Should they reinstate the draft?

[Tiggeroshii]

[tritsofme]

1. Not only no, but hell no.

Better an army of professionals than an army of slaves.

[sarge43]

3. And in what world would types like the Bush pack not be able to

weasel their way out of it?

[Crunchy Frog]

31. George I wasn't able to weasle his way out of serving in WWII.

If a draft is ever reinstated, it must be structured in such a way that NOBODY could get out of it. If the Repugs won't go along, then we will have called their bluff.

[IndyOp]

5. There is a draft right now - a draft that sucks in kids who don't have

enough money to go to college or who don't think they are smart enough or whatever. They're already "slaves" and then off they go to the slavery of the military.

Do you see that? Or no...

:(

[tritsofme]

15. The military is one option.

Their servitude is voluntary.

There are a host of other option for these young people, some more desirable than others.

I think joining the military is very respectable and honorable, for those who choose to do so.

That man Rangel however should keep the military industrial complex off the hands of my kids when trying to prove a point about the inequities of our society.

[IndyOp]

27. A host of other option for these young people...

I don't think you know the young working-class people I know. They do not have a "host of other options." Their options: dead-end minimum wage job, living at home with Mom and Dad, military, or prison!

In the 60's the economy was such that kids who did not want to join the Army could get a good job working on the assembly line building cars, bikes, or what have you. Those decent-paying, raise a family without a college education jobs are gone. Now the choices are terribly limited.

The first story that pops into mind: There was the young man in my Intro Psych Class who worked at Walmart 40 hours a week, rode his bike on the highway 10-miles there and 10-miles back to earn slightly more than minimum wage. For some reason, he couldn't pay his tuition and fees with his pay, and couldn't keep his grades up so he joined the Army. The military industrial complex has their hands all over this kid and he is told that he is supposed to be grateful for having been lied to, used, and abused.

Why not your kids? If any kids, then all kids. Especially the kids who have an overbearing sense of entitlement after having had parents who pay for them to have every opportunity - especially they should serve.

[lovuian]

40. The signing in the Army is VOLUNTARY the Draft ISN"T

and so far My children won't be serving this corrupt government

[PassingFair]

44. Is that a joke?

Sorry.

[tomp]

57. so why not work to improve their lot...

...instead of drafting them. the whole idea is so ass-backwards, i can't believe so many people are falling for this illogic.

[goddess40]

2. only for those that vote republican

They're the ones responsible for this mess, they should be willing to die trying to clean it up.

[Buzz Clik]

4. No. During wartime -- maybe.

[upi402]

6. WITHOUT COLLEGE DEFERMENT ONLY...

...would I feel it is an idea that puts neocon skin in the game.

[Maddy McCall]

9. What about medical deferments?

If you're wealthy, you can have a doctor write your deferment "excuse."

[file83]

12. Doesn't matter - the Draft "Lottery" will probably be controlled by Diebold anyway...

...I'm sure that'll be fair. :sarcasm:

[tomp]

70. excellent point! nt

[bahrbearian]

19. Serve in Conservation Corps, or Urban Corps.

[Maddy McCall]

25. Or...the Texas Air National Guard.

Everything old is new again.

[bahrbearian]

36. Do you think the military is ready for that shit again,,,the monkey

ruined that one for the privileged.

[tritsofme]

16. Yea, because America's college campuses are filled to the brim with neocons

:crazy:

[upi402]

17. ...with other priorities

:puke:

Medical deferments, what to do?
Republicans might want to euthanize them before they breed into a less able working class.:grr: :spank:

[longship]

7. No, but Rangel is absolutely correct.

It's the process of talking about it that's important now. Whether or not we support a draft, and whether or not it gets reinstated, it is inescapable that ChimpCo has destroyed the military preparedness of this country. By initiating debate on the draft, people will come to understand just how badly ChimpCo has ruined things.

[etherealtruth]

8. Touche`

[sarge43]

14. Yes and bless him for putting it front and center. n/t

[Minnesota_Lib]

33. Bingo!

[tomp]

53. impeachment is off the table...

...but not the draft. love those dems!

