You Can Mutilate A Woman's Sense Of Self Just As Violently As Her Genitals

[KittyWampus]

IMO, a woman's sense of Self and Self-worth is as real as her physical body and as capable of being subjected to violence and mutilation.

Our psychological body exists and it is as important to our functioning as our physical self.

Wearing a full body mask, designed as part of a misogynist culture, is just as violently mutilating to a woman's Being as cutting her genitals.

Just because mutilating a woman's Self and Self-worth doesn't overtly cause blood to flow, doesn't mean wearing a full body mask doesn't do deep and lasting damage.

Of course there is the indirect sense of blood flowing should a woman dare to step outside the role of owned objecthood her culture demands she live in. NOthing like honor killings and stonings to keep women in place.

Of course if you are a Materialist who believes that the physical world is all there is and that the human personality is just a meaningless illusion, then you'd probably disagree.

[LARED]

1. self delete

[cali]

2. Grotesque comparison

First of all, genital mutilation afflicts 100% of those who suffer it. I completely doubt that that's the truth with women who wear Burqas. You're transposing your cultural norms over others. I'm no fan of burquas, but you simply can't compare genital mutilation and burqua wearing. One thing I would like to note however, is that societies that demand that women wear burquas also tend to deprive women of many rights, and oppress them in other ways.

[lonestarnot]

11. You are right, however they belong in the same category: gender abuse.

It's bullshit and I call it!

[Ms. Clio]

17. I'll second it n/t

[jpwhite]

3. why isn't anyone in the bush administration speaking out about this?

Why is no one in the Bush administration speaking out about how people in the middle east do not treat women with respect? It's because they don't want to ruffle any feathers, especially the Saudi royal family. This is disgusting what is being done to women in the middle east. The mutiliation of a woman's private area is repulsive. Then they make women wear full body suits because men can't handle the temptation. What a bunch of hooey!!!!

A mature and responsible man acknowledges that other women are attractive, but makes a very clear distinction between other women and their wife. Also, mature men know that women can do a great job in the modern workforce and appreciate a woman's point of view. I have had male and female supervisors and gender was not a factor in whether they could do their job. It was mainly an issue of inner drive and the willingness to go the extra mile. Some people have it and some don't.

One day all people will be treated with dignity and respect. Right now we are a long way off from that. No female should ever have their private area mutilated!!!!

James
[e-mail]

[distantearlywarning]

4. Agreed. n/t

[FloridaPat]

5. No one in the * administration is speaking out about this because the

religious right wants Christian women to have the same rights and privileges as the Muslim religion. They are very upset that we women have come closer to equality over the last 100 years or so.

[PirateJoe]

29. seriously misinformed

religious right wants Christian women to have the same rights and privileges as the Muslim religion. They are very upset that we women have come closer to equality over the last 100 years or so.

well, if that isn't a blatant lie, i don't know what is. please try to learn about the culture you're bashing before you do so.

btw, i am not christian, but i do know many christians. none of them have ever advocated oppression to women as you see in the middle east.

[Ms. Clio]

33. You must not be talking to Southern Baptists

who tell women they should "submit" to their husbands.

[FloridaPat]

42. You should listen to some of these people. 9-11 was God punishing

the US for allowing feminism. Womem shoulnd't work because they shouldn't make more money then their husbands. They should stay home and raise a house full of kids. They should be volunteering more, not getting jobs. The trouble with the US today is women working and not staying home to take care of the kids. '

Nice quotes I've had to listen to my whole life. The religious right is as bad as the Muslim clergy. And I know a lot of the US culture. More then I really would like to know. Women in this country had very few rights until the 60's. I was here. I remember. Women couldn't generally get high paying jobs. They were forced to rely on their husbands. They couldn't have careers except speical ones while they waited for mr right to come along. ( teaching, nursing). They were suppose to stay home and raise kids and make sure the husband - the king - had everything he needed. I'm not Christian either - for the above reasons.

[Ms. Clio]

43. they couldn't get a loan or a credit card in their own names, either

We really are not that far from the bad old days. And lest we forget, women still earn only 74 cents to every dollar earned by a man in this country.

[Crim_n al]

6. But what's the problem? This isn't being done to men, is it?

Don't you realise people are just asking for it when they get born as women?

