Teachers emphasize the Indians' side

[NOLADEM]

LONG BEACH, Calif. - Teacher Bill Morgan walks into his third-grade class wearing a black Pilgrim hat made of construction paper and begins snatching up pencils, backpacks and glue sticks from his pupils. He tells them the items now belong to him because he "discovered" them. The reaction is exactly what Morgan expects: The kids get angry and want their things back...


..."I think that is very sad," said Janice Shaw Crouse, a former college dean and public high school teacher and now a spokeswoman for Concerned Women for America, a conservative organization. "He is teaching his students to hate their country. That is a very distorted view of history, a distorted view of Thanksgiving."...

..."If you are going to teach, you need to keep it positive," he said. "They can learn about the truths when they grow up. Caring, sharing and giving — that is what was originally intended."...


...James Loewen, a former history professor at the University of Vermont and author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your High School History Textbook Got Wrong," said that during the first Thanksgiving, the Wampanoag Indians and the pilgrims had been living in relative peace, even though the tribe suspected the settlers of robbing Indian graves to steal food buried with the dead.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_re_us/teaching_thanksgiving


I think this is teacher is great.

This quote CHURNS my fucking stomach. "If you are going to teach, you need to keep it positive," he said. "They can learn about the truths when they grow up. Caring, sharing and giving — that is what was originally intended." People like this are created by such 'positive' teaching. Damn, those freepers love their sanitized, Americanized, Disneyfied history.

[WindRavenX]

1. That teacher is now my hero

:thumbsup:

Yeah, let's teach the history of our country by telling kids a lie--no wonder people don't trust teachers.

[EFerrari]

2. I do, too. And reminds me of once when my Nick was the first kid

in the door on Thanksgiving week, he found his teach putting up a construction paper Mayflower. He asked if that was the "invaders' ship" and she said, "yeah but please don't tell the kids."

lol

And this was in BERKELEY! :crazy:

[xchrom]

3. hey -- that's a fair reduction of what happened to

the first nations people.

and concerned women for america aren't interested in history, education -- they're interested in kids being ignorant -- except to sit behind a computer screen and compete for third world type wages.

[Annces]

4. Good for him

I hope he keeps his job.

[BattyDem]

5. Brilliant! He raised the issue with the children ...

in a way they could understand and relate to. No, it's not pretty, but that's history. That's reality. What's wrong with teaching the truth? Fairytales make good bedtime stories, but they have no place in history class.

A toast to the teacher! :toast:

[Vorta]

6. I would discipline that teacher.

He's not teaching the truth, because the impression the children would get from such a stunt is not the truth. The truth is complex and doesn't involve projecting modern sensibilities on our ancestors.

Get off the cross.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. LOL

:eyes:

[Vorta]

20. I'm glad you find it amusing. I'm guessing you don't have a child in school.

[Greyhound]

145. I'm just glad you're not teaching any other children.

Your fantasy seems to coincide with the idiot in the article that said "they can learn the truth when they grow up".

And we wonder how it all got so fucked up... just amazing.:eyes:

[Binka]

161. I'm Guessing You Don't Have Children At All

Your profile claims that you are an uncle, son, and brother. So you are not a father? Interesting that you have so much advice for people who are obviously both educators and parents.

Gee how special is it that you just showed up to school us? Really SPECIAL. Good luck with that.

[Vorta]

165. You're pretty special too. Thanks for sharing and Happy Thanksgiving.

Your profile claims that you are an uncle, son, and brother. So you are not a father? Interesting that you have so much advice for people who are obviously both educators and parents.

Gee how special is it that you just showed up to school us? Really SPECIAL. Good luck with that.



Notice that it says "full time uncle". Thanks for respecting our family structure. I am a parent.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. How is that not the truth??

The only way it could be truer is if he shot them with a musket, and THEN took their pencils.

[NOLADEM]

14. HA HA HA HA

Thanks for that. I haven't laughed that hard in days.

:rofl:

[BattyDem]

16. ROFL!

:rofl:

[WindRavenX]

17. or given them nap blankets with small pox

:)

[Ka hrnt]

25. Methinks

someone's been reading a bit too much Ward Churchill...

[libnnc]

27. Wow. That's the most ignorant post I've read this week.

I'm speechless.

[Vorta]

41. What, you didn't ignore button him? Did you forget?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. And miss the show? Miss him getting screwn?

No fun in that.

[Vorta]

52. I don't use the ignore button. Never have.

I'm interested in what people have to say, especially people who disagree with me. And yes, that's how I came across that website about the early remains. Political bent notwithstanding, no one should be standing in the way of scientific examination of discoveries like that for their own poltiical purposes.

[Lars39]

74. Amazing. I saw you work a thread from top to bottom this morning

telling people that you were putting them on ignore.

[Vorta]

93. I think you have me confused with someone else. nt

[Lars39]

144. You are correct...I sincerely apologize.

Lars39

[Vidar]

162. That would have been me, not Vorta.

[Ka hrnt]

125. So...

...when/where did it happen?

[Zhade]

79. This information is in government archives.

Are you truly THAT ignorant of history?

[itsmesgd]

100. Ward Churchill is a wannabe martyr

He is not a native american spokesman. He's not even a member of a recognized tribe. His ID card that he proudly displays is sold as a souvenier. He is a phony who wishes to use the native american platform to sell his books and speeches. He has not stolen land or property from the native americans, but in fact has done a far worse service by stealing their history as his platform for ranting and raving.

[Vorta]

103. I think he's like a lot of people

He feels a desperate need to be a part of a cause, identifies with it, and may have actaully convinced himself that what he was saying was true. There are lots of folks like him, we just happen to know who he is.

[itsmesgd]

105. I don't know if he identifies with them

or feels the need to be part of a cause, but he has done more harm than good and represented himself as something that he is not. There are many native american supporters who have no tribal affiliation, but they do not claim to be full or half-bloods. Many a non-native are very productive supporters. Plus he interjects his beliefs and arguments into places that he is not welcomed (regarding AIM). I liken his actions to a nosey asshole neighbor coming over to your house (uninvited) for dinner and begining to critize you and your family and then going over to another neighbor's house to tell your family's business and represent himself as a cousin. (Pardon the extended metaphor).

Simply put, he's not helping. He's a wannabe antagonist trying to pass himself off as a native american. I find everything that he does to be an insult.

[Vorta]

113. Is "full or half blood" the standard?

It's a question which dogs the victim hierarchy. One sixteenth black used to be enough to get you a miscegenation charge, but it would be the brave octoroon who held himself out as a black man for political purposes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

140. HARDLY a Ward Churchill thing:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_066.html

[Vorta]

24. Because it's simplistic

Perhaps on some Mexican commemorative day, said teacher ought to go into the class and kill half the students and enslave the other half.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Yes, it's simplistic.

It's not a very complicated issue.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

48. they're THIRD graders

older kids can understand the subtleties of details taught from the book, but younger kids need to feel to learn.

As a mother of 3 kids, all teenagers now, I approve of his style.

[LynnTheDem]

86. rotflmao!!!

Best response EVER!

[semillama]

118. No, there's an even more true way to do it.

He needs to give them infectious diseases as well, then force them all to huddle in a corner while he claims the "virgin territory" of their desks.

[WindRavenX]

11. and the truth is...what, exactly?

That America was completely uninhabited and some Eurotrash religious nuts just stumbled upon it? :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. At this point the "argument" usually is...

"but the indians killed other indians and took their land too."

[WindRavenX]

15. oy vey

I've been high all day, so this may just be me, but when did DU get so fucking rw?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. On or around the 7th.

They're getting desperate.