[RestoreGore]

10. A Military Draft Is Unconstitutional

"Where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war, in which the folly or the wickedness of Government may engage it? Under what concealment has this power lain hidden, which now for the first time comes forth, with a tremendous and baleful aspect, to trample down and destroy the dearest rights of personal liberty? Sir, I almost disdain to go to quotations and references to prove that such an abominable doctrine had no foundation in the Constitution of the country. It is enough to know that the instrument was intended as the basis of a free government, and that the power contended for is incompatible with any notion of personal liberty. An attempt to maintain this doctrine upon the provisions of the Constitution is an exercise of perverse ingenuity to extract slavery from the substance of a free government. It is an attempt to show, by proof and argument, that we ourselves are subjects of despotism, and that we have a right to chains and bondage, firmly secured to us and our children, by the provisions of our government."
Daniel Webster.

And I agree with Mr. Webster. STOP FUNDING THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX and their wars of economic and political hegemony. Don't expect our sons and daughters regardless of political leaning to sacrifice their blood for it any longer.

[Mythsaje]

18. Great quote...

Thanks for that.

[RestoreGore]

30. You're welcome n/t

[TahitiNut]

21. That's been claimed in the courts (including SCOTUS) and repudiated.

Saying it over and over again just doesn't make it so. Nonetheless, I regard a National Service where ALL are required to serve is far preferable to a system that places the burden only upon some - whether through draft lottery or sperm lottery.

[RestoreGore]

28. Then point it out in the Constitution

Point out where you can take my child and teach him to be a killer against his will for the economic benefit of greedy old men. And here I thought the Democratic Party was the one that believed in personal liberty.

[Mythsaje]

37. That would be only SOME of us...

It's a "big tent," remember?

That means there are still some dark corners for the authoritarians to slip inside and lurk.

[TahitiNut]

45. You know ...

... it really gets disgusting when some people can't seem to avoid name-calling and personal attacks. Such incivility should, I would think, be more welcome at FreeRepublic than DemocraticUnderground ... but it seems to have become the preferred tone of posting for some. After all, a lot of imbeciles call themselves "libertarians" there.

:eyes:

[Mythsaje]

49. What--you don't like the term "authoritarian?"

Tough shit.

I personally despise authoritarians of all stripes, regardless of what they call themselves. I am ALWAYS the nemesis of anyone who thinks they have some right to force their will on innocent people.

[TahitiNut]

42. Here ...

http://128.91.58.209/Articles/19180108_DraftLawUpheld.pdf
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=245&invol=366
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_drft.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=240&page=328

Of course, this was before women could vote - or be conscripted. At least THAT was fair, right? :eyes:

[Mythsaje]

35. Institutionalized Servitude...

Sounds like a (fucked up) plan to ME.

And just because America's most elite groups repudiated makes it no less rational.

Funny, that.

[tomp]

54. stop u.s. imperialism!

great quote from webster!

[file83]

11. You think we're in DEBT now....wait until they reinstate the draft...

:yoiks:

[madrchsod]

13. yes if only everyone goes

and there are no deferments and that will not happen. well actually we do not need a draft until our war with china.

[Tesha]

20. A period of national service should be required of *EVERYONE*.

A period of national service should be required of *EVERYONE*.
Not necessarily military service, but service none-the-less.

Is that a draft?

Tesha

[tomp]

55. why? service isn't service unless it's voluntary.

it's slavery.

[Tesha]

66. Funny, my dictionary doesn't mention "voluntary" in any of its definitions.

> why? service isn't service unless it's voluntary. it's slavery.

Funny, my dictionary doesn't mention "voluntary" in any of its
definitions (American Heritage Dictionary, paperback edition,
1976). And "Slavery"? No. One could always choose to emmigrate
rather than perform the required service. But lots of countries
expect *SOMETHING* back from their citizens beyond the payment
of taxes.

And I think that would help unite these allegedly-United States.

Tesha

[tomp]

69. one could choose to emigrate?

you know, i grew up in the 60's and heard a lot of people telling me maybe i should try "russia" because i didn't like the ideas of my government. your suggestion is offensive, to say the least.

on the question of service: it is required of all, but each in his/her own way. not forced. very simple, but not in the dictionary.

sure, lots of countries may do that. i don't want that for my country.

[theophilus]

22. NO. Not as long as there is a 1% chance that some Republicon

administration will be in power and send my son to fight a Rich Man's War. Our Nation is broken right now and we need to fix it before we start a draft that can be misused. Having my son killed is more of an issue than being able to say, "See, I guess we showed them!"

