Folks, the filibuster is dead

[WilliamPitt]

It is simple math at this point.

44 Democratic Senators + 1 Independent = 45

41 Senators needed to sustain a filibuster. That's a margin of four, assuming that Jeffords would stand with the filibuster, which is not at all certain.

Byrd, Johnson and Nelson are all voting 'aye.' Easy assumption is that they will not support a filibuster of the guy they intend to vote in favor of.

We're down to 42, assuming Jeffords is with us.

Biden has said he won't support a filibuster. So has Landrieu. Akaka and Dorgan support cloture.

That's it. Game over. 41 is unachievable.

This was a noble effort on the part of our activists here, but I think it is time to turn out the lights and try to enjoy a well-earned rest this weekend.

Either that, or keep writing, faxing and calling to register your disgust to the last moment.

But it is what it is.

[Walt Starr]

1. Then the Democratic Party is also DEAD, IMO n/t

[WilliamPitt]

2. Sez Walt for the ten thousanth time in three years

Copy and paste, eh?

;)

[Walt Starr]

13. It's been good knowing ya, Will

Time for paths to diverge...

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. This is your way of welching on our bet?!?

You owe me THIRTY FUCKING DAYS of "alcibiades_mystery made me his bitch" as a signature line, fucker, and you ain't getting off that easy. Either you start running it now through the confirmation, or you are a fucking bet-welcher of first magnitude, no fucking lie.

[Walt Starr]

82. That bet is not over yet.

When it is, I'll keep my word. I'll come back and I'll change my signature line IF I LOSE!.

Of course, it'll only show up in archives, but hell, I'll have met the conditions of the bet. And hell, I'll leave it in the sig line for good!

[alcibiades_mystery]

122. Weak

That's a fucking welch and you know it. Half-assed, to say the least.

[Marnieworld]

6. Bury it next to the Constitution

I can hear taps now.
:cry:

[Walt Starr]

Yep, turn out the lights, it's ALL OVER

I wonder who the Greens will run against Durbin this year?

[Marnieworld]

33. who cares?

If the president has the power to make laws with signing statement and can suspend whatever law at his whim due to powers inherent in his manufactured endless war the other branches of government are meaningless. Throw in election fraud and who sits in the congress is meaningless. I have to stop thinking about this because it's too early to drink. :scared:

[TahitiNut]

27. A party that won't unanimously oppose fascism doesn't deserve to be called

... "Democratic." No way. No how.

[oc2002]

98. no, it is not over, IT IS JUST STARTING

It takes awhile to get the Dems started, they are like a old tractor that needs to be tweeked, re-started, primed and pampered to get started.

But once they do, watchout baby.

[TahitiNut]

102. The march towards fascism has been going on for 25 years.

It's too late when people are in the ovens.

[Peace Patriot]

73. Walt, you can just go away with this gloom and doom talk!

What a stupid statement anyway! The Democratic Party was dead a long time ago--dead and buried by the Bushite corporate takeover of the election system with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY software in the new electronic voting systems, funded by Tom Delay's $4 billion HAVA porkbarrel machine. When they said nothing about that, they were finished.

And we've been tryng to revive the corpse ever since. What I think you are really saying is that the Left is dead, and I totally disagree with you, since I believe that the MAJORITY of Americans are Leftists, or, at the very least, Progressives. And we are NOT dead. Beaten up, disempowered, and, above all, DISENFRANCHISED. But not dead. Not even close to being dead. And we ARE the heart and soul of this political party.

Naysayers like you love to announce DEFEATS. You always take the depressed, disempowered, disenfranchised view--instead of seeing the long term battle--indeed, the long term revolution--that is taking place, in which, OF COURSE, there will be lost battles, and a roller coaster of mountains and valleys. Getting through the valleys with your heart and soul in tact is half the battle. That's why people like you, who jump right in and start stomping on others who are in the valley, and are trying to renew and re-energize themselves to face that next mountain, is so bad and counter-productive. And un-constructive. You got another political party to propose? Propose it! Let's talk about it. What exactly do you want people to DO? Hm-m? Not participate? Stop tryng? Not vote? Jump off a cliff? What is YOUR plan for reviving the Democratic Party? Or for creating an alternative?

[Walt Starr]

93. Don't worry, looks like next Monday at 4:30

I won't have any reason to be here any longer any way.

[Roho]

127. but untill then

You will do your best to spread doom and gloom to ensure you get your wish.

[mzmolly]

125. Yeah, only 98% of the Democrats in the Senate supported a filibuster.

Traitors! :eyes:

Walt, yesterday you said you supported Kerry for the nomination in 08, today your saying "don't support ANY democrats" ?

[kath]

128. 98%???? Huh? It;s WAY less than that, sadly.

[mzmolly]

135. 42 of 44 is what I heard according to the "latest." Do you have another

figure?

A more conservative figure is 36 of 44 which translates to 82% ...

[mom cat]

129. DAMN IT WILL ... CHECK YOUR MATH ...WE DO NOT NEED 41.

"THEY" need 60.
We can still get 41 who will not vote for cloture!
Some might openly vote foe cloture, others might abstain or be "out to lunch".
THIS ISN'T OVER YET!

[MiniMandaRuth]

3. But still.... never give up.

Sleep, yes. But dream of victory that we will have someday.

[still_one]

4. it isn't over until the fat lady sings

[WilliamPitt]

9. You have a way to overcome mathematics?

The bodies aren't there.

[Walt Starr]

20. Only way is to change minds

If Biden changes his mind, the math changes.

That's the only way to alter the outcome.

[Marnieworld]

22. They could change their minds though.

I can't lose hope until it's over. I just can't. Perhaps Byrd would vote yes on Alito but no on cloture. Who the hell knows for sure at this point? I think that if there wasn't some reason to believe then they wouldn't be trying at all. Still hoping. :patriot:

[still_one]

37. and if I recall Will, were you quite ready to embrace the compromise

that would avoid the nuclear option? That wasn't even a compromise, that was a caving in

In fact I am not even sure what the purpose of this thread is. Are you trying to demoralize people who want to fight and express their disent?

