I've been asked to write a letter of rec for Marine officer training.

[Jed Dilligan]

I barely know this kid--just one of 200 undergrads in my class. He showed up at my office hours to ask for my recommendation to go to Marine Corps officer's school.

I asked him why he wanted to join; I wanted to make sure he wasn't depressed over a breakup or something. He assured me it was a lifelong dream of his. I told him his major would open up a lot of career opportunities in the military, so he should keep studying even if he goes in.

I agreed to write the rec based on my TA's impressions of him. He seems like a nice boy but awfully young to be leading men in battle. So I'm very ambivalent about the whole thing. I think if he's declined officer training, he will go in as a grunt, which I think would increase his chances of dying. So I might be saving his life by writing a glowing recommendation...

On the other hand, I try to teach my students to be the opposite of good soldiers, to think independently, to break rules if they need breaking. It seems like a bad recommendation from me would be more of a recommendation for military service than a good one.

What do you think, DU? Is anyone here familiar with the process of evaluating these candidates? How important will my opinion be? And what could I say that would make or break his chances, if anything?

[nam78_two]

1. Sorry I can't be of any help but

good luck with that! You have a hard task.

[HereSince1628]

2. When I do recommendations I answer the basic questions

I leave my opinion of their choices out of consideration about the letters.

For kids that have a more mentoring relationship with me than their just being old advisees or enrollees in a class which is to say kids who actually value my input, I ask them to evaluate how their choice works into their career/life goals. I don't do that evaluation for them, but I tell them they shouldn't opt out for something quick that will have negative impact on their goals.

[Monkeyman]

3. Your Letter will be important

Look the kids going to go by what you asked. It would be better for him to go in as a officer. Be Honest I could not write that letter but I am bias I am a combat vet

[Book Lover]

4. You don't have to say yes

I mean, now you've gone ahead and done agreed to do so, but I do wonder why. You're not even familiar enough with this student to write the letter based on your own familiarity with him...

[Jed Dilligan]

8. It was kind of an on-the-spot thing,

hard to say no to a person right in front of you. Now I regret not stalling for more time.

[jody]

5. Your rec will be used and I suggest you stick narrowly to the things you know to be true, e.g.

- grades compared to other students,
- self-discipline re assignments,
- any performance as a group leader,
- any behavioral problems,
- ability to get along with others, and
- is he a natural leader?

Even though most Americans including me don't support Dubya's war in Iraq, we still need a strong military force and that means we need young leaders fresh from college.

:hi:

[Nimrod2005]

6. I am glad you posted this....I would say call another meeting with him, find out more

get a bit political if you can...Ask him how he would define good vs. evil? what does he hope to accomplish once he is in?....etc.

If he comes from a military family and he is truly set on joining, I would write him a great rec letter so that he can go realize his dreams and be the beast he can be. If he is going in because of moeny...etc. than I would hold back and tell him so...

I admire you for what you do, not easy...

[INDIA]

7. I graduated OCS last summer.

I didn't end up taking the commission for medical reasons. It was a great experience, and I'm pretty familiar with the process.

I think the rec. is definitely a factor, but the most important factors are things you have no control over, like his grades and level of physical fitness, and lack of a criminal record, no past drug use etc.

If you have any other questions, go ahead and shoot.

[Jed Dilligan]

10. Just a quick one: how old are you?

Not to pry or anything. It's just that this kid seems like a teenager to me. He should be goofing off with his pals when he's not hitting the books, at least for a couple more years. But I don't want to impose my own ideals of human development on him, either.

[INDIA]

12. I'm 23.

Your student won't be able to take his commission and go active until he graduates, (usually around 21 or 22) and then the Marines give him another solid year or more of training until he is really ready to "join the fleet" or go out into the real Marine Corps, possibly serve in Iraq etc. If he wants to be a pilot it'll be at least 4 years after graduation until he sees combat.

If that seems young to you, keep in mind that the average age in the Marine Corps is between 18 and 19. They ask a lot from young men, but be sure if the Marines don't think he's up to the task, they'll kick him out. The whole mantra behind being a Marine officer is SAVING the lives of your Marines in combat, and if they don't think you have it mentally, they won't take the risk.

Marine Corps OCS is the most difficult and challenging "boot camp" (civilian to active duty) training the military offers. It really tested my limits mentally and physically and I learned a lot about myself.

Keep in mind that there is no "signing your life away" like in the enlisted ranks. He is allowed to pull out of the training any time before his commission date, so he will have AMPLE time to think about his decision.

It really was a great experience, and I'd recommend it to anyone with the physical and mental strength to make it through.

ON EDIT: I remember my young english professor was a little taken aback when I asked for her rec. as well. She asked me why I was interested in it, and politely listened while I told her my reasons. I'm sure I looked a little scrawny and weak at the time, but three years later I was mean and lean and 100 times mentally stronger than I was before. Don't think the Marine Corps is lowering the bar to take in unfit officers, it's actually the opposite. The application process is more difficult and the training is DEFINITELY more intense than ever.

[razors edge]

23. So if I understand you,

you never actually served on active duty as a marine corps officer?

If that assumption is correct, do you think it possible that the ideological training you received in OCS, may be somewhat different from what actual service in a Marine unit may be?

[INDIA]

29. Of course.

When did I ever state otherwise? Could you be more specific about what you're alluding to.

[razors edge]

30. Just that everything changes

once they own you. At Paris Island, individualism is not only suppressed, but stripped from the recruit, depending on where one goes from there, different levels of individuality and critical thinking are encouraged or repressed depending on the level of need for such traits in that given MOS.

The officers I dealt with were, how do you say, somewhat, more friendly, than the officers that lead grunts, we fixed their F-4 phantoms, and they didn't want to walk home.

I remember very well showing up for my first duty station after training and being told to forget everything I had been taught before, it was not just good advice, it was the way of the job.

I worked very closely with the pilots every day for three years, partied with a few after work from time to time, and after four years of keeping them alive so they could keep the grunts alive, I truly believe they were given that same advice. The thing that impressed me the most with our pilots was that they served one year out of every four as a grunt officer, it kept them familiar with what it was they were flying for.

[Wildewolfe]

9. Though it may seem different through the eyes of the MSM...

... our military in general treasures it's folks capable of independant thoughts and ideas, even while the administration might not.

Those people become the leaders of the next generation and the hero's of the generation that follows that. Names like Pappy Boyington, Patton, whatever you might think of them individually they certainly weren't sheep and they certainly didn't always follow the rules.

In the modern battlefield it's all about information and applying it quickly. You may be teaching the next MacArthur how to save his country 20 years from now.

To serve or not to serve is an individual question and conviction. If he has the conviction the BEST thing you can do is give him the education you are already doing. His convictions will carry him the rest of the way, you are planting the seeds on how to serve Honorably and what to do when your orders conflict with that honor and having the integrety to stand with your convictions. Your job in teaching him might only be a passing chapter in his life, but don't discount the value your lessons may have on him later.

----------

Gods that sounded preachy and corny... but eh... tis how I feel.

On review... I guess Boyington WAS a "Black Sheep"... ;p

[Jed Dilligan]

11. Thanks

After the discussions here re Lt. Watada, I got the impression that questioning souls have no business in today's military.

[hvn_nbr_2]

22. FWIW, my experience with independent thought in the army 35+ years ago

I was a draftee during Viet Nam, but fortunately was sent to Germany. I worked in a division headquarters paper-pushing job. I never saw any evidence of any toleration for independent thoughts and ideas, certainly not questioning, below the level at which final decisions were made. Let me explain that.

My job was to do the paperwork related to various kinds of "getting out early" discharges, including getting kicked out for lesser reasons than courts martial. I typed up "decision papers" on individual cases of soldiers they were trying to kick out. Generally, the decision consisted of whether to kick the soldier out (or give a second chance or transfer or try some other kind of rehab) and what kind of discharge to give him (honorable, general, or undesirable)(Every case was a "him," BTW.).