[EFerrari]

32. Right. And since we were more efficient at it, we should be proud

of our accomplishment. :crazy:

[The Straight Story]

54. Well...it is somewhat true.

To me the lesson is - people screw over weaker people all the time. We did it, they did it, others have done it. It is wrong.

Wrong that we did it. But to imply we were the only folks doing such a thing is where I have an issue.

Indians enslaved each other and stole land to. Wrong when they did it.

It is the action that needs the focus more so then the actor since so many are the actors just on different stages.

The story as I see it:
1. We fucked over the indians through superior power, lies, and cunning.
2. Indians fucked over other tribes the same way.
3. The Spanish did the same with Aztecs
4. Aztecs did the same to others.

And so on.

The REAL lesson here is abuse of power (much like with *)

YES we need to teach our kids how our country has done this in history - but it should be seen as a broader lesson so that light shines on all their future studies of people the world over.

The guiltless in one instance in history were the guilty in another part of it, and to stop history from repeating itself we must see the crap everyone is pulling and call em out on it. Most certainly ourselves included, but not to the exclusion of others.

[dalaigh lllama]

69. True. This has been a never ending story thruout history

One people subjugates another, who are then themselves subjugated, and so on. What's interesting is that (some segments of) modern society have reached a point in social evolution where we can look at what was done to the Native American population by Europeans and acknowledge that they were deeply wronged. That's progress, I guess. Heck, it took us 2000 years to advance from the Greek notion that slavery was a natural condition to the modern idea that slavery is wrong. So hey, if we don't all kill each other first or destroy the earth, maybe humanity might actually become humane in some future millennium.

[Toots]

114. Don't leave out Iraq

We are still fucking people over, nothing much has changed...

[Ka hrnt]

26. Well...

Was it completely inhabited? Did this "Eurotrash" set foot and immediately start slaughtering every indigenous tribe they came across? No. Like most things, reality lies somewhere in between the two extremes people like to paint.

[libnnc]

28. Where'd you get your MA in US History?

Nevermind...

<Ignore>

I'm too old for this.

[Zhade]

80. A box of Cracker Jack, apparently.

Probably thinks the sailor was one of our presidents.

[Ka hrnt]

124. LOL

Yes, because you insinuate you have a history degree you must know better than I...

[WindRavenX]

31. guess what percentage of the indigenous population was wiped out...

...as a direct result of our willful actions?

[Vorta]

40. He doesn't know, and neither do you.

That number is like every other political number, it varies by something like a thousand percent. Not to mention that "as a direct result of our willful actions" is a term you could drive a truck through.

[WindRavenX]

44. LOL

it varies by something like a thousand percent

I can't believe you just said that.

So, should we not care about how many millions died in the Holocaust? Or does that vary like something like, a thousand percent? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

PS, the answer is over 97% It was estimated that at the end of the 16th century there were 14 million natives; by 1907 the numbers was estimated to be 400,000.

400,000.

[Vorta]

56. Who are you counting?

Are you counting all the descendants of the Indians of Northampton and Accomac counties in Virginia? How would you count them? They intermingled and the government has been counting them mostly as black, but some as white, for as long as the census has been taken.

Are you counting the Nanticokes? They have been counted as white now for several generations.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. I am serious. How many millions of people are there out there claiming to be Indian? Most of these folks appear to have about as much Indian ancestry as I do. Many of them can't prove it. Some of them are basing it on a story their great grandfather told their grandfather when he was a child. Old men tell stories. The census records don't back up much of this.

How the hell would anyone know how many Indians there were in 1699?

[WindRavenX]

57. historical records...

...plus archaeological evidence all give varying estimates from low millions to the twenty millions. So what? How many remain today?

Even if you nitpick, the fact remains: an entire people was wiped out. Doesn't matter if it's 1,2, 3, or 30 million-- Columbus was the harbinger of their destruction.

Would you honestly apply this same argument to the Holocaust? Should we think any less of it if *only* 3 million died? Why is this even being debated?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

84. Agreed. I've found a lot of claims of Native American ancestory.....

...boil down to being based in the disgustingly racist idea that Indians had some sort of penchant for "seducing" (a polite and "romantic" way of saying raping) white female settlers, and somewhere along the line, "one of the wimminfolk" must have gotten it.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

89. actually, my family married them brown "wimmenfolk"

and I have the family records to prove it. Not one story in the family of rape by the red man. Sorry to disappoint.



:freak:

[Alamom]

Same here, WITH records

They married and lived with the Cherokee in Georgia for over 100 years
...until Andy Jackson decided they couldn't stay in Georgia... anymore.

[zreosumgame]

129. Same here, my great-grandmother was my favorite

her mother was full-blooded Cherokee and proud of it. She taught her daughter to be proud of it as well.

[Vorta]

147. rape

Not one story in the family of rape by the red man.

There are those though, who point to the fact that nearly all "white" people who claim Indian ancestry do so through a maternal line as evidence that these women were "taken" in subjugation. These would likely be the same people who would explode if a person were to suggest that the reverse imbalance in interracial black/white marriages/couplings is evidence of anything other than true love.

[H2O Man]

97. Actually the

overwhelming number of people who claim -- correctly or incorrectly -- to be "part Indian" trace it to a female Indian and non-Indian male. In my life, I have never heard of, much less met, a single person who made the claim that you say is common.

[H2O Man]

95. The Nanticokes ....

You are confused.

[Vorta]

104. I don't know what you are saying. Could you spare a few more words?

[H2O Man]

106. Sure.

You are wrong.

[Vorta]

111. Please say what it is you are taking issue with.

I should have said "many". Without clarification you aren't being helpful.

[H2O Man]

115. I would question

what you would base that "many" upon?

If you actually have an interest in this issue -- an I really do not think that you do -- you could start with a source like Barry Kent's "Susquehanna's Indians." It has some interesting documentation on the Nanticoke. A decade ago, there was some controversy over the Pennsylvania policy for reburial of the human remains that were in university museums, etc. Briefly, there were some non-Indian people who were sincere but mistaken about who they are. They believed that they were Delaware, Nanticoke, Susquehannock, etc. I was asked by the Haudenosaunee members of the Grand Council that are involved in such issues to write up a formal paper that documented who, according to the federal law signed by Bush the Elder, had the legal authority to rebury those remains. My paper was part of the Haudenosaunee position that the state accepted.

Historical records of the Nanticoke that are of interest include Governor John Evean's 1707 account of Dekanoagah, and go up to the fascinating community of Otsiningo (near Binghamton, NY) during the Revolutionary War. A study of their clans supports the oral traditions of Iroquois in regard to where in the Confederacy various Nanticoke and Susquehannock peoples were taken in during the Revolutionary War era.

[Vorta]

116. I don't know if you were being snide or not.

I probably am not interested in this in the same way that you seem to be. I am aware of some considerable debate regarding the Nanticoke, and am not involved. I am a lay researcher whose interest in the Indians of the Delmarva peninsula is only peripheral to my mapping of several colonial families and their descendants. As far as I am concerned, if someone wants to call himself an Indian it's OK with me. I will probably doubt the truth of it, but it doesn't really matter.

There is a certain fashion not only to Indian ancestry but also to Negro ancestry and illegitimacy as well. I don't understand it, it gets people excited. It also shows an enormous ignorance of the rigid social structures, especially regarding marriage. Many people are referred to me for my unpublished data, and a fourth of them have some story for which I can't find any support, frequently a story of Indian ancestry. What often happens is that they have a family story, and then find a confusing census record, which solidifies the story because it isn't being examined carefully.

My own story is my great great grandmother. In her portrait (1860) she looks like Pocahontas in a ball gown. Her surname by birth is indeed associated with Nanticoke indians but there is nothing concrete to base a claim of Indian ancestry on. Records only indicate a continuous English ancestry. That line was Quaker though, so you never know.

[H2O Man]

119. Circa 1860

a group of Nanticoke from the Maryland area had moved into New Jersey's Lenape territory as a result of a blight known as "peach yellows." They tended to work on farms, and to keep largely to themselves. In time, although they remained primarily with other Indians, they lost track of language and other traditions, In the 1970s, they joined the Lenapes and incorporated as the Nanticoke-Lenni Lenape Indians of New Jersey.

By the 1980s and '90s, some of their leadership had moved. Though it's been years, I still have in some misplaced address books some of the old contacts. There was Teri in Harrisburg; Tom in Chemung; and Katuha in Telford.

I knew three elders who spoke some Nanticoke, which comes from the oldest Iroquois dialect, Onondaga. They've all past on. They were a good resource for the "place names" that are often associated with different, though related, groups.

Everyone's ancestors were tribal, and not that long ago when we look at the history of the human family. The clanna system of the British Isles isn't that different than that of the woodland tribes. The history of the family includes a heck of a lot of mixing of the old gene pool, thank goodness. Hence, I am less interested in what a person's ethnic background is, than in what they think, how they act, and why. At the same time, I think that exploring one's family history, and putting it into the context of human history, is a good thing.

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. The number fell by 90-95% because of smallpox...

that came to the New World with the Spanish in the early 1500's; as to the rest, it doesn't differ materially from the conquests of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians, Romans, etc. Throughout history, the side with better organisation, better technology and greater numbers has almost invariably won. Combine superior organisation and technology with the fact that the natives had no resistance to European diseases and succumbed in tremendous numbers almost at the outset, with entire areas of the Americas being depopulated ahead of the expansion of European colonisation, and the outcome was inevitable.

[WindRavenX]

73. yup

I object to the portrayal of western civilization's interactions with the new world as privileged or somehow divine/chosen compared to the other (many) instances of a civilization being conquered.

[Igel]

43. By some estimates 85-90% of the population was taken off the top,

of course the actions were slightly less than intentional and many areas suffered before Europeans even knew the areas existed, much less were populated.

[Ka hrnt]

128. "Our"???

Give me a break...none of my actions hurt the Native Americans, and I seriously doubt any of yours did either, unless you've smashed the record for oldest living human.

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. Let's discipline the ones that talk about slavery, too

How DARE that teacher "project modern sensibilities."

And I really think they need to stop teaching about the Holocaust. It was a totally different era.

:eyes:

[Vorta]

23. OK let's go with that.

Today we are going to learn about Alexander the Great. I'm Alexander and I just got here in your country and I am going to kill a third of free men, enslave a third of free men, conscript the rest of the free men, and the ones of you who are already slaves are gonig to stay slaves.

Now do you really think that was a valuable lesson?

[H2O Man]

30. Keep going.

Speak the truth, brother! If those Africans hadn't been so happy to comer to this country, they wouldn't have chained themselves to the ships coming here.


Now ain't that a valuable lesson?

[Der Blaue Engel]

35. Why not?

I'm not sure what's objectionable about learning the truth about any event in history.

Or are you claiming that what the teacher did is tantamount to coming in and killing students to make a point?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Ah, see #13.

Right on the script.

[Vorta]

42. I saw 13 before I posted.

You don't think I would let that stop me. Besides, it's not the same argument. But since you mentioned it- the oldest remains in the US are European. According to somebody, that's all it takes, right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. No, but it's an equally ridiculous argument.

You switched "Indian" to "Alexander."

Probably because you already say #13.

"the oldest remains in the US are European."

The oldest remains in the U.S. are North American. They're somewhat vaguely Europeanish.

To say they're European is the sort of revisionist history popular in the white supremacist community.

[Vorta]

49. Getting serious now, if you care to of course.

Have you ever looked at a map of the Arctic without the ice? Somehow in all the years of study, I only recently saw that map. I was thrilled. It could explain so much, including why every ancient people believes that they have always been where they are, despite no evidence of a cradle land.

I personally believe that if the true cradle land is not in the Arctic, it's probably under some place in China that has been continuously inhabited, and where we will never find it becuase it's under people and buildings.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. That's getting serious, is it?

It's seriously something.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

66. Not European.... Asian.... Pre-mongoloid to be exact...

this relates specifically to Kennowick Man (who is not the oldest but shares most markers with the oldest, linked below)

Examination of the skull by anthropologist James Chatters revealed a long, narrow skull and face, a projecting nose, receding cheek bones, a high chin, and a square mandible. None of these features is typical of modern American Indians, but they are found on other Paleoindian skeletons roughly contemporaneous with the Kennewick remains. Such features have previously been described as "pre-mongoloid," "proto-mongoloid," "archaic-mongoloid," and even "proto-caucasoid."

The last term, in particular, has led to some confusion, with New York Times reporter Timothy Egan calling the skeleton "Caucasian" and saying, "It adds credence to theories that some early inhabitants of North America came from European stock." But according to anthropologist Donald K. Grayson of the University of Washington, "the use of the term caucasoid really is a red flag, suggesting that whites were here earlier and Indians were here later, and there's absolutely no reason to think that."
http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/kennewick.html

Oldest remains...
In 1959, the partial skeletal remains of an ancient woman estimated to be 10,000 years old were unearthed in Arlington Springs on Santa Rosa Island, one of the eight Channel Islands off the southern California coast. They were discovered by Phil C. Orr, curator of anthropology and natural history at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History. The remains of the so-called Arlington Springs woman were recently reanalyzed by the latest radiocarbon dating techniques and were found to be approximately 13,000 years old. The new date makes her remains older than any other known human skeleton found so far in North America.
The discovery challenges the popular belief that the first colonists to North America arrived at the end of the last ice age about 11,500 years ago by crossing a Bering land bridge that connected Siberia to Alaska and northwestern Canada. The earlier date and the location of the woman's remains on the island adds weight to an alternative theory that some early settlers may have constructed boats and migrated from Asia by sailing down the Pacific coast.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779260.html

[H2O Man]

98. Way wrong.

But don't let the truth invade your belief system.

[Vorta]

102. If it didn't matter, there wouldn't be such a fight over it.

[H2O Man]

108. I never said

"it doesn't matter." That thought belongs to you, and you alone.

I did say that you are way wrong. That status belongs to you, too.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

83. Question about the slavery discussion

Do you want them to touch the matter of how the slaves came into European hands? Some might be squeamish about the idea of African "prisoners of war" being traded or sold by members of their own race.

[Der Blaue Engel]

91. You know what? I'm not playing this little game.

As a country, we need to take responsibility for the wrongs WE committed, and continue to commit. We need to stop lying to our children and to ourselves and blaming the victims or the times.

Wrong is wrong no matter who commits it or when. Somebody else's complicity doesn't let us off the hook.

I really have to wonder about your motivation in asking me this question.

[Vorta]

101. You're playing a different one.

At least you aren't claiming to simply want the true story told.

Look, I'm not descended from anyone in Massachusetts. My people are from Virginia. I don't want children taught a fairy tale, but Thanksgiving isn't a fairy tale, it's a custom based in historical events. We do clean up these things, as do all cultures. We glorify our ancestors. This is no different than the way Indian heritage is presented. If anything, Indians are portrayed in a deliberately favorable light. I don't know where you grew up or what culture you grew up in, I spent my first ten years in the rural south. We didn't play cowboy and Indian, we played Indian. Sometimes with Daniel Boone, sometimes without. But we never thought of Indians as being anything other than a great people. I was 35 years old before I learned that several members of my family were viciously murdered by Chickamauga in 1794. That didn't change how I felt about Indians as a race and culture. Does the fact that the Cherokee Nation was allied with the Confederacy change how you feel about them? It doesn't change how I feel about them or what happened to them before or after.

It's hard to look back with detachment, especially if we identify with one side or another in any given historical snapshot. I happen to think that Elizabeth I was probably the single most important woman in history from the standpoint of a person living today. This despite my having considerable Scottish ancestry. I am given to fantasy, and occasional lose myself in historical daydreams, all of which are ruined by the realization that had anything been done differently, we probably wouldn't be here talking about it.

Every culture glorifies itself. Every year Passover is celebrated. Do we ever rip it apart and get into the Egyptian version of Exodus? No. Why? Because the observance of Passover isn't about trashing the Egyptians, it's about celebrating the spirit of the Jewish people from Exodus to Diaspora to the Pogroms to the Holocaust to modern Israel. It isn't about victim hood, it's about survival. Pow-wows and other Indian cultural events are big business in this country now, very popular. Are they about getting into the nitty-gritty of the actual lives and morals of all Indian people? No, they are about celebrating a rich history and considerable folklore. They draw all kinds of people, and children leave with stories in their heads that they will play out over and over while they run around in their moccasins and other souvenirs.

All I am saying is that I don't want children to have their culture trashed. You can teach history to young people without doing that. We certainly don't do it to other cultures and we shouldn't be doing it to our own.

[Karenina]

127. America has NEVER owned up to the truth

of its origins, history or military misadventures. Her culture is based on LIES and MYTHS, which go a long way to explaining the tacit acceptance of the holocaust being perpetrated against the Iraqia today.

Would you object so vehemently to German elementary school children being exposed to the history of the Third Reich? I'm sure there were many wonderful things about their grandparents and great-grandparents; perhaps the truth of participation in the "activities" of the times should be more "balanced." Every culture glorifies itself, eh?

"All I am saying is that I don't want children to have their culture trashed. You can teach history to young people without doing that. We certainly don't do it to other cultures and we shouldn't be doing it to our own."

You actually wrote that! :freak: AND YOU BELIEVE IT!!! WOW! :wow:

[Der Blaue Engel]

152. I'm not playing any kind of a game

Telling the truth is not "trashing our culture." This class experiment was no different than the ones teachers have done around racism, where all of the brown-eyed children are told that for one day, brown-eyed people are good, and blue-eyed people are bad. By all accounts, the children learned a very valuable lesson from that.

I wonder if you've given any thought to how Native American children feel being fed all of the bullshit that usually goes around in the name of "patriotism."

[Karenina]

156. One need only look at

the state of native peoples for the answer to that one. Uranium, anyone? The betrayal continues...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

121. What's my motivation?

I agree with the original post's premise....that the teacher is trying to do something unique and honest.

But we have a complaint from the right that it is "not positive". As far as I'm concerned, that's bullshit. If it's history, and it's the truth......then too bad. It is what it is.

Do I think slavery should be talked about? Absolutely. And it has correctly for the most part, at least where I went to school. But there were a few omissions. And one was I had no clue until I was in college that Europeans didn't just jump off a boat on the coast of Africa and start rounding up random African people. It wasn't until then I got the more complex truth, that which the poster creating the most discussion here is talking about....complexity.

When you start uncovering the truth, there should be no political motivation. I don't give a shit that some idiot form the Concerned Women of America doesn't think it's "positive" to not portray the Pilgrims as some sort of "liberators" who enlightened the "pagan" Native Americans. I also don't want to hear from some other special interest group if the truth brings out things that don't fit their shiny, happy frame of reference.

My only motivation is.......if some teacher used a similar exercise to teach his/her kids about slavery and happened to tack on a scenario where one of the students "sells-out" his classmates to the "outsider" buying them, would we defend that teacher against the backlash that would be sure to come, or would it be the usual pile-on of "Oh, he shouldn't bring that up, it's insensitive." or worse, "What's he trying to prove? He must be racist."

In my view, it's similar to prayer in school or religious displays on state property. We are either going to do it all or nothing at all. And people's sensitivity should have nothing to do with it, be they on the right or the left.

[Der Blaue Engel]

150. It sounds like we don't disagree then

Sorry I jumped to conclusions. It just looked like you were using a reverse psychology ploy to suggest that since all cultures do bad things, it's somehow wrong to acknowledge our own or teach our children about it.

Peace.

[zreosumgame]

130. you mean the ones Europeans paid bounties for?

and who encouraged peoples not at war to go kill other tribes just so they would have some 'merchandise' to carry here? Funny how you still only want part of history told and the other parts suppresed. your argument is similar to a husband hiring a hit-man and then claiming since he did not pull the trigger he is not responsible.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

132. *SIGH*

Please go back and show me where I said the truth about slavery and the Europeans part in it should be suppresed. Oh, wait......you can't.

Again....complexity. You should take your own words to heart.

[zreosumgame]

137. you selected facts you supposed to be inconvient to those who want the truth told

implied that you were more honest because you claimed to have researched 'many' claims of partial American Indian heritage, called those who have such claims as liars and then tried to set yourself up as more honest then every other poster on this thread. Now you are trying to play the victim card. LOL freeper-trolls are so funny :eyes:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

146. Where did I say I "researched" anything?

And just WHO was I calling a liar? lol.....The premise of THAT post was the racist attitude towards Native American history while trying to claim Native American ancestry as some sort of way to "impress" people at social gatherings. If you yourself have researched and have proof of your heritage, you should AGREE with me in taking offense at people who try to do that. Besides, I thought we were talking about slavery now.........

And of course, top it off by ad-homing me as a freeper, proving pretty much what my thesis in this thread is all about. lol.....you really are funny.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. Again, post #13.

Eh, slaverying and NA genocide apologists... not ones for original thinking.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

133. Again, you are proving to be as enlightened as Janice Shaw Crouse

You only want to teach what history fits your picture frame, and ad hom attacking those who don't swear to it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. LOL.

I'm for teaching history as it really happened.

And in this particular case, it's pretty much just the way the teacher is teaching it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

136. Excellent

And if you read my other posts you'd see that I agree with his teaching it that way.

I'll defend any teacher who gets it right(taking the age of the children into account, I don't think they need to see pictures of the concentration camps at age 7), even if they go to area that one side of the political spectrum or another is sensitive about.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Pictures of the concentration camps?

Where'd that come from?

Oh, and as for the holocaust. Shouldn't we also teach that the Jews killed people too?

:eyes:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

141. Of course, you ignored the main part of that post

I was only providing an example of one thing I feel "crosses the line" in teaching young children as a disclaimer to my larger point. Graphic pictures. They could be pictures of the concentration camps, JFK's autopsy, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre...whatever.

Sorry for the confusion. I should have known better as you seem incapable of having a frank discussion without finding something related to whatever your agenda is to harp on. It must give you a headache to have to work to be so glib all the time.

[Vorta]

166. How would you feel about simply reading the kids the first person accounts, without bias?

[libnnc]

19. Genocide is complex?

Wow. That's...CRAP!
No. Really. You have to stop. I'm breathless from laughing...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:




NOT. :nuke:

Edit to add...
You have been added to my Ignore list.

I've read enough of your posts to make up my mind about you.

Good luck.

[Odin2005]

29. Exactly, I don't see how the settlemment of the Americas is any different then...

The atrocities commited by the Romans against barbarian peoples they conquered. Native American's weren't the only victims of the expansion of a technologically and organizationally superior society in history. It needs to be seen in context of all world history.

[Vorta]

33. I think you are about to get lecture #3

It goes something like, "just because people were in the stone age doesn't mean they were primitive".

[Odin2005]

46. I never said that.

Whether a society is a primitive society or a civilization is based on how complexly organized the society is, not thier technological level. The Maya were a stone age people but they were a powerful civilization. The Celts were an iron age people but were a primitive society, not a civilization.

[WindRavenX]

34. absolutely

We have very US-centric history lesions here; it wasn't until college (!) that I was able to take any comparative world history course.

[Chulanowa]

75. We're not Rome

The massacre of the Iceni isn't a part of American history. We do not celebrate the absolute destruction of Carthage with a national holiday. We don't teach our kids that Augustus was a paragon of friendship and freedom while he was raping Egypt.

For years the discusion of the mayflower has been that a bunch of pilgrims, fed up with being persecuted for their religion, sought freedom in the new world, braving bad weather and worse boats, living noble yet hardscrabble lives under the good graces of Jesus. Were it not for the kind and helpful Native Americans, surely the brave, noble, and freedom-loving pilgrims would have died!

The actual story is thus.

A bunch of hate-filled religious fundamentalists got kicked out of England, and fled to Belgium to beg for money, even while pissing off the Belgians with their preaching and fanaticism. They scraped up some coins, bought the worst ship they could find and gave what was left to god as a tithe. They sailed over to the new world, which is something of a miracle given that not a damn one of them could drive a horse, much less a ship in the Atlantic. Once on the shore of the new world, these exiles set up a strict and frankly brutal theocracy, where death was a possible punishment for heresy. Much like the Jamestown expedition before them, the "pilgrims" sat on their British asses and expected prosperity to fall like rain from the heavens. When it didn't, they starved. They tried to steal from the local indians, but were horribly inept at it, so the natives took pity on them and taught them that no, food does not fall from the sky in Columbia. They were more likely to have eaten beaver and mashed acorns, rather than a big plump turky and mashed potatosand corn, and all that stuff. In fact the turkey was considered "not worth eating". Now a heron, that was cuisine the pilgrims could get into. After the exiles got established in America, they began the tradition of beliving that God himself had given them the land they squatted on, and began a systematic purge of the same people who had helped them out. Partially by disease, but yes, also by warfare and murder. There was no tolerance for heathenry in the Mayflower community.

These people were not heroes. They were wretched castoffs who were too stiff and strict for protestant Britain, if you can imagine that. They did what they want, how they wanted, and fuck all who got in their way.

Though, if this man really wanted to give his children the full-on native American experience, he would have written up contracts in Basque, explained their meanings in English without actually telling the details, only that it would give the teacher certain rights to certain areas of the classroom - when the student signs (threaten them if they don't want to), the teacher then takes over the desk of another student two rows down and tells them the first student gave it to the teacher, so now it's the teacher's. Then take the first student's lunch money, claiming he broke the contract. Repeat as often as necessary until the teacher owns all the property in the room and can afford to buy himself lunch at olive garden.

[Blue_Tires]

90. brilliant n/t

[Karenina]

164. YUP!!! Here's Robert Jensen's take...

http://www.alternet.org/story/44661

[Vorta]

110. Great! Now write one for the Indians

You don't even have to include anything after 1600. Trash them well and have some real fun with it.

[Chulanowa]

159. I wiuld, save for two problems

One, it's bad manners to talk bad about one's grandparents :)

Two, what do we have on the natives the pilgrims encountered, beyond what I've already described? They seem to have "disappeared" rather quickly, after all. All that's left are the biased and uninterested accounts of the settlers themselves.

I could go on about the Mississippeans, if you like, though they're really only relevant to the conversation if you want to drag DeSoto into the mess. Not nice people, those Cohokians.

[cosmicdot]

92. try to catch Terry Jones' 4-part documentary, Barbarian Lives

on the History International channel


In this series Terry Jones pieces together exciting new archaeological evidence to reveal the startling truth about the Barbarians. In the process the ex-Python discovers how the Roman propaganda machine was able to pull off the greatest con-trick in history and turn their enemies into monsters fit for children's stories.

http://www.historyinternational.com/global/listings/listings_weekly.jsp?NetwCode=HCI&timezone=3

http://www.historyinternational.com/global/listings/series_showcase.jsp?EGrpType=Series&Id=17430247&NetwCode=HCI\

http://www.historyinternational.com/

apparently, available on google video, too

# 1: The Primitive Celts.

In this four-part series Terry Jones pieces together exciting new archaeological evidence to reveal the startling truth about the Barbarians. In the process, the ex-Python discovers how the Roman propaganda machine was able to pull off the greatest con-trick in history and turn their enemies into monsters fit for children's stories. In the first program, Terry reveals the great secret the Romans never told us about the Celts. In 58 BC Julius Caesar invaded Celtic Gaul. He claimed it was to protect the Northern borders of the Empire from these volatile people. But Terry discovers that Caesar's account was a smokescreen for a more sinister truth. The Celtic world was built on vast deposits of gold and these "primitive people" were gold-miners par-excellence. The ambitious Caesar was broke and the rich, sophisticated Celts were there for the taking... by his own account over a million Celts were slaughtered in his campaign. Soon Rome was minting gold coins again.


Episode $2, The Savage Goths

In part two, ex-Python Terry Jones discovers that the so called "Sack of Rome" is in large measure the invention of Roman propagandists. Roman writers have left us with an image of the Barbarians of the North--the Germans, Dacians and Goths--as hairy primitives. It was an image reinforced by the wholesale massacre of a Roman army in Germany in 9AD, and sealed by the so-called "Sack of Rome" in 410. Terry reveals that far from being brutal savages, the Barbarians of the North were in fact much admired by Rome for their fighting prowess; they became crucial to the defense of the Roman Empire--and would eventually became as "Roman" as the Romans themselves.

Episode #3, The Brainy Barbarians

In this episode Terry Jones immerses himself in the world of the Barbarians of East--the Greeks and the Persians--and discovers that it was they, and not the Romans, who were the real brains of the ancient world. The story begins and ends with a strange lump of rusty metal discovered on the seabed in the Mediterranean in 1900. It turned out to be a two thousand year-old piece of highly complex engineering the like of which would not be seen for another 1500 years. What had happened to halt the progress of ancient know-how? From the great Parthian Empires of the East to their closer neighbors, the Greeks, the Roman world was surrounded by mathematical and scientific brilliance. Tragically, Terry discovers that all the Romans were interested in was conquest and money. In the single-minded expansion of their Empire the Romans buried scientific treasures and wonderfully enlightened societies that are only just coming to light.

Episode #4, The End of the World

Around 400AD two barbarian babies were born. One would grow up to become the fiercest barbarian of them all: Attila the Hun--the scourge of God. The other, Alaric, would become the leader of the greatest wreckers in history: The Vandals. In this series Terry Jones has discovered how the Barbarians have been the victims of the most astonishing smear campaign in history. In this final episode Terry finds out that the key to the success of that process is intimately wrapped up in the stories of the Huns and Vandals and their role in the fall of the Western Empire. Terry reveals that despite what he was taught, the Western Empire didn't entirely disappear. One of its institutions thrived: The Catholic Church. Through the centuries, Catholic scribes controlled the copying of ancient records. So Roman history became our history, and the ancestors of much of modern Europe and the Middle East became the Barbarians.

[zreosumgame]

148. there is a difference in results, and intent

In the case of the Roman expansions yes there was violence and slaves were captured. However small tho it was there was a chance of a slave 'earning' freedom and becoming an actual citizen and able to own property and such. In America until the 50's or so that was not possible at all, not really in that at any time the 'freed' slave was subject to re-capture and not counted as a real person. To me the difference was that 'negro' slaves were so dehumanized as to be classes as animals only, while the Roman slaves were at least potential 'people' in the eyes of their laws. Not a great difference, and it in no way (to me) excuses their actions, but it was the selectiveness of the targets in America that were the difference. And in large part that can be laid at the feet of Columbus. He was very succesful convincing isabella that the 'children of God' he 'discovered' should be ensaved ofr their own good. And he helped set the tone by raping torturing and murdering so many of them that he had to raid Africa to replace them.

[meganmonkey]

60. Modern sensibilities?

What do you mean by that?

Stealing shit and kicking people off their land was okay back then?

In a few hundred years, I guess people will say - Oh, back then destroying a nation like Iraq in the name of "Democracy" was okay, it is complex and we can't project our modern sensibilities on early 21st century people.

:shrug:

[ThomCat]

82. Why don't you enlighten us

as to what the truth really is? :P

[azndndude]

8. We the Indigenous People of this great land don't celebrate Thanksgiving

We honor this day as a National Day of Mourning for the millions of our ancestors that have died since the Pilgrims first landed on our shores. Damn Illegal aliens!

[proud patriot]

9. That's how they teach it in Berkeley Ca

:hi: It's a very thought provoking lesson .

[Vorta]

36. Well of course they do. That's why Berkeley is so special.

[proud patriot]

76. One of the many reasons

:patriot:

[H2O Man]

21. If only Pat Buchanan's wall

had been built earlier, we could have kept these Indian people out of the United States. Always complaining at Thanksgiving time -- why doesn't Bill O'Reilly address the attack on Thanksgiving?

[TahitiNut]

65. "Always complaining at Thanksgiving time"

:rofl: That is a perfect synopsis, imho. Why do they want to destroy Thanksgiving??

[H2O Man]

94. Thanksgiving is

a Christian holiday, and I am pretty sure that if we could get the likes of Mr. Buchanan or Wild Bill O'reilly to look into this funny business, we'd find that it's them there Marxists that are behind the attack on Our Values. And of course they try to indoctrinate the innocent children at schools -- where they should be safe. But no. Those beady-eyed teachers are exposing them to "ideas."

Again, had we built a fence along the Bering Strait, we could have avoided this mess.

[TahitiNut]

149. Well, let's suggest they change it to Whinegiving.

"The damned colonial winter is coming again and we still don't have enough fur coats!"
"Those damned savages have more food than they deserve!"
"Where the hell is the mail boat?"
"Who the hell elected him mayor?"
"Priscilla! My oatmeal is cold again!"

:rofl:

[Maddy McCall]

22. That's how I teach it in my college classes.

It's almost like deprogramming to teach COLLEGE students REAL nonmythologized history.

[PreacherCasey]

39. One of my favorite bumper stickers...

"In 1492, Native Americans discovered Columbus lost at sea"

[Viva_La_Revolution]

50. I love that!

far more true than what we were taught in school.

[Jcrowley]

51. It's just tourism

[WindRavenX]

53. my god! won't you think of the children!

:cry:

[Jcrowley]

58. American history

as taught in most schools is still pretty much a dishonest fairy tale. Sure they'll touch upon some of the "imperfections" of this nation but rarely will you find a teacher who will string it all together. If that were to be done the country would probably have a collective nervous breakdown which might not be a bad thing. If you haven't already I would suggest reading the book referred to above by James Loewen it is superb. Also read William Blum's "Killing Hope."

The children should be taught the truth.

Bartoleme de Las Casas, Brief Account of the Devastation of the Indies. (1542)


The Indies were discovered in the year one thousand four hundred and ninety-two. In the following year a great many Spaniards went there with the intention of settling the land. Thus, forty-nine years have passed since the first settlers penetrated the land, the first so claimed being the large and most happy isle called Hispaniola, which is six hundred leagues in circumference. Around it in all directions are many other islands, some very big, others very small, and all of them were, as we saw with our own eyes, densely populated with native peoples called Indians. This large island was perhaps the most densely populated place in the world. There must be close to two hundred leagues of land on this island, and the seacoast has been explored for more than ten thousand leagues, and each day more of it is being explored. And all the land so far discovered is a beehive of people; it is as though God had crowded into these lands the great majority of mankind.

And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. They are by nature the most humble, patient, and peaceable, holding no grudges, free from embroilments, neither excitable nor quarrelsome. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world. And because they are so weak and complaisant, they are less able to endure heavy labor and soon die of no matter what malady. The sons of nobles among us, brought up in the enjoyments of life's refinements, are no more delicate than are these Indians, even those among them who are of the lowest rank of laborers. They are also poor people, for they not only possess little but have no desire to possess worldly goods. For this reason they are not arrogant, embittered, or greedy. Their repasts are such that the food of the holy fathers in the desert can scarcely be more parsimonious, scanty, and poor. As to their dress, they are generally naked, with only their pudenda covered somewhat. And when they cover their shoulders it is with a square cloth no more than two varas in size. They have no beds, but sleep on a kind of matting or else in a kind of suspended net called bamacas. They are very clean in their persons, with alert, intelligent minds, docile and open to doctrine, very apt to receive our holy Catholic faith, to be endowed with virtuous customs, and to behave in a godly fashion. And once they begin to hear the tidings of the Faith, they are so insistent on knowing more and on taking the sacraments of the Church and on observing the divine cult that, truly, the missionaries who are here need to be endowed by God with great patience in order to cope with such eagerness. Some of the secular Spaniards who have been here for many years say that the goodness of the Indians is undeniable and that if this gifted people could be brought to know the one true God they would be the most fortunate people in the world.

Yet into this sheepfold, into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during tla! past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons.

The island of Cuba is nearly as long as the distance between Valladolid and Rome; it is now almost completely depopulated. San Juan and Jamaica are two of the largest, most productive and attractive islands; both are now deserted and devastated. On the northern side of Cuba and Hispaniola he the neighboring Lucayos comprising more than sixty islands including those called Gigantes, beside numerous other islands, some small some large. The least felicitous of them were more fertile and beautiful than the gardens of the King of Seville. They have the healthiest lands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to the Island of Hispaniola to be sold as slaves. When the Spaniards saw that some of these had escaped, they sent a ship to find them, and it voyaged for three years among the islands searching for those who had escaped being slaughtered , for a good Christian had helped them escape, taking pity on them and had won them over to Christ; of these there were eleven persons and these I saw.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/02-las.html

[WindRavenX]

59. preaching to the chior friend

:)

[libnnc]

68. you beat me to it....

quick draw...;-)

[malaise]

55. Lovely history lesson

K & R

[Dinger]

61. From A Teacher: Good Job!!!!!!

That sounds like a great idea! I teach in a school district that has almost 50% Native American students, mostly Stockbridge-Munsee Band of Mohican Indians, but also Oneida and Menominee, and some Chippewa. I teach 3rd grade too. This sounds like a heck of a teacher to me!

[Dinger]

64. One More Thing - Howard Zinn: A People's History Of The United States. . .

How I wish could do an elementary school version of that book!

[Zhade]

81. Oh, Zinn - with all his facts!

Some people here don't like those.

[lateo]

62. This teacher rocks!

[libnnc]

67. For those of us in this thread who want to know more...

Here's a translation of Bartolome de la Casas' account of the treatment of natives in the West Indies. I think it's from UVA.

http://www.uvawise.edu/history/wciv1/casas.html

Bartolome de la Casas was a Spanish 16th century missionary who became appalled at what his church and countrymen were doing to native peoples in the new world. Much of what we know today about the results of Europeans' early encounters with natives come directly from his writings.

<snip>
At a conservative estimate, the despotic and diabolical behaviour of the Christians has, over the last forty years, led to the unjust and totally unwarranted deaths of more than twelve million souls, women and children among them, and there are grounds for believing my own estimate of more than fifteen million to be nearer the mark.

