple would sing. Ooooh, what stupid sheep they was, oooh, what stupid sheep they was". Something along those lines. :)

[krkaufman]

24. Inequality in past legislation does not mandate the same in new.

A draft with *any* sort of "out" would be wrong -- which makes the mandatory "service" (i.e. including non-military projects) a difficult issue to negotiate.

[Strelnikov_]

10. Well, The Volunteer Army Has Certainly Brought A Halt To Their

stupid adventures, hasn't it?

And where do you think they are getting the cannon fodder from now? The economically disadvantaged, immigrants, and mercenary armies being put on the national credit card.

And how do you think they are stretching the military? By hiring private firms for support duties, like Halliburton, and putting the cost on the national credit card.

The fact is that this war would be over in a week, if even begun, if there was a threat of little Johnny and Ashley being drawn into the war.

The volunteer military should be maintained at such a level to maintain a viable peacetime defense. Any authorization to go to war should include an authorization to draft the required number of troops to replace the peacetime contingent going to war.

Think there would have been all the flag waving enthusiasm about going to Iraq if there was a risk of little Johnny and Ashley being one of the 140,000 drafted for the war?

And as for the draft as 'A way for the Government to indoctrinate and propagandize our youth', I really don't think so.

You make some good points, but history does not bear them out.

Unless there is a built-in mechanism for immediate sacrifice, there will be politicians willing to beat the war drums and place the cost on the national credit card.

[libhill]

12. Now now,

we musn't send Buffy and Duffy off to war, you know. They have, uh, "other priorities". I mean war is really so, so tiresome and so working class, don't you think?

[krkaufman]

26. Agree w/ agreement. Though I was thinking "Blake" would have been ...

... a better replacement for "Johnny." Picturing Blake and Ashley in their chem-attack gear would have Michael P. Keaton trading-in his Escalade for a Prius in three rings to his Senator.

[NNN0LHI]

13. You are giving Americans way too much credit

My Republican parents would have not cared if I had been drafted and sent to Vietnam to die. They thought Vietnam and the draft was a great idea. They still do.

And they also think Nixon got a raw deal to this day.

See what I mean?

Don

[Strelnikov_]

14. Then Why Is The Draft Such A Third Rail Issue Today?

If the majority of parents today felt like your parents, why do politicians, partuicularly those from the war party, avoid even any talk of the draft.

One set of parents, from 30 years ago, not caring that their son is killed in war does not a majority make.

[NNN0LHI]

15. More than 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. Millions more served there

Not all were drafted but one set of parents didn't make all them soldiers.

The reason that the draft is such a third rail issue today is because some of us have learned from those past mistakes.

Don

[Strelnikov_]

16. And That Is Why Connecting Any Proposed Military Action To The Third Rail,

makes that proposed military action a third rail issue by default, IMHO.

[NNN0LHI]

17. What percent of American would have been FOR the draft a week after 9/11?

My estimate would be about 90% of Americans would have been for a draft back then. The same as Bush's approval numbers were at that time.

People tend to make unwise decisions when they are fearful and under duress.

Don

[Strelnikov_]

18. And At A Minimum, A Draft Of 30,000 For Afghanistan Under A System

as I proposed under my OP there would have been an immediate, significant price to be paid, beyond just slapping a yellow ribbon on the SUV.

And then when the Draft for Iraq of 150,000 was proposed there would have been an immediate price to be paid, beyond just slapping a yellow ribbon on the SUV.

[NNN0LHI]

19. But about 14 million young men become 19 years old every year

You are talking about drafting only a very small percentage of the total pool. Minuscule actually.

What happens to the over 13 million 19 year olds not needed?

Draft deferments maybe?

Who is going to get those deferments?

Some financially disadvantaged inner city young man maybe? Don't count on it.

Or are some wealthy peoples children going to get those deferments?

Your idea doesn't work. It never has. It never will.

Don

[Strelnikov_]

20. And I Say Your 'Idea' Is Not Working, Never Has, Never Will

Reasoned debate is obviously failing to prevent morally challenged politicians from playing the war card with mercenary armies paid for with the national credit card.

What is your suggestion, then. More reasoned debate?

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride . . .


And is there some immutable law that says that draft deferments favoring the upper classes will be a part of any draft authorization act?

