People: Enough with the Murtha "scandal" BS

[Goblinmonger]

There is no scandal. Stop giving the right-wing talking points feet. This was almost 30 years ago for fuck sake. Let it go. He is on tape refusing a bribe. People were doing The Hustle and watching The Deer Hunter when this sting was set up.

Let it go. It isn't an issue. It hasn't been one for almost 30 years.

[trumad]

1. Bullshit...

he wasn't refusing the bribe....he was trying to move it to his friends. It's the same fucking thing... Don't give me the money but I'll tell you who you can give it to and that will help me out in the long run.

[Goblinmonger]

3. You watched Hannity, too, last night

Stop giving this feet. It happened almost 30 years ago and he was never charged with jack shit while others were. It's done; it's dead; it's a non-issue. It only is being brought up because the desperate fucking republicans have nothing better and their "he is a pussy about the war" line didn't stick.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goblinmonger]

41. It seems to me he is saying

that he will do what he can (and he does seem to get in a pissing match about HIM being able to do it better because his balls are bigger or something--a legislator with a big ego, go figure) in the hopes that it will help his district:

But I want to do business with you. I mean I want to get the goddamn jobs in the area, you know, a few bank deposits in my area. Nothing I'd like better. Later on, after we've dealt a while, we might change our mind -- we might want to do more business. But right now, I think I can do more this way than any other way.

He SPECIFICALLY refused to take any money. He SPECIFICALLY says he just wants to get some business into his district. Apparently the FBI thought so, too, since he was cleared of charges.

[dpbrown]

60. And DLC people who are trying to backstab Murtha, too

They are using Republican tactics to try to get their playtoy Steny Hoyer into power.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

62. Anti-war OR Steny Hoyer

That's the friggin' choice here. FOCUS PEOPLE.

[KittyWampus]

89. Anti -ABORTION or Hoyer. I know who I support.

[w4rma]

92. WATCH THE ABSCAM VIDEO: Murtha Displays A High Degree of Ethics

I've watched the Abscam tape. You can watch it here too: http://lonestartimes.com/2006/11/14/

I listened to every statement Murtha made.

Murtha did exactly this:
1. Discussed housing prices
2. Discussed the problems of his District
3. Told the agents that they can't give him money to get legislature drafted and that is illegal
4. Told the agents that he wants to follow the law
5. Told the agents that they are free to invest in his district and that he would be appreciative of that
6. Told the agents that they don't need to spend a damned cent on this
7. Told the agents that he could speak kindly of them for investing in their business and that would work for him politically to show he is able to get business investments for his district
8. He even told them what is legal and that they are going out of bounds
9. Any sort of investments have to be dealt with legally and politically and that he needs to know details before discussing further
10. A few investments in his district will get the attention and everything has to be above board or otherwise people go to jail.
11. The people in his district will be supportive of investing companies and will want to advertise the fact and that Murtha was helpful. It's a good thing when done properly.
12. Introducing legislation is only legal when initiated by people in his district.
13. The LEGAL and ETHICAL way for a company to have legislation drafted is by investing in the district, lobbying the people of the district to initiate the laws and then Murtha can respond.
14. He gave examples of ways that this has been done successfully and unsuccessfully in the past.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.

What Murtha Didn't say:
1. He didn't take money to draft legislation
2. He didn't say he would draft legislation for investing in his district
3. He didn't guarantee the agents that they would get their legislation proposal supported by the people in his district.

Murtha was completely above board on the entire issue and educated the agents on the legal and ethical issues of lobbying.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2725397

[texpatriot2004]

2. I think Murtha is being smeared on purpose and you're right we

ought not give it "feet."

[Virginia Dare]

4. Holding our elected officials accountable is an issue...

I will not let that go. I don't care what party they are from. The systemic corruption in Washington has to stop. We can start right here and right now, by holding those in our own party accountable for it. If we continue on with business as usual, this is going to be a very short ride.