There are two main ways in which those who have travelled to this part of the world pretending to be Christians have uprooted these pitiful peoples and wiped them from the face of the earth. First, they have waged war on them: unjust, cruel, bloody and tyrannical war. Second, they have murdered anyone and everyone who has shown the slightest sign of resistance, or even of wishing to escape the torment to which they have subjected him. This latter policy has been instrumental in suppressing the native leaders, and, indeed, given that the Spaniards normally spare only women and children, it has led to the annihilation of all adult males, whom they habitually subject to the harshest and most iniquitous and brutal slavery that man has ever devised for his fellow-men, treating them, in fact, worse than animals. All the many and infinitely varied ways that have been devised for oppressing these peoples can be seen to flow from one or other of these two diabolical and tyrannical policies. <snip>

For those of us who are interested in knowing what happened in our past so that we may never repeat it.

http://www.uvawise.edu/history/wciv1/casas.html

[mzmolly]

70. As a homeschooler, I teach all sides too.

One of the reasons I'm glad I homeschool. ;)

Thankfully, they do have a number of books for children at the local library that do a good job of articulating the fact that history has many view points.

For example, we are learing about the "Trail of Tears" along with stories of the westward expansion this month.

In all honesty, I am surprised this teacher is the exception? Good for him!

[LWolf]

71. We're supposed to teach lies?

No. We're supposed to present the truth. Neutrally, with no value added one way or the other.

If we can't teach the truth, why should we teach at all?

Having taught 3rd grade in CA for 8 years, I'm pretty familiar with the curriculum. There is nothing in 3rd grade curriculum that directly refers to European colonization of the Americas. There is this:

<snip>

Our Nation’s History: Meeting People, Ordinary and Extraordinary, Through Biography, Story, Folktale, and Legend
To understand the common memories that create a sense of community and continuity among people, children should learn about the classic legends, folktales, tall tales, and hero stories of their community and nation. Stories such as Ingri and Edgar D’Aulaire’s Christopher Columbus, Joan Sandin’s The Long Road to a New Land, Thomas P. Lewis’s Clipper Ship, Barbara Brenner’s Wagon Wheels, Elizabeth Shub’s The White Stallion, F. N. Monjo’s The Drinking Gourd, and Barbara Cohne’s Molly’s Pilgrim help students to appreciate those who dared to move into unknown regions. Children should listen to biographies of the nation’s heroes and of those who took the risk of new and controversial ideas and opened new opportunities for many. Such stories convey to the children valuable insights into the history of their nation and its people; they also help children to understand today’s great movement of immigrants into California as a part of the continuing history of their nation.
Through stories and the celebration of national holidays, children should learn the meaning of the nation’s holidays and the symbols that provide continuity and a sense of community across time; for example, the flag, the eagle, Uncle Sam, and the Statue of Liberty. They should learn the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag and the national songs that express American ideals, such as “America the Beautiful,” the “Star Spangled Banner,” and “America.”

This part of the framework goes with this standard:

Standard 3.4.3.
Know the histories of important local and national landmarks,
symbols, and essential documents that create a sense of community
among citizens and exemplify cherished ideals.

Perhaps truth interferes with those "cherished ideals?"

The direct reference to colonization happens in 5th grade:

<snip>

The Land and People Before Columbus
In this unit students examine major pre-Columbian settlements: the cliff dwellers and pueblo people of the desert Southwest; the American Indians of the Pacific Northwest; the nomadic tribes of the Great Plains; and the woodland peoples east of the Mississippi. Students should learn how these people adjusted to their natural environment; developed an economy and system of government; and expressed their culture in art, music, and dance. Students should be introduced to the rich mythology and literature of American Indian cultures............

Settling the Colonies
A brief survey should be made of French, Portuguese, and Spanish colonization in the New World. Major emphasis should then be placed on the English colonies, where the political values and institutions of the new nation were shaped........

Life in the new land was hard, and at first the Indians aided the settlers. In time the Pilgrim colonies became well established despite bloody conflicts with the indigenous people. Students should learn about the political, religious, economic, and social life of the colonies. They should be helped to envision the simple homes and the rigors of each day. They should analyze the work of men, women, and children and see how butter was churned, cloth was dyed, and soap and candles were made; they should see the hornbooks from which children learned their ABCs. By dramatizing a day in a colonial school, students will gain an understanding of the children’s lives in this period, the way they learned, and disciplinary practices of that time....

Settling the Trans-Appalachian West
Biographies of Daniel Boone will introduce children to English forays into the French territory west of the Appalachian Mountains and to the French and Indian War, in which Boone served. Students should learn about the importance of the war, in shattering French power in North America. The English attempt to reserve the land west of the Appalachians for the inland Indian nations failed. Students should follow the exploits of pathfinders such as Daniel Boone and read about the settlers who followed his trail over the Cumberland Gap into Kentucky. They should consider the viewpoint of the American Indians who occupied these same lands and read about the conflicts between the Indians and Kentucky settlers that followed the outbreak of the Revolutionary War. This frontier period is rich in biographies, tall tales, legends, songs, and handicrafts that help to make this period vivid for students.

The standard reads like this

Standard 5.3.
Students describe the cooperation and conflict that existed among the American Indians and between the Indian nations and the new settlers.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/pn/fd/documents/hist-social-sci-frame.pdf

The frameworks and standards make it crystal clear that we are supposed to be fostering patriotism; it doesn't say we are supposed to lie about our history in order to do so.

[Quantess]

77. But.....I thought the European settlers were liberators!

They just wanted to bring freedom to the new continent. Why are you guys so anti-American?

[The Backlash Cometh]

78. Yeah, you need to get those kids to learn caring and sharing,

so that they can grow up and be ripe for the pickin from the greediest of Americans.

[LynnTheDem]

85. Yes, LIE to the kids. Because...

"They can learn about the truths when they grow up."

Good grief. No wonder so many Americans are so incredibly deeply ignorant.

[BoneDaddy]

99. It isn't about lying

it is about what is appropriate with children. Children do not have the level of abstraction adults have and we need to decide what is appropriate. We are not 100% honest with children about life because they are not prepared to deal with it. At this point in their lives, children need to feel safe and we introduce this stuff as they age.

Life is difficult and in many ways ugly. The loss of innocence with children will occur naturally. I don't think that forcing them to witness the horrors of life and our history at such a young age is the teachers job in elementary school.

How far do we take this? If the argument is that children need to know the "darkside" of America, I agree but that should be done over time when they are a bit older and can understand more.

For right now, let them understand the nature of giving and loving one another and what they can give thanks for in their life. If you want to be historically correct, then put the onus on the native Americans who pretty much saved the pilgrams' lives with their generosity and as they grow up introduce the uglier side of the founding of our country.

[we can do it]

112. Third Graders? Not Old Enough To Understand That Taking Something

..that's not their's is wrong? No wonder we keep falling behind other countries. OK, so when would be a good time to stop lying to them? And how much classroom time should be devoted to un-telling of lies?

How about the parents teach the kids about caring and loving and teachers teach facts?

[BoneDaddy]

117. I am asking for balance

There is often a push, I see, to lay out the whole "truth" about life to children. I am not saying that we withold it, but we make it appropriate.

For instance, let us talk about death. We talk about death differently to a 5 year old who lost his grandmother than we do to a 17 year old.

The truth and reality of the world should be approached with the same caution. I am not saying that we lie, I am saying we need to take a balanced approach on how to do it.