[NNN0LHI]

21. The upper classes would write any draft authorization act

Perhaps they would allocate the available deferments to the poor and disadvantaged and draft their own sons to be sent to their deaths?

Then again maybe not.

My answer is if the scumbags in DC can't find enough willing participants to fight their oil wars for them they should fold up shop and come home.

Don

[MUSTANG_2004]

33. Not 14 million

According to the census, there are about 26 million people aged 18-23. Knock that in half because we're counting only men and you get 13 million. Divide that by 6 because the age range covers 6 years, and we're at 2.2 million. So any given year about 2.2 million men turn 19.

http://www.census.gov/mso/www/pres_lib/1999pop18/frame.htm

[NNN0LHI]

34. I stand corrected and thanks for the data

I knew it was still a whole lot of deferments though.

Don

[krkaufman]

28. And how much longer would the Vietnam war have continued...?

... had there NOT been a draft? If the Vietnam war had been left to "The Unfortunate" (see Sam Seder Show) and the outsourced, it's possible that we would have been there even longer.

One thing to remember regarding Vietnam, though... it was a different era, under a different paradigm. At the beginning, both parties still believed in the domino theory and active, military resistance to the so-called "communist" countries, rather than trusting that inferior systems would fail in due course. Today, of course, terrorism and al Qaeda are the substitute for communism; and it's a challenge to counter the misinformation of our misleaders.

I believe that the existence of the military draft may have helped bring a swifter end to the Vietnam conflict; but am open to the "starve the beast" approach to diminishing the M-I complex. I think loindelrio's "pay as you go" approach to military authorization might be a good compromise position.

[NNN0LHI]

32. Or how much LESS time would Vietnam have lasted had there been NO draft?

Might we have ran out of warm bodies much sooner without the draft to feed that beast. Chances are without a draft that screwup would have ended much earlier saving thousands of lives. Can't fight wars without soldiers.

It goes both ways.

Don

[krkaufman]

35. Yes, but that point had already been made within the thread;

... and is the only perspective generally voiced.

[krkaufman]

27. Your parents may not be persuadable... but not everyone is.

Your parents may be part of the 30-40% who still support the Dim Son; and I doubt we could ever do anything to take that percentage below 25%. We'll never have unanimity.

The goal is to have a plurality agree, sufficient to keep the war mongers out -- or to throw them out.

[Retired AF Dem]

31. Your parents must of really been Democrats

since most wars and most drafts have been Democrat ideas since 1865. And here we go again another Democrat (Op) advocating a draft.

[krkaufman]

22. Actually, reinstatement of a military draft would be a whole lot quicker ....

... and a lot more likely, in bringing US military aggression into check. The citizenry would be a lot less willing to support going to war, and hopefully become much more well-informed, if their children stood a good chance of being involved.

In fact, reinstatement of the military draft may be just the first step towards your ultimate goal of bringing the M-I complex into check. A more educated citizenry might finally wake-up to what's been happening for the last 50+ years.

[krkaufman]

23. Not to debate all your bullets, but I'm wondering ...

How, specifically, is mandatory service "immoral"?

And, assuming a democratic society chooses to implement mandatory service, for the greater good, how would doing so be "undemocratic"?

I *do* have a problem w/ the "involuntary servitude" aspect of it, but see this latest Iraq war as a sample of what a country gets when the fighting is outsourced and loses any personal connection.

[TahitiNut]

30. Total. Fucking. Bullshit.

That's the stance of cowards and spoiled brats who can't wipe their own butts.

Democracy is NOT a spectator sport ... nor is it some "dirty" task too low for elitists.

EVERYONE must participate, even in the dirty work.

Universal National Service.

Everyone.

[unhappycamper]

5. Your link was a bit off

Your link had '.html' at the end, which caused it to fail.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/militarymatters/story/B00BDC2C6539266C8625721C0015F409?OpenDocument

[MUSTANG_2004]

25. How about returning to a small army?

That avoids both the draft and the far-flung wars that aren't fundamental to our national interest.

While we're at it, we could go back to a National Guard that doesn't get sent overseas every few years.

[krkaufman]

29. That's a good idea, too. The Nat'l Guard forces should be kept here...

... for our defense.