[Goblinmonger]

6. But he already was investigated

THREE DECADES AGO. No charges were filed against him. The accountability was in the late 70s and early 80s. Why do you think this is being brought up now? Hmmm? Because it is still an ongoing investigation? Probably not. Because he might be charged with ABSCAM crimes? No. Because the fucking republicans have nothing better right now and people polled that they voted against republicans because of scandals? I think we have a winner with that one.

It isn't business as usual. He is going to vote for the reform measure. He has said so.

[Virginia Dare]

36. Good I hope he does...

and I hope he knocks off the influence peddling with his brother too. I will fully support him if he does those two things.

[hfojvt]

59. this article mentions more current issues

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1114-23.htm

David Corn and Common Dreams are now anti-liberal?

Just because we support Murtha's anti-war efforts, does not mean he is now perfect and we need to support him in everything. Don't we have better leaders?

[Dhalgren]

7. So who would you like for Speaker? Since Pelosi is either

corrupt or incompetent (since she backs Murtha), she obviously shouldn't be Speaker. So who's your choice?

[Virginia Dare]

33. If she tolerates corruption, no she shouldn't...

I haven't seen any evidence that she will. I think you are way over reacting to my post by the way. I don't really care what happened 30 years ago either, but there are other issues at hand. As long as Murtha agrees to ethics reform and doesn't stand in the way of any legitimate investigations, I will have no problem with him as majority leader.

[CAcyclist]

47. Ok, then , what about the proposed replacement for Rumsfeld?

Are you as concerned about these ties as you are about Murtha's? They are significantly more suspect in my book. Don't you see how the RNC and the MSM are redirecting peoples' attentions to a nonscandal?

Robert Gates: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_16.htm

The Investigation


Gates was an early subject of Independent Counsel's investigation, but the investigation of Gates intensified in the spring of 1991 as part of a larger inquiry into the Iran/contra activities of CIA officials. This investigation received an additional impetus in May 1991, when President Bush nominated Gates to be director of central intelligence (DCI). The chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) requested in a letter to the Independent Counsel on May 15, 1991, any information that would ``significantly bear on the fitness'' of Gates for the CIA post.

Grand Jury secrecy rules hampered Independent Counsel's response. Nevertheless, in order to answer questions about Gates' prior testimony, Independent Counsel accelerated his investigation of Gates in the summer of 1991. This investigation was substantially completed by September 3, 1991, at which time Independent Counsel determined that Gates' Iran/contra activities and testimony did not warrant prosecution.1

Robert Gates , according to BBV: ( http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/45174.html )
Gates was on the board of directors of VoteHere, a strange little company that was the biggest elections industry lobbyist for the Help America Vote Act (HAVA). VoteHere spent more money than ES&S, Diebold, and Sequoia combined to help ram HAVA through. And HAVA, of course, was a bill sponsored by by convicted Abramoff pal Bob Ney and K-street lobbyist buddy Steny Hoyer. HAVA put electronic voting on steroids.

[Virginia Dare]

48. I am concerned about the systemic corruption in

Washington, yes.

[blondeatlast]

61. This needs to get way more attention, but damn if we don't go reactive

on our own. Such a convenient diversion from Gates.

I'm old enough to remember Iran-Contra and forgiving and forgetting won't happen here if I can help it.

[zreosumgame]

8. he was CLEARED concerning ABSCAM

watch the Spinning Zone and Flush and O'Lielly all you want, but facts are facts. He did nothing criminal according to the FBI and the justice system, so what's your beef now? Sorry, but being programmed by Sean Insanity, Flush Limpballs or Bull O'Lielly does not a scandal make.

[Goblinmonger]

10. Thank you

It's like I fucking walked into FreeRepublic this morning. Jesus. LET IT DIE.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. They Are The Miscreants Who Put Party Over Principles.

I want my leaders to be beyond reproach.

[Goblinmonger]

19. And Murtha was cleared by the FBI

There was an investigation, charges were filed, and Murtha wasn't one of them. As far as ABSCAM, it seems he would be beyond reproach.

Why do you think this is being brought up 30 years later? Do you think we should reopen the Chappaquiddick investigation, too?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Think Chappaquiddick Is A Red Herring

And Ted Kennedy wasn't acting as a U S senator that evening...


As to your first point...If no charges are ever brought against Bu$h does that mean he's beyond reproach...

[Goblinmonger]

44. ABSCAM is as much of a red herring

right now as Teddy's problem. The repubs are digging it up because they have nothing better. Stop giving it legs.

[sallyseven]

23. see if you can find a party then.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I'm An Naif. I Expect Our Leaders To Act Nobley And Be Virtuous

eom

[zreosumgame]

24. never gonna happen unless you want a computer to 'lead'

and even then what about the programmers? You are DEMANDING an impossible standard and using rumor and innuendo to make your 'case'

[NaturalHigh]

5. How long ago was it...

that everyone around here liked Murtha? It didn't take long for the vultures to move in.

[Goblinmonger]

9. No shit.

I would think that people would be smarter than to parrot what Hannity said last night, but I guess not.

[CAcyclist]

46. People are naive. They don't realize they are being used.

I am as much for honesty and trustworthiness as the next Democrat, but we can't let the RNC and the corporate media create a scandal that doesn't rightfully exist. Look at what they did to Clinton. Look at how Kevin Shelley was hounded out of office - and the man is a hero - even go back to Jim Wright - what he was guilty of was nothing compared to what the corrupt Republicans are doing - we can't have one low standard for Republicans and one unattainable one for Democrats.

Let us not try and hang our Democratic leaders in the MSM. Let us be confident in the judicial system - if a man is cleared, let that be the end of it.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Let's not settle for "compared to the Republicans...

our guys are clean". Let's clean up the whole system.

[Virginia Dare]

13. I don't dislike Murtha...

and I'm not swooping in, but I will criticize him for his questionable ethics in the past. I will question Hoyer, and any others as well for that matter. I think that Murtha has some valid points about the war, and I think he should have a real voice in Congress on this and other issues.

[rinsd]

20. To be honest for all their claims of being informed, Duers do not know the guy

All they saw was war vet comes out against the war.

They didn't see his conservative credentials which would have turned off many a DUer.

Its all about framing.

Hoyer is DLC and therefore evil. Murtha is not DLC and against the Iraq War, therefore he must be a progressive.

[Goblinmonger]

26. At least those are reasons to dislike the guy

Saying he should step down because he was cleared of something 30 years ago is just bullshit.

[rinsd]

32. He shouldn't step down. But he should not be Majority leader

I'm not crazy about Hoyer's ethics either.

[rinsd]

11. Yeah forget that whole accoutability thing when its our guys

Murtha just issued a statement saying the new ethics rules drafted by our Democratic leadersip are crap.

In the 90's he attempted to make prosecuting ethics issues harder by putting a short time limit for the committee to act.

The LA Times reported last year that he was steering pork to clients of his brother's lobbying firm.

WTF is wrong with DUers because one guy has the DLC the label the other guy must be a saint.

[emulatorloo]

16. Do a little more research on that "crap" quote --

misquoted by the media apparently -- crap that we need an ethics rule, becuase we outta be ethical without rules was basically the sense of it. . .many threads have this info.

[rinsd]

22. Worst clarification ever

Might as well have said "we don't need no stinkin badges"

[AnnInLa]

18. well said

Surely there must be some non-baggaged, anti-war Dems out there?

[OzarkDem]

98. He's been held accountable, its done, its over, nothing to it

Case closed. Move along.

[emulatorloo]

12. DU gets buffeted about by every Right Wing Lie Machine production

I see a million threads already that according to "sources" Abramoff has "implicated" Reid.

Who the hell are the "sources" and what the hell does "implicated" mean -- is this just a rehash of the BS from a few months ago where Reid was "implicated" and the cleared.

It is getting kinda tiresome --

[trumad]

38. Really---the diff here is you have experienced old-time DUers

who are worried about this guy. We're no fools.

[tulsakatz]

17. ..and since he refused the money

I don't see where the scandal is!!

I mean, if anything, doesn't this prove that he can't be bought?

