Attempting filibuster is commendable for blue states senators, but

[BigYawn]

please don't hold grudge against red state senators. If they
fight for filibuster, it will cost them votes. AND FILIBUSTER
DOES NOT STOP ALITO SINCE REPUKES HAVE 55 SENATORS AND THE
NUCLEAR OPTION. So I think the red state senators are taking
the most pragmatic action. It helps us to keep as many (even DINO)
dem senators as is possible.

[ewoden]

1. What we really need is pictures of Alito naked with farm animals

[jobycom]

3. Or with a liberal. That might upset Bush's base more than farm animals.

[leftstreet]

4. You just made Mrs. Alito cry

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ewoden]

7. Why, is she into farm animals?

[mark11727]

19. Every time Mrs Alito cries...

...an angel gets its wings!

O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)
O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)
O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)
O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)
O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)

"Get me..! I'm givin' out WINGS..!" :evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

2. They don't have to vote "for" anything...they can simply abstain.

We don't need 41 "no" votes...we need THEM to not get 60 "yes" votes.

An abstention would be as valuable as a "no" vote.

[BigYawn]

6. No argument there, but my main point is that Alito gets in regardless

of success of filibuster, since they have 55 repukes in senate and
the option to go nuclear. All I am saying is I can understand why a
lot of red state senators may vote for cloture. I don't want any
democrats getting mad at them.

[MercutioATC]

10. It'll be interesting to see if the Repubs use that option...

If they do, there's some great spin to be had...

[BigYawn]

13. I am gonna go sleepless until tuesday to find out

[MercutioATC]

14. So I guess "BigYawn" will be especially appropos...

:)

[BigYawn]

15. I am just telling like it is....I will not get mad at any red state senato

who votes against filibuster. Do I want Alito to get
hit by a mack truck? You are damn right I wish that.
But wishing is one thing, reality is another.

[Wordie]

11. Right! And last I saw a count, there were 56 votes for Alito.

Three of those, I believe, are Dems. 10 votes have not been declared. (These may be somewhat old numbers, but not that much has changed.)

So they are at this point, assuming all of those who voted for Alito will vote for cloture (big assumption - will all those Rs be willing to give up the filibuster? Will the pro-Alito Dems?), still 4 votes shy of having enough for the nuclear option.

[BigYawn]

22. My understanding is they need 51 votes for nuke option and confirm

Alito into scotus.

[Wordie]

40. You're right...

I shouldn't have been posting last night...too exhausted to think straight. Sorry.

[KainNero]

5. No what we need is

evidence that Alito got a BJ...

[ewoden]

8. I'll bet we can find somebody in CAP who will wipe their chin

[0007]

43. Some one must'a polished his knob some where, eh?

[babylonsister]

9. Screw the votes. It's now all about principle, morals, a

definite difference then where our country has been heading.
Honestly, who will suffer irreparable damage? Liebermann is
voting with his conscience for a change. I say, vote your conscience!

[BigYawn]

12. Red state dem senators are in a no-win situation, let us cut them slack

[babylonsister]

16. How? Please enlighten me! nt

[BigYawn]

18. Simple, if they vote for filibuster they will lose votes in their states

and even if filibuster were to succeed, IT DOES NOT STOP ALITO
unless an airplane crashes into the repug side of the congressional building
and kills a dozen of them. 55 senators can vote in the nuclear option
and vote ALito in to SCOTUS. There is no way to stop that.

So what is to be gained by the red state senators and those such
as sen Byrd who is up for re-election by losing even a few votes in
those closely contested states?

[babylonsister]

25. Lose votes from whom? Who agrees, despite the repug

spin! And as far as Byrd goes, he's in his 80's. He should vote his conscience!
Damnit, I wish these people would take a stand and vote for truth and honesty. It's
either going to be exhibited now or later regarding how bad Alito is.
And I fear we will all suffer when that happens.

[EFerrari]

17. It does no good to have a DINO who votes with the THUGGERY.

We're not putting up with that any more and even DINOs like Feinstein are finally getting it.

[BigYawn]

20. It does help when they vote in the majority leader and they vote more

for our side than the opposition. Now, I will agree,
thoose who vote with the repukes more often, they might as
well switch. But even those are useful in gaining us
chairmanships in committees and majority leader etc.

[BigYawn]

21. Folks all I am saying is do not get pissed at red state senators...

it does us no good....

Thanks for the responses, I am going to hit the sack so good night.

[flyarm]

29. there are no red states..this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

you are buying all the bullshit * psyopp crap!

fly

[Lexingtonian]

23. Calm down, please....

I think the overall danger to the Red State senators is somewhat exaggerated as a factor. It's easier to explain it and rationalize things that way, but my impression is that the pull is a bit different.

I'd guess the bottom line rationale for these Senators is that Alito and the people who want him are fools and a perceptibly declining movement. And they have to handle the Christian Right as you do a dying but vehement and nasty relative- the worse their condition gets, the more explicitly accommoding you have to be in some ways to avoid the grotesque behavior and ignobility they'll resort to. But the objective truth of the situation is that while you give them much of the things you denied them before, they can only do little harm with it now, unlike before. You have to give them at least a token of what they feel most entitled to while they were strong, though.

For the other Senators, such as my two Bay Staters organizing the Resistance, no one's saying so in the open but it's all about making Republicans at all levels use up as much current political capital as possible on Alito- making the price high- and creating a base to work off of for the next such fight. We don't want the White House and RNC to believe they can foist another 180 proof Right winger of the sort on the Senate the next time around, which they will if they think they can intimidate and cajol the Senate moderates as thoroughly they did this time. (It's not just Johnson or Byrd, I mean the Republican ones more so- Specter, Snowe, etc.)

[BigYawn]

24. Every dem senator who votes against filibuster might have a different

reason to do so. The cold hard fact is that the repugs have
a majority in senate. It takes a simple majority to change
the filibuster rule as apllied to confirmation of SCOTUS nominees.

And it takes a simple majority of 51 to confirm.

Therefore if some dem senator thinks it is in his or her interest,
for whatever reason, to not go along the filibuster, we do not gain
a thing by getting mad at them and holding off support or whatever.

A SUCCESSFUL FILIBUSTER DOES NOT STOP ALITO!!

But I still am in favor of attempting a filibuster and forcing the
repugs to go nuclear if filibuster is successful.

[K-W]

26. It wont cost them votes, Alito is a hardcore conservative.

Hardcore conservatives dont vote for democrats anyway.

And this bs about Americans not liking filibusters is silly. Americans like people who take a stand for what they believe.

People dislike Democrats because the Republicans bully them around and they take it, not because the Democrats are too obstructionist.

[K-W]

27. And there is no such thing as a red state,

this whole thread is premised upon a gross oversimplification of the population.

The simple fact of the matter is that acting along with the status quo, ie playing into the current political leanings of people, is a sure way to make sure the Republicans stay in power. We win by changing the color of states not by reinforcing thier conservatism.

[uppityperson]

60. No RED states, just shades of purple.

[flyarm]

28. NONSENCE IF THEY GOT ELECTED IN A RED STATE...

THAT MEANS they were supported by dems ..their base is dem!!

and damn it..i hate this red and blue crap..we are American..what is voted in one state we all pay for !!

and besides we in so called ( bs) blue states keep the so called red states going with our tax dollars!

you vote for those who brung you!
and besides..we are not asking them to save their asses..we are telling them as their employers to save our asses..and our nation..some things are bigger than one person! or one politician!

in my 54 yrs nothing has been a bigger crisis ..other than the murder of Kennedy!

fly

[Roho]

32. Bingo

Elected red state Dem's HAVE NO EXCUSE.
If we can't rely on Democrats elected in red states to vote for Democratic principles what's the point of caring what happens to them. Their numbers in the ranks obviously mean nothing, they might as well be republicans.

If they were elected in the first place being a Democrat obviously isn't an impediment to getting elected so they should ACT LIKE DEMOCRATS.

[applegrove]

30. I agree.

[Roho]

33. Whats the point

Why are we saving these seats if we can't ever rely on them when the chips are down?

[applegrove]

34. The chips are down because we don't have the seats. Not smart

for Red Staters to make a politically short term gain at the expense of the elections in 2006.

That is what matters most. Once Dems win a majority.. then they can do a few real investigations.

[Roho]

35. chicken and egg

first i think the seats are much closer than you think. we got 10 more today and i personally think many are avoiding coming out until monday to avoid a weekend full of attack ads.

second we don't have the seats because they are hedging.

imo if they were elected as Dem's then the core principles of the party are not an impediment to getting elected.

btw your sophie's choice post last night is still bouncing around inside my head. cheers

[applegrove]

36. Yeah. It is what sociopaths do. Kerry's "first I voted for the 80 Billion"

was one. The documentary "the architect" went into that and how Rove's people were just sitting there waiting for him to make that choice.

Diminshing is what they do. They diminish their enemies. Swiftboating, tribalizing (playing people off against each other), sophie's choices. The list goes on from there.

[radio4progressives]

31. Personally I'm fucking fed up with Red States having to bring this country

down and backward several generations. it always comes to this.

it's always against THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS!!!

[PBass]

37. I don't think the Red state senators are going to lose any votes

that they would have had if they didn't vote for the fillibuster.

I am CONSTANTLY hearing people say "Both parties are the same, I can't tell them apart". (That was Ralph Nader's platform!) This is one issue where Dem senators can differentiate themselves from the Right.

