Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Do you know the population of Baghdad?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:06 AM
Original message
Do you know the population of Baghdad?
Edited on Mon Nov-13-06 11:08 AM by hedgehog
Several sources give an indication of about 5 million people. For comparison, New York City has about 8 million, Los Angeles about 4 million and Chicago about 3 million.

Now think about a matching headline, day after day, week after week:

75 bodies found in LA

122 people wounded in blast in Chicago

15 killed in NYC.......

Oh, by the way, the next time Bush says the rest of the country is quiet, about 1 in 5 Iraqis lives in Baghdad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. 27 million or so n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think that's the total population of Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. My bad
You're right -Baghdad is about 5-6M. Either way those death figures are shocking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. HUH??!
Ummm...not quite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. Baghdad is getting smaller every day
there has been reports of people leaving the city in large numbers. Before the war it was ~ 5 million as I remember. I would bet it is down to 3 million now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The people leaving...
and of course those wholeft/are leaving by moving 6' under ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. The Assyrians are fleeing to Syria and Kurdistan. The Shiites/Sunnis who had migrated
to the city and saw their minority status making them targets are moving to their home villages.

Who knows what the population is now? I certainly don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. I can easily imagine it.
But I do not believe in the free market as a social system.

I believe that the society commands the market, not visa versa. I think we are headed toward chaos.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. I doubt it's 5 million now, that was before we invaded.
With the occupation, constant carnage, and high unemployment, a lot of people will have no doubt fled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. How about "1600 dead in New Orleans"?
Bush has left bodies other places, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. There are problems with the body count from New Orleans.
First, I doubt most people have any idea of the actual number. I know I don't. So many contradictory numbers have come out, so many people were never accounted for that I've never really realized how many died. I know it was bad, but I have no idea how bad.

Second, it's never been made clear how people died. I tend to think that the hurricane didn't kill people; it was the flood 12 hours later. There was no excuse for that, none whatsoever.

Finally, there is an unstated belief that the people who died were somehow responsible. If they hadn't been so stubborn about staying, if they hadn't been so poor or old that they couldn't leave, etc. I'm not saying this is what I believe, but I think that many others do. The outrage is muted by the fact that a lot of people think it could never happen to them and theirs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You've got some wrong ideas...
The 1600 (roughly) is the body count plus some who were reported to have died out of state during the evacuation. The number is still in flux (I've heard rumors of bodies found recently, but not seen reports in the news), but it's not likely to jump significantly.

There are not a lot of people still missing, and that whole "missing" thing is frequently misunderstood. The list of "Missing" that was being batted around, giving numbers as high as 9000, was a list of people that someone was looking for. The majority of those were people who had evacuated in one direction and who were being sought by relatives who went another direction, or often, who already lived out of state. A lot of those entries were duplicates, and some were very vague. If you read the lists (and I looked pretty closely at them), you found entries for people whose names weren't known, or children whose genders and ages weren't known... What was happening is that after the hurricane, people would call to find a loved one (I wen through this). They would report something like this: "My cousin and her husband were in New Orleans and I haven't heard from them. I don't remember his name. THey had three or four children, I think they were 5, 7, 9, and maybe 3. The 3 year old was a boy. The others were two boys and a girl, but I don't know which age. They lived over near Gentilly." Most of those cases have been resolved, and the people who compiled the lists say there aren't large numbers of missing people.

There are still people missing. Some may have fled somewhere else, some may be hiding, some may have died someplace else, and some, no doubt, are dead somewhere near New Orleans, under rubble or stuck in air ducts in houses, etc. There is a often-stated opinion that hundreds or thousands of people were washed out to sea, but there's no real way that could have happened. New Orleans is not on the sea. People washed into the Lake could have floated out to sea, but not hundreds, not even dozens, or people would have spotted them in the Lake. Plus, there were only a couple of places bodies could have gotten in the lake. Same with the River, and it would have been even more difficult for a body to get into the river, since those levees were never topped.