[Coyote_Bandit]

23. Absolutely

BUT only if deferrments are something resembling close to nonexistent.

Why? Because it is easy to send somebody else (or their kid) to fight to suffer various injuries or to die. Currently, those most likely to join the "volunteer" military are those who have few other options and find it financially appealing or necessary. Most of those who are better off have options and do not voluntarily consider serving - and incurring the costs of doing so. If a draft is implemented then most of the people in this nation become personally invested in our military policies and actions for the simple reason that they likely know somebody involved.

Personally, I think a draft would awaken a lot of apathetic Amerikans. I also think a few hawks might have a change of heart simply because it might be their kid or grandkid taking incoming fire or at risk from an IED.

[sam sarrha]

24. that would end all corporate war, make a now deferment draft for the rich kids

all citizens serve equally.. in service in the Army or Peace Corps/VISTA for 2 years. men and women..

that would help fix a lot of social problems

[tritsofme]

26. It might end more conventional wars

But bombing raids on innocent people is always more palatable for politicians.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. Only if they make it so the kids of the rich and powerful

can NOT weasle out of service. I want to see Babs and Jenna in fatigues and boots patrolling the streets of Baghdad. If * is so committed to "winning" there, that's the least he should be willing to sacrifice.

[Art_from_Ark]

32. No way, no how,

especially not under this pretzeldunce who has no qualms about sending other people to die for lies.

[survivor999]

34. Let me guess about the vote split:

People over 40 with no kids -> YES
People under 25 -> NO
People with kids under 25 -> NO

WOuld the draft include women?

[Sapphocrat]

39. That would make a good poll itself:

Same question, but split the yes and no votes by age & whether one has kids or not.

Btw, as I recall, the Selective Service's current draft-plan-in-limbo does include women, and the maximum age is 45 -- with medical and computer professionals at the top of the list. That right there (the 45-yo upper limit) might change a few votes.

Sign me,

Grateful to Be 45 Now, Even Before They Overturn "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

[tomp]

56. over 40, no kids, no draft. nt

[Strelnikov_]

38. Well, The Volunteer Army Has Certainly Brought A Halt To Their Stupid Adventures

hasn't it?

The volunteer military should be maintained at such a level to maintain a viable peacetime defense. Any authorization to deploy the military at a wartime footing shall include an authorization to draft the required number of troops to replace the peacetime contingent going to war. Upon cessation of the wartime footing, the draft will end.

Think there would have been all the flag waving enthusiasm about going to Iraq if there was a risk of little Preston or Ashley being one of the 140,000 drafted for the war?

Unless there is a built-in mechanism for immediate sacrifice, there will be politicians willing to beat the war drums and place the cost on the national credit card and the manpower burden on the economically disadvantaged, immigrants and mercenary armies.

[Mythsaje]

41. It still seems like an end-run around the responsibility

of those in Congress to actually provide OVERSIGHT for the asshats in charge.

"Since we can't trust our Reps to protect our young, we're going to make sure everyone has a stake in the outcome of these war votes so we can raise REAL protests in the streets if we go to war."

Ignoring, of course, that we DID have real protests and the media blew them off.

[Strelnikov_]

46. We Need To Make Any War Authorization A Third Rail Issue,

by connecting it to a third rail, the Draft.

Reasoned debate does not appear to be working. Or have I just imagined the last four years.

[tomp]

58. no, no draft whatsoever at anytime under any conditions.

these imperialist motherfuckers cook up world war iii and you want to legalize impressed service for it? do you support them? are you mad?

if you can't get people to volunteer you must not have much of a cause. the individual must be able to decide freely what, if anything, is worth fighting for. there is no other reasonable position.

[Strelnikov_]

59. No, I Am Not Mad. And, Um, If They Screw Up With Their Wars Of Choice

and start WW III, do you think there will not be a draft? If you don't, then you are mad.

I want to prevent wars of choice by making these wars a third rail issue. The way to do that is to mandate a Draft with any deployment of forces as I have proposed.

[tomp]

67. you're the one arguing FOR a draft.

peacetime? wartime? makes no difference to me. you want to fight a war--any war, offensive or defensive--take volunteers. period. if you can't get enough volunteers, you don't have a good enough cause.

clear?

[Strelnikov_]

73. Not Really

I have stated my position. Your screed does nothing to change that.

[tomp]

75. not really?

really!

