There's a Democrat who irritates as much as Lieberman:

[cboy4]

Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

As I've bitched and moaned before, the guy is a borderline wingnut! He even has that Repuke-looking hair style.

Check out what he stands for: http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Ben_Nelson.htm

Pro death penalty, opposes woman's right to choose, voted for the constitutional amendment of gay marriage, voted for the war, etc.

I mean :wtf:

But here's the deal. I understand we need a moderate (if you even consider Nelson that) to run in Nebraska if we're going to keep the seat, and I'm all for it......I'm just saying I like to put things in perspective.

Everyone hates Lieberman, and I frankly can't stand him, but he's certainly not the runaway worst Democrat some DUers and others are making him out to be......especially since he promised again on MTP today to caucus with us. :thumbsup:

His support of the war and his backing of the idiot in the White House are unforgivable, but hey, what can you do? It's a free country and he was re-elected by Connecticut voters.

What good does all of the bitching and complaining about him do now?

Edit: MY MISTAKE......I meant to say AS MUCH as Lieberman, NOT MORE than Lieberman. MY BAD!

[Kagemusha]

1. Conversely, bitching and moaning won't hurt anything at this point

Lieb's there whether we like it or not, he's caucusing whether we like it or not, Reid's rolling out the red carpet whether we like it or not, and at any rate, he only gets his Homeland Security chairmanship when the next Congress sits. All that's left in the meantime is stuff like if Lieb and Nelson help Bolton retain the UN ambassadorship.

[Alexander]

2. Actually, Lieberman "hasn't ruled out" joining the Republicans.

He said so today, in fact. I didn't see Meet The Tim today (I can't stand watching it) but I understand he said it on the very program you cited.

Nelson doesn't jump parties. He doesn't need to say he'll caucus with the Dems, because we know he already will.

Nebraska values are far removed from DU values, and it took a guy like Nelson to give us a Nebraska Senate seat. I'll take it, it's an extra vote for Harry Reid we normally wouldn't get.

But Lieberman.....is a self-serving ass-clown. His new "party" (Connecticut For Lieberman) betrays his loyalties - to himself.

[cboy4]

12. Just because Lieberman hasn't ruled it out (and he only said so

because he was asked a hypothetical question) --- how do we know Nelson, (if asked a similar hypothetic question) wouldn't do that same thing?

I mean, there's no indication he ever would, but it's not written in stone that he won't, right?

Again, I'm not defending Lieberman by a long shot. I'm just saying quite a few of Nelson's positions make me, well, :puke:

[Alexander]

15. When has Nelson ever indicated he would jump?

Nelson never has. Lieberman not only has, he DID jump, forming his own (CFL) party, just for him.

Nelson's also never been ambiguous about whether or not he'd caucus with the Republicans. Lieberman has, as of today.

When Nelson runs on his own party ticket (Nebraska For Nelson-NFN?) in the middle of a re-election contest, then I'll see him the same way I see Lieberman.

[cboy4]

22. He hasn't. My point is neither you nor I know whether he's said to

himself, "You know, if the Democrats ever objected to my strong position on ____________ or did ______________, I might consider jumping ships."

You don't know that. And I'm not saying he's thinking about it.

I'm saying he's far enough to the right (compared to the standards of most Democrats) that if some day he announced he was going to run for re-election as a (R), I would not have a heart attack out of shock.

That's all.

[Alexander]

29. The Dems are more of a big-tent party, I don't see that happening.

Lieberman left the party for one reason only: His poll numbers against Ned Lamont didn't look so good.

Ironically, he probably would've won the primary had he not filed as an independent (as it was, it was 51-49, really close), but he did, and fulfilled his own prophecy about the party "leaving" him.

I simply don't see Nelson having a good reason to bolt. That doesn't mean he won't, but I don't see him as a huge self-serving opportunist like Joe. His pattern of behavior would be inconsistent with a bolt from the party.

Yes, he's a conservative Democrat, but we welcome conservatives - as long as they welcome us back. Zell Miller was (relatively) cool until he came out against Kerry and became crazybatshitinsane. Even Lieberman was on most Dems' good side until he refused to accept the possibility of a Lamont primary win. Nelson hasn't done anything to really piss off the party membership, apart from being a fairly conservative (D).

[cboy4]

30. Yea, I don't see Nelson bolting either. And I also agree that he's not

a huge self-serving opportunist like Lieberman.

But Ben is just lucky he represents a state like Nebraska! ;)

[Hippo_Tron]

3. Ben Nelson doesn't go on TV and tell us that we're bad Amerians if we don't support the war

I'm willing to overlook or not overlook many things depending on a politician's stance on the war. Sorry but I don't want more people coming home in body bags and I don't want the possibility of being drafted. I potentially have a huge personal stake in this particular issue and many people already have one. Therefore it trumps any good that Lieberman might've done.

[cboy4]

16. I agree Lieberman's behavior concerning the war has been atrocious.

However, I'm not going to allow that to completely overshadow Nelson's atrocious stance on some pretty important social issues.

And also remember, while it's always more infuriating....even hurtful to hear someone be vocal about issues.........silence can be just as damaging, when all is said or done.

It comes down to votes.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Silence is not nearly as damaging

We've got plenty of anti-war voices speaking up at this point. Lieberman is actively lending our party's credibility to Bush and his failed war. The difference between him doing that and just keeping his mouth shut about the war is the difference between night and day.

[cboy4]

27. Yea, but I think Lieberman is "so far out there" concerning the war that

more people than ever realize he doesn't speak for us (our party)....especially when it comes to his appalling defense of Bush.

And the fact that he lost the primary in Connecticut and is now an Independent really shows everyone how out of touch he is with the Democrats.

You know what I mean?

[Jcrowley]

4. On the issues

• Political solution for Iraq, of 3-way partition. (Oct 2006)
• Voted NO on redeploying troops out of Iraq by July 2007. (Jun 2006)
• Voted YES on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Nov 2005)
• Voted YES on requiring on-budget funding for Iraq, not emergency funding. (Apr 2005)
• Voted YES on $86 billion for military operations in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Oct 2003)
• Voted YES on authorizing use of military force against Iraq. (Oct 2002)

Supports expanding Free Trade. (Sep 2000)

• Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)

• Voted YES on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)

• Voted YES on establishing free trade between US & Singapore. (Jul 2003)

• Voted YES on establishing free trade between the US and Chile. (Jul 2003)

• Voted YES on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)

• Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)

• Voted YES on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)

• Grant fast-track authority to the President. (Nov 1999)

[liberalpragmatist]

5. I don't think Ben Nelson needs to be as conservative as he is

I know people say that Nebraska, being a heavily Republican state, can only elect a Democrat like Ben Nelson, but I'm not really sure that's true.

Firstly, there are several states that are as Republican or even more Republican than Nebraska that have Democratic senators who are FAR more mainstream and loyal than Ben Nelson (i.e. Tester, Dorgan, Conrad, Johnson, Baucus). Even from Nebraska itself, there's a long tradition of progressivism and political independence (Senator Norris from the 1950s, a Republican-turned-Independent-turned-Democrat). Nebraska ALSO had a longtime Democratic Senator through the 1990s (Jim Exon? I think that was his name) and elected Bob Kerrey overwhelmingly twice. Of course, Bob Kerrey was a somewhat unorthodox Democrat (he, for instance, favors private accounts for social security), but he was very much a social liberal and was much more liberal than Nelson. Hell, even Chuck Hagel, the REPUBLICAN, breaks more openly with the Repulicans than Nelson.

People from Nebraska have told me that Nelson is conservative because he is GENUINELY conservative. He was elected governor in the 1990s by running to the RIGHT of his moderate Republican predecessor.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with him because he's extremely popular. But we very much could get a better Democrat from Nebraska than Ben Nelson.

[VeggieTart]

6. Yes, he's anti-choice and he voted against same-sex marriage, BUT

He does favor SOME civil rights for them and would add sexual orientation to a definition of hate crimes.

He does favor increasing the minimum wage.

He opposes Social Security privatization.

Okay, so a lot of his record sucks, but he's in Nebraska, corn belt, conservative hell. For a Nebraskan, his record is better than Republicans, don't you think.

[cboy4]

9. For me, it's ridiculous that anyone would be in favor of *some* civil

rights and not *all* civil rights.

That's so wishy washy.

I understand he has to appease the anti-gay bigots in Nebraska, but he loses a ton of my respect.