Everybody I know who is a democrat is sick and tired of electing Democratic officials who don't fight for what they believe in!

If somebody like Joe Biden or Evan Bayh won't stand up and fight the Alito nomination, how can I expect him to stand up and fight on important issues as my President???

[bunkerbuster1]

38. Because Red State residents love wimps? Men who don't fight?

I don't buy this line of argument at all.

It only works if you think that spinelessness is a virtue.

I have more respect for my fellow Red State voters than that; don't you?

[BigYawn]

47. Red state senators SHOULD fight, but if they decide that

it won't stop Alito confirmation, and THEY decide it is
in the party's interest to keep a democrat in th senate,
then I for one will not hold it against them.

Again, it takes only 51 senators to change senate rule regarding
fiflibustering of judicial appointees. And it takes only 51 senators
to confirm any rogue appointee. The filibuster in the current situation
is nothing more than a release of emotion. In cold, hard political world,
that is not usually the best option.

[B Calm]

39. SCREW this logic! They are suppose to represent for the democrats

in their Red state!

[BigYawn]

53. By definition, democrats are a minority in red states...

all I am saying is that the anger expressed here against
those democrat senators is ill-advised.

[B Calm]

58. I seriously doubt the people who voted for them are republicans!

[Wordie]

41. Shouldn't they all be able to make the point that this *transcends*

partisan politics (and is NOT about abortion), but concerns a threat to the liberties that so many of our ancestors have fought for?. Even centrists should be able to get behind that. Judge Alito is the extremist, not the Dems. It's ironic that it should be the RW extremists painting the filibuster as extreme, when it's being waged to keep a Judge with extremist views off the bench.

These centrist Dems need to lead, and explain to their constituents what's at stake.

[Totally Committed]

42. In a nutshell, this is one of the main things wrong with our system today:

Attempting filibuster is commendable for blue states senators, but please don't hold grudge against red state senators. If they fight for filibuster, it will cost them votes. AND FILIBUSTER DOES NOT STOP ALITO SINCE REPUKES HAVE 55 SENATORS AND THE NUCLEAR OPTION. So I think the red state senators are taking the most pragmatic action. It helps us to keep as many (even DINO) dem senators as is possible.

This "pragmatism", which has replaced "doing the right thing" or "voting one's conscience" is, along with corporate influence and money, the crux of the problem the Democratic Party finds itself in today. Where is the altruism, the righteous principle that used to be the hallmark of this Party? It it has been relaced by this cynical win-at-any-cost, screw-the-people-and-thecountry-I-need-to-get-reelected "pragmatism", and it makes me sick! These pragmatic Democrats can just kiss my whatsis. I want some real heroes back in office. To hell with pragmatism!!!

TC

[BigYawn]

49. Pragmatism will always trump emotional satisfaction...

What would you rather have? 40 dem senators or 35 real, hard core dems
and 15 DINO's? I prefer the latter option.

[IndianaGreen]

55. Pragmatism is what gave us Vichy France

Marshall Petain, war hero, was one of those pragmatists that made peace with Hitler in order to preserve a piece of France.

You take Petain, I'll take DeGaulle!

[Totally Committed]

57. Exactly...

until doing the right thing is considered the only acceptable basis for decisions in all of life, not just politics, but ALL life -- without regard for expendability or "pragmatism" -- we will contine this downwward slide into the abyss. I believe that.

TC

[BigYawn]

67. Excuse me? Are we not already in the abyss with ONLY 45 senators?

Alito the right winger was confirmed already, on
November 2nd, 2004. Because they captured 55 seats
on that day.

I have nothing against putting on a good fight, but
I know when to recognize defeat. Defeat has already
been sealed in on November 2nd, 2004. I rather be a
live chicken than a dead hero. I can't see one iota
gained by red state senators signing on to a losing
cause.

I am sure you are aware all they need is 51 senators
to put any godamn judge on SCOTUS they choose. All this
filibuster will do is bring in more dollars from the base
for those who sign on.

[converted_democrat]

44. It does not help us to keep DINO's...

It would be great to have a majority, but in order to have a real majority you have to have all the players in that majority on the same team...

[BigYawn]

48. I disagree, I would rather have 45 real democrats and 10 Dino's than

49 real democrats. Why? because that gives us chairmanship
of every committee and majority on every committee and that
is a lot of power.

[converted_democrat]

56. But that still leaves you with 10 unpredictable people that you can't

count on to get things done.. Thanks, but no thanks..

[LiberalAndProud]

45. NO pass! This is more important than red state politics.

And if they don't have the vision and integrity to know how important this is, they need to be gone.

Dems can run for election again. Alito on the bench can not be turned back and I believe it will spell DISASTER for our country.