Why would anyone even want smelly untidy lower parts, and an organ which does nothing but cause pleasure and desire, when the unsanitary design god gave females and their desire to pursue their own pleasures are the cause of all war and violence in this world?

It's nothing to do with materialism. It's just a practical matter of realising god didn't have a clue what he was doing when he created women, so it's up to the men of this world to remake women to fit an intelligent design standard.

The women who have been lucky enough to be improved in this way, and are being protected in their safe homes by caring male, and given appropriate clothing so that they can make their occasional excursions into the public world without embarrassment, are happy that their worth is being preserved.

After all, they are lucky enough to have not been aborted or left in an orphanage for being female, as happens to so many little girls in this world. And their purity is being preserved by these methods. So, as long as they keep their mouths shut if they get raped, they can probably avoid getting murdered by their families or whipped or stoned to death for immodest behaviour.

Life is good for these women, and, even if it isn't, how are they going to know, provided they are deprived of any public education? It's not as if they have anything to compare it with. And, as for the ones left to starve when they are left without a man to care for them and are unable to go about unsupervised in that society, that's necessary in order to show other women that they must take good care of the men in their lives, no matter how badly the men treat them.

The only reason more men of our culture don't push to have this system instituted here is sheer laziness. They don't want to have to support a woman and be responsible for her and her children. They'd prefer to spend their money on alcohol, ciggies and guns, and have their children put in a creche while their mother goes to work. Government and big business here don't want it either, as they don't want to pay a living wage to their workers. And why should they, when paying only a pittance means the workforce is doubled by the mothers struggling to "put food on their families" and then the wages can be lowered even further?

[VelmaD]

7. Be prepared

There are people on this board who claim to be liberals who see nothing wrong with covering women from head to toe if it's done in the name of religion or culture or whatever. Doesn't matter that women are given no voice in determining the rules of that religion. Doesn't matter that the culture treats them as second class citizens at best and property at worst. The simple fact is that not everyone on DU actually believes in equality for women. It's sad...but it's true.

[Rex]

18. You expect too much from humans.

I once did the same thing.

[pooja]

8. I agree that having to cover your face is a bit crazy. You become

nobody behind that mask. But at the same time, the clothes of the western world are just as damaging... the clothes that are "in" have little to them... its all about the sexy body and what is desirable for a man to look at. This is just as damaging. I don't think we need to cover all up, but I don't think we need to be overly exposed... both have to do with men and what men want.

Before you bash other culture's, clean up your own back yard.. quit buying Glamour and Cosmo.. quit buying makeup and hair products. If you want to self impose yourself as a rolemodel.... be the rolemodel in your community... be what you want to change.

[Crim_n al]

9. It's so good to see a woman here brave enough to tell other women

that exposing skin is only done to please men, and not for coolness, comfort, convenience or because a woman might take pleasure herself in how she looks. Using "hair products" and lipstick is never done because we enjoy looking good, it's all because we are mindlessly trying to impress the bus-driver, our male co-workers or some guy in our lives.

Obviously purdah is unsuitable for our society, so let's compromise. We should send a parcel to each household containing a letter explaining why women don't have to dress to please men, a long-sleeved boiler suit for each female member of the household to wear, and a garbage bag in which they can dispose of all their beauty products and girl's magazines.

Everybody reading your post should understand your message that wearing purdah and wearing lipstick are much the same thing, and if we paint our nails we have no right to concern ourselves with women suffering equally horrendous types of oppression.

[hsher]

14. I got bashed here on DU for saying burqa and Hooters = same thing

All I did was ask why no one has wondered aloud why one half of our gender feels the need to have the other half dress and present itself an unnatural way. Ka-bam! Out came the trolls, and I left DU for awhile. Hooters and Spike TV really bother me. I try not to let them bother me, but they do. When I see women in cheerleader outfits, Lolita outfits, booty outfits, etc., what always comes to mind for me as a woman of color, is a minstrel show: the one with more power needing to see the one with less power dressed and painted in a form of submissive drag and acting less intelligent than it is.

Bottom line, isn't Hooters attire (whether in that restaurant or waving pom poms half-naked on the football sidelines, or on Spike TV, everywhere else, ad infinitum)* just really the female version of blackface minstrel drag? Is it a female minstrel show for men? I feel sickened wondering what I will tell my daughter when she is born, and we drive past a Hooters, and she asks me what it is.

