Kucinich: "there's one solution here, and it's not to engage in a debate with the President"

[DemPower]

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/15/1459243#transcript

"I want to say that there's one solution here, and it's not to engage in a debate with the President, who has taken us down a path of disaster in Iraq, but it's for Congress to assume the full power that it has under the Constitution to cut off funds. We don't need to keep indulging in this debate about what to do, because as long as we keep temporizing, the situation gets worse in Iraq.

We have to determine that the time has come to cut off funds. There’s enough money in the pipeline to achieve the orderly withdrawal that Senator McGovern is talking about. But cut off funds, we must. That's the ultimate power of the Congress, the power of the purse. That's how we'll end this war, and that’s the only way we’re going to end this war. "



Kucinich has had a plan to get us out of Iraq since before it began. It is time to stop playing nice with the Republicans. If we do not stop them they will continue to stall and keep the war going as long as possible. Every day we are there,Halliburton makes more $$. They will even try to push the Dems to attack Iran if we do not put an end to the enabling nonsense.

Kucinich 10 point plan

1. The United States must ask the United Nations to manage the oil assets of Iraq until the Iraqi people are self-governing.
2. The United Nations must handle all the contracts: No more Halliburton sweetheart deals, No contracts to Bush Administration insiders, No contracts to campaign contributors. All contracts must be awarded under transparent conditions.
3. The United States must renounce any plans to privatize Iraq. It is illegal under both the Geneva and the Hague Conventions for any nation to invade another nation, seize its assets, and sell those assets. The Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people alone must have the right to determine the future of their country's resources.
4. The United States must ask the United Nations to handle the transition to Iraqi self-governance. The UN must be asked to help the Iraqi people develop a Constitution. The UN must assist in developing free and fair elections.
5. The United States must agree to pay for what we blew up.
6. The United States must pay reparations to the families of innocent Iraqi civilian noncombatants killed and injured in the conflict.
7. The United States must contribute financially to the UN peacekeeping mission.
8. The United Nations, through its member nations, will commit 130,000 peacekeepers to Iraq on a temporary basis until the Iraqi people can maintain their own security.
9. UN troops will rotate into Iraq, and all US troops will come home.
10. The United States will abandon policies of "preemption" and unilateralism and commit to strengthening the UN.

Muktada al'Sadr, the leader of the insurgency, has already stated that Iraqi insurgents would accept peacekeepers from any nation other than the US, Britain and Australia.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Go, Dennis, Go!

[KyndCulture]

2. I love you Dennis!!! You tell em!

[flyingfysh]

3. debating Bush is useless

He showed long ago that he doesn't listen to reason.

Kucinich's plan seems right on target.

[grytpype]

4. Is it possible to unrecommend an article?

[Exiled in America]

15. nope, but it would be interesting to join the discussion and post why you want to :)

[independentpiney]

16. Why would you want to unrecommend it? n/t

[MGD]

60. I'm with you on that one. We are the defeatocrat party after all, aren't we?

[Ms. Clio]

63. perhaps you can explain what you mean by "we are the defeatocrat party after all?"

:wtf:

[oc2002]

5. yes, Congress can do that, but it is another thing politcaly,

Although I agree 100% with Kucinich, that plan has about as much chance of happening, as much as Fox News being Fair and Balanced.

[LWolf]

39. Of course, that is why we don't get things done.

Every time we have a Democrat who actually wants to take decisive action to resolve an issue, we patronize him/her with "I wish, but that will never happen," and turn our attention and support to those with more rhetoric than plan or action.

[mike_c]

58. this is the crux-- other dems should not be getting support...

...for talking about talking about Iraq. Kucinich has a real plan that will get us out of Iraq as quickly as possible.

[Morgana LaFey]

6. I love the smell of

common sense and stark truth in the morning.

Shazaam!

[Hekate]

84. Yep. They want a plan? THIS is a plan.

The only flaw is Bush-Cheney Inc, would fight to the bloody end to keep it from being implemented -- ever. They don't need no stinkin' UN, etc.ad nauseum.

But I like it nonetheless.

Hekate

[IndyOp]

7. Every post I read about "to impeach or not to impeach" just ticks me off -

THERE ARE PEOPLE DYING RIGHT NOW IN IRAQ.

JOB #1: GET OUT OF IRAQ.

First stop the bleeding.

Dennis... :yourock: :patriot: :yourock: :patriot: :yourock: :patriot: :yourock: :patriot:

[thereismore]

11. well well ... and I heard the Democrats have no plan! Looks great to me. nt

[Greyhound]

17. It is a good plan but Dennis is not given any voice or respect in the

Party, he is a liberal pacifier for the rulers to trot out whenever the sheep start to get restless.

[TheBaldyMan]

46. If Dennis does cut off funding it might change your opinion.

I have to admit I admire Kuchinich, always says what he means and means what he says. Not only that he talks a lot of sense.

[Greyhound]

75. I think you've misinterpreted my opinion. I love Dennis Kucinich,

If you all were to elect me Ruler of the Universe I'd abdicate to him. He is the best of the best and is, as far as I know, always right, and we were fools not to make him the President.

He has been in congress for 10 years and has been passed over numerous times by the Democratic "leadership" for powerful positions in favor of re:puke:-lite puppets, and it has been quite clear that they will not allow him the status he deserves because not only is he right, but also refuses to compromise the truth in favor of the party line.

[TheBaldyMan]

76. On DemocracyNow he did say that the progressive caucus was the single biggest group

It seems that maybe the triangulators had best start thinking about a seismic shift in official policy. Universal healthcare, an end to the Iraq war, tackling skyrocketing deficit, rooting out endemic corruption - also in spite of electoral fraud the Dems can still get a majority. These are popular policies.

The 'centre' might find itself so far behind public opinion on policy that they begin to get shoved out by truly progressive liberals with balls like Dennis.

[Greyhound]

111. It is and the repuke-lite elements in our party are shitting themselves

over the fact that their lies are being exposed as such.

Consider this, the reich-wing used all of the same dirty tricks, disenfranchisement, and vote-counting fraud, they've engaged in for the last 8 years and the Democratic majority was so overwhelming they couldn't turn it into a re:puke: "upset".

Look for the pooh-poohing of election fraud to really pick up steam in the nest year.

[civildisoBDence]

72. Kucinich can play the role of providing cover for more moderate plans

I happen to agree for the most part with his plan, but it'll never go anywhere in the US of Bush and Cheney.

If and when other Democrats trim it down to something possible, they'll appear more moderate and less anti-American than this plan must seem to most Americans. (Not that I see it that way--it looks like a great way to reestablish our moral authority, and it's also the right damn thing to do.)

Newsprism

[DemPower]

14. well I absolutely agree

Getting the troops out is first and foremost.

That is why I have been pushing for impeachment. The first thing Bush said after the election was that we will stay the course. He is in the way of progress. He will prevent the Democratic party from doing anything good for the country. He must be removed from office.

[nashville_brook]

18. i was thinking the same thing -- the 2 go together

there's a false dicotomy flying around lately,

that if you're for impeachment, you're against everything else.
that if you're for troop reduction/withdrawl, you're against everything else.
that if you're for progressivism, you're against everything else
that if you're for centrism, you're against everything else...

on and on...

these are vapors.

[bobbolink]

25. Poor people in the US are dying, also, but I don't hear any plan

or priority, including from Dennis, about restoring the Medicaid that was cut.

Only plans to give the money to the muddleclass.

I just *LOVE* being chopped liver.

[ComerPerro]

8. I don't know how much of this we will be able to accomplish without

getting Bolton out of the UN, and getting Bush the fuck out of office.

We have Congress, both houses, by a very slim margin.

[NotGivingUp]

9. I'm with Dennis. The less we expect, the less we will get.

[rhiannon55]

10. Excellent plan

Dennis Kucinich is one one the smartest congressmen around. I hope Nancy listens to him.

[Marnieworld]

12. I heart Dennis

Finally someone makes sense. The only way out is through the UN and international alliances. The less this is the US the better.

[Phredicles]

13. I'm proud to say I voted for Kucinich in the '04 CA primary; this proposal

is an example of why I did. It may not be politically feasible today, but it's good to start floating ideas such as these.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. The purse is the Democratic job. Not tactics.

Whether funding should dry up by degrees or all at once is the only question.

Everything else is SEP (someone else's problem).

[elehhhhna]

20. Hey! He copied & elaborated on my one-sentence plan:

Get out fast while throwing lots of money over our shoulders.

[Matariki]

21. Frankly, I'd like to see Halliburton, et al, pay for what 'we' blew up.

[peacetalksforall]

22. On first read - I agree with everything. On second read - same -

so please poke holes so we can push this, if sound.

I think number 9 has to be done geographically if insurgents are serious about accepting peacekeepers from any nation other than ....

US BRITAIN AUSTRALIA!!!!

It's quite thrilling that some people may start realizing who the real imperialists are and will find out just who did what for whom and for which reason and for what trades and agreements. Hooray - I hope we find out.

My personal theory - Britain is still the number one imperialist and got us to use our kids and tax money to do most of their bidding by agreements between our barons and their barons.

It's time for the little people to wake up for the benefit of each other. All authors and documentarians - please step forward. And how about some whistleblowers for humanitarian reasons?

Bravo, Dennis! Thank you.

[Vidar]

23. K&R for Kucinch!

[Generator]

24. He's too smart for this country

Everyone on all sides will dick around for a few more thousand deaths/years and THEN withdrawl. Nobody ever does the smart thing in Amerikay...no no noo..we must respect all sides (even if they have shown abundantly as in the case of Bush that they do not deserve it) and debate some more and then call each other names while more die in the vain hope proven wrong by past adventures that you cannot force a people to have the government YOU want them to.

[rman]

26. Kucinich is so right;

there no point in pleading with the abuser.

I think if the ill-gotten capital is confiscated from the war profiteers just as Hoover confiscated Prescott Bush's wealth obtained through dealing with Nazi Germany, the US can easily pay for what it blew up in Iraq.

A first step in strengthening the UN should be to make it a truly democratic organization: no more veto rights for certain UN members.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. Dennis has more sense than most groups of ten people in Congress.

He's one of the few people who has opposed the Iraq war since a year before it started, and one of the few who voted against the Patriot Act. Where can we find more people like Dennis to run for office?

[nolabels]

71. Dennis has a big problem with honesty

He is too honest and just keeps forgetting he is member of congress. He talks like he is another Joe from down the street. For us ordinary nine to five workers he makes sense. This also puts the establishment in uncomfortable place, it's a feeling they have that they missed something on their way to screwing the rest of us. I just hope he can shoe horn his way into helping to write some of these very needed upcoming reform acts

[Ganja Ninja]

28. "UN troops will rotate into Iraq, and all US troops will come home."

Good luck with that Dennis.
Lets be realistic. The UN doesn't want any part of this can of worms and even if they did it would take a year or more to get them to commit let alone deploy troops.

[happydreams]

41. Nice catch. I think you're right. He needs to cut that out of the plan.

We just need to get the hell out of there.

[dkofos]

29. Looks like a good plan to me.

It probably would have worked two years ago too.

[FormerDem06]

30. I agree except for two points:

2. The United Nations must handle all the contracts: No more Halliburton sweetheart deals, No contracts to Bush Administration insiders, No contracts to campaign contributors. All contracts must be awarded under transparent conditions.

Oil for Food proves this is a BAD idea; but I really don't know a better way to get this done.

10. The United States will abandon policies of "preemption" and unilateralism and commit to strengthening the UN.

The UN is impotent (see Darfur). I think that if a truly TRULY bad situation comes up we should be able to intervene. I mean there are Chinese troops on the ground in Darfur protecting oil assetts and delivering arms to those that are committing the slaughter.

The UN just has to sit back and watch. The UN is like Rush Limbaugh with an empty bottle of Viagra; and that bodes poorly for the world.

[DemPower]

31. Did anyone read the whole transcript?

They finished putting up the transcript-it's really funny...

AMY GOODMAN: Senator McGovern, if you could --

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: Amy, let me get in on this, please. Let me get in on this. It's my turn. You let him interrupt me, now let me -- let me have my turn! You let him interrupt me! Now it’s my turn!

AMY GOODMAN: Why don't you lay out your plan quickly. I want to ask Senator McGovern a question about history, about Vietnam. Go ahead, Joshua Muravchik.

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: Senator McGovern, your powers of logic are failing you. I think it's perfectly appropriate for me, you or anyone else to criticize the policies of the US government or the execution of policies, which is what I was criticizing. But it's an entirely different thing to do what Congressman Kucinich did, which is to criticize and defame the motives of the United States in going into Iraq or anything else, to say that we had evil and sordid motives, that we wanted to kill all these Iraqis in order to steal their oil. That’s what --

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Who defames the United States? We went into a war based on lies!

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: That is what Congressman Kucinich said --

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: We went into a war based on lies. Where's the defamation there? You defame the United States when you stand by a policy that says that we should stay in a war that’s based on lies.

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: Congressman Kucinich, you said --

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: You’re sending the people to death based on lies. It's time to tell the truth! The American people want the truth.

[rman]

33. oh very nice.

i've got to take a look at that.

[rman]

34. "We went into Iraq for oil. Everybody in America knows that."

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: We went into Iraq for oil. Everybody in America knows that.

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: Why don’t you just apologize to the American people for having said that?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: The American people know that our invasion of Iraq was about oil. Big surprise! Surprise to you, maybe, but not a surprise to the American people.

JOSHUA MURAVCHIK: Well, Congressman Kucinich can yell louder than I can, but the fact is, you --

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Not really. My ear is getting blown out here by your screaming.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/15/1459243#transcript


most excellent

[happydreams]

42. What a hooot! Kucinich has his finger on the pulse of

America IMHO. He needs to be Speaker of the House.

[TheBaldyMan]

117. It's hilarious if you listen to Muravcik bleat constantly - uber-defensive

The McGovern and Kuchinich smackdowns are sweet and Muravcik is constantly screaming and bawling.

The transcript is great but the 'live' performance will warm the cockles of your heart.

[we can do it]

32. Go Dennis!

The more I hear him, the more I like him.

[Greeby]

35. I thought it was a typo to put Senator McGovern

Until I clicked the link and realized it's actually GEORGE McGovern and not JIM (who is the author of the bill to cut off war funding)

[WinkyDink]

36. DK has GUTS and BRAINS and HEART. He is heroic.

I heard him speak at the first NYC pre-Invasion March. He was right then, and he's right now.

[happydreams]

37. Brilliant!. Dennis did an end run around all this shit!!K&R

[robertpaulsen]

38. K & R! Dennis is truly the Man with a Plan!

:kick:

[happydreams]

40. I wish I could recommend this topic again. Dennis knows

his business. It's like "Island hopping" in WWII.

[Jcrowley]

43. Here are some headlines from today's show

US Accused of Killing 30 Iraqis in Ramadi
The US military is being accused of killing at least thirty civilians in a raid on the western Iraqi town of Ramadi. The dead are believed to include women and children. Witnesses told the Reuters new agency several bodies were left lying in the street. The Los Angeles Times reports at least fifteen homes were destroyed.
Unidentified Ramadi resident: "Huge crimes happened at night. Huge crimes (targeting) people inside their shops. They only sell and buy, they are neither resistance nor terrorists. They are not from all these things. These bodies, 25 bodies committed no serious crime or guilt."
Doctors say the number of dead increased because US roadblocks made it difficult to reach the victims. The Pentagon has not commented on the attack.

US Soldier to Plead Guilty in Iraq Rape, Murder Case
In other Iraq news, a US soldier accused in the rape of an Iraqi teenage girl and the murder of her and her family is expected to plead guilty today. Specialist James Barker would be the first of five suspects to take public responsibility. Barker has admitted the soldiers raped the girl -- Abeer Kassem Hamza al-Janabi – and then burnt her body to cover up the crime. The soldiers also herded Hamza’s mother, father, and five-year old sister into a room and shot them dead with an AK-47 rifle. Barker will not face the death penalty as part of his plea agreement.

Mexican-American, 7, Campaigns Against Mother’s Deportation
In Mexico, a seven-year-old Mexican-American appeared before parliament Tuesday as part of a public campaign to prevent his mother’s deportation from the United States. The boy, Saul Arellano, is the son of Elvira Arellano. She’s taken refuge inside a Chicago church since August in an attempt to defy a government deportation order. Saul Arellano spoke after his appearance before the Mexican parliament.
Saul Arellano: "I want President Bush to stop capturing and detaining people so that my mother and other people stay together in the United States."
Mexican officials said they will try to prevent Elvira Arellano’s deportation. Saul Arellano was also accompanied by Ema Lozano of the Center Without Borders.
Ema Lozano: "There are hundreds of thousands of new voters registered to vote and they changed the congress and the senate in the last election. So we are extremely hopeful, not only for Elvira Arellano, but for the twelve million undocumented immigrants that live and work and pay taxes in the United States that they will be able to live with dignity."

Reid Elected Democratic Senate Leader
Here in the United States, Democratic Senator Harry Reid was elected new Senate Majority leader on Tuesday. In an interview with the Washington Post, Reid said one of Democrats’ first priorities will be to increase the US military budget by $75 billion.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/15/1459235

Muravchik is right there with Podhoretz as delusional and frothing.

[lonestarnot]

44. Damn missed another! DU I love you!

Dennis is a damn star!

[TheBaldyMan]

45. When the AEI mouthpiece Muravcik goes into meltdown it's pretty funny

as well as pathetic.

Do these neo-con have no other option than to repeat the same stuff over and over again. In the course of that article he said

• Dems are like a broken record
• You hate America
• a string of lies about McGovern
• Domino theory
• US could have won the Vietnam War if it wasn't for the liberals
• FEAR! TERROR! AL QAIDA! FEAR! TERROR!
• the left slanders and smears opponents
• The Iraq war is not about oil

the list could be a lot longer but suffice to say when challenged on this nonsense Muravcik's head exploded. This nutjob wants to bomb Iran because in his alternative reality it would help in 'The War Against Terror®'.

[donkeyotay]

73. "We woulda won Vietnam" has been getting a lot of play recently

Funny that the leader of the free world is in Vietnam doing trade bidness with them when, according to the hawks, Vietnam was a domino whose fall would cause the whole world to go communist. Well, they're still commies, but we don't seem to be opposed to doing business with them. Commie labor is cheap. Guess the right was wrong about that, too. So, will the crazies-from-the-basement, privatized military industrial complex selling nuclear weapons to the world really make us safer?

[TheBaldyMan]

78. Nah, the neo-con was running on fumes of fear.

There was a LOT of projection in his statements. He really started screaming when he was called on his bullshit. It would have been a great Colbert routine but he was the real deal, detached from reality and convinced we all hate America because we don't agree with him.

[FormerOstrich]

47. I am disappointed this

thread slipped onto the second page while all the other in and out threads keep raging to the top.

IMHO, this is the best plan I've heard to date!!!

:kick:

[LynnTheDem]

48. k&r for a truly great man.

If only more Americans were even half as intelligent as DK.

[BelgianMadCow]

49. Always a kick for DK - and a perfect counter to "dems have no plan"

:kick:

[MGD]

61. It isn't a plan, it's total capitulation to our enemies. eom

[Ms. Clio]

66. Who are our "enemies" in the land we invaded and occupied on lies & greed?

Be specific.

[MGD]

82. Al-queda in Iraq

Be specific-OK. There you go.

[BelgianMadCow]

85. There were no more Al-Qaeda in Iraq than in the US

before the war that is.

But I guess (edit sorry, make that) should you (are) now (going to) advocate Iraq attracting them, so we can fight them there.

Two points :
1) What is the moral argument justifying killing 650000 people, many innocent, in another country to wage war on a terrorist group that was NOT based there?
2) The war is not so much attracting Al-Qaeda as creating more supporters & being a giant recruitment poster. See the NIE.

[MGD]

88. Today's war in Iraq is not yesterday's war in Iraq.

1) What is the moral argument justifying killing 650000 people, many innocent, in another country to wage war on a terrorist group that was NOT based there?

A.) That number is highly suspect. The Lancet method of deriving its casualty figures is widely regarded as unreliable. Because it is based on a questionaire from a small subset of the total population, it is succesptible to extrapolating a conclusion based on a data subset that is not representative of the entire country. The numbers put out by the indipendent site "Iraqi Body Count" are generally considered much more reliable and accurate. They put the total body count between 47,184 and 52,349. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
B.) We aren't the ones slaughtering civillians. Iraqi sectarians are engaged in a civil war which I believe has been incited by foreign terrorists receiving funding from state sponsors. There appear to be multiple wars going on in Iraq right now.

2) The war is not so much attracting Al-Qaeda as creating more supporters & being a giant recruitment poster. See the NIE.
That's no reason to claim defeat and surrender IMO. Our situation does not seem hopeless to me. If this were a game of chess, we would be nowhere near checkmated and we would still have all of our pieces on the board. My only issue with this war is the cost in US lives and treasure. It isn't sustainable for the duration of time that we need to be prepared to fight IMO. As much as I hate the idea of giving up ground, I think we would be wise to pull everything into "fortress Baghdad" and wait out the civil war. We can't hold the entire country but we can hold Baghdad and that's all we need to hold.

[Ms. Clio]

94. "We aren't the ones slaughtering civilians"

What a fantasy land. You must have missed the recent conviction of the rapist-killer who murdered Abeer and her family.

[MGD]

108. There will be bad apples in any barrel.

We aren't the ones exploding IEDs in crowded market places and specifically murdering civilians as a matter of policy and strategy. Once again, you infuse your arguments with obvious half-truths and rhetoric. Your arguments are weak.

[BelgianMadCow]

109. Obviously. That point has no merit in and of itself.

As to the substance of your post :

1) Moral grounds for invading & killing innocents
A) So the moral justification lies in the fact that only 50000 people are killed? Really now.
B) Is it not the horrible post-invasion plan (guard the oil pipelines and all the rest be damned) that caused the voilence in Iraq to erupt? That makes the point of who is doing the killing moot.

2) "That's no reason to claim defeat and surrender IMO. Our situation does not seem hopeless to me"
When you are planning to find WMDs but there are none (of course), and plan to liberate a people who now hate you to an overwhelming degree, or to bring democracy when in the mean time religious factions are forming the broken government, I'd say it is pretty much lost. You are arguing that not all ist lost militarily. That is besides the point. I do not see how keeping the green zone occupied why all the rest goes to hell can be considered any kind of success given the stated goals.

But I see in your post history this (occupying the green zone) is what you advocate on all relevant threads. You have a right to do so, but I will agree to disagree and give you the last word. Your talking points are clear and so is my opinion.

Thanks for the discussion, keeps the thread kicked as well.

:hi:

[Ms. Clio]

91. Keep repeating the neocon and administration talking points

There YOU go.

[MGD]

96. I already refuted your talking points once. I'll happily do it again.

Go ahead then, tell me which of my arguments are "neocon and administration" talking points.

[Ms. Clio]

97. All of them

Go ahead, repeat them for posterity. They are quite illuminating.

[MGD]

100. Go ahead and be specific.

[Ms. Clio]

103. Why would I do that? You said you could repeat your points

Do so.

[Ms. Clio]

106. But here's one

You said that the IWR, which was based on lies about Saddam Hussein's nuclear capabilities, WMDs, and support of Al Qaida, meant that Hussein actually was a threat to the U.S., after all.

[MGD]

107. What I said, before you had the sub-thread deleted, was this:

"The vote was based on a hell of a lot more than WMDs. I'm not going to list them all. See for yourself:" http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

I will now, however, list some of the reasons other than WMD used as justification for a yes vote on the IWR by 29 Democrats and 48 Republicans now. As you can see, the suspected existence of WMDs was not the only factor contributing to the bipartisan support for the use of force against Saddam Hussein. Furthermore, in 1998, Bill Clinton signed into law HR 4655 which specifically states: "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 -Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government." The decision to depose Saddam Hussein and to install a Democratic Government had been made before George W. Bush ever took office by everyone's favorite Democrat, Bill Clinton. It is also worth noting that had Saddam Hussein complied with UNR 1441 in the first place, this mess may have been avoided. For whatever reason, he wanted to play games. After 9-11, America was tired of playing games like that; hence, the bipartisan support to depose Saddam Hussein and install a Democratic government. As if this isn't enough, Saddam Hussein had paid to numerous families of suicide bombers a sum of $25,000 after they comitted their act of terrorism against Israel, a US ally (whether you like it or not) and he was encouraging further such attacks. Hussein was, therefore, a state sponsor of terrorism.

As promised, a list of reasons other than WMD used as justification for a yes vote on the IWR by 29 Democrats and 48 Republicans.

1.) Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations
Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression
of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace
and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate,
or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq,
including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property
wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

2.) Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire,
attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify
and destroy Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and
development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal
of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

3.) Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing
hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States,
including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President
Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United
States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the
resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

4.) Whereas in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against
Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102–1), Congress has authorized
the President ‘‘to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to
United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order
to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660,
661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677’’;

5.) Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that
it ‘‘supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals
of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent
with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against
Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102–1),’’ that Iraq’s repression of
its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council
Resolution 688 and ‘‘constitutes a continuing threat to the peace,
security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,’’ and that Congress,
‘‘supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the
goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688’’;

6.) Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105–338)
expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy
of the United States to support efforts to remove from power
the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic
government to replace that regime;

7.) Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war
on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding
requested by the President to take the necessary actions against
international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including
those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized,
committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September
11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

8.) Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue
to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists
and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations,
or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided
the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or
harbored such persons or organizations;

9.) Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to
take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international
terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in
the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force
(Public Law 107–40); and

10.) Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States
to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf
region: Now, therefore, be it

[BelgianMadCow]

83. enemies? You mean those who are not with us

but against us?

Following DKs plan would mean admitting guilt and repairing the damage.
It do not see how it would let "them" win. Have you not read about the NIE stating Iraq war is creating more terrorists?

Do you disagree with that vast panel of experts or do you think victory is creating more "terrorists"?

[MGD]

89. Do you think victory may be found in surrender then?

I've never heard of winning a war by surrendering. Please explain to me how that works.
Or are you content with defeat because you think it's George Bush's defeat and not America's?

[Ms. Clio]

92. Just stop it, we are not going to "win" in Iraq

And why aren't you there, anyway?

[MGD]

93. Not with people like you forming policy. I'm not stopping anything either. I don't know how to quit.

And why aren't you there, anyway?
I've served my 8 years and I've been to war already. That chicken hawk argument doesn't work on me.

[Ms. Clio]

95. Sure you did

right. I thought you were a registered nurse, remember? But your country needs you to fight al Qaida in Iraq?

[MGD]

98. You aren't making arguments, You're insulting me. I thought there were rules about that?

[Ms. Clio]

105. I am truly curious

If you believe in this war so much, why aren't you fighting it yourself?

That's not an insult, it's a question.

[BelgianMadCow]

110. No victory is possible anymore in this illegal war based on lies

just a smaller defeat, as in

1) STOPPING to create more radical anti-US sympathisers (which does not undo the hatred already created - if the US preemptively and unilaterally invaded my country, and killed my son, the grudge I would hold would never pass).
2) Stop/reverse the perception in the world that the US is on an imperial (PNAC) course using might before right.

You are already defeated. Do you not see that? And sadly it is not only Bush*co's defeat.

"Defeat" in and of itself is not what saddens me though. It is the tragic loss of life on both sides of this conflict for profit.

As I said in my other reply, I'l leave you the last word & agree to disagree.

:hi:

[Ms. Clio]

102. He's repeating Rumsfeld's doctrine of turning Iraq into a giant charnel house

to draw "the terrorists" there so we won't have to fight them here.

Of course, Rumsfeld just got fired, didn't he?

[let us vote]

115. The enemies are Bush that the hawks - not the Iraqi insurgents

[Jed Dilligan]

50. Good plan

Slight point of accuracy--al Sadr is not the leader of "the insurgency" but of just one of the sectarian militias.

[Raine]

51. Run the country without chimp

our side has the power and chimp can't do anything about it.

[boston bean]

52. Kucinich 10 point plan

He is right once again! Just imagine, he uses his brain!! Unlike Bush, who has to use Rovers.

[malaise]

53. Dennis speaks the truth

Go Dennis!

[Disturbed]

54. The next time someone ways "Dems don't have a plan"

show them this one. Kucinich should be House Speaker. The Dems need someone who does not appease The Fascists.

[malaise]

64. 100% correct n/t

[dbt]

55. Another K, Another R.

I LOVE Point 5: The United States must agree to pay for what we blew up. THAT money needs to come directly out of the bloody pockets of Halliburton, GE and all the other card-carrying members of the Military Industrial Complex which have profited so obscenely from this Grand Adventure.

Here's an eleventh point: The President of the United States of America needs to APOLOGIZE to the people of Iraq for what this country has done to them in the name of greed and LIES. He or she needs to GO THERE and BEG their forgiveness for this deliberate atrocity.

No, I don't expect this President to be bu$hler. He'd sooner take a beating on the White House lawn at high noon on the Fourth of July than apologize for anything, and more's the pity. This means that, barring his impeachment and removal, we are at minimum TWO MORE YEARS away from getting out of Viet Nam II.

One point of disagreement with the HONORABLE Mr. Kucinich (and how many Congre$$critter$ are worthy of this appellation?) : 130,000 UN peacekeepers won't do JACK for that poor, benighted land. It's going to take half a freaking million troops to disarm, stabilize and secure Iraq.

May the Goddess have mercy on America.

:freak:
dbt
Remember New Orleans

[Altean Wanderer]

56. I hope this gets a real hearing n/t

[treestar]

57. Yeah for Dennis and what a fair-minded plan

Burdens the UN a bit for US mistakes, but they won't mind that.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AbbyR]

62. I LOVE Dennis!

Why won't the top Dems listen to him? He has a brain - maybe that's why.

[ShaneGR]

65. Some of these make absolutely no sense.... HOGWASH

Kucinich 10 point plan

1. The United States must ask the United Nations to manage the oil assets of Iraq until the Iraqi people are self-governing.

And which part of the UN gets that duty? Which countries would overlook it? What would the voting structure be? Does Iran get to have a say in Iraq's oil capacity? Syria? Saudi Arabia? The Russians?

2. The United Nations must handle all the contracts: No more Halliburton sweetheart deals, No contracts to Bush Administration insiders, No contracts to campaign contributors. All contracts must be awarded under transparent conditions.

See above

3. The United States must renounce any plans to privatize Iraq. It is illegal under both the Geneva and the Hague Conventions for any nation to invade another nation, seize its assets, and sell those assets. The Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people alone must have the right to determine the future of their country's resources.


I agree with that one.

4. The United States must ask the United Nations to handle the transition to Iraqi self-governance. The UN must be asked to help the Iraqi people develop a Constitution. The UN must assist in developing free and fair elections.

There is zero UN presence in Iraq as of now. It serves no purpose, currently, in Iraq. It's a straw man argument, neither Dems or Republicans could talk a retarded 4 year old into deploying into Iraq.

5. The United States must agree to pay for what we blew up.

With what money? Part of the half a trillion we already spent? Should we throw another 1/2 trillion at the problem? What about after we leave and the country falls apart and devolves into all-out civil war. Should we pay for that too?

6. The United States must pay reparations to the families of innocent Iraqi civilian noncombatants killed and injured in the conflict.

How? Who's a combatent and a non-combatent? Should we just write a check for 50 dollars to every Iraqi?

7. The United States must contribute financially to the UN peacekeeping mission.

What UN peacekeeping mission?

8. The United Nations, through its member nations, will commit 130,000 peacekeepers to Iraq on a temporary basis until the Iraqi people can maintain their own security.

That's LESS troops than we have there right now! How is that going to help? Does anyone really think that 130,000 UN troops from dozens of countries with flawed command structure is going to a better job? And that's if they agreed to go in the first place which is HIGHLY unlikely.

9. UN troops will rotate into Iraq, and all US troops will come home.

Yay, and we'll all sing koombaya and the world will be perfect again.