Isn't that what has been done to us for the last six years?

[WilliamPitt]

44. This isn't about that compromise

This is about a straight-up nose count.

The noses aren't there. I am sorry if stating basic math is demoralizing. Pretend I didn't say it, and ride the crest of uptimism right up until the gavel falls, if such an action suits you.

I can count.

[still_one]

51. and people can't change there minds?

[WilliamPitt]

54. Of course they can

But will they? It's Friday. Fax and call your ass off; the phones will be rining in empty Senate offices until Monday, when the vote happens.

[WI_DEM]

5. And Let's keep calling, faxing and e-mailing and make sure that

they know that once again they are letting the Dem base down.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. So now you're being eeyore?

If Hillary supports it than others hopefully will follow. It ain't over till the fat lady sings and she hasn't sung yet boy!

[WilliamPitt]

11. Hillary makes 40

We need 41.

[LiberalAndProud]

91. You could be right.

Ok, you probably are right. But 1 is not an impossibility.

Hillary is working with us. Kerry is working with us. Kennedy is working with us.
And they do know their horse trading.

Sound taps, turn out the lights and head for the Registrar's office if you will.

I will wait until Monday.


Call me hopelessly optimistic, or eternally hopeful, but I will hope.

[Surya Gayatri]

123. Simply & sincerely

put, L&P. To one Cornhusker from a former one, I'm proud to be on your side!

:yourock: :pals: SG

[LiberalAndProud]

137. Glad to know you Surya!

:pals:

Where in Nebraska?

[helderheid]

112. we need 1 more? Just 1???

[Dawgs]

8. It's dead if you're a quitter...

I'm not ready to quit, but it looks like you are; am I wrong?

[stepnw1f]

10. So Quit Fighting? (nt)

[WilliamPitt]

12. Yeah, that's usually the message I tend to carry

:rolleyes:

The votes aren't there. Don't stop fighting, but do count noses.

[stepnw1f]

74. Never Said That Will... Just Surprised

I know you work really hard for truth, and I'll never question your integrity, but this was not constructive. Anyways, I will fight on and hope you do too. Don't give up brotha.:patriot:

[LiberalAndProud]

116. Wanna bet?

one way to fire us Dems up is to tell us to lay down.

[Beetwasher]

14. Wrong! Biden and Landrieu Can STILL ABSTAIN!!!

By saying they won't support a filibuster means they won't actively vote AGAINST cloture, it doesn't guarantee a vote FOR cloture. Have they actually said they WILL vote FOR cloture????

[KittyWampus]

26. That was my understanding as well. Has Pitt considered abstentions?

[WilliamPitt]

32. The margin is too close

Byrd, Nelson, Johnson, Akaka, Dorgan, Landrieu...there's only so much room to maneuver.

[Beetwasher]

41. But Have They Said The Will Vote FOR CLOTURE????

Or have they said that they won't support the filibuster?

Technically "supporting the filibuster" means a vote agaisnt cloture. Not supporting it means not voting against cloture, but that doesn't necessarily mean a vote FOR cloture. Abstentions are a very real possibility.

The Repubs need 60 votes for cloture, do they have it? Dems DO NOT NEED 41 votes against cloture.

[Mass]

43. Did you ever think the number were there?

[WilliamPitt]

46. I thought it was possible

A long shot worth pushing hard for, but possible.

[Mass]

50. It seems still worthwhile to get as many Democrats as possible

to vote NO on cloture.

[WilliamPitt]

56. Agreed

[Beetwasher]

58. Not Necessary, We Only Need Them To Abstain

The burden is on the Repubs to get 60 votes FOR CLOTURE.

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. Why would they do that?

They've made it clear that they don't want a filibuster.

[Beetwasher]

62. Political Cover

They can say they didn't support the filibuster.

[Kralizec]

15. The Bookie's don't play the games, the players do.

You may be right.

Unless you want to be called the fat lady, just wait until it's really over.

[neverevergivein]

16. In the last 12 hours

I've made more phone calls and typed more emails than I have in the last 12 years. I'd bet that goes for hundreds or thousand of fellow DUers. I don't believe Senator Kerry would ask that of us if he didn't have knowledge that he had the votes to at least sustain a filibuster, nuke option be damned. After working my ass off since yesterday afternoon, you can't ask me (or us) to quit now. Fight til the end, and then even if you go down, go down swinging. Seriously, we are not this pathetic to just give up and surrender the country, are we?

[Marnieworld]

39. Welcome to DU

I really really mean it. :hi:

[Career Prole]

124. Ditto to Marnieworld's welcome!

You're just what we need here! :thumbsup:
Keep up the good work.

(God, I love to see a scrapper!) :D

[blm]

17. Our DISSENT IS NOT DEAD. There is no reason NOT TO REGISTER DISSENT

loud and clear.

[WilliamPitt]

21. Amen

[Mass]

18. So it is not worth getting as many Democrats as possible

voting against cloture?

[Botany]

19. Still got to try.

W.P.,

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Hey we might very well got knocked on ass but we HAVE TO take a swing
@ the SOB.

[tritsofme]

23. Akaka and Dorgan support cloture as well.

This was over before it started.

[KarenS]

24. I really don't want to hear this,,,,,

sheesh,,,, I need a smilie with fingers in ears, singing lalalalala


damn.

[iwanmycntrybak]

25. Tell Howard Dean to

Pack up the tent! I think Dean is great, but he has failed to organize this Party!

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. Dr. Dean is playing with the hand he was dealt

There were only 44 Democrats in the Senate when he became Chairman last year.