*Edited to correct spelling of infinitum. I'm a former National Latin silver champ. I should know better.:blush:

[Ms. Clio]

21. of course, you're absolutely right -- some people should try worrying about the beam

in their own culture's eye.

[Crim_n al]

32. As soon as a kid is old enough to ask, they are old enough

to be told the truth. ... Or at least some of it. Passing on to your children an understanding of the world as it is, is one of the most important things you can do for them.

Kids can understand that society is imperfect, and that there are groups who misuse power.
I'm all for the right of any girl to dress like a Hooters waitress if she wants, but the constant barrage of girls seeing being sexy as the way to get what they want saddens me.

How often do men have to look appealing and fuckable just to get respect or be liked?

In our society, all too often a man is valued by what he does, and a woman is valued by what she looks like. It seems that sport for men is playing rugged games, and sport for women is titillating the guys who play the games.

Perhaps longer breast-feeding would help guys grow up without such a need to gaze at swollen breasts later when all they really need is a cup of coffee.

[BlueStorm]

38. I agree with you hsher...

I can see what you are saying. We really are no better at giving women their rights than in the ME. I really do feel that women are just as oppressed here. And yes I feel that the whole thing is a minstrel show.

I was watching Keith Ablow a few days ago and the subject was about grossly obese women who are happy with their bodies, one even has an adult magazine out feature such larger women. My dad kept making comments like "I bet that girl has a pig tail on her ass." and "Ugh, yuck" and such. When one of the women said that they feel sexy the way that she is my dad made the comment that he almost had milk come up his nose. Now I personally thought the women were too big but I commenended their bravery to come on TV and state how they felt.
The audience wasn't forgiving either, laughing in the background, groaning when the pair shaped woman stood up and showed her unique shape, and it was a unique shape. Some audience members did show concerns for their health but the women on the panel claimed that they were active, ate well and were healthy.

The only thing that was upsetting me were my dad's comments. He even told me, and he was being honest with me that he wouldn't go with someone my size (195 lbs.) But the juvenile comments and behavior while watching this show just tells me that this society is very narrow minded when it comes to women. That women have to look and act a certain way to be acceptable.

I guess that is why I like certain actresses like Raven-Symone, America Ferrera, Monique and the Hispanic woman on Grey's Anatomy which I can't think of her name right now.

Blue

[Withywindle]

40. Oh, c'mon, that's hyperbole.

We really are no better at giving women their rights than in the ME. I really do feel that women are just as oppressed here.

Really? Really? Overstated.

I can wear pretty much anything I want. I may be judged negatively for it in one way or another (whether it's as "frumpy" or "slutty" or what have you) but everybody gets judged by what they wear here. I'm not required to show off my hot bod anymore than I'm required to wear a black tent that hides me completely (I try to go for a happy medium most of the time...:D)

I went to college. I can drive. I can vote. I can travel. I've competed and co-operated freely with men all my life. I had the option of pursuing pretty much any career I wanted. Is it a totally level playing field? Of course not, but I'm not forbidden from TALKING to my male co-workers. I'm a grownup and so I don't need permission from my father to do anything. If I slip up and cheat on my partner it might destroy my relationship but I probably wouldn't be stoned to death. If someone wants to marry me, he has to ask ME, not my male relatives, and if I don't wanna, I don't gotta! And my cootch is still the way the Goddess made it, and I can say for pretty much sure all my friends can say the same. (Can you imagine the horror an average American man would feel confronted with a partner who was mutilated that way? I don't think I could deal with it.)

To say it's the same is ridiculous. Have you ever heard of a case of a Western girl being threatened with being beaten to death if she didn't wear lipstick, and having that threat be culturally sanctioned? Has an adult, professional Western woman been prevented from going on an important business trip because she didn't have a written permission slip from her father? Do a Western girl's brothers routinely get together and plot to kill her because she "dishonored the family" by, say, meeting with her male history teacher?

[BlueStorm]

44. Ok, I stand corrected...

I guess I was trying to say that women in the media are objectified. But yes, women here in America do have more rights than elsewhere in the world. I guess I just worded it wrong.