The final decisions on these cases were made by the division commanding general, a 2-star general. But the decision papers had to go through a whole chain of people, each of whom made their recommendation on what to do. I gave the paper to my sergeant, he gave it to the lieutenant who gave it to the captain, to the major, to the light colonel, to the colonel, and finally to the general. I learned that inevitably every person in the chain would recommend "nail his ass to the wall," but the general actually read the information, exercised critical judgment, and either signed it as prepared, or sent it back with a note to the effect "This one doesn't really warrant a nailing to the wall."

In those cases, I'd type a new decision paper recommending whatever the general said, and everyone from the sergeant to the colonel would recommend the same thing.

Since I knew that the general would actually exercise some judgment and that no one else along the way would, there were a couple cases where I could see that somebody was getting the shaft (undesirable discharge, no benefits, bad rap, when it was largely a personality conflict with a CO or he just never should have been in the army in the first place), so I would prepare a decision paper that made it obvious to the general what was going on. In those cases, I would type up a decision paper that verged on satire to anyone with independent judgment. "This evil soldier tied his shoes crooked and looked cross-eyed at a sergeant. Nail his ass to the wall." Invariably, whenever I did that, everyone up through the colonel would recommend "nail him," and the general would say, "Let's give this one a general discharge."

Other than that general, the closest thing to independent judgment I encountered was the officer who decided how many minutes before lunch time a group of soldiers should pick up cigarette butts along the general's path to lunch.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Well-a few random thoughts.

First, by way of background, I was an Army draftee after college & was put into the infantry, where they tried to harrass me into going to OCS. My major reason for declining was the fact that in that war, as probably in most, 2nd lieutenants did not have a good life expectancy. Platoon leaders were far more likely to get killed than just about anyone else in the infantry, except maybe point men & RTOs (radio operators), the latter because they had to hang around the officers & they had those big whip antennas marking their positions. Infantry offiers only had to serve 6 months in the field before being rotated to rear-echelon jobs. Despite my own intense focus on self-preservation, that seemed fair to me.

If the kid wants to go into the Marines (a lifelong ambition, no less), he's probably already lost. If he wants to be an officer, is it really your role to try to save him? I think I would write the recommendation based on whether he's qualified (or, more accurately, obviously disqualified) rather than using the recommendation as an opportunity to substitute my judgment for his on the issue of what he should do with his life. Remember too that ALL those officer-trainees are incredibly young. They're all just kids. Nobody else is stupid enough to do what they're called upon to do.

As far as the importance of the recommendation, I bet they mostly just want some relatively responsible adults to stand up & say the kid doesn't have 3 heads or something. Right now I assume that there are only 2 items on the OCS admission test: 1) Is the recruit warm?, and 2) Does it seem to recognize its name?

[INDIA]

14. "Nobody else is stupid enough to do what they're called upon to do."

I take offense to that, I don't think I was stupid, nor or my friends who are 2nd Lts right now.

While at OCS there were plenty of kids from great schools, (Brown, Georgia Tech, Harvard), none of them "stupid."

Also, the application process and training are very selective, it's very VERY difficult to earn a commission in the USMC these days. This is not the Vietnam era military.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Thank you for your service though.

[Jackpine Radical]

20. I consider myself appropriately chastized.

[Jed Dilligan]

15. Thanks

Once again, I have no desire to manipulate the process or the kid's life. I'm just curious about the process and how my letter will be read and the candidate judged. I am so unfamiliar with military standards that I'm afraid of accidentally dropping some sort of bomb.

If the kid wants in and he's qualified, I support his going. A lot of what I say will be based on a conversation with my TA, who is more familiar with him (I hope!)

One thing: I don't think the Vietnam-era casualty rates for officers vs. men hold true today. As sniping and firefights become more common in the Iraq War, that might change. But it's also a lot harder to tell officers and men apart with today's uniforms.