[DinahMoeHum]

75. Howard Dean has only started to organize the Dems. . .

C'mon the guy can't be everywhere at once doing everything at once. He's too busy concentrating on rebuilding the state and local Democratic parties at EVERY LEVEL in EVERY STATE so that we can become competitive once more in ALL 50 STATES, plus territories.

Fuck the Beltway Dems, fuck the DLC, fuck the DSCC and the DCCC. Fuck the "consultants".
Fuck the whiners and chokers.

Work with us and kick these mofos out the door.

Viva the "netroots", the PDA, the DFA, and the DNC (under Dean).

:kick::kick::kick:

[gumby]

28. Words Fail Me.

.....

[Peace Patriot]

29. Will, do you have the word from someone in the know (whom you trust), or

are you just guessing on the basis of known numbers? It may be a wild hope, but I wouldn't be so sure of Byrd's vote for cloture (shutting down debate). His vote for Alito is a shock (I understand he's got rightwingnut trouble in W. VA). But he might still support a filibuster on princiiple. And the vote's not until Tuesday. A lot of jawboning can happen.

[WilliamPitt]

34. This is just me

and I would jump out of my skin if I turn out to be wrong.

Byrd, Dorgan, Akaka, Johnson, Nelson, Landrieu...

The math just isn't there.

[liberalnurse]

30. I can't seem to figure out just " Why ?" they

are voting for this Constitutional nightmare. :shrug:

I'm sure they realize how the majority of the Democratic Party/constituents feel about this. Heck, we can keep O'Connor on the Bench until December 06! Their actions are not reflective of the people and Party they represent. Why the alliance with repugs?

[Hubert Flottz]

31. Can You Say Heil Dumbya?

You'd better learn to say it then!

[durablend]

63. Or the new name for the country

"Fascist States of America" (eventually to be changed to "Fascist States of China")

You'd better learn it!!

[Hubert Flottz]

103. Bushland Uber Alito

Das Lied der Freepers

[xchrom]

35. i keep hoping that this is actually not a bad thing.

alito, bush, etc are battles -- individual battles in a long, long war.

the repukes took their time building ever so carefully their power -- we can expect no less of our selves.

all progressives/liberals remain my brothers and sisters no matter what happens.

even the dissolution of the democratic party -- or it's rebirth.

it will take a libera/progressivel revivalism -- a fire that we take with the same passion that the neocons and christofacists carry theirs.

a fire we can build on every day.

for me dean and hackett among some others give a great deal of hope.

[seabeyond]

36. wow will, we really set kerry up mighty fine didnt we

we got the dems on this board, truth out all in a frenzy for a demand on filibuster. what is it, a no vote without filibuster is a yes vote.

we got kerry to stick his neck out with our demands,.... demands.... knowing alito was going in. but..... what did we have to lose

now, not even 24 hours later we come out and say, we dont have the votes. we knew we didnt have the votes before the frenzy was inspired, didnt we?

we swiftboated him better and more effeciently than the disgraced swiftboats. we need to work on getting someones back

[Mass]

40. We need to get as many Democrats on record to oppose cloture

Even if it is a symbolic gesture at this point.

[seabeyond]

49. damn right. we have to now to help kerry not face total humiliation

and ridicule. we put him there. damn....... this is such bullshit. knew this shit was going to happen.

[Mass]

55. It is not about Kerry - It is about us.

Do we want people who fight or not.

I have been advocating opposing cloture for more than a week now. Not going to stop now.

[still_one]

48. We must fight and NOT give up

This thread is encouraging us to give up, but not for me

Even if it doesn't get of the ground, or we lose trying, at least we tried

[seabeyond]

59. it was a frenzy. pumped and worked. dems werent being

reasonable, just attack. no one listen. just attack. and this is what we are left with. just pisses me off. i want..... the fuckin repugs out. i want my life back. and for dems to continually take down the dems........ is fuckin with my want. at least kerry has hillary and kennedy and a few more. that is good of them to stand with him. now lets watch the people on this board attack kerry some more. and the media.

will started it

[jillan]

85. Well said - Kerry did this for his base, I will support him on this

to the end!

[PATRICK]

101. I have to wonder

there was a double message in Kerry's call to filibuster. First, he said it first and was the only one. Second, he was in Switzerland.

This tells me, unless this is a sign of fatal detachment as exhibited toward election rigging in 2004, that he wasn't there to lobby hard against the jello tremors. That tells me that he didn't have enough and, as for once the gleeful media reported correctly, the Senators were dangerously divided and kerry put distance on purpose for two reasons(possibly): not to immediately have people taking sides in the middle of making their arguments, not to have the idea exposed stillborn. Now Kerry can justly take credit, since at the least we can imagine he was chief among those arguing for filibuster without splitting the coterie and losing his influence- whatever that is now- anywhere.

To us it was supposed to be the sign of a decisive battle(impossible of course, it's just a holding action). To the Senators it was various interpretations of duck and cover(not all of them as bad as they sound). It goes to show me that the limitations of leadership ride up hard against the repetitions of fatal flaws in one's past(flaws, not crimes).

Byrd, ever the idealist for Constitutional order and institutional conservatism, had learned the hard way(by his constituents dying) that his support for Vietnam was tragically wrong. He opposed Iraq like a convert. His experiences in court nominee battles likewise formed principles which have coalesced into his noble stand to sacrifice his nation for the principles that will come to an end for all intents and purposes shortly- unless other wheels of justice are not jettisoned into the collapsing coal mines of West Virginia. Fooled again because the contact to his constituents was not immediate.

Kerry enlisted, albeit in a time when everyone was tricked. Kerry learned and came back swinging. Kerry lost his first race and was on Nixon's enemies' list which directly became the Swift Boat slime he also
missed. the biggest mistakes he survived nearly cost him his life, his career and his country(still might). He has a massive tendency to bull into a fatal first mistake and then slog back out and up again. Cats have mythical nine lives. In reality, one can watch with speculation to see how many Kerry has left. But meanwhile, many citizens of this world are losing their one and only- for a pathetic little tea party Texas fraud.