Blue

[Withywindle]

45. I hope I didn't come down on you too hard there...

I definitely agree that attitudes and real progress for women in this country have a long way to go! I just...well, there've been times I thought it might be nice to move to Norway or the Netherlands. It's never seemed like a good idea to move to Saudi Arabia. :D

[dysfunctional press]

10. so- what is the "full-body mask" of which you speak with such disdain...?

just wonderin'

[WinkyDink]

12. Well, maybe the material world IS all there is. Or not. But IMHO,

ending this one hideous maltreatment of women, genital mutilation,---i.e., one step at a time, and, in this case, a huge step---seems to have more of a chance of success than the ideal of transforming entire misogynistic cultures.

Some cultures oppress and degrade by covering up their women; some do it by encouraging the UNcovering of their women. The difference seems to me to be the women's opportunity of choice.

[Berry Cool]

13. Maybe we have hit on a real question here.

How much of women's dress, in ANY culture, is done because THEY think it's the right thing and THEY want it, and how much of it is because their SOCIETY thinks it is the right thing and their SOCIETY wants it? And can they even tell where their own desires and and society's begin anymore?

I think that's a good question.

A woman may say she chooses to wear a burqua or chador because of her religious faith. But how much of that is "choice" and how much of it has been drilled into her head by her religious leaders from childhood?

Another woman may say she "chooses" to wear makeup. But how much of that is "choice" and how much an inculcation by her society that her face is unacceptably unattractive or naked if she does not?

Or how about a woman who "chooses" NOT to wear makeup? Is it really a choice, or does she feel she won't be taken seriously as a committed feminist if she wears it?

For all of us, free choice is never entirely free. "Free choice" is just the decision we make after our society has set its rules and expectations of us, and then asked us "Do you want to follow these or not? Realize that you will be judged accordingly, no matter which choice you make."

[hsher]

15. If makeup weren't required, and I'd never heard of it as a child...

I wouldn't wear it. That's ten minutes off of my day right there that could be put to use on better things. Sometimes I find myself taking out that Revlon tube, dialing it up, and swishing it across my mouth, and I wonder, "Why am I doing this...?" My immediate thought right after: "Lips are ugly without color on them. Always color your lips. Don't inflict your pale, dry lipstickless lips on other people; that's not polite." No kidding, I think this.

If I were a man, but not into cross-dressing, and not a rock star, would I have this thought worn into my brain like a groove?

[WinkyDink]

25. I think similarly! And I never wore make-up until I was about 19, and then only mascara.

The Western World, with beautiful young models starving themselves, is clearly messed up regarding attitudes towards females.
But the rest of it, with our ability to walk alone in public; to marry freely; to become educated; to run for political office; to become, in therapy-speak, self-actualized---is not to be down-played when comparing the West (i.e., countries influenced by the European Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment) to some other cultures.

[Nikia]

16. I disagree

Genital mutilation is a permanent thing. There is always a chance to get rid of the offending clothing if it bothers the woman. In some societies, like Saudi Arabia, there are penalties for not being completely clothed as well as many other abuses aginst women. In other socities, where veiling is tradition, some women are in various states of veiling and have a choice about that sort of thing. They might choose to veil or cover more in some environments but not others.
Women here choose the extent that we cover up, although veiling is generally not done except Muslims and nuns. Like women in areas where the extent of veiling is optional, we might choose various states of covering up in different situations.
As for me, I am glad that I work in a workplace with uniforms, which are the same for men as women. No make up, jewelry, or nail polish is allowed. Steel toed shoes are required footwear. Hair nets are also required. At least at work, I can be just a person holding my specific position. I do not have to be judged by the extent of my clothing or make up. It doesn't make me feel like less of my self, but more of my self in a way.

[Ms. Clio]

19. what do you think "Girls Gone Wild" does to a woman's sense of self?

[hsher]

22. I'm wondering what sense of self makes them "go wild"

There's obviously some damage there. Somehow, some of these girls (I am not saying "all") have gotten somewhere the message that exposing their breasts and pudendae to men will attract the approval of the men they desire. But then this could be a primate thing. Female apes expose their hindquarters to male apes to express a desire to mount and mate. Maybe it's the same thing.

