As mentioned... the vote on cloture should be considered a PARTY VOTE

[Leopolds Ghost]

If Dems want to vote their conscience, let 'em wait until a nominee actually comes up for a vote.

Why should Scabs and Wallflowers who intend to vote no anyway be given upward mobility?

unblock wrote:

now that a filibuster movement has been declared, and democrat who undermines the effort is seriously undermining the party's power.

someone needs to say, "if we get a majority, chairmanships will NOT go to cloture voters."

Agreed... chairmanships should not go to scabs.

I don't care if they're DLC, "realists", strategists, or simply waiting for Godot -- er -- I mean, money for Katrina from this administration.

Their only out, IMO, would be if they sincerely support Alito confirmation and are willing to say so in public.

That is the only honest reason for voting in favor of cloture, i.e. if it is a vote of conscience (because they are an anti-abortion red-state Dem, because they are clueless, whatever.) It is, after all, a vote of conscience, according to Reid.

Voting yes and then no is not a vote of conscience.

That is my understanding of a vote of conscience.

I will not say, punish people who are willing to vote for Alito, because it is the constitutional right of every Senator to advise and consent without respect to party.

But, to quash a fellow Democrat's filibuster for reasons of "strategy" alone is not a conscientious act; it is monkeywrenching.

Funny how when Kerry voted no and then yes on the various versions of the IWR, all the "centrists" and "conservative Dems" tarred him with the Republican label "flip flopper" but when it comes to a filibuster it is all of a sudden the "adult thing to do?"

[Leopolds Ghost]

1. shameless self-kick... just once fer luck.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Leopolds Ghost, you make some great points, especially the flip

flop nature of a no vote on Alito and a yes vote for cloture.

I would suggest that you rewrite and tighten up your piece, because it kind of rambles. Some of your best points are kind of buried. Shorter and more concise would be very powerful.

Then repost it with another subject title.

If we point out the "flip flop" nature of voting against Alito but in support of cloture, we have a powerful political argument to leverage an abstain vote on cloture from some of these Dems.

Remember, the Dems don't need 41 no votes on cloture. The onus is on the Republicans to achieve 60 yes votes on cloture.

[mmonk]

3. I agree.

Noting that a yes vote on cloture IS the real vote (a yes for Alito) could help damage the Alito democrats in the primary elections trying to pretend to their constituents that they were really against his nomination.

[John Q. Citizen]

6. Yes, but worse, it leaves them open to Repos attacks in the general

of being flip floppers.

Do they imagine the Repos are going to thank them for allowing Alito to a floor vote and onto the bench?

If I were Republican, I would use this over and over.

Voice over of blurring grainy picture of Senator X, "Senator X voted to send Alito's nomination to the floor for guarenteed confirmation. Then Senator X voted against this qualified and honorable man.

Can't Senator X make up their mind???"


This is an argument that Senator x may understand and we need to warn them about it.

[Jawja]

4. K&N.

Agreed. The Nazis keep theirs in line; why can't we? They should back the beliefs of their PARTY in this case. Approving Alito violates principles of the PARTY. If you aren't willing to at least FIGHT for those principles, then leave the party. You won't ever be picked for a LEADERSHIP post. If you're already in leadership and won't go down fighting, then STEP DOWN NOW.

On edit: we should give are $$ to the Democrats who SUPPORT the Party positions. Don't donate to the DNC. Give directly to Democrats who vote against cloture.

I have been donating to individual candidates for year. We can make our $$ as well as our votes (of course in my state we have Diebold) work for us.

And getting RID of Diebold should be a PRIME objective.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. I give a little to the DNC because Dean is our guy. I don't give to

the DSCC (Democratic Senate Campaign Committee) or the DCCC (Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee) because I want to support the candidates of my choice, especially in the primaries.

Much of the DNC money is going to build state parties and i support that because it gives the grassroots a lot more power. At this point, the DNC is my friend.

I also give to PACs run by my favorite fighting Dems.


To my way of thinking, the most salient point made by the OP is that Dems who vote for cloture and against Alito are, by definition, flip floppers.

We need to make them aware of the dangers in this. Especially because many of these potential "flip floppers" have already committed to a no vote on Alito, but haven't committed to a yes vote on cloture.

Remember, an abstain vote on cloture is as good as a no vote on cloture, because the Repos have to come up with 60 yes votes on cloture. We could have 40 abstentions and one no vote and still sustain a filibuster.

That wouldn't be a flip flop, because an abstaining Senator wouldn't be sending Alito to guaranteed confirmation, thus negating their future NO floor vote on Alito.

[Marnieworld]

5. excellent point

I even suggest you post this again on Monday when more people are online.

on edit:This ties into my theory that some like Byrd may have expressed their intent to vote yes on Alito but still might not vote to end the debate. I also imagined that Byrd would eloquently fight the "Nuclear option." These wishes helped me with my disapointment over the yes vote intent.

You're right about the unity needed. That is the GOP's greatest strength- their party unity reflected in votes. It debunks all of the spin/memes Dems are weak, Dems are fractured, Dems have no clear message etc. One united front with a clear message dramatically appealing to the Nation? Throw in some paper ballots and we might just get this country back. :patriot: