And now you know how Ralph Nader felt....

[kentuck]

...even though he was about 10 years ahead of you. He knew. But everybdoy cursed him and threw rocks at him. He may have been wrong but at least you know how he felt. You know. It may not be forgivable but at least, it's understandable.

[MercutioATC]

1. I beg to differ. Nader was a self-centered egomaniac.

He let his sense of self-importance overshadow his priciples. He's a complete ass in my book.

[Armstead]

2. It was understandable in 2000 -- Even more now

We need to have a democratic Democratic Party once again. That means a party that actually standsd for mainstream liberalism, which is all Nader is in terms of his positions.

[cry baby]

3. I understood then...and I don't forgive him.

How different the world would be if he had bowed out...OMG, I think I'm even madder at him today than ever.

[bluestateguy]

4. Don't even go there

If he had kept his traps shut, sat down and shut the hell up in 2000, Al Gore would be the one appointing Supreme Court justices today. OK, Gore ran a crappy campaign. Fine. But Nader allowed the election to be made close enough to steal.

I very truly question Nader's motives too. He has been very silent himself concerning this Scalito nomination, the bankruptcy bill and the even the Iraq War (which he only protested in the 2004 campaign). Nor has he spoken up against ANWR drilling, Social Security "reform" (which DEMOCRATS stopped) or Abramoff-gate.

Then again what does he care. I'm sure he, Barbara Ehrenreich and Bonnie Raitt are enjoying their taxcuts.

Fucking limousine liberals.

[Sydnie]

5. Nader did more to divide the dem party than anything else

I had great respect for nader when he was doing his consumer thing. I lost all respect when he derailed my party. Yes, derailed. He knew just what he was doing.

I will give him credit for doing it well.

Perot is jealous!

[Itchinjim]

6. We will be stuck with Alito partially because of Nader.

I still curse him. Screw him.

[leftstreet]

20. But by this reasoning, Ross Perot "stuck us" with Ginsberg & Breyer

:shrug:

[The2ndWheel]

24. Don't do that

You can't bring up a 3rd party when it helps Democrats. That's not fair.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. True. It's in the rules.. Section 4, paragraph 37a

[pberq]

35. Ha! Ha! - Thanks - this thread needed that humor

[LoZoccolo]

36. Good. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Nader was always right in that both parties...

are corrupt; part and parcel of a system predicated on organized, legalized bribery.

He was mistaken in saying that there was "no difference" between the hard right totalitarians that were and are in charge of the Republican party and the Democratic leadership of the Clinton, Gore, Kerry variety.

This must be acknowledged: had Nader not run that asinine third party campaign against Gore in '00, we ( i.e. the world) would not be in the predicament we are in now.

[pberq]

33. Really? How was it that Gore couldn't even win

Tennessee, his home state? Are you going blame that on Ralph too?

If the Al Gore of 2006 (in his great speech recently) had been running in 2000, he would have won.

Instead we had a DLC-brainwashed wuss of a candidate.

His DLC Repub-Lite platform was a prescription for failure.

[Uncle Joe]

40. I blame it on the continuous two year War against Gore,

by the corpwhorate owned MSM. They ignored, obfuscated or lied about what Al said and did. Nader would have been the equivalent of a pimple on an elephant's ass if our sorry excuse for journalism had come anywhere close to doing a credible job, instead of selling the American People down the river. They made Al out to be the liar when he told the truth, Bush would bring honor and integrity back to the White House. This is the frame, the 2000 election was cast in, and anyone thinking the Lewinsky scandal helped Al in any moderate to conservative state much less Tennessee, I have ocean front property for sale here in Nashville.

Al Gore has not changed, he still cares about the people first as he always has. The major difference between now and 2000 is that Bush's corruption and incompetence is to big for the media whores to hide from the American People, although some of them certainly still try and the growing power of the internet is informing more Americans as to he kind of man Al Gore is. The upshot is that a major fraud was hoisted on the American People in 2000 and Tennessee fell for it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

8. Horse balls. Nader gave us Bush to begin with

He also argued that there was no difference between Kerry and Bush - the events of today should be sufficient egg for Ralph's face for that ludicrous statement.

