The final vote is 58 Ayes and 42 Nays proves a filibuster was possible

[ProSense]

they did not have 60 votes.

[Botany]

1. Gutless wonders

:grr:

yes on cloture but no on Alito?

Bet ya Joe L. was one of them.

update shithead list

Akaka
Bingaman
Cantwell
Carper
Dorgan
Inouye
Kohl
Landrieu
Lieberman
Lincoln
Nelson (FL)
Pryor
Rockefeller
Salazar

[radio4progressives]

53. both Nelson's voted Yes on Cloture , plus a few others n/t

[springhill]

55. A fig leaf......

that's all it is.

[corkhead]

59. these are worse in my book because they are playing both sides

the REAL vote was the cloture vote. At least Byrd had the guts to stand for what he believed in instead of switching his vote like scumbags like Lieberman did. Joe, I don't want your no vote.

If it were a baseball just hit into the bleachers at Wrigley Field, I would throw it back onto the field.

As Far as I am concerned, no on Alito after yes on cloture is WORSE than yes and yes. At least the yesyes Dems stood on principle, even if misguided and wrong.

[AntiFascist]

98. Bookmarked again

:mad: :grr: :nuke:

[sundancekid]

2. EGGSACTLY - fuzzy math on counting chicken(hawks) b4 they (orrin)hatch

btw:

the demos crossovers are:
BYRD
CONRAD
JOHNSON
NELSON of NE

the r's crossover is one:
CHAFEE

the indy:
JEFFORDS

[question everything]

48. Lieberman, then, is owed an apology (nt)

[Jo March]

49. No, he's not.

He voted yes on cloture. Enough said.

[samhsarah]

51. F*CK Lieberman...

I hope he gets his pathetic loser ass handed to him in the primaries.

[FreedomAngel82]

65. Chafee voted no?

Oh wow. I'm surprised! I hope he stays safe....

[Chemical Bill]

75. I hope he loses the primary.

His opponent will be much easier to beat in November.

Bill

[samhsarah]

3. Goddamnit.

That just pisses me off even more than I already was. Goddamn traitors.:grr: :grr: :grr:

[bunny planet]

4. I think I'm going to be sick.

Bottomless disappointment.

Can we please, once and for all, get Joementum out of office. He is such a tool.

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. But is simply would have been overturned by the nuclear option and

he still would have been confirmed. What good would be accomplished by such an empty gesture?

[Dr Fate]

6. Specualtion/Excuse. Frist would have balked.

It's all specualtion now. We should have showed some spine against Frist.

[HereSince1628]

18. Yes, it's all speculation on "coulda, shoulda"

Maybe there is some utility there, but I'm gonna focus on what my senator Kohl did. This wasn't just another vote. I'm gonna try to see that yesterday's crap is going to cost him.

Today's vote was pointless. Unity in the dems when it doesn't matter is just happy horse shit. Unity when it would have counted. Priceless.

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. Frist wants the GOP nomination in 2008

His chances whould be nil if he had blinked. He knows that.

[Dr Fate]

37. Well, all specualtion aside he and Bush kicked our ass yet again.

Is their a comforting excuse or talking point that will change that?

[BigYawn]

64. Exactly, Frist would have no option except go NUCLEAR

to have any chance at all for nomination in 2008.
The truth is he has so little chance anyway, it
would'nt have done him any good anyway.

[samhsarah]

10. AN EMPTY GESTURE

is voting no on the nomination and yes on cloture. Shutting down the Congress because the pukes want to run the place like an effing *gasp* "plantation" is NOT an empty gesture. It is a very big gesture that says "QUIT FUCKING WITH US YOU NAZI'S"

[Dr Fate]

15. Now the "DEMS have no spine" perception will stick even harder.

And no amount of comforting excuses will change that.

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. Has shutting down the government been a successful political strategy

in the past? What happened the last time a political party shut down the government?

[ProSense]

12. See this excellent post

by Czolgosz:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=279471&mesg_id=279922

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. Not one Republican voted against cloture

It's pretty safe to say that they were pretty united on this.

[ProSense]

39. There are only 55 republicans.

Three Democrats voted for Alito, total 58. Forty-one Democrats voted against alito. Even if the Republicans got the one moderate, that's only 59.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. And they only need 50 votes to sustain the nuclear option

Cheney would then break the tie

[ProSense]

46. Don't buy the bogeyman. See post 12. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. There is no evidence that even one Republican would have

crossed party lines to oppose the nuclear option.

[samhsarah]

44. Well whaddya know....

The American Nazi Party couldn't have done it without any help from our beloved Dems. Makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?

[CTLawGuy]

67. At least we would have forced them to use it

instead of letting them bully us with it. The Nuke Option is a complete abrogation of Senate Rules and they would pay at the polls if they used it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

72. Most voters don't care about the arcane rules of the Senate

'They ended filibusters of judicial nominees' isn't a very catchy campaign slogan.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

85. I guess we'll never get to find out now, though, eh?

[HereSince1628]

7. Exactly.

[debbierlus]

8. Of COURSE it was possible

The people who voted no today and didn't support a filibuster are a yes vote as far as I am concerned.

NO EXCUSE

NONE

SHAME ON THEM.

[Not_So_Right_Wing]

9. this sucks...

senate Democrats...FIND SOME SPINE!!!

[unblock]

11. you can't read too much into individual votes.

once the outcome is known senators at the margin are free to to whatever they want.

most notably, they can sell their vote or appease one constituency or another, or solicit campaign donations in exchange for a vote (oh, right, that would be illegal, they would NEVER do that....)

point is that the 25 votes we got for cloture just means that 13 or so senators who would have voted if we reached 41 didn't want to be on the losing side knowing we didn't have 41.

also, some people who did want alito in were free to vote "no", again knowing that he had 51 votes locked up.


tough to know what's going on just looking at how a senator votes. there's ALWAYS a deal behind the scenes.

[ProSense]

21. Try, twist arm, especially

if they were going to vote no and did not want him in. Take a stand.

Even if unsustainable, the message would have been worth sending.

[PatsFan2004]

23. Good point you make.

[Dr Fate]

24. Threaten to pull their committee positions.

Thats what the winners (Republicans) do.

[baby_bear]

74. They could have refrained from voting on the cloture vote

The Republicans needed 60 votes to shut down debate.
We didn't need 41 to keep it going.
Why didn't senators like Cantwell (mine) just not vote at all,
or vote "present" rather than vote yes on cloture?

I don't get it.

First, do no harm. That should apply to senators, not just doctors.

b_b

[chelsea0011]

13. Snowe and Collins voted for Alito? I am now voting in Maine to

vote against these two frauds acting as moderates.

[mainegreen]

61. Hear Hear!

Lets toss them out! They're moderates only in the sense that they don't goose-step.

[stepnw1f]

86. My Bro Will Be Working Hard to Replace these Bottom Feeders (nt)

[newportdadde]

14. There were only 25 true no votes, these others are flip floppers.

I was for alito before I was against him.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. just because they didn't vote to confirm

does not mean they would have supported a fillibuster. Dems did NOT have the votes for a filibuster. That is what the cloture vote was all about. Without 60 votes YES on cloture, you can support a filibuster...there were 70+ for cloture...

Sorry...filibuster DID not happen...proving Dems did NOT have the votes...

subjectProdigal

[Mistwell]

66. I agree

It's false to claim that voting against Alito is the same as voting for a filibuster. There are some who have a philosophical difference between voting against someone, and allowing a filibuster to go forward. The vote itself is a democratic act. Filibustering is not (though it is something permitted by our odd system). And when the shoe was on the other foot (and I am plenty old enough to remember when it was), every Democrat I knew understood that philosophical difference. The idea that a minority of Republicans would hold up a vote on confirmation on ideological grounds was something me and other Democrats rejected for many years.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. We don't even want to know who they were because the only number that

we'll remember is 19.

[TahitiNut]

25. And the Dems only needed 13 of those 19. (72-13=59, short of cloture)

:shrug: The whole country will pay dearly for this political corruption.

[DrGrishka]

35. Actually 15

There were 2 GOP no-shows, Ensign and Hagel. They would have voted for cloture, but didn't show up when it was in doubt. (Ensign was in a hospital).

[seabeyond]

19. difference being opposed to alito and for a procedure

filibuster. two seperate questions. though we like to say it isnt

[Dr Fate]

20. Voting to end debate on a lifetime appointment is un-democratic.

Small D.

[seabeyond]

29. certainly in your opinion, lol lol right dr fate. cause after

all, it is there that a vote to end debate is in procedure which has always run our democracy in the past.

i mean isnt this not the truth, a but sound good words.

like: it is a yes vote for alito if you dont vote no on filibuster. no ... one is a no vote agaisnt alito. one is a no vote on filibuster. i mean, i am just a logical kinda person. this is hard for me to understand why someone doesnt understand .... a word. there are definitions. that helps us.

now while in the