10. The United States will abandon policies of "preemption" and unilateralism and commit to strengthening the UN.

Agreed

[MGD]

67. I'm sure as hell not gonna argue with you. eom

[sandnsea]

69. #8

Has always been my biggest problem with UN in, US out. Where does Dennis suggest the UN get 130,000 troops?? The UN only does peacekeeping, not fighting. And why should other countries put their troops on the line when WE are the ones that created this catastrophe in the first place. The UN has a role to play, as does NATO and the Arab League. At this point, there has to be a political solution that includes withdrawal, nothing else is going to work.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. The USA has been defeated in Iraq. Dennis' plan is workable and makes sense.

BushCo is still trying to escape and save face.

Now, it's just a matter of getting out or getting kicked out.

[OzarkDem]

70. Good point, Dennis!

[jokerman93]

74. This is the guy

This is the guy who will someday serve as the first Secretary of the U.S. Department of Peace.

:patriot:

His plan takes an unambiguous position about our responsibilities to the Iraqi people and the community of nations. Dennis is always bold as hell, and I like that about him. If this plan were attempted, certainly details would have to change along the way -- but the outcome can't be a compromise. There's a lot for America to answer for and undo in the next few years. However we do it, it's imperative we somehow get to the outcomes he describes here.

Dennis really doesn't even think outside the box with this plan. He doesn't need to. He just states the obvious in simple direct terms. In the current cultural climate of endless spin and subjective "truthiness", stating the obvious is a radical act.

This is a proposal. I think it's a pretty good one. Except, maybe we'll need to come up with incentives to get the U.N. on board with some of this. I do hope this plan gets discussed in congress. We need a lot more open discourse along these lines to develop real solutions to all the challenges in front of us. In his way, Dennis counters the neocon radicalism with his own kind of "radical statesmanship". It's so refreshing. Neocon corporate radicalism has driven this country into the ground. IMO, we could use a commitment from our leaders to more bold thinking and statesmanship like Dennis' that can drive real progressive solutions. Instead of radical curruption and profiteering, we need to bring "Radical Statesmanship" to Washington.

J

[Junkdrawer]

77. He's right about Iraq. He's right about Election Reform...

At least one guy on The Hill gets it.

[Imagevision]

79. Lieberman may go republican on this vote? yes/no/maybe?!!

[upi402]

80. will we get what is sane?

or just more spinelss go-along, make-nice

[RoyGBiv]

81. Mostly agree ...

I would have liked a tad better if he had altered that statement slightly.

"I want to say that there's one solution here, and it's not to engage in a debate with the President, who has taken us down a path of disaster in Iraq, but it's for Congress to assume the full power that it has under the Constitution."

I know that cutting off funding is the practical solution, but in a broader sense, I want Congress to re-assume its full powers. This degradation of Congressional authority, freely accomplished by Congress itself, is infuriating. Congress, as much as any other institution, body, or individual, is responsible for effectively giving the Executive the powers of a monarch.

[Election]

86. With all due respect to Representative Kucinich, you can't do that

Not because it may or may not be the best course of action, but because it is very likely such an action would trigger a government shutdown (the action of cutting off funds immediately without dialouge).

The Republicans forgot Bill Clinton was still President in 1995 and it cost them big time in 1996. I'm not saying we play Republican lite by any means, but we need to be diplomatic with the President in the same way the President should have been diplomatic abroad. The President has a lot of executive powers (namely the veto pen and a filibuster power in the Senate through Senate Republicans), and we need qualified legislative leaders (which would be our senior leadership) to guide us in this divided government.

[BelgianMadCow]

87. "cutting off funds without dialogue" ??

where did DK say that? I don't see it in the OP, so please cite your source.

Welcome to DU by the way :-)

[Election]

116. "There's one solution here, and it's not to engage in debate with the President"

n/t

[TheBaldyMan]

90. In the interview Dennis said there were enough funds in the pipeline

I think he meant stopping funding would give the DoD a few months to pull the troops out before the well ran dry.

I can't see the wisdom in keeping the troops there, the US will have to leave one way or another, the longer we stay there the bloodier it is going to get.

:hi: welcome to Du.

[savemefromdumbya]

99. Hurrah, at last a man with a plan!

Dennis has common sense unlike some.

[NotGivingUp]

101. dennis...the voice of reason...i voted for you and i would again!

[novalib]

104. WE LOVE YOU, DENNIS!!!!!

Gaia, do I LOVE THIS MAN!!!!!!

He just make so much SENSE!!

None of the usual BULLSHIT we hear from the politicians.

KEEP SPEAKING THE TRUTH TO POWER, DENNIS!!!!

[let us vote]

112. kick

[let us vote]

113. kick

[let us vote]

114. kick