Otherwise, your points are well taken.

He is indeed much better than a Republican, unless that Republican is Lincoln Chafee.......well, sorta!

[cboy4]

7. **UPDATE** I MEANT TO SAY NELSON IRRITATES ME AS MUCH AS

LIEBERMAN, NOT MORE

[charlie]

8. Yeah, that worthless idiot

He's the one who had an embarassing puppy crush on Dubya, wrote letters to him begging for a better nickname than "Nellie". Shrub warmed up to him with "Bennie", but that wasn't macho enough. Finally, in a limo ride to a Bush fundraiser, he was dubbed "the Benator" in exchange for his support for Social Security reform. He was then dumped by the roadside without a ride, had to catch a lift from a reporter back to his office. Moron.

[moondust]

10. He's no Zell Miller.

I've never heard of him trashing or campaigning against his own party.

I can hardly wait to hear Zell's take on the midterms. :rofl:

[Arkana]

21. Got you covered.

"I'm Zell Miller, and I just want to say that afjksdl;fkanjkwelckqejuhruewjnsdjkalsdfh *drool* dsajkflakjsdnbmcxksdjhfaskdg;l GODBLAMADAMNDAMMIT slkdafjlkaqwue8yuiwtuoojdhbvncmz,xmc,.Zasld;dsavc *hiccup* *twitch* iojsadjff;vlkm,aMWNE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

11. The difference is.....

Ben Nelson probably can't afford to be too liberal, while Joey Lies could be as liberal as he wants, and still win no problem because of the state he's in.

Yeah, I don't like Nelson, but he also slips under the radar and doesn't openly seek publicity like the ubiquitous Clueless Joe.

[cboy4]

13. Yup, that's my point. I absolutely understand the difference.....

As you might have read, I mentioned he needs to appease his red state moderates. (even though I admit I didn't phrase it in such polite terms)

[Erika]

14. He'll change his tune with the Dem momentum n/t

[Recursion]

17. Yeah, he's a misogynistic homophobic dickhead

But he's voting for Pelosi for speaker.

As LBJ said, I'd rather have the jackasses in my tent pissing out, then outside of my tent pissing in.

[davidinalameda]

19. no he's not because he's in the Senate

[Recursion]

32. Oops! Reid then

The point still stands.

[loyalsister]

18. I'm sure there are several we could dig up

The thing that has bothered me most about Lieberman is that he has been high profile and thus enableing Bush.
It's the public criticisms of Democrats + outspoken Support of Bush
Public support of faith based programs, etc.

I can get over quiet representation of a conservative district or state.

Grandstanding as Republican lite to a point that people have to do research to prove liberal credentials is much more offensive to me.

[skipos]

20. If you think he is bad, you should see the Republicans that run against him. nt

[cboy4]

23. I understand, but I'm judging him as the Democrat he claims to be.

He can very easily pass as a moderate Republican.

[skipos]

31. You should look at his approval ratings in NE

not only are they very high overall, but his approval from Democrats in NE is usually around 70%. My NE standards, he is a Democrat.

[cboy4]

34. Yes, but you're talking about a region that also (before this past

election) gave Lincoln Chafee very high approval ratings as a left wing Republican.

So I'm not really sure what Lieberman's ratings proved up there.

[upi402]

25. Republican

I don't get it, why can't we get real Dems elected. People seem to like us when we stand tall for our principles.

[silverojo]

26. As much as I hate Lieberman

I fucking hate that bastard Ben Nelson! He IS a wingnut, through and through, up to and including his anti-abortion stance. I wish somebody would shove a fetus up his ass and make HIM carry it to term, LOL!

[cboy4]

28. I know....he's just awful.

I feel so dirty using him for his "(D)!" hehe ;)

[cboy4]

35. Yea I hear you. I mean, I understand why moderates have to run

in states like Nebraska and Tennessee to pretty much have a chance to win.

My point is everyone is bashing Lieberman.....and he should be bashed.

However, compared to people like Nelson, I don't think it's fair to overly bash Lieberman when I would have to hold my nose with both fingers and perhaps my toes to ever vote for him!! (Nelson)

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. Nelson is much more conservative than Leiberman

But Nelson keeps a much lower profile.