You know, Pastor Ted wasn't nearly as bad as some others.

[El Supremo]

Denver Post editorial
Haggard and tolerance
The evangelical leader has often been a sensible voice of moderation when others were more strident in their beliefs. He faces legal scrutiny and the judgment of congregants.

For years, the Rev. Ted Haggard has been one of the more moderate voices on the evangelical Christian scene. As a nationally prominent pastor with a 14,000-member mega-church in Colorado Springs, his brand of Christianity always has been about hating the sin and not the sinner.

Now, it would seem that the reverend needs a little tolerance himself....

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_4599331

[Bluebear]

1. He campaigned against same-sex unions & marriage.

He fired bullets at us from inside of his sacred little closet. He disgusts me.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. Interesting that his church has thrown him out...

What happened to forgiveness and saving sinners? I can see removing him from his position of authority, but throwing him out of the church is kind of extreme. WWJD. (Or did I misread that story -- I just skimmed it.)

[gfnrob]

3. The 14000 member mega-church has been about $$$$$

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

4. Did he or did he not lead the sheeple to W & Company?

Serious question.

[El Supremo]

6. He also had photos of Clinton and Carter in his office.

[Obamarama]

34. I don't care if he had pictures of Mahatma Ghandi in his office....

The piece of shit deserves to twist in the wind.

[madinmaryland]

5. He is still a hater.

Fuck him.

[ecstatic]

7. did he ever endorse a democratic candidate?

Well then, how was he not as bad as the others?

[bluestateguy]

8. He put a happy-smily face on a hateful agenda

So I'll give him that.

[Kingshakabobo]

28. That was the meth - grinding teeth....nt

[dogday]

9. And there shall come many deceiving in my

name and saying they are of me... Wow be unto you that I say many shall be deceived by them....

Or something like that :shrug:

[MADem]

10. Oh, yes, he WAS. He was part of that Xtian News Network "Marriage" Lalopalooza

they had on TV a few years back. Just because a newspaper SAYS he was tolerant doesn't mean that he was. Perhaps he didn't advocate 'burnin' them queers at the stake' and instead just wanted to geld the males and send the women off to labor camps!!!

[Greybnk48]

11. "Hating the sin, and not the sinner" is an old Falwellism

going back to the 70's after Falwell got in trouble for saying "God hates homosexuals." Many think it was contrived to get attention. Once he got said attention, he claimed he mispoke and that "God hates homosexuality, not homosexuals." At least that's the first I ever heard of this tricky way of maintaining hatred covertly.

Sorry, but I think the majority of these hate peddlers are in fact evil, not to mention greed driven.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. A cow turd doesn't smell "as bad" as dog turd.

But, finding either in your living room is disgusting.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

16. ROTFLMAO

:rofl:

[upi402]

50. I call your ROTFLMAO

and up you a pissed in pants.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Do cats agree with the dogtird assessment? Is the source verified?

[KayLaw]

13. Come on.

There are worse? I watched the YouTube video the British guy made and Haggard is a whack job.

[liberal N proud]

14. All these mega churches are about is $$$$$$$$$

[longship]

15. Forget moderation. Watch the Dawkins/Haggard video

It's in the Video Forum.

Chilling. Absolutely chilling.

He's reaped the whirlwind of his arrogant, smarmy existence.

[El Supremo]

21. I saw it. Dawkins is an atheist.

I find many atheists as intolerant as many fundamentalists. I don't believe either one of them. I think evolution is part of God's work.

[longship]

36. Excuse me. I am an atheist.

And I like neither being demonized, nor stereotyped by Christians who, for some strange reason, seem to be the *only* religious sect in this country to be so openly opposed to atheists.

I have a right to my beliefs just as any theist does. I happen to agree with Dawkins on many issues, probably many more than I do many theists, especially those who would use their beliefs to cast aspersions on atheists.

I am in very good company. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, George Washington were Deists. Their so-called God was the clock winder who set the clockwork universe on its way some 14 billion years ago never again to interfere with its workings. Nobody can read the writings of the founders and believe that their First Amenedment wasn't written to keep strong theists from undermining a secular government which would allow Deists and atheists to participate.

I take great umbrage to your kind of response.
Thanks for the chance to voice my opinion.

[El Supremo]

38. I stand proved.

I don't think Deists were the same thing as Atheists. BTW, I was an Agnostic for most of my life.

[longship]

41. The only difference between an atheist and a Deist

is their theories on origin of the universe.

About your former agnosticism, I don't care how you justify your attempted slam at atheists, I still do not like it.

I respect your views and would much appreciate it if you would respect mine.
Being an atheist is in no way a bad thing. It's just a different belief system.

[El Supremo]

42. You have a right to believe whatever you want.

And so do I.

[longship]

43. I am perfectly aware of Christian's right to their views.

Yes. Dawkins *is* an atheist. So am I. It is altogether apparent that you consider that this makes both of us somehow less of a human being.

What is it about Christians that they are so needful to express that they have the right to their views. For Christ sakes, Christians are by far the majority religion in this country. But, if you *understand* the founders words, you'll be *perfectly* aware that the reason for the First Amendment in the first place was to eliminate the tyranny of the majority over a religious minority. Like Muslims. Like Jews. Like Hindus. And like atheists.

We are all equals under the Constitution. Get used to it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. Is Dawkins that guy who is attempting to "disprove" God using the

Humanistic Paradox, Multiverse Theory, and Evolutionary Psychology to prove that there's just "no need for God" because the universe has no rules and advances the Straussian hypothesis that religion keeps humans from killing themselves/each other and is thus selected for?

Those guys are nutters on par with the people that try to prove God exists using creationism.

[rockymountaindem]

45. El Supremo didn't even attack you or atheism

All he said was that he finds *some* atheists as unpalateable as some fundamentalists, and that he's not in either camp. That's hardly offensive or a slam at atheists. Why the tirades?

[AlinPA]

17. I saw an interview with him about evolution vs creationism; he seemed

as bad as the others in not believing science and did not seem sensible to me.

[QC]

18. He did advocate dealing with global warming.

I'm no fan of the guy, but he was far from being the most radical of his kind. I wish more prominent evangelicals would speak out on environmental issues.

[Lerkfish]

19. everything else aside, he ADMITS TO wanting to purchase meth!

forgetting orientation for a moment, this is a religious leader with a straight line to the white house, and he's out buying street meth.

that, in and of itself is admitting to illegal activity. i could care less if he is also gay, frankly.

[Bluebear]

20. And buying meth/hookers/motel rooms with donations.

I would imagine all his salary comes from his faithful giving their hard-earned dollars...for THIS!

[Lerkfish]

23. I can hear the fund drive sermon now....

...and I want to thank our 3rd grade sunday school class for selling lemonade and cookies door to door this month.
They raised 48 dollars. now, now, susie, come up here......(applause) Isn't she cute, folks?
ok, now susie. Remember that pastor asked you to raise 250 dollars?
Well, 48 dollars is nice and all, but that doesn't even pay for ten minutes of the special massage the pastor is used to.
and 48 dollars only buys enough crystal meth to keep him flying for an hour.

c'mon now, where is your christian committment! get out there and sell more cookies so the pastor can score some more meth and some more guys with six pack abs!

[Bluebear]

25. 'the special massage'

:)

[El Supremo]

22. I'm just saying that Falwell, Robertson and Dobson are A-holes.

Haggard was more a B-hole.

[El Supremo]

24. Here is another story showing the moderate views of Haggard

Preaching for Crank, Pounding the Christian Coalition
Aug 02, 2006 -- 4:32 PM MDT
Cara DeGette

The acrimony between the campaigns of 5th Congressional Republican candidates Jeff Crank and Doug Lamborn is reaching a zenith, with the two camps continuing to skirmish over a Christian Coalition mailer that accused Crank, along with Lionel Rivera, of being aligned with the ?radical homosexual agenda.?

The charismatic leader of the 14,000-member New Life megachurch has even entered the fray. During his July 23 Sunday sermon, Pastor Ted Haggard ? who is also the president of the National Association of Evangelicals ? accused the Christian Coalition of being un-Christian, practicing yellow journalism and twisting the facts.
Cara DeGette :: Preaching for Crank, Pounding the Christian Coalition
Haggard stopped just short of outright endorsing Jeff Crank from the pulpit, which would have been a violation of federal law that prohibits churches from endorsing specific political candidates.

? didn?t say, ?Vote for Jeff,?? says Rob Brendle, the church?s associate pastor, who is publicly supporting Crank. ?He said the Christian Coalition piece did not accurately represent Crank or Mayor Rivera, and that? people who are Christian should be telling the truth.?

After the Christian Coalition mailer was sent out, Colorado state Sen. Lew Entz rescinded his endorsement of Lamborn, and threw his support behind Crank. Disgusted over the stunt, State Rep. Larry Liston endorsed Crank. And, two volunteers left the Lamborn campaign, and are now camping with Crank.

In a July 31 posting, the neo-libertarian blogger Rossputin declared "The more you know the less you like Lamborn, and urged Republicans to support Crank.

The other four Republican candidates running in the six-man race to replace Rep. Joel Hefley have largely sidestepped the scandal.

But, with less than a week until the Aug. 8 primary, Lamborn?s campaign manager rejected any negative fallout, and accused the Crank machine of ?manufacturing a backlash? that just doesn?t exist.?

?It?s all part of the Jeff Crank spin machine,? said Jon Hotaling. ?This is symptomatic of the final days of campaign where Jeff Crank realizes he?s trailing in the polls and is so desperate to get the seat right now he is just flailing at Doug.?

To which Crank?s campaign manager Jim Banks responded: ?Um, where do I start? This isn?t being manufactured, this is something that has blown up in the Hotaling brothers? face.?

Jon Hotaling, Banks noted, is the brother of Mark Hotaling ? who runs the Christian Coalition of Colorado, which sent the mailings. (The orgnization has also posted talking points attacking Rivera and Crank, which can be read at Cut to the facts in the 5th CD?.

And, Banks says, there is no record that the Christian Coalition legitimately obtained the list of addresses from the El Paso County Clerk & Recorder. Suspecting the Lamborn campaign of collusion with the Christian Coalition, Bob Gardner, a Crank supporter, has since filed a complaint with the Federal Elections Commission.

http://www.coloradoconfidential.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=271

[originalpckelly]

26. "Preaching for Crank" OMG! ROFL!!! The exact slang for meth!!!!!!!

I suppose that's what he was doing all these years!!!
:rofl:

Moderation my ass, this guy was aggressive/nutty probably because he was on meth.

[Raine]

27. He had the correct stand

on global warming. I have no sympathy for a hypocrite but still it's a shame that one of the really extremist ones hasn't been caught with their pants down yet.

[rockymountaindem]

29. That's the truth

I get some really, really bad vibes from people like Dobson, Falwell et. al., but Haggard was never one like that. He was always a little less "holier than thou" than the crew he ran with.

[El Supremo]

30. Thanks. Maybe I just don't like to beat up a person who's down.

Pastor Ted was pretty weird but he did not directly preach hate. I hated his mega-church which preys on the poor and undereducated just like my local Heritage Christian Center. But they have their right to believe as they wish. I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, but if others want to, let them. But when they want to make homosexuality or abortion illegal, we must stop them.

[Bluebear]

31. Like he beat gays who were down with his staunch opposition to gay rights.

[Obamarama]

35. Why the FUCK are you sticking up for this piece-of-shit waste of carbon?

This Mother Theresa complex people seem to have formed (re: feeling sorry for Ted Haggard) in more than a couple threads is really working my last nerve. Yeah, it is a culture war....and I don't intend to lose it to a bunch of holy-roller nut jobs. So, you go sing Kumbaya and feel sorry for Ted. Just get out of the way so I can kick the bastard while he's down.

[Bluebear]

44. Sing it. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

49. And I'd rather not intend to see Dems lose an election so a bunch of culture warriors

Can take the "let's out gay Republicans" engine and drive it over a cliff, just like the non-issue "gay marriage" BS (a majority of gays polled said they don't need or want "marriage" in 2004, whereas a majority of all Americans supported civil unions in 04 and stuill do) and used the "marriage issue to drive Kerry's campaign off the cliff, somewhat deliberately in the case of folks who said Kerry wouldn't win anyway. Meanwhile, this Haggard guy SUPPOSEDLY was not opposed to civil unions, according to his colleagues who were interviewed on TV.

Marriage is not a federal issue, BTW, so yes, I have problems outing random gay religious leaders because of some percieved culture war in order to "redefine marriage at the federal level".

Then we will hear from Big Business about how liberalism is all about cultural issues and we should accept the DLC spin, and those people who DO believe in the culture war will play along and say "well, the DLC is right, we're in the minority in this godforsaken country" and never you mind all those other issues that Dems used to run on, because we're too pure to work with folks like Haggard to try and put a stop to the politicization of religion instead of outing them.