Nader could give less than a shit about America; he's an egomaniac trying to reclaim his glory days as a progressive icon, and is helping dismantle America in the process.

[inthebrain]

10. Bush stole the election

and Democrats failed to stick up for the REAL victims in that election. If their was no Nader revolution I have a hard time thinking there would have been a Boxer revolution 2004.

Given the findings of the GAO report it is quite obvious that Bush stole that election as well. I was dissapointed in the senators that voted to confirm that vote as well. Bush sould have been stopped in 2000 and CERTAINLY should have been removed after the 2004 election!!!!!

Give Gore some credit. He won the 2000 election. Nader voters that year are more outspoken on that front that Gore voters are. It's a shame!!!!!

I dont blame the democrats who are upset over it. In a sense we are fighting a two fron battle with the media and the corporations that uphold them. It's hard to determine who is really trying to bullshit you from who is offering constructive critisism.

Yet, we must not take our eyes off of the elephant in the room. Gore won that election!!!! They lost in not standing up for their constituents which were robbed of their vote by the supreme court (Bush was represented by Scalia's son. Now attack on Scalia for not recusing himself)and a racist Republican party.

Naders choice to run that year has had a longtime positive effect. It has caused Gore to speak from his heart and embrace candidates of principle.

[Armstead]

9. Nader was just a symptom -- Focus on the disease instead

I don't condone Nader's run, but Democrats have to see what Nader was just a symptom of more systemic problems.

If the world were as it should be, Nader would have been totally comnfortable as a Democrat and being able to stick to his principles.Nader is not some wild-eyed radical. And if he were merely an egom,aniac, he could have played the centrist game, stuck to his safe advocacy, and not rocked any boats.

But too many sell-outs by the Democratic Party in the 90's set the stage for both Nader and Bush.

[jonnyblitz]

15. exactly. people voted for Nader for a reason. nt

[Kahuna]

25. Yeah. Because that eight years of peace and prosperity under Clinton..

was just too much too stand for and it had to be STOPPED! :eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

29. oh that tired old peace and prosperity cliche about Clinton...

where would i begin...oh nevermind...

[freefall]

31. No. Because Clinton in addition to his personal

problems caved to corporate interests especially in relation to environmental issues, not to mention NAFTA, again and again. That's why I voted for Nader and I don't regret it. I was careful to make sure that my vote would not take the electoral college votes for my state at the time, Massachusetts, away from the Democrats because even with all their problems I still believed they were better than the Republicans. However, the differences between Reps and Dems have decreased in the ensuing years not increased. The message I hoped my vote would send to the Democrats has been ignored. In 2004 I donated 6% of my income to progressive Democratic candidates and I will continue to direct donations to progressives of any party but until the party embraces progressive values the party itself will not get a penny from me nor can they count on my vote.

Until we get corporate money out of politics and have publicly funded campaigns we cannot expect much in the way of support for the greater good from our elected government.

[Sterling]

43. Amen

ditto

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I agree. I'm no fan of Nader

but in making him the focal point of what went wrong in 2000, I think we miss the bigger picture of what the real problems are in the Democratic party.

Anyway, If Nader is to blame for Bush, who do we blame for the Dems being a minority in both houses of Congress?

[sandnsea]

11. That right wing spin was brainwashing America?

Because that is all that has happened and Nader helped.

[skipos]

12. Nader felt that Bush = Gore. Hopefully we know how WRONG Nader was now

that we have war in Iraq, Alito on the bench, etc. This never happened if Gore was in office.

[Toots]

34. Nader never once said that

Nader said "There is hardly any difference between the Parties" He has been proved correct at every turn of events...

[DELUSIONAL]

13. I doubt I would even know or care how Nader felt

he's a jerk -- and always has been a jerk.

He's a self centered jerk at that.

[Crunchy Frog]

14. I know how I felt when I voted for him in 2000.

If I had it to do over again, I would vote differently, even though my vote would not have made a difference, but I voted for him because I didn't see anybody representing me or my values in the Dem party. I felt then the same way many are feeling today. I will renounce my vote, but I will not renounce the feelings and the circumstances that motivated that vote.