And there are the others(sigh) whose humanity and limited leadership would consume epic novels, oceans of admiration and compassion- all drained into the stagnant Foggy Bottom swamp. If any of us or better than us were there it likely would go the same. If they were a radical, eyes shining brightly, lockstep pure souled pack of brilliant idealists they would rightly scare the pants(or other) off us and rightly so- the mythical invisible, non-existent radical American "left" the RW idiots see around every street corner. Painfully reduced to the size where something might and should be done but wouldn't be enough, not yet reduced to size of the Greens or Canadian NDP where pride and presumption would truly be things of a distant past, it is they, not the thug Alito on the hotseat. On the hotseat as in Iran Contra hearings, alone in bi-partisan cover land, alone in principle and rule land, alone in the unsympathetic media spotlight(bullied pitiably by the NYT) making the best rhetorical speeches they can with a nervous eye to the reactions of those who matter(and it ain't us or the people or whatever the nation used to be or could have been).

Marshal Foch made a successful and unprecedented retreat to save his nation(eventually). the German killing machine had to keep on, over extended. Sam Houston retreated to San Jacinto and made that work because the idiot he was fighting could not also help being lulled and positioned. Both those men kept their people together, grumbling, half-demoralized, crazed for a suicidal fight. But that is war.

We are citizens investing our lives in a committee of politicians. Forget who they are individually for a moment. Sends shivers doesn't it? Because we are sure we know we have been taken over by an illegal coup, screwed over and occupied in an avalanche of crime.

But does the Club get it? Enough? Different than the humble rule-keepers who got suckered over and over again in "turning points" of the last several decades? And what great political skills have they learned over the past decades except to dump the vast vast majority of Americans whose interests have been jettisoned with a bloodthirsty vengeance by the radically hijacked businessman's party?

Like some vast lumbering machine, gears locked and burning, cliff approaching, sound drowning out warning cries, America grinds on. That's it. That's it. Can't take it any more. But we will until it is over. We ARE turning from the bottom instead of the top. Slow, sometimes imperceptible, sometimes invisibly, sometimes ignored or forced into the usual deflection. Unknown to the Bushistas not even a nuke can stop it.

And then we'll damn well see whose country this is. And the madmen go down.

[DoBotherMe]

134. You are fabulous...

just sayin' :applause:

[mrcheerful]

38. Doom and gloom then you wonder why the repugs win.

Funny how theres so many doom and gloom types hanging around DU, what ever happened to standing up and fighting no matter what the odds are against you? Davey Crockett and the brave people that stood with him at the Alamo would spit in your face if you so called liberals were around. So would G Washington and those who braved that winter in valley Forge, starving, ill clothed, did they give up? Bet you would have whined and complained because things weren't going your way. What ever happened to the american spirit that kept those going when all was against them. Americans like the ones who whine and complain and do nothing but spread doom and gloom are just as bad as those we oppose. Americans yeah right just more chicken hawks.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

65. This Is Not About Us Standing Up To Fight Anymore.

It's about our so-called elected democrats to stand up and fight, and obviously they don't want to.

It means that you can write, fax, e-mail all day and all weekend, but that there are sufficient #'s of democrats with NO SPINE, who will not change their minds no matter what. It means that there is not a SINGLE repub who would falter, yet there are many, many democrats who will.

It means that while we're all putting in a noble effort, the cowards who lead us don't give a shit.

If William Pitt says it's over, you can be assured it is. He is one of the more rational people here, and is anything but a pessimist. It's just not in the cards unfortunately, and all he's saying is relax and realize it's over.

As is democracy in the country formerly known as America. It is another sad day in a long, long string of SAD days. The democratic party is pathetic, and that is the bottom line. Not necessarily it's followers(us), but it's leaders....at least many of them.

[WilliamPitt]

94. Thank you

[The Straight Story]

132. Bitching about dems and attacking them IS fighting - get the DINO's out

We can see a lost battle because some of the generals we put into place are not thinking about our best interests.

War is hell, and if they are more worried about how they look or what the 'enemy' will think, than they are not fit to lead our battles.

I will keep fighting but I have a battle on two fronts - and one of them is at home (dem party).

We bitch about how the rw'ers are like nazis and blindly follow bush and such, well I say some of our people in our party are no better.

We can give up on some battles as we can see they are lost, we need to learn from those to win the war.

WE are willing to fight, and perhaps the best way to fight sometimes is to replace the generals (as Lincoln did in civil war).

MY WORRY: We win in 2006 and 2008 and not much changes because we just put someone in with D after their name. A letter does not a dem make.

[johnaries]

42. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Repubs need 60 votes

FOR cloture, not that we need 41 against. All we have to do is to get ONE of those who "don't support" the filibuster simply to abstain - to be neutral. If they don't vote FOR cloture, then the Repukes don't get the needed 60.

That's it - we need JUST ONE to simply abstain.

Am I not right?

[Marnieworld]

61. You are right

They need 60 votes for cloture. That's the way it should be framed. I can imagine Byrd keeping debate open. I really can. Even Snowe - who knows? The filibuster might be so convincing and passionate that someone might just feel the "spirit" and hop on board. Let's fight this one out and go the distance. Better to fight and lose than surrender.

[Snivi Yllom]

45. boy that was fast , less than a 24 hours buzz and it's over.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x247481

Kerry was incredibly stupid for putting his neck out. Bad politics.

[WilliamPitt]

53. Maybe

Maybe not.

The optimist in me says Kerry simply did the right thing, and earned the respect of the base by doing so. The cynic in me says he did this knowing it was doomed, but wanted to revive his standing with the base in hopes for an '08 run. Political theater and all.