[Bluebear]

51. This was not a "random gay religious leader".

>>>and used the "marriage issue to drive Kerry's campaign off the cliff<<

So, gay marriage drove the campaign off the cliff, did it?

[Leopolds Ghost]

53. According to polls, yes.

If "cultural left" (many of whom are NOT on the economic left and admitted to being not particularly hurt by CLASS warfare that has been raging unchecked in this country for the past 15 years) had done the sensible thing and pushed for civil unions, which polls said a majority of Americans and even some conservative Republicans like McCain support, then the debate (and election, which was mostly turned into a referendum about gay marriage in states like Ohio) would have gone very differently.

Instead, people took an uncompromising attitude on a subject (against the advice of many gay commentators who are in politics) when "Marriage" should not even be recognized or rewarded by the Feds: it is not a government institution and nobody has any business legislating marriage!

Meanwhile, I continue to read about how "Kerry would have lost anyway" and "so many of us are not really hurt by what's going on in this country economically, but we oppose it all the same" (now there's a big winner) and "The war is a difficult issue, but what we really don't like is Bush's narrow-mindedness and cultural backwardness!" They are Rockefeller Republicans.

[Bluebear]

54. Cite your "poll" please. Who did it, "Concerned Women of America"?

[Leopolds Ghost]

57. This was all over the place in 2004 saying that it WOULD cost Kerry the election

Look it up yourself. Washington Monthly, Counterpunch, Andrew Sullivan, numerous LEFT commentators who SUPPORTED gay rights saw the refusal to accept civil unions as foolish all or nothingism that would (and did, in Ohio) cost Dems the election. Imagine if A. Philip Randolph had carried thru on his threat to Roosevelt and you have a comparable situation.

Polls correctly cited, then and now, that a majority of Americans support civil unions and oppose redefining marriage (which the government has no business promoting or legislating anyway.)

If you think that is the "Concerned Women of America" position, you'll probably take issue with any number of left commentators who are insufficiently concerned with your preferred culture war issues that do nothing but distract people from their real problems -- such as the fact that all these laws exist subsidizing married homeowners at the expense of renters unmarried couples, and single moms in the first place.

Or how fucked up health care is that privacy rules are so puritanical as to bar "non family members" when in other countries the individualistic, materialistic notion of the 3-person nuclear family is not worshipped and put on a pedestal to the exclusion of the extended family and community.

As numerous gay commentators have noted, the "gay marriage" fight is just their version of the "civil rights activists seeking mainstream upper-middle-class respectability so they can vote their pocketbooks without qualms, after they are just like everyone else in the 'honorary white people' world of the upper-middle-class".

[Bluebear]

58. I know it was all over the place in '04 and it was NOT true.

The "values voters" it seems, included ALL 'values', not just gay themes. Of course, the GLBT community was conveniently blamed.

[Maven]

66. Andrew Sullivan is not a "left" commentator

Also, I'm curious, since you're apparently so "in tune" with the gay community, whither these "polls" showing a majority of gays don't want or need gay marriage?

As another poster noted in another thread, we WILL keep pushing, with or without your consent. And reading posts like yours only makes me want to push harder.

[Jamastiene]

52. Is is always going to be the gays' fault? I wonder.

I mean who is to say that if less centrists got in the way the pro-gay candidate wouldn't win? Even North Carolina is moving toward a bluer state of mind lately. I'll never get married. Oh well.

[Leopolds Ghost]

55. Obviously, if folks feel the need to single out closeted GAY Repubs

As if they are responsible for following the lead of their far more conservative STRAIGHT brethren when they are merely voting their pocketbooks, just like social liberals do in wealthy inner city neighborhoods that churn out DLC candidates (see: recent article on DU praising San Francisco's DLC mayor for kicking the homeless off welfare rolls.)

Apparently it's OK to deny others (homeless, working poor) tangible assistance so long as other people can live together and call their relationship marriage and get attendant homeowner tax credits. Why does anyone care what your government calls it? They have no business in private civil affairs.

The reality is, too many folks yawned when they saw that their efforts were counter-productive, just like has happened with countless "vanguard movements" that fell out of favor in the popular consciousness, and took it as a signal to "damn the center-left, full speed ahead!" Including the right-wing fundamentalists. Same thing happened to the antiwar movement.