[BigYawn]

50. You are right, if we get a solid majority in congress, we can impeach any

justice and even the president.

[Leopolds Ghost]

46. THEN LET THEM VOTE *FOR* ALITO.

That is the only acceptable alternative to abstaining on the cloture vote.

Otherwise they are scabs and should be punished for embarassing the Senate leadership. YMMV, IMNSHO.

Anyone who intends to vote "no" on Alito and "yes" to cloture is a dishonest scab,

who clearly has nothing to lose from opposing Alito but wishes to curry favor with their Republican colleagues.

Just like the Repubs who oppose abortion but want to keep Roe in place as a wedge issue.

The only conscientious vote for cloture is a vote for Alito. They are the only people who have a legitimate reason to oppose the filibuster.

All the rest (conveniently there are 8 of them, the ALITO 8) are scabs
who should face consequences.

If they want to be known as Alito supporters, let them vote for Alito. Otherwise they will be known as scabs for trying to have it both ways.

[sandnsea]

51. Stand for the People

Maybe if some of these red state senators would STAND FOR THE PEOPLE, some of those people who don't vote would feel like they have representation and SHOW UP. This is a time to define the difference between Democrats and Republicans, it doesn't get any clearer than with Alito.

[im10ashus]

52. I WILL hold it against the red state senators.

If they can't vote based on integrity as opposed to whoring for votes from conservatives, then they are in the wrong party.

[BigYawn]

63. Why cut your ears off to spite your nose??

Even the so called "DINO's" are useful. They can give us a majority
leader. and ALL committee chairmanships, which is powerful.

[IndianaGreen]

54. Most people don't realize what a threat Alito is to the Republic

Alito believes in a theory that says that a President acting as Commander in Chief is not answerable to Congress or the courts, in effect, Alito believes that Bush is an absolute monarch in times of war.

I expect my red state Senator, Evan Bayh, to support the filibuster by voting against cloture.

[BigYawn]

66. Alito will tip balance big time, however..........

Alito got confirmed on November 2nd, 2004.
That is the sad reality. On that day 55 senators
took seats or kept seats in the senate.

Nuclear option needs only 51 morons.
Success or failure of filibuster is exercise in futility.
It is strictly meant to apease the base.

Cold, hard reality is that some red state senators will
not go along with filibuster to try and keep their seats.

I refuse to cut my ears off to spite my nose by turning
against those senators.

[Wordie]

59. Poll: 85% of Dems in Pennsylvania Favor Pro-Impeachment Candidates

This is from a thread in LBN, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2071228

So, the argument to make to those centrist Senators is to show them the article, and ask them if they are sure that there aren't similar numbers of Dems in their states who are just as opposed to Alito, and who aren't going like their "Yes" vote on Alito.

[LiberalAndProud]

61. Thanks for that link.

It was good to read good news.

[orleans]

62. read this

http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20781

i can't copy and paste it here but this is why i expect these southern dems to stand up and fight--explain to their constitutants what could happen with alito on the highest court of the land

explain to these southern staters what the hell the words "unitary executive theory" mean. (read the last three paragraphs in the op-ed)

our dem senators need to explain to their people what this means, and ask them if they truly want a single individual as a dictator, controlling the military and unrestrained by the constitution.

THEN THEY NEED TO DO THE ONLY RIGHT THING FOR THIS COUNTRY! if they would get off their asses and talk to their constitutants about this--do a little work for a change--and make people understand. this is the SHOT THAT IS GONNA BE HEARD AROUND THE WORLD if alito lets bush become a "unitary executive".

(they're only worried about getting votes? none of that pesky voting shit will matter in a few years if they don't grow a spine NOW)

[BigYawn]

65. Pendulum swings.....dems will be back in power...matter of time.. eom

[Lars39]

64. You can't assume that what was a predominately red state

is still a red state. Lotta suffering happened since the elections.

[BigYawn]

68. My whole point is do not hold grudge against any dem senator

who does not back a filibuster. Why? because ALito is in
already. He was confirmed long ago on November 2nd, 2004.
That was the sad day when 55 repugs got in to senate.

A filibuster now can be stopped instantly by going nuclear
which requires ONLY 51 senators.

[BigYawn]

69. Alito was confirmed long ago, actually on November 2nd, 2004

That was the day when 55 repugs sneaked into the senate.

I do not want them to go nuclear because then for the next
3 years they can confirm any goddam judge they want, not
only in SCOTUS but ALL other vacancies. All they need is
51 votes, and bam, the confirmation is done.

[B Calm]

71. Are we suppose to be an opposition party? or a suck up party?

[B Calm]

70. Bullshit! I'm holding a major grudge! They are suppose to

represent the people who VOTE for them!