"Any authorization to deploy the military at a wartime footing shall include an authorization to draft the required number of troops to replace the peacetime contingent going to war."

try reading your own posts.

[Strelnikov_]

76. Really n/t

[madville]

43. I was active duty in the military for 5 years

joined in the late 90's, got more money than I could use for college and got to serve my country. It isn't a bad deal and the pay has gotten better since 2001. When I left active duty as an E-5 with all my allowances my gross pay was $3500 a month and because some of it was tax-free I was taking home $3100 a month in the bank.

I enjoyed my time in but I wouldn't want to be forced into the Army or Marines against my will and have to go to combat if that is not what I voluntarily signed up for in the first place. AN all volunteer force is what we have and a draft isn't ever going to happen anyway unless a real world war happens, we just need to get out of this mess and the military will be fine recruiting people the way it has done for decades up until this point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Sorry to call yuo on it

by my husband AS A CHIEF, E-7, with all the added bonuses of going to sea and hazard duty barely got that in take home pay...

So no, the military is not well paid, now if you took into acocunt food, shelter and medical yep, then you are talking about that much for an E-5

[madville]

50. No problem

My base pay was between $1800-$1900, my BAH was almost $1300, and BAS/seprats was about $250, then throw in another $30 or so a month for uniform items. My total Fed tax/Fica/etc was about $300 a month on the $1800 so, yes my take home every month was about $3100 a month. I had two roommates so I saved quite a bit of money on rent and utilities in the area we were stationed in so it worked out well.

I'm not saying it is a GREAT paying job but I wasn't starving either. Free medical, free dental, $4500 a year for tuition while active and then my GI Bill which I bought up in after I got out. I feel like it was helped me get where I am going today and made me a better person.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Ah ok you were living off base

that almost makes sense now

Oh and on edit, thank you for your service, but over here we were kind of scratching heads.

;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Yes the country needs it

the Armed forces are bankrupt and no deferements... the only possible one may be, your lottery comes up, you are in college, fine, yuo are now in ROTC, at the end of the program congrat butter bar. We will need the officers too

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. Hell No!

[Telly Savalas]

60. Anybody who supports a draft should put their money where their

mouth is and enlist or have their kids enlist if they're of age.

[Guaranteed]

61. Isn't that...what supporting a draft IS?

Assuming, of course, that you don't pull strings to get your kids out?

[Telly Savalas]

63. Why wait for the draft though?

If somebody feels that it is important for people to be forced into the military, they should get a head start and do it themself before a draft is instituted.

That's what I'm trying to say.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. No, there are plenty of happy idiots...

who are happy to volunteer someone else's kids. They proudly call it the "hit the public with a 2 x 4 approach".

[cooolandrew]

62. There are pros and cons either way

Someone said that with a draft every america will always stand with cindy sheehan. It would be no joke to send folks to war with a draft and I feel dems aren't that irrespsonsible if the draft is on the table.

Never again would cheerleaders come out for a war with a draft.

[LWolf]

64. Sure. If "they" want moms to declare war on them.

I'll be first in line with my declaration.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

65. I voted HELL NO but do need to explain exceptions

Republicans who still support the war
Republicans who still think Saddam attacked us
Republicans who don't support Bush but will defend him


And, of course, the Republicans in Congress AND their children!

[HughBeaumont]

68. They should reinstate PEACE.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. It's simple. Do we need a draft? If "no", then it's the stupidest idea ever.

The only reason for a military draft is military necessity.

If it's being proposed for ANY OTHER REASON it's stupid beyond all comprehension. It's a singularity of stupid, a vortex of idiocy into which all logic is inexorably drawn.

It's a game of chicken in which the cars contain an entire generation.

[Beelzebud]

74. 41% Yes? Is this DU?

This is why Rangel's bullshit bothers a lot of us.

It seems a lot of you think it's a good idea...

Vietnam taught this dumb ass country NOTHING.

Fools...

[HughBeaumont]

78. I sure as shit think it's a backwards and lousy idea.

"I'm anti-Iraq war, but we should all share, man woman and child, in the stake of this country regardless and sign up for the military! I hate this president, but we should all be willing to fight his wars!"

On one thread, someone actually mentioned "Freedom isn't free." Yes. As in



Un FUCKING believeable. DU has closet hawks.

[genieroze]

77. Hell No!!!!!