Either way, Kerry comes out of this stronger.

[Snivi Yllom]

72. 'Either way, Kerry comes out of this stronger.'

:rofl:

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. While I don't hold the same view that it's over yet, Will, even I am

trying not to be cynical that Kerry is grandstanding. And that is a hard thing for this diehard Dean Supporter to do. Chin up! We can still make a case with some of our more "wavery" senators. Please don't give up...not yet.

[lapislzi]

70. no, just politics

JK has nothing to lose politically--and maybe something to gain--by supporting filibuster. He plays to his base just like all the others do. He picked up a few points among people like us. People that didn't like him before still don't like him. People on the fence probably aren't paying attention. At best, a zero-sum game.

That's my take on the math, such as it is.

[BootinUp]

47. When was it ever alive? n/t

[bigtree]

52. we did the math

* those still fighting aim to change some senator's minds this weekend.

* longshot, sure, but not out of the realm of possibility.

* not the only 'lost' cause we've fought for either.

* when we fold before the voting starts,

we give leaders comfort to ignore us in the future.

* we shouldn't let a few weakhearted members stop our fight.

* We should show them we won't tolerate senators who don't fight for us.


keep fighting.

[WilliamPitt]

60. Agreed across the board

[stepnw1f]

76. YES (nt)

[cindyw]

66. I still think staging the filibuster is important. The country needs to

see that there are many Democratic Leaders who care about these issues. The filibuster must be attempted if not only to give us a whip count before the primaries. Bryd and Biden I think can survive this, but Landrieu has a problem. Biden I think can end his presidential hopefulness here.

[nickinSTL]

87. absolutely...

and what's more, if the filibuster is staged, we get to see which Dems have the spine to oppose, even if in a losing cause.

That'll make it crystal clear which "Dems" we need to target for replacement by the real thing.

[Greylyn58]

67. You might be correct, but here's what I think

In these days, a man who says a thing cannot be done is quite apt to be interrupted by some idiot doing it
Elbert Hubbard

I will continue to fight until I can no longer do so.

[lapislzi]

77. Always listen to the experts

They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then go do it. (a fave of Lazarus Long)

Having said that, if Will says it, I believe it.

[kid a]

68. This donkey is DEAD!!!

Goodnight DLC!

[Caoimhe]

69. I see this type of concession, leaving the stadium in the 5th

inning, as something people feel they must do so that they can claim they were right when it's over. It does nothing but cause folks to give up calling/writing/speaking up, IMHO.

[WilliamPitt]

71. Or

it's an observation of objective fact as percieved by the writer.

Can't have that.

[clitzpah queen]

105. Jesus, WP, if you had said "Hey, the effort folks have been showing

on pushing for Filibuster has been Wonderful AND (not but) keep in mind that there are a LOT of big issues that need consistent fighting, and good smart warriors contributing all their efforts to them, SO -- don't put ALL your eggs in THIS basket cuz it's looking bleak." maybe you would NOT have gotten as negative a response as you did.
All we get to see in the MSM are the successful Right Wing lobbying campaigns where Their Base keep making endless strides with Their Senators. Here you've had an exciting revving up of progressive citizen activism (albeit a little late)-- and some hints of it having some effects (if it's not all bluster and bullshit) -- and the worse case scenario people will experience is how blatantly our representatives are willing to ignore their base in favor of what---corporate funding?
It just seems stoopid to pull the plug now. There are lessons being learned through individuals' direct involvement that will shape our future organizing.

[Peace Patriot]

108. No, Will, I think your post was a mistake. You helped get the warriors

all lined up, ready to go the distance, ready to fax and call all weekend, ready to really put the pressure on, massively, ready to do battle, hot to do battle, and then you decided to come in and take a hammer to their knees.

Not fair, Will. Not nice. I think you gave in to your "grumpy old man."

You could have passed this info along--about the numbers--in a much different way, in a way that buoyed people's spirits, and energized them to express their views, while warning of a possible defeat. There are a lot of ways you could have done it, without trying to dash all hope, stop all activism, shut people down, make people cry. Your post is nearly as bad as Walt Starr's comment. All hope is dead. Everything is dead. Nobody can change. We can't get our party back. We can't get our country back. Give up.

You don't need to lie to people. But you also don't need to kill their spirits--which is how this post comes across.

The Senate picture, of 60/40 Repub/Dem is the mirror opposite of the country--60/40 anti-Bush, and also, better than 60/40, more like 70/30 anti-Bush policy, revealed in numerous polls. The 40%/Dems Senate has an upward battle to represent the true majority in the country, with only minority power, and with many Dems compromised in many ways (bought and paid for corporatists/war profiteers, corrupt, pro-war, pro-Diebold, fearful, bullied, blackmailed). But we should NEVER FORGET who WE represent! And we should NEVER STOP REPRESENTING the majority, even in rigged uphill battles.

To say just go home--have a nice weekend--in the face of what we all KNOW are rigged numbers--and in awareness that the majority will of the country is being hugely violated, time and again, is neither good strategy, in a long term uphill revolutionary battle, nor is it fair to those who have fought this campaign hard, and see reason to continue, whatever their reasons are. The justice of this campaign is incontestable. It is a civil rights campaign as much as anything. And you simply don't give up on civil rights--ever--no matter what the numbers are.

I think you should NOT have posted this subject line today. I think you should have given more consideration to morale--and to the inherent justice of the cause, and the need--nay, the requirement--that it be expressed.

[Blue Belle]

121. No Kidding... WTF Will??

Wasn't it just earlier this week that you had a post asking who was still fighting?? Who isn't giving up?? Please check in here... wasn't that the premise of that post?? It was a rally call for the fighters and a reality check for the nay-sayers. And now you're doing this this when its crunch time... taking the rug out from under those who are fired up for the fight. By straddling the fence, how does this help our cause? How does it help to rally the pack when we need them the most? Next week when this smug Jackass Alito is being sworn in and our civil liberties are being cast aside, you'll be posting that we should have done more... that we should have fought harder. And we wonder why our Senators give up so easily.