Finally, as for how people died, most died in the initial flood, not in the secondary flood. The hurricane topped a major canal levee and caused a levee on another canal to break, and this flooded the Lower Ninths Ward, causing a lot of deaths. Water topping the levees also flooded the Ninth Ward and other low-lying areas around the Industrial Canal, causing major damage and death. Water also (I think) topped the Lake Pontchartrain levees near Little Woods, and there are places where water came in from the Lake where there just aren't levees. If you drive into New Orleans on I-10 from the east, you'll see a lot of flooded out houses and businesses from the Lake.

A lot of people died because of that flooding. And it wasn't just an "unstated" belief that the people who died were responsible. Even while the hurricane raged, someone from HSD or FEMA stated that a lot of people died and would die because they had not evacuated, and that they would learn their lesson the hard way.

The flooding that flooded the city of the downtown part of the city New Orleans, came from broken levees close to the Lake, along drainage canals meant to siphon water from the city into the Lake. All the pumps failed, and there were no flood gates on the canals. This is the water that slowly flooded New Orleans, and there were a lot of deaths from it, but not nearly as much as from the intitial flooding from the storm surge topping the levees around the Industrial Canal and MR GO Canal (which are closer to the Gulf and therefore more prone to the storm surge). This flooding, however, is what shut New Orleans down, and led to the horrors we saw from criminals, from neglect, etc.

So, there are four main categories of deaths. Those who died while or after evacuating, those who died from the initial hurricane surge, those who died from the flooding from the drainage canal breeches, and those who died through neglect (counting those murdered when all law enforcement broke down). I blame Bush for those, because he would not send in National Guard troops (SOP in such cases) or supplies until five days ofter the hurricane (I got there before the Guard did). The slow response is also responsible for many of the deaths from the secondary flooding, and some of the deaths from the initial storm surge, since, again, the rescue operation was so poor. Nagin had one Coast Guard helicopter available, and had to use it for rescue, and at one point, had to call it off rescue duty to try to plug the broken 17th Street Canal (one of the drainage canals north of the city). That's a choice no one should have to make in a nation as rich as America. There is no telling how many people died after the hurricane while awaiting rescue.

Sorry for the long post. I get going and can't stop! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'm glad you made the posting.
I think you have information which has passed most people by which is why the outrage has been so muted. I would never have guesed 1600 as a final number.I'm not certain if we're saying the same thing or not. I remember hearing that the storm had passed over New Orleans without too much damage and then hearing that the city flooded after the winds died down. When the 9th Ward flooded, was it possible to enter the city with rescue craft such as helicopters and boats? I guess I'm suggesting that no one should have died in either flood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. In the last month 1600 bodies have been taken to the Baghdad morgue
Edited on Mon Nov-13-06 12:07 PM by GliderGuider
With a population of 6 million, that gives Baghdad an annual murder rate of 320 per 100,000. That's 8 times the rate in Washington DC or Detroit, and 9 times the rate in Atlanta. Remember that meme that was infecting right-wingers a couple of years ago that "It's safer in Baghdad than in Washington"? Uh huh.

I hear the latest form of sectarian execution is repeatedly drilling into the victim's head with a Black and Decker. The only bright side is they can only do it when the electricity is running, which limits the number of executions they can perform in a day.

Jesus Haploid Christ, what a bleak and terrifying nightmare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Tell that to the stupid freepers.
Republicans fashioned some totally idiotic statistics to convince the freepers that Baghdad is a really safe place, compared to the USA.

I'm sure you heard Tom Delay compare Baghdad to Houston, and Ann Coulter compare Baghdad to Washington, DC.

Of course, the gullible freepers believe the crap.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. before or after
the bush gang's population reduction program, er, war on terror?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. I've been thinking about similar comparisons
Say at least 600,000 dead Iraqis of a prewar population of 25 million; what would be the equivalent in dead American citizens? I'm terrible at math, but I'm pretty sure nearly 1 in 25 dead Americans would not be considered acceptable under any circumstances.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC