A penny, somewhere, just dropped

[canetoad]

Following the pro/con impeachment threads, I have been very much of the mind that politically, the Dems would not be well served by rushing to impeach. Note, I say 'politically'.

Thanks to a random comment by Golden Raisin I would like to bring up another point of view. Is it not, to some degree, the mark of sucess for a president to survive two terms? History seems to gloss over what an utterly incompetent bastard that president may been, as long as he served out his two terms.

Maybe I was wrong in thinking there are better things to do than go after GW, and the most telling, degrading humiliation turns out to be that neither Bush 41 or 43 ended up serving two terms.

Your thoughts?

[Beam Me Up]

1. No doubt in my mind.

The most compelling thing to do is go after these ass hats. Investigate, impeach, try, convict, put their asses in prison. It will be the right thing to do, politically, too.

[canetoad]

3. I agree, they deserve

to be pissed on from a great height. My concern was the 08's. Would the Dem's wear out the goodwill they had garnered this year by appearing vindictive and vengeful.

Now I'm looking further down the track, to how history will judge the cohort. Look at Reagan (the presidents brain is missing). The man was a bufoon, but he served 2 terms and becomes an historical figure.

[Beam Me Up]

4. I really am sick of hearing about what is "politically advantageous."

As far as I'm concerned what we are dealing with here is nothing less than mass murder, treason and war crimes. I'm totally serious. So, what is more "politically advantageous" for our country, that people in positions of power should be allowed to get away with treason and murder or that the laws they swore to serve and protect should be upheld?

[canetoad]

6. Once more, I agree

but that ain't gonna stop it from happening.

Beamer, we are on the same side; sick at heart of the corruption and self promotion/interest of those in power, and I mean here in Oz as well as the US. I keep thinking of the political pendulum, how it swings slowly, how you need a big, big swing to get the years in power to do anything effective in a country.

[driver8]

7. That's how I feel. All this tip towing around, afraid to offend the Rethuglicans

if we hold these fuckers responsible.

They broke the law, they lied us into war, they raped the treasury, and thousands and thousands of innocent people have died.

I feel they deserve to be punished; impeachment is letting them off easy.

They should be tried for crimes and sentenced to spend the rest of their days in jail.

[CrispyQ]

12. Not pursuing impeachment puts these criminals ABOVE THE LAW.

I am so, so, so, disappointed in Feingold.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2794846

snip...

One thing Feingold expressed no enthusiasm for is impeaching President Bush.

“I don’t support impeachment, and I don’t support impeachment hearings, even though I think the president has probably committed an impeachable offense,” Feingold said in response to a question from Al Schulz of La Crosse.

“We are not required to impeach the president simply because he’s committed an impeachable offense, which I think he did with the illegal wiretapping. We have to decide whether it’s in the best interest of the country to go through that process.”

===

If I get caught breaking any law, I am going to use this as a defense -- "Your honor, we have to decide whether it’s in the best interest of the country to go through that process," & then present evidence to the contraray.

Holy fucking shit!!

You cannot play nice & hold accountable at the same time!!

[Beam Me Up]

13. Yeah, like why do we bother having laws if tyrants can avoid them?

I've decided we're not living in a Democracy at all. What this is is a THUGocracy: Criminal culture to the core. Powerful people, very wealthy and powerful people, can get away with anything -- including treason, murder and war crimes. In doing so, they make of themselves a criminal class.

It is clear as day: The law applies to people like you and I, but not to them. Now, if that is in fact the case, then what does that tell us about our relationship to government? And what do our founding documents tell us are our responsibility in relation to such situations?

[CrispyQ]

21. They said,

"...when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

Most Americans have traded in their citizenship for cheap goods & mindless entertainment. They'll wake up one day, but it may be too late.

[Beam Me Up]

22. Exactly. And if the Democrats, who now have the option, don't enforce the

laws we have, then what good are they to US?

[TheDebbieDee]

5. Reagan: It's gotten so bad that the freepers want

to take FDR off the dime and put RR on it instead!

[mike_c]

2. long after the world has outgrown its loathing for Nixon...

...history will remember him as the only president to exit the white house one step ahead of sure impeachment, and likely prosecution for obstruction of justice. The same is true of 43-- if he serves out his term, he will eventually fade into distant memory, and then be remembered primarily for the "notable" things that occurred during his term. Impeaching the bastard would go a long way toward establishing the legacy he deserves.