So what if we're calling and faxing empty offices. So what if the email will go unchecked this weekend. These Senators will come in Monday to find faxes all over the floor, and full email and voice mail boxes. Yes, it is a question of math... but we can change the numbers. If it looks bleak now, it just means we have to fight harder.

Isn't that what you really meant to say?

--Belle

[Midlodemocrat]

78. Even if this pans out the way you are saying, Will, I still

think this was huge. The democrats are the minority party and if they are able to come close to a filibuster, I think it strengthens us.

Maybe I'm wrong, it has happened before, but I still think this is a good thing.

[WilliamPitt]

80. No doubt about it

A filibuster was shooting the moon. We came damned close.

[John Q. Citizen]

84. Will, we don't need 41 votes, the Repos need 60 cloture votes. What

about abtaintions?

[WilliamPitt]

88. Post 86

[John Q. Citizen]

81. Repos need 60 yes cloture votes, the Dems don't need 41 no votes.

[WilliamPitt]

86. NYT

"Sixty votes are required for a full Senate vote on Judge Alito. More than 60 senators have already pledged to support him, and the leaders of both parties said they expected to hold the full vote on Tuesday."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/politics/politicsspecial1/27alito.html?hp&ex=1138424400&en=e6f0449cbc54de0c&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[John Q. Citizen]

96. Well we will see. The media also said a filibuster was out of the

question, but they were wrong about that.

It is an uphill battle, it always was from the get go.

I just don't see the point in throwing in the towel until it's done. As you know, 5 days are a long time in politics.

The odds are you are correct, but long shots do happen.

[Puglover]

100. I dunno, as I said earlier.

I can see a Red State Democrats way of thinking if they vote yes for Alito and abstain for cloture. It's a safe position. Voting yea for cloture is fucking the party, making us and especially their fellow senators Kerry et al. look like fools. We need to do all possible to remove any senator who would do that.
And people wonder why the Pukes win and we don't. Jesus.

[burythehatchet]

83. Disagree

You don't vote FOR a filibuster. You vote for cloture. Abstaining from the vote is what we need. Not much of a difference, but enough to provide some hope.

[MikeDuffy]

89. You are a sterling example of what is wrong with the leadership

of this country. We need fighters -- please!

[WilliamPitt]

92. Sorry to disappoint

But I can count.

Keep fighting, let them know this is bullshit, but don't be surprised on Tuesday.

[donheld]

136. Will, America has to hit bottom just like a drunk

Until enough people realize our country, democracy etc. is going away and fast there's not much hope in really turning around. Yes we all faxed, called, e-mailed our fingers to the bone, but far too many ignored the entire thing.

[LizW]

97. That's unfair.

Will Pitt is not in the Senate. He's done a hell of a lot of fighting as a private citizen.

[jillan]

95. So what? Kerry still wins, we still win.

Even if we don't get enough votes, Kerry AND Kennedy sent a message to the
repubs, and the moderate dems that WE DON'T SUPPORT ALITO.

And shrub wanted this Alito nomination wrapped up before the State of the Union
so he could stroke his base and say "Look at what I did for you".
Well guess what? The final vote is the same day as the SOTU. His speech writers
aren't going to be able to put that in his speech. And who do we thank for that?
Kerry and Kennedy, and all of us that are fighting against Alito.

Kerry did the right thing.
Win or Lose. I will support him, and keep fighting, because
the rest of the democratic party needs to know that John Kerry speaks for me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

133. Of course his speech writers will be able to put a reference to Alito

into the SOTUA. They already know the outcome of the vote. Alito will be confirmed by then.

[democrat_patriot]

99. Jeffords is voting NO

Does that help??

Were down by 1 vote? It IS possible to change someones mind.

[Kurovski]

104. Well, it is certainly a good idea to face the reality of the situation.

A little dose of "probably" to help stave off, or at least modify all the anguished drama, rending of robes, and hair-tearing that is bound to come with failure.

The drama that sadistic trolls so love to observe here on DU.

I will personally attempt to maintain some dignity in that regard.

:hide:

[Gregorian]

106. They played dirty, and this is where we ended up.

You're probably right. We'll see what happens next.

I wanted to find a way to restrain this administration before any more damage is done. But legally, we can only do so much.

We are where we are partly because of illegal acts on behalf of the Republican party. So we cannot judge our own party accurately under these circumstances.

It has been very ugly. Especially for Iraqis and American soldiers.


What I have learned today is that this system is dynamic. Sure Alito is a lifetime appointment. But we know what happened with Souter. And we don't know what will happen next. But we cannot blame the Democratic party. It would be like punishing your kid for losing a boxing match where the opponant used brass knuckles under their gloves.

Today I am actually quite proud of many Democrats. I can't say that most are as passionate as we are, on DU. But some are. And I'm especially proud of them.

Injustice has, and is, being done. And it's painful. Bush is raping the country. And others.

What I have learned is that you can't punish yourself when the game isn't being fairly played. And that is what Bush does. I knew it before he got into office. But most Americans were still sleeping.

Let's hope what is around the next corner is just and fair. We've been cheated, and we deserve what's coming to us. Be patient.

[Max Cherry]

107. I agree It's dead .....so whats plan B????????

[PATRICK]

110. I think it is plan B that just died

More accurately, despite our enthusiastic lobbying, I think the last meeting where they hashed out their strategy decided all this. That they had a basic division, ergo, no filibuster ability. That they would present their own positions in such and such a way so as not to murder each other while failing. The "disarray" had a definite sense of plan and organization, an organized retreat with guns blazing for cover. We are in the grimmest time when winning means simply not getting annihilated.

I think it remains to be seen how long the GOP can occupy a growing hostile nation coming together against them while they are preoccupied with looting.

And I don't mean Iraq.

[Jose Diablo]

109. Don't let it get you down, Mr. Pitt

Even if the filibuster doesn't work, it will point-out once again, the Republican party is composed of right-wing ideologues.

We think, right now, it's better if our party maintained a united front in opposing the right-wing. That winning is more important than anything else.

I for one am glad our party contains a spectrum from slightly to the right of middle to the left edge. It does make our party more representative of the people and their needs.

We have seen the Republican Party morph over the years into right-wing fanatics, very close to what I remember the Bircher's were in the 60's. When they joined forces with the dixiecrats, the corporatist/globalists and the religious millennialists the Republican Party turned into this fascist party dominating the political landscape today.

Our party is not at fault in destroying our country. It is the Republicans. Let's keep that in mind before we judge the moderates in our party.

The big problem is, how do we separate these right-wingers from power. It has to be at the polls or on a battlefield. I choose the polls.

But it has to be an honest and fair vote. That is where the correction must be made, if our country is to survive.

Even if Alito is confirmed, our country will survive Alito. The evil is the extremists in the Republican party. That is who must be dislodged.

[Peace Patriot]

120. Yes, and I think the only way to do it is to...

...throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

------------

"The evil is the extremists in the Republican party. That is who must be dislodged."

-----------

They've got it locked down, with 'trade secret,' proprietary programming code, controlled by far rightwing fanatics, Howard Ahmanson (initial funder of ES&S, spinoff of Diebold and its Bush "pioneers").

----------

There is an evil in the Democratic Party leadership, though, and it is their SILENCE about Bushite corporations counting all our votes in secret--whether the result of corruption, collusion, ignorance or fear. THERE SHOULD NOT BE a 60/40 Bushite majority in Congress when the country is 60/40 against Bush, on all issues, and, for the most part, on approval, over a two year period. Things are obviously wa-a-a-y out of whack, and I think the reason is obvious.

----------

We MUST restore our right to vote!

Some resources:

www.votersunite.org (MythBreakers - easy primer on electronic voting)
www.verfiedvoting.org (great activist site)
www.UScountvotes.org (monitoring of '06 and '08 elections)
www.freepress.org
www.TruthIsAll.net
www.solarbus.org/election/index.shtml (fab compendium of all election info)

Also of interest: (Bob Koehler--bad machines in Ohio, recent)
www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20051124ctnbk-a.txt&catid=1824&code=ctnbk

Amaryllis (Diebold, ES&S lavish lobbying of election officials - Beverly Hilton, Aug. '05)
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

and

Sign the petition (Russ Holt, HR 550, great bill-has 169 sponsors). http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html

[coffeenap]

111. Winning would be wonderful, but fighting is good. We still need

the symbolism of the battle, the vision of our Senators standing up and making their presence known. We are begging for something to rally us, something to look at to give us hope. If a "last stand" is what it takes, let it be so. Something, anything, to rally the troops. So many are holding desperately to whatever they can grab--if an ill-fated attempt is what we have, then so be it.(Will, you are a hero to me--please remember what you hold in your hand.)

from a former "angel"

[michiganbuckeye1970]

113. This is why Dems are the minority party in Congress Right Now

No guts. The Dems haven't stopped a goddamn thing from happening...Oh, they made a little fuss about the Patriot Act. It will end up being pushed through with much of its fascist skeletal framework in place. But on some of the big things that have gone on, many Dems are joining in with the Republicans (see bankruptcy reform). I guess when they are up for re-election they want to be able to say, "Hey, no need to vote in a Republican, you basically already have one."

If this is all the Democratic Senators are going to do, then I call for them all to resign. They should demand that each of their replacements be Republicans. At least that way I can be absolutely sure that I know what I'm going to get...

[helderheid]

114. One word: Diebold

[Carni]

115. Even IF this is over we need to continue to be annoying

These Senators that will vote for cloture just figure that once all the hoopla dies down the public *little people* thorns in their sides will go away
(and typically we do)

JMO--I will continue to call and email the people in this party that I have supported time, energy and money to...to voice my displeasure over their spineless conduct regarding Alito DAILY.

That's what the Republicans do and it seems to work!

Alito is so bad that this was worth a try regardless of the result.

I don't believe that they are doing this because their constiuents don't want them to filibuster -- it's easier for them and they just don't care to take the risk.

[never_get_over_it]

117. Respectfully Will

its not over until they vote - I say keep calling - faxing and emailing and tell all your friends - we're in too deep now to stop

[wordpix]

152. keep calling, emailing, faxing, I have contacted my Senators 4x & I'm not

done yet. They will get more communications from me over the wkend right up to Monday's vote!

Don't roll over and be herded to the concentration camps, people!

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

118. Our Own democrats Want Us To Die And Go Away.

That's the sad thing. They're basically telling us to quit and give up, that they've made up their minds already. I think this is the real reason to just do so and realize it's over.

Not bad enough the Fucking repubs pound it into us, or the "liberal" media bashes it into our heads....but several "democratic" elected officials basically say "It's Done!" They don't care, even if you or I do, and THEY MAKE THE RULES! Well, they don't really make the rules, the repubs make the rules, but for this case, the filibuster, they make the rules, and they feel like going along with the repubs on this one.

The repubs know best after all, and we really need to compromise with them more. Our country will be stronger and more united if we just did that. Not my message, but it's the message from some of our democratic "leaders."

[bush_is_wacko]

119. No rest for the weary, here. It doesn't matter to me what they have

said, yet. It's not over till it's over and bombarding them is all we have left. I am disappointed that they chose to announce their intentions but there is always hope they can be swayed until they vote!