[gkhouston]

27. what's amazing is that this is the BEST they can come up with?

Something that happened decades ago that Murtha was cleared of? Either the Dems are squeaky clean or we've been out of power so long nobody wants to bribe us or the RW think tank is running on AAA batteries this week...

[trumad]

31. He didn't take any money with his first visit....

oh but he clearly had his eyes on it....

[Goblinmonger]

42. For his DISTRICT

How the hell do you know that he was going to take money? He clearly states in the video that he is doing this to help the economy of his district.

[trumad]

50. No he didn't....

go back and view the video again.

[Goblinmonger]

52. Yes, he did

But I want to do business with you. I mean I want to get the goddamn jobs in the area, you know, a few bank deposits in my area. Nothing I'd like better.

He is very clearly talking about hoping that these guys will bring some business to his district, which if I recall correctly, was hurt pretty badly in the shitty economy of the late 70s. Damn him and his concern for his district. Bastard.

[trumad]

57. a few bank deposits

to his friends....

[Goblinmonger]

80. Well, Mr. Fill-In-The-Blanks

Where, in that video clip that you tout so much, does he EVER tell him what banks to use, what town to do business in. NOTHING. Just that he is working to get business to his district.

Maybe, "bank deposits" was code for oral sex. Let's kick out Murtha because he was giving votes for blowjobs.

[tulsakatz]

102. I saw the Hardball interview this morning..........

...and he said the only reason why he talked to them was because he was looking for an investment in his community. He said these guys had $50,000 in a drawer and he was not interested in that.

[Goblinmonger]

104. And that matches EXACTLY

what the transcript of the tape says. Go figure.

Let's throw the bum out. :sarcasm: for the impaired.

[FogerRox]

21. UR right, ABSCAM is dead, but not the CREW charges

[GymGeekAus]

56. Yeppers.

Will people look at what the Center for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington has to say?

They called Murtha one of the 25 most corrupt congressmen on the Hill, you know.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

85. I suppose Melody Sloan is out to get him....

Yeah, right.

[OwnedByFerrets]

25. Its not just the one scandal.........

I trust Melanie Slone and she says (CREW) that we should be careful of jumping on the Murtha bandwagon.

[originalpckelly]

29. As we all know CREW is such a right wing organization...

especially when it's headed by Melanie Sloan, whom makes appearances on Air America regularly and worked for John Conyers and Joe Biden.

:eyes:

[dogday]

34. Have they charged him? Have they ever charged him

with a crime? Murtha is a heck of a person, who ministers to the sick and injured soldiers, who is trying to save lives by getting them home...

Unless the FBI is at his door, there is nothing to see here, move along everyone....

[trumad]

37. Jesus---that's not the point

I want the leader to be above reproach--- Is John Murtha beyound reproach?

[originalpckelly]

39. I like him because of his position on the war, but I think it makes us look corrupt...

have him as majority leader. Corruption was right up there with the war, on the exit poll voter's minds.

[Goblinmonger]

43. So do you think that it is just a coincidence

that Hannity, Bill O'Fuckhead, and Rush Airbag are bringing up this 30 year old "scandal" that he was cleared of "just because." Come on, don't be so naive. This is all they have. If they had something else, they would run with it.

[dogday]

40. What does above reproach mean

to you? Do you have some proof or just inuendo?

[w4rma]

71. Trumad, you are usually more attune to propaganda than this.

Murtha was investigated in a 30 year old bribery case involving lots of people. He was *not* one of the people who they found to be guilty. That is everything that the opposition have come up with against Murtha. *everything*.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. Have they charged Bush with anything? Cheney? Rummy?

No?

Look, for me it's like this... I don't want any hint of any corruption on either side of the aisle. I'm not going to be a hypocrite. Instead of defending blindly let's see where this ends up.

[Goblinmonger]

51. Who gets the position, then?

How far do we dig? Do we kick out Teddy K from the senate leadership positions then? At some point we gotta let these things go when there were no charges.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Please Stop Dragging Ted Kennedy Into This..

He's right on all the issues...

He has to live with the fact that poor woman drowned in his car, wrecked his presidential aspirations, two of his brothers got caps behind the ear and a third brother was shot down in WW2, all in service to their country...

When it comes to being a senator there is not a hint of an ethical lapse around him.

[dogday]

53. A hint of corruption... What hint?

what makes this so damning? And instead of judging and damning so quickly, why not give this man the benefit of the doubt? He is trying to bring the soldiers home.. He spends a great deal of his time ministering to soldiers....

Where are the charges after 26 years? Come on, we both know as soon as they can, there will be charges filed against this corrupt administration, heck we have not even gotten the power yet to do that, but we will.... But the Republicans have had plenty of time to charge Murtha and have not... I would like to think our system of government is innocent until proven guilty, especially here at DU..

[USA_1]

54. ABSCAM Scandal

The investigation was conducted when the Democratic party was in control of the Justice Department. Most of those implicated in that scandal was Democrats. The fact that the party's DOJ operatives were willing to hold people from their own party accountable for any wrong doing shows that it is a party of integrity. Murtha was not indicted for any crime because he did not do anything illegal. Clearly he was bluffing. Had he been a crook like Senator Harrison Williams (D-NJ) he would have taken the money and gotten himself into jail.

John Murtha's record is eminently clear. There is no scandal now nor will there be one.

[FogerRox]

63. Forget ABSCAM, but do look at the CREW charges

[lillilbigone]

69. And what are those CREW 'charges'?

Steering money to his district.

http://www.beyonddelay.org/summaries/murtha.php

Yawn.

[FogerRox]

87. It is a little more current than ABSCAM.

[NCarolinawoman]

58. Murtha blocked over site concerning contracts for Iraq.

His brother is a big time lobbyist for the Military Industrial Complex, and there is some murky business
about Murtha funneling stuff to his brother.

I heard all this on Al Franken yesterday. After the non-partisan guest was on, Al Franken and Lawrence O'Donnell changed their mind about him. So did I.

I don't want people like Joe Sestak, Patrick Murphy, and other new squeaky-clean Dems being tainted by this. Many ran against big lobbying groups and corruption.

Hoyer seems to be the better of two bad choices.

[FogerRox]

64. I agree, NCarolinawoman

CREW was on Franken, I heard that too.

[emdee]

65. He was cleared 26 years ago....

do "they" have anything, say, in this DECADE on him?
emdee :shrug:

[GymGeekAus]

66. There are more recent allegations.

Yes, they are from this decade.

[PassingFair]

67. What are they?

Let's hear 'em.

Are you keeping them IN YOUR SLEEVE?

Details, please.

[GymGeekAus]

68. These from CREW.

http://www.citizensforethics.org/activities/murtha.html

http://www.beyonddelay.org./summaries/murtha.php

[lillilbigone]

70. So he is charged with

having a brother who is a lobbyist.

[GymGeekAus]

72. Congresscritters are responsible for maintaining appearance of ethics.

I know this is complicated. But they're supposed to make sure that they don't even display the appearance of unethical behavior.

I am just waiting for Murtha to explain CREW's allegations.

[lillilbigone]

75. You're gonna have a long wait.

Since there doesn't really seem to be much to explain.

[GymGeekAus]

76. Pardon me for not giving you much credit here.

After all, you didn't know it was being talked about, right?

You fell for the quarter-of-a-century old story bait-and-switch.

[lillilbigone]

82. Why would I care if you 'give me credit'?

You have no idea what I know or don't know.

c ya :hi:

[GymGeekAus]

97. Did I mention your concern?

Indeed, not.

I do not have any idea what you know or don't know. I only get to read what you type.

And I formulate my opinion based upon that. Which I'm permitted to post about, since that is the nature of the message board. You know, sharing our perspective, our experience, our opinion....

Why would you care about my opinion? I dunno, but you brought up the whole caring thing. Must be on your mind.

Twisted, huh.

[PassingFair]

77. Those allegations look like *crap*

He is NOT in the 20 Congress Critter, he is included in the less illustrious
"5 to Watch"
:rofl:

PLANTS were BUILT in his district in each of those "cases".
Read the "allegations".

[GymGeekAus]

79. All I'm asking for is for him to answer the allegations.

Not difficult.

Especially for a Congress that is being positioned by our party as the most ethical ever....

[emdee]

88. Actually, the one going out positioned themselves as "the most ethical"...

after the corruption we've seen over the last six years, I would position myself in Murtha's camp over any of the outgoing "ethical" yahoos.
emdee

[GymGeekAus]

95. Hello. We're talking current events.

We are talking about a Democratic party decision. About Pelosi's recent characterization of the new Congress.

This isn't Dems vs Repugs. There are no outgoing ethical yahoos in this discussion.

Are you claiming that Hoyer is a Republican? Sounds like what FOX News did with Mark Foley, after he was outed as a gay man with an active interest in 16 year olds. You saw that, right? They kept mislabeling him a Democrat. Shocking, a major news network making those kinds of mistakes.

This discussion has nothing to do with the GOP, sorry.

[blondeatlast]

73. Let's not discuss Iran-Contra and Robert Gates at DEMOCRATIC Undergound, by any means.

:eyes:

Not to mention Gates' involvement in HAVA.

No, let's rip our own a new one--it's so much easier to piss on each other instead of the other side.

Don't you think the RRR would be all over this if it had merit?

[GymGeekAus]

74. Threadjack much?

Start a thread. Not that complicated.

I would have thought that was last week's news anyway.

[blondeatlast]

81. Let me explain "irony" to you.

On seciond thought, I'll go check on my thread in GD/P on that very subject.

Yeah, lecture me. I've been here for 4 years and have over 25K posts.

Holy hell, why am I wasting my time with you?

[lillilbigone]

83. LOL

When I clicked on the headline of your post, I was gonna say: "why are you wasting your time on this?"... but you beat me to it....

[GymGeekAus]

100. Obvious threadjack.

And both following posts failed to address my point of the "last week's news" bit.

Hmmm. Fascinating.

And my understanding of irony is being questioned to boot?

Comical.

I bet I can guess why you're both "wasting your time."

Kinda sad.

[texpatriot2004]

78. kick nm

[Recursion]

84. The "scandal" is not the problem: blocking ethics reform is

Unless he's convinced me that he's come around on ethics reform, I can never be behind him for majority leader.

[Goblinmonger]

90. Some source that he is going to block ethics reform?

All I have heard on this thread and elsewhere is that he will vote for it because that is what Nancy wants.

[Recursion]

93. The "source" is the Congressional Record

And the fact that he already did block ethics reform (along with 3 other DINOs)

[Goblinmonger]

101. Even CREW

who put him on a watch list, quotes him as saying he will support the bill "because Nancy wants it."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. Whether he's a democrat or not should be ignored.

I don't know enough about the specific accusations against Murtha to comment informedly on whether they have merit or not, but I will say this: don't let his party make a difference.

The end of the road that starts with being more willing to forgive ones own politicians for ethical transgressions than opposing ones is very, very dirty indeed.

Imagine what you'd want done if the same accusations and evidence were made against an ultra-conservative Republican you despised. That's what you should want done about Murtha (conversely, when accusations are made against a Republican, imagine they were against a Democrat you supported). If you regard the evidence against him as a problem if it were against a Republican then fair enough.

Any ethical system that isn't impartial is worthless.

[Clarkie1]

91. Murtha does not stand for me. The politics as usual stops right here, right now.

If not, we DESERVE to lose the house and Senate in 08'

That is all.

[LittleClarkie]

94. Since when is he "politics as usual"? Not too long ago he was

speaking truth to power, and many here loved him for it.

We let them discredit anyone on our side who has teeth. That's a shame.

[upi402]

96. Yep, it's the CREW charges. We *have* to be clean

unless they're mostly all tainted...
We have to have moral purity or the media will slime away our moral authority. We have no media so we need a far higher standard.

[texpatriot2004]

99. kick nm

[texpatriot2004]

103. kick nm