We, meaning liberals, often take a "Dances with Wolves" approach to the topic of native Americans. That is naive. Sure there were plenty of wonderful, beautiful things about Native Americans but they were not without their faults. They could be as barbaric as the Europeans, depending upon the tribe.

This white guilt fantasy that natives walked with love and compassion all the time is simply not true.

[Karenina]

122. Should elementary school children in Germany

be exposed to the history of the Third Reich? I'm sure there were many wonderful things about their grandparents and great-grandparents; perhaps the truth of participation in the "activities" of the times should be more "balanced." After all, there certainly were "some bad Jews."

[BoneDaddy]

123. Yes

they should, but do they need to know the details of genital mutilation, ovens and other horrors at age 8? I don't think so.

Certainly, we educate our children but we do it appropriately and not to assuage our collective guilt over what our forefathers did in the founding of our country. My God, history is full of this conquering, decimation and destruction of people and in time we educate them on it.

All I am asking for is that we use our heads in decided what is appropriate for young children to know at a young age.

[Karenina]

153. Germans doing "bad things"

is OK for a German 8 year-old. Settlers doing "bad things" to indigenous people is NOT OK for an American 8 year-old. Rather s/he should participate in a yearly celebration of an increasingly commercialized myth that can only be accurately described as bricks of bullshit held together by an ever-so-thin mortar of half-truth!!! Hmmmm... Lemme ponder this some more.

If 19 year-olds were educated to the true role of the MIC in global politics over the last century would there be so many DEAD ONES today... Hmmmm...

[BoneDaddy]

154. So what age

do you then teach kids about the horrors of life? For me it is usually around the age of reason and abstraction which is typically middle school. Sure kids have a sense of right and wrong but the higher faculties don't develop until a bit older. One of the things necessary to give children is a sense of safety and security, they will lose their innocence soon enough.

I am not saying that you have to adhere to the "fantastical" approach we have towards Thanksgiving, but if you are anything like my family, it is a holiday that celebrates what we are grateful for and we spend time together in a way that is very meaningful. I am aware of the farce that is the story it is built on, but for me and many other people it is a very happy and pleasant celebration.

I certainly think the truth of what was very wrong about the European settlers should most definately be discussed and encouraged, I am only lobbying for the appropriate timing of that and elementary school is too young...they don't get it like we get it.

All they saw was an adult being mean and I don't think that is a good thing to lead children with, regardless of the "lesson" you want them to learn.

[Karenina]

155. I do agree with you in substance

(although I think you underestimate 8 year-olds. By then MOST have them have busted Santa and the Tooth Fairy. ;-) ) What I am somewhat awkwardly trying to get at is the atmosphere of LIES in which we, as Americans, are born and bred. And THAT is the difference.

A German child's first exposure to "that sordid period" comes through family members, community, countless documentaries on the tube and the physical and psychic remnants of war, of which there are MANY. It is first addressed in school at about the 13 year-old level. I quite dislike how German history is taught here as it tends to focus on "those years" as the be-all and end-all and all-you-need-to-know. When I first arrived, I was SHOCKED at how little my native friends knew about ANY OTHER ASPECT of the shifting tribes that have inhabited these lands for centuries.

Bringing in the harvest and celebrating is a VERY OLD tradition pre-dating America's errraa... discovery. It's the wallpapering of the noble, good and upright ancestors poster everywhere that could certainly use some scrutiny. The viewpoints of indigenous peoples vis-a-vis this PR campaign have only in recent years begun to be heard.

If 19 year-old Americans were truly educated about the role of the military in conflicts around the globe in the last 150 years, how many more of them would be ALIVE today?

[BoneDaddy]

158. in truth

you and I don't disagree on much at all... When do we, as adults dispell the comfortable illusion of childhood? Well I guess that is the area of the parents, I would think. As a parent of two young boys, that is important to me, and not an agenda decided upon by anyone else, although I know in time, things will change.

Look, I agree with the teacher, that has never been my point. My problem is with the methodology, and I think we can all agree, on some level, that there is a level of what is appropriate for kids that age.

I don't underestimate 8 year olds at all.... I have worked in this field for almost 20 years and I am not surprised by the wisdom that comes from children. In fact, I revel in my own two sons growing experiences. I think 8 year olds certainly hold alot of wisdom, but they are also, only 8 years old.

I don't think, nor have I EVER said that there needs to be any hardcore discipline with regards to this teacher. I support his pov. I just dont think his point was appropriate to the level of children he was dealing with. Give them another 2-3 years, then I think he might be on to something.

[Quantess]

143. This is 3rd grade, not kindergarten.

There is a huge difference in intellectual capacity beteen a 3rd grader and a kindergartner. Your approach to the subject sounds appropriate for kindergarten to maybe 1st grade.

(I have taught elementary school children, and I am familiar with subject matter different ages are capable of handling.)

[flying_monkeys]

87. This reminds me of "A Class Divided"

Sometimes, the best way to teach a Life lesson is to make it real.... Different lesson, but same real life application....


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

[Bhaisahab]

88. I read Howard Zinn's "Peoples History..."

recently, and i felt enraged at the account of how mercilessly native americans were exterminated by white america. the destruction of indigenous civilizations in North and South America by europeans must surely rank as the BIGGEST and MOST BRUTAL genocide in history.

remember columbus' quote - "They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

i don't consider myself an asshole, but whenever i read accounts of how europeans destroyed indigenous cultures in the Americas, i struggle to contain the racist abuse that wells up inside me.

on the other hand, there are people like this teacher. anybody who has problems with his method of communicating the brutality of colonization in the Americas has no other god save self-aggrandizement.

[Kelly Rupert]

109. "People's History" is one of the best books I've ever read.

Guns, Germs, and Steel is probably my favorite history book of all time, but People's History of the (United States/Constitution/20th Century) is close.

[BoneDaddy]

96. Come on now

These are kids. I see both sides. The "spirit" of thanksgiving is certainly one of giving and that is not a bad thing to teach kids. TRue, soon they will see the darkside of life and is it necessary to break their innocence so soon.
On the other hand we also don't need to sugarcoat it and be a bit more realistic.

This might be fine for a high school environment, but one needs to be appropriate with your audience.

Is the next step outing Santa Claus as a capitalistic scumbag?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

126. Actually, the idea of NOT telling them the truth.......

....and going with the old Thanksgiving story is sort of akin to just going ahead and teaching them that Santa does exist and will be coming down their chimney Christmas Eve with a bag of toys and that the Easter Bunny will do the same next March/April.

There is nothing wrong with explaining to kids that while the story surrounding Thanksgiving is not entirely pleasant, out of it has grown something good.

[Vorta]

157. OK let's tell them the truth.

And when we do, many of the folks here defending this teacher will explode.

[Kelly Rupert]

107. Good for him. This guy is awesome.

[noonwitch]

120. That's not what the Pilgrims were about

The Pilgrims just wanted a place where they could live and practice their own religion in peace. They befriended the local indians when they came here.

It was other groups of settlers who came to take over.

[donsu]

134. I don't celebrate thanksgiving - I side with the Indians

good teacher - got the kids thinking

[Norquist Nemesis]

139. Concerned Women for America need to go bake cookies

and have tea parties, IMO. It's dangerous and disingenuous to keep "the truth" from children until they "grow up".

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. Holocaust denial: it's not just for Nazis anymore.

This thread makes me want to hit something. :argh:

[Binka]

160. Indeed I Could Name Some Of Those Somethings

It would appear we have some "pilgrim" interlopers joining us here in the debate.

They smell stinky!

[porphyrian]

151. So, should we be positive about things that aren't or should we just lie about them, Janice? - n/t

[Vidar]

163. Kudos to the teacher, though I sincerely hope he has tenure & a good

attorney, for his own sake.