[DearAbby]

126. Dammit Will...dont piss in my Weaties..give me the rabbit with the pancake

on his head instead :)

I will keep fighting, my daughter and my grand daughter's future is at stake. As well as the future of my sons are at stake as well.

[stop_the_madness]

130. Unfortunately

I am going to have to agree with you on this one. GREAT JOB everyone....now let's get to work on CHIMPY's IMPEACHEMNT !!!!

[Call Me Wesley]

131. It's not over yet.

Even if it might be what it already is. A weak opposition you have there that turns in too early instead of fighting for it until the end, even with the risk of being defeated. At least you could say that you fought for your beliefs at the end instead of crunching numbers or looking at polls already writing on the honorable resignation speech.

It's not over yet, and it might be my European viewpoint at politics, but I sure have the deepest respect of all of the ones not giving in yet and leave the field but stand up and are willing to follow their beliefs until this one issue is solved (one way or another) to just stand up again preparing for the next issue to come. It's never over, unless you just don't deserve it.

Game over might apply in Poker, but does not in politics. It's way more than just a simple game, and there's a lot at stake now. If Alito gets in, kiss many (more) of your rights goodbye within the next year.

Clean out your party and be very picky of who you vote for the next turns. Activism never ends; it's the voice of the people and where politics step into the individual's life.

It's not over yet. Let's discuss it afterwards. Until then, be active. Show your concerns and stand for your beliefs. Try to change, otherwise the chances will get you, and the only thing you'll have is the bitter-sweet delusion of 'I knew this before, wasn't worth it.' Resignation doesn't help you. It helps the other side a lot. Chose. Wisely.

Not over.

[NastyRiffraff]

138. YES, I will fight

And keep on fighting.

Yes, we may lose. But if we give up, we've already lost. I WILL NOT allow my country to sink into a dictatorship by default.

I will not let Kerry, Kennedy, et al be left twisting in the wind after they stood up for America, by whining that we "can't win."

And if we lose this one, there will be other battles, which we must...MUST fight. The alternatie is unthinkable.

What if...

Abraham Lincoln had slunk away and gone home after his first (or second, or third) political loss?

Thomas Edison had given up after his first try at the light bulb?

George Washington had said "the hell with it" at Valley Forge, when the odds were against that ragged army winning, by any measure?

Our Founding Fathers had thrown up their hands in despair when everything...EVERYTHING was going wrong with this "great experiment"?

We can lose, and definitely we will lose some battles. but we WILL lose honorably.

And who knows? We just may beat the odds (and the "head count" Heads and counts can change, too)

[knitter4democracy]

139. Screw that!

It's on! We're all calling, e-mailing, and I'm thinking of picketing my senator's office on Monday.

I'm am proud today that I voted for Sen. Kerry and worked to get him elected in 2004. I've been upset with him for months, but he finally started acting like the leader he is. I believe that the vote is too far away and that we still have time to twist arms.

I'm not giving up, and neither should any Democrat. We are the party of the people, and we will be heard!

[LSK]

140. no chance of a Republican defecting?

[cascadiance]

144. I guess folks like Specter can no longer claim to be pro-choice then!

Voting for cloture by them is in effect voting for bringing down Roe v. Wade. This should be said over and over to their constituents!

[LibertyorDeath]

141. Thanks for the Inspiration Will.

That's just so fucking helpful

[WilliamPitt]

142. If you want someone to blow sunshine up your ass

go outside with a sunlamp and a fan.

[liam_laddie]

146. SOTU action?

Wm R Pitt - your never replied to my PM re: an alternate to
the walkout. What do you think? Still pushing the walkout?
I prefer a more media-visible and effective, less spinable
action, as I described. A case of NIH?

[LibertyorDeath]

148. You don't get off that easy sunshine

You know people here look to you
You don't ask them to but they do all the same
You have some influence at this site
and at this crucial point this is what you choose to post

What about asking fellow DUers to keep fighting to the very last
minutes in a situation like this. You know politics can turn on a dime.

[sundancekid]

143. STFU - ever heard of ABSTAIN on a cloture vote?? they don't get 60

votes, and our guys can get some political cover all at the same time ...

whatever happened to you sitting down and shutting up like you posted you would elsewhere???

to paraphrase the great Jack: take your crazy debbie-downer sh*t elsewhere, we're all filled up here

on edit: senator ben nelson's office just told me they are in fact "tallying" the calls and faxes to see what final position on cloture and on the vote the senator will take; it seems that he is having to consider all this latest input from the american people! ... also, feinstein has declared on her website her change of position, and will now vote "no" on cloture after all the massive "input" of calls etc. that she's reviewed (remember, that she had announced last sunday on face the nation that a filibuster was a no-go, because there didn't seem to be a need or call for it ...

KEEP CALLING/FAXING/PRAYING/IMPLORING/ETC. each of us!!!!

[clitzpah queen]

145. Hey Will, does your latest post here mean your Apology in the other

thread was hype? Why bait people here if you acknowledge that your last communication was incomplete? Why didn't you just ask the mods to lock this thread? Methinks you are dicking us around......

[WilliamPitt]

147. Methinks you can tend to your own knitting

and not worry about mine.

I responded to an obnoxious post. Period.

[KAZ]

150. IMHO, Will will never have anything to apologize about.

His stack of chits are formidable.

BUT, let's give the filibuster call-a-thon a try anyway. Kind of stretch our legs, on the grass roots front. Let's show what we can do!

KAZ

[radio4progressives]

149. jesus Will, we are in the middle of trench war fare... c'mon man

we need to WIN this battle...

doncha think we can save the reality show, for a later time?

[The Onyx Key]

151. Yes. Now focus on Impeachment? I was skeptical before,

but some friends have convinced me that maybe there is an outside shot...

[smartvoter]

153. Not to be rude, but I hope you have to eat every one of those words. nt

[LeftCoast]

154. Locking

Per OP request.