I agree that Nader is a jerk but I don't see that as the salient issue. The failure of the Democratic party to articulate and fight for a coherent vision, and their failure to understand what they are truly up against in the current Republican party was my issue in that election, and is still the biggest issue afflicting this party. I believe that Al Gore genuinely "gets it" now, and I would have no problem supporting him if he got the nomination in '08, but did not at all give me the impression that he got it back in 2000.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Ralph was right about the one party system.

I didn't vote for him in 2000 or 2004, but I should have.

[LittleClarkie]

18. You mean he too had lost all respect for himself?

That's sad.

But I do not agree that Kerry and Bush are the same, even more now.

[JI7]

19. what the fuck ? Gore would have appointed Alito ?

Kerry would have appointed Alito ?

because that's pretty much what Nader was saying.

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. Nader was wrong. He went straight for the presidency without earning

his bones. He should have gone to the House first, and worked his way up.

[leftstreet]

22. Perot. Nader. They spoke to the 3rd party desires of the people.

Get over it Dems.
Learn from it instead.

http://www.fairvote.org/irv/end_majority_rule.htm

Polls reveal a steadily rising growth in independent voters and support for creation of a third party. A Gallup poll in August 1995 showed that 62% of Americans favored "formation of a third political party that would run candidates for President, Congress and state offices against the Republican and Democratic candidates." The support for such a third party increased steadily the younger the voting age group, with 18-29-year-olds favoring formation of a third party by a lopsided 72%-18% margin. Gallup also found that the proportion of voters calling themselves independents had doubled since 1940 to its current 39%.

[Kahuna]

23. Oh please. Gimme a break. Ralph caused the mess that a bunch

of you are now praising him for. That's just whacked.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

27. not impressed with nader. saw lack of integrity in him in 2004

and i dont agree with what nader says, they are all alike. makes no sense to me at all

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

30. If Nader had kept his goddamn worthless ass out of the race.

We wouldn't be looking at the current fucked-beyond-belief situation. Thank you, Ralph Nader.

[Toots]

32. He spoke the truth, "There is hardly any difference between the Parties"

He has been proved correct at every turn of events but people here are like ostriches...What have the Democrats not capitulated on?

[freefall]

37. I'll think of something the Dems haven't capitulated on.

I'm sure of it. Uh.. I'm thinking. Ummmmmmmmmmmm. Ok I give up.

[LittleClarkie]

44. Kerry is just like Bush?

Bush wanted the fillibuster?

[Generator]

38. I've known he was right since the Clinton years

Clinton was never a man to stand in the way of the average American getting the shaft if it would hurt him in any way.

BUT I detested Ralphie boy during 2004-it was narcisstic and all about him. He wasn't fighting with us against the biggest fight of our lives.

Little did I know we would lose that and then ONE last thing we always voted for Dems for was to protect the supreme court. That was it. Oh and yeah-protect the constitition, our liberties and be-oh yeah an opposition party.

Well that dream is over. It's not about voting third party, people. I don't give a shit about the green party. It's about you honestly looking me in the eye and telling me it matters if I vote at all. THEY SOLD US OUT. Without a real fight. And my disgust at the apologists and "we reallly won" because we actually got a few of them to do their fucking job and act like Democrats knows no bounds.

[Strong Atheist]

39. .

:popcorn: anyone?

[applegrove]

41. Nader lied. Dems do not govern like the GOP has. They would not

have.

[Skidmore]

42. Crap! Because you feel or believe something doesn't give the

right to lead the world into a third global war, destroy the rights of your compatriots, and make the nation less safe on all levels domestically.

Ralph Nader blew his chance to make a real difference. Got news for you, kentuck. I still curse him and will lob verbal stones at him till the day I die. It is NOT understandable.

[txaslftist]

45. Ralphie is a dingbell.

His proposal to get us out of Iraq was an urgent message to have liberal churches ring their bells for the dead soldiers.

People would hear the bell and rise up to resist the war.

That's what a realist he was.

Dingbell.