[Ms. Clio]

23. I find those commercials so offensive and degrading

One girl looks likes she's drunk and on the verge of tears as she pulls up her top.

The message is that women are valuable to men in our society only when they are stupid, slutty sex objects.

[hsher]

28. Disturbing

And you are absolutely right. The message that we are nothing unless we put out is all over MTV and in the media, for instance. How many female pop stars have you seen since 1986 who keep their clothing on while singing? Ooh, this is a rant coming... this is a personal soapbox of mine, let me try to stay under control as I type this... since Madonna's arrival, why is it women have been unable to access the powerful public platform of rock and pop stardom UNLESS WE DRESS LIKE, GYRATE LIKE, AND LOOK LIKE STRIPPERS? I have zero problem with sexuality in pop. The two have always been kissing cousins. However, there is a very clear punishment/reward mandate in place in the corporate recording industry where women are concerned.

1. Female musicians who keep their clothing on are punished with invisibility
2. Female nakedness in pop music is rewarded by high visibility (look at Madonna vs. Cyndi Lauper)
3. Male musicians who promote violence, antisocial behavior and drug use are rewarded
4. Male musicians who do not are punished with invisibility

Take one look at rap and hip-hop and tell me if this isn't so. An entire culture of young men aspiring to be pimps and prison felons, and young women aspiring to trick or look like they do, has arisen just because rap and hip-hop won't go away. I'm black and I want them to go away. In 1990 I wanted them to go away. They didn't. They're still here. The corporate music industry continues to sign up rappers left and right, and the more hideous and misogynistic their message, the faster they get signed, the higher their visibility, and the greater their rewards from that industry.

[Ms. Clio]

31. great rant, I have nothing really to add except vigorous agreement

There was an author on The Colbert Report a couple of weeks ago discussing these trends -- I cannot for the life of me recall her name or the title of the book! -- and she mentioned something called "strippercise," I think, and that just floored me.

Much of what you discuss ultimately seems to be related to the money and the market, as well. Like advertisers trying to win the coveted 18-34 demographic, so the GGW commercials air during TDS and TCR, which is also disturbing. The images are everywhere, though, and relentless.

And notice how so many of the leading women in politics have clearly had some type of cosmetic surgery. I guarantee you that Nancy Pelosi's looks, clothes, and hairstyles will be featured in newspaper reports, etc.

Just wondering -- I know nothing, really, about rap or hip-hop, but a friend turned me on to a guy called Immortal Technique -- have you ever heard of him?

[Rex]

24. Think the same thing and

how odd it is that women can take clothes off or stack them on, both equally destroying their dignity.

GGW is on every tv channel in the land, something that is culturally accepted in America. Women exploiting their bodies for money or women hiding their bodies because it is the law?

Which is worse?

American women had to fight tooth and nail to get the 'right' to vote and that wasn't so long ago. We had the Abolishment movement, now when will there be a global movement to free women from ownership?

[Ms. Clio]

26. I think you are on to something -- it will have to be a global movement

just like the labor struggle.

[Ms. Clio]

20. FGM is also practiced by Christian Ethiopians and goes back thousands of years.

You are deliberately conflating two entirely different things.

[WinkyDink]

39. Old doesn't equal acceptable, necessarily. Think of what the modern

Maya might want their basketball games to be like.

[Ms. Clio]

41. nobody said it was acceptable!

I'm just pointing out that it predates Islam and Christianity.

Were the Mayas the ones who killed all the players after the ball game?

[Odin2005]

27. So I'm a sexist just because I'm a Materialist? Riiiiiiiight...

:eyes:

[WindRavenX]

34. I'm confused as to what a Materialist is

I think capitalism is repressive in many ways, but in no way does it specifically target women alone...

[Odin2005]

36. A materialist is a person who denies the existance of a spiritual world

[WindRavenX]

37. oh shit.

Guess I'm an evil materialist then....

[mondo joe]

30. And who is to judge for another if her sense of self has been mutilated?

[Crim_n al]

35. It's hard enough to see past your own upbringing and culture

and be able to judge whether your own sense of self has been mutilated.

Is "training" a tomato plant mutilating it?

There are many forces in our society that "train" women in this way,
but few women can see that there is any other way that they could be
or would want to be.