Even folks who supported redefining marriage warned that it was foolish to not accept civil unions, pointing out that all civil rights movements had relied on compromise, incremental gains, and winning over public sentiment even when a majority within the movement favored radical change.

[NMMNG]

61. Us, and the uppity women who won't let others control their wombs.

Because the entire free world hinges on gay marriage and abortion, don't you know? :sarcasm:

[readmoreoften]

68. Yeah and a lot of people on the "cultural left" happen to also be on the

"economic left" and a lot of people on the "cultural right" happen to be on the "economic right" so let's not turn this into another BORING and ABSURD thread about how "affluent and reckless" homosexuals have destroyed the party for "hardworking family-oriented" Americans. Spare me this tripe. Many people on the "cultural left" are out there busting their ass every day for unions, fair taxation, and solid public education. Don't even try those right wing talking points.

[Binka]

56. Did These Asshole Bastards Ever Show Any EMPATHY For The Left?

Did Ted ever ask his flock to embrace Michael Moore? Susan Sarandon? Cindy? Exhort his motley crew to PROTEST the war? The minute men? Taxes for the rich?

Fuck this nasty, vile, greedy, arrogant, shitty, vacuous, stupid, vain, malicious, manipulative, vindictive, smarmy, smug, fraudulent PIECE OF MOTHER FUCKING EXCREMENT.

FUCK YOU TED!

Shame on you El Supremo for posting this ridiculous thread.

[Bluebear]

59. Marry me!

See, you converted one! :)

[Binka]

62. Well Since I've Formally Declared My Eunuch Celibacy Status

You might want to rethink your offer.:evilgrin: I've given up on love or perhaps it has given up on me, either way I just want to be an old crone who drinks wine and rides her bike. Yes I have done both simultaneously. I was also naked but we need to go to the lounge to discuss that.:loveya:BB or for old times sake PlasticTurkeys!

[Rowdyboy]

32. All of them make me queasy, but Haggard was less offensive than most

How I wish it was Dobson....

[Pithlet]

39. Oh, that would have been beautiful.

If I had to pick, Dobson would have been the one I'd love to see fall. It really is saying a lot that Haggard isn't even the worst of the worst. Dobson is a monster.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. The sweaty guy Parlsey

is gross, but I used to watch Jimmy Swaggart because he could TEAR UP on the piano! I never watched Haggard. Is the guy who looks like The Joker still at the Crystal Cathedral? His face fascinated me. And the babe with the pink hair on TBN...better than SNL. She is awesome.

[AnnInLa]

37. And yet, he was leader of a campaign to proselytize

to the people attending the military academy there in CO. Is it the Air Force Academy? Anyone remember that flap?

"Like many on the Left, I hope that someday gay Americans like Ted Haggard can live their lives without being harassed by the likes of, well… Ted Haggard."

[El Supremo]

40. You're right!

But hell, it is across the highway from him!

Just what would you do with the famous chapel at the academy? Tear it down?

Proselytizing no. Worship yes.

[Quixote1818]

46. True, but anyone who says the Bible doesn't contradict it's self is just stupid!

And dangerous! Of course I don't think he really believed in what he was saying but that big nice house was just too awesome let go of.

[Leopolds Ghost]

48. An uncomfortable-looking colleague said Haggard *supported* civil unions

And he "respectfully disagreed" with Haggard who he "considered a friend". This was on TV.

[Maven]

67. I find that incredibly hard to believe

nor does it really make a difference.

[Skittles]

60. "hating the sin but not the sinner" is absolute horseshit

they hate EVERYTHING that doesn't fit into their little whitebread world

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. The only thing that slogan brings with it is a condescending attitude

And either weird looks or sermons.

[bobbolink]

64. No, he wasn't the "worst"

I'm quite ambivalent. I'm glad any of them get busted for hypocrisy, but I wish it hadn't been Ted Haggard.

He was preaching to his followers about poverty, and what Jesus said about caring for poor folk.

As a Methodist minister I know said, "He isn't singing from my hymn book, but if he's going to get involved with poverty issues, then welcome aboard."

This is a bigger blow for us poor folk than it is a boon to Dems.

[Lindacooks]

65. About that 'hating the sin and not the sinner' BS:

I see a lot of hate all the way around; they hate the sinner too. There is NO love in those people. They hate everything.