[msongs]

16. why give second hand information? If you can't comment, don't.

let your TA write and sign the letter. Or admit up front in YOUR letter that you are basing it on somebody else's knowledge and you are not personally qualified to comment.

then you have told the truth and will not have to second guess yourself.

think of it as just a letter to the former student stating your TA's opinion of the student.

the student can show it to anybody he/she wants.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Jed Dilligan]

18. It's pretty much standard procedure in academia

A lot of undergrads actually graduate without ever speaking to a professor. I don't know if it's "right" or not, but if I refuse to participate I am handicapping my students against those whose professors do.

The fact is, colleges are pretty crowded places and a lot of recommenders start out not knowing the people they're recommending. We talk to them, review their coursework, get the opinions of people we trust, and distill all that into a letter we sign.

[eallen]

17. The marines emphasize independent thought in their junior officers.

The stereotype of slavish adherence to orders from on high is just that. As to youth... well, that has always been the case. My father was a captain flying paratroopers in the Pacific theater when he was 20.

[stanwyck]

26. True. And the Marine who was on Olberman a couple of

weeks ago who is leading the group of military personnel who oppose continued occupation in Iraq said he has not been harassed by his fellow Marines, including his superior officers.
By the way, the Atlanta Journal Constitution reported last week that the Marines have more college graduates than any other branch of the military -- which was a complete surprise to me, my husband, and our Marine son. Our perceptions aren't always accurate. Thanks for your post -- and helping people to re-examine our preconceived notions.

[frustrated_lefty]

19. No matter what you do, be honest.

If you don't feel up to writing a glowing recommendation, tell the kid, and explain your reasons. You can, and probably should, state either to the kid or in the recommendation your hesitance because of your personal feelings about the war.

It sounds to me as though the young man in question hasn't made an impression on you. If that's the case, he probably doesn't have the drive you might associate with a man with a purpose. I may be off here, but, in my experience, you tend to notice the driven ones.

Your recommendation, if you choose to write one, will be incredibly important. It sounds like your heart isn't into writing one. Rather than trying to figure out what to say to "make or break his chances," you might just want to be honest and tell the young man you can't, in good conscience, write a recommendation.

[Jed Dilligan]

21. I'm really wondering not how to manipulate the result,

but what to avoid saying that would nix it for the kid.

A letter of recommendation doesn't have to be a good one. The burden's on the student to find people who will recommend him highly. Maybe I am his best bet--the reality is, he might have spoken to me more than any other professor he's had. I won't say anything I don't know, if that's your concern.

Fortunately, the form has a box for "Have not observed enough to tell" in each category. It would be especially silly if I had to give a rating for "physical coordination and endurance," although a 90 minute lecture at 6 pm might fall into the latter category.

[Catchawave]

24. Why did he go to you ?

Obviously, you're either highly thought of by this young man, or he thinks you're an easy recommendation for OCS ?

My husband was a lovable jerk-off in college, but had his heart set on the Marines, and was laughed off by his favorite professors when he looked for recommendations also...in the 1960s. Long story short, he got into OCS...is now a retired Marine Colonel war hero..Vietnam, Beirut, Gulf War 1.

Look for those "diamond in the rough" attributes or refer him to someone who can :)

[Jed Dilligan]

25. Maybe he saw the anti-war stickers on my laptop

and figured I was his best bet... It's very hard to say.

My only guess is that being relatively young, I seem more approachable than other profs.

[Catchawave]

27. anti-war stickers = Marine Corps Officer School....LOL

Is there a Dept head you can consult with? Maybe many heads :D Career Counselor, who would put this all together for him? Unless this is a personal reference about character?

Way too much missing from your vexing situation !

[Jed Dilligan]

28. That's a good idea

I'll get info from the Undergrad Advisor as well as the TA. The UA is the one with the tissues on her desk--she gets to know most of our majors pretty well.


As far as careers go, the military is actually a pretty good place to practice what he's studying (environmental design) and I support the work of the many designers, ecologists, and geographers in the service. A lot of good people working to mitigate base impacts like ice plant invasion and munitions pollution.

:patriot:

[Jed Dilligan]

31. Mornin' kick.