[canetoad]

8. and the legacy that the Bush family deserves

as they try to emulate the Kennedys and install themselves as a political dynasty.

[MethuenProgressive]

9. IMPEACH THE M*THER F*CKER ALREADY

http://www.itmfa.com/

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. LOL

I have one of those buttons.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. Impeachment is not a political option, its a constitutional imperative

[Orsino]

15. Unfortunately, it's also a political option.

Thanks to the neocons' having cheapened it so.

With only a few subpoenas, Conyers could show ample evidence for impeachment (for almost anyone still in denial). It might be better for the nation, however, were they already to have passed legislation to prevent vanity wars, predatory lending and further rampant outsourcing.

Impeachment is a moral imperative, as far as I'm concerned, but if the Dem majority accomplishes nothing else, they will merely be perpetuating it as an every-six-years tradition. The Democratic Party can demonstrate moral authority in many ways, any of which would lend weight to the impeachment process.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. A little more serious than a BJ this time, IMHO, making impeachment less "optional"

[Orsino]

20. Hell, yeah.

Imperative as all get-out. If it's the first thing a Dem Congress does, though, it will be more easily painted as Clinton revenge.

I hope that our majority is capable of handling more than one task at a time, and that we manage to pass some legislation that favors working Americans while the subpoenas work. Impeachment would then be taken more seriously by the public.

[RoyGBiv]

11. I don't know if that's valid ...

Take Grant, for example. Even fans of US Grant will admit fairly quickly that he was not a successful President. (In some lists he is ranked near the bottom.) Even though a revisionist (in the non-pejorative sense) movement is under way to reevaluate his Presidency, the best that is coming out of it is essentially a notation, a footnote of sorts, that the problem wasn't so much due to any moral failing on his part, but that he was one of those people who is truly good at one thing, and when taken out of that environment, falters. The next best conclusion that has been given runs something along the lines of him being the most successful Reconstruction President, which isn't saying much.

He was elected twice mostly due to popularity, the use of the "bloody shirt," and the blame laid at the feet of Democrats for the Civil War. His administration was, however, one of the most corrupt in this nation's history, and for that reason, he is often referred to as a failed President. And in his case, the great lot of the corruption wasn't directly attributable to him except by association and his failure either to realize it or take measures to stop it.

In any case, the judgment of history is the least of the reasons that we should consider impeachment of Bush. If that's all we have as a reason, then we really have nothing. I fully believe he deserves impeachment ... and conviction and removal, but I am not so sure it is politically the correct course to take. Regardless, I'll just say this.

Whatever Conyers believes should be done, I'll support.

[radfringe]

14. It's in the timing

Dependent on print news and TV news - the public is not widely aware of the doings by the bushies.

Posters/lurkers on sites such as the DU are more informed - although the internet has enabled more people to gather more information and share it, the general public just has a brief hint of what's in the air.

With the impeachment of Clinton - the public supported Clinton and saw the impeachment as a stunt.

Bush/Cheney support isn't there, however to thrust an impeachment process out of the blue could be seen as payback by the public, and I don't think the public would support it. It will have to come from outside of congress, a grassroots outcry and outrage needs to come first.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I find it interesting

that we have many who rail on about immigrants breaking the law and yet we seem willing to ignore the POTUS breaking even more serious laws and causing much more damage.

Yes, we MUST stop this bastard from serving 2 full terms.

[ThomWV]

18. If We Are A Just Society Then Known Criminals Must Face Justice

As far as I'm concerned there is no other argument that needs be made in favor of impeachment other than this. We are a society of laws, if our laws are not enforced our society brakes down. Impeachment is the enforcement of law at the highest level. If we will not enforce law at the highest level our society fails at not only the top but at every level below. Impeachment is a duty of our representatives, not simply an available option to be exercised at the whim of a somehow independent Congress.

[porphyrian]

23. When the truth is actually reported, republicans will be screaming to impeach the loudest.

They've defended these traitors, drank their koolaid, believed every lie. When they are no longer able to deny the truth, when their reality shatters around them and they realize that, not only have they been lied to but that WE WERE RIGHT, they are going to tear those fuckers apart. This last election showed this to some degree, with the swifter, less-sheltered ones coming to. I doubt it will take six months of investigations to have a mob with pitchforks and torches out for blood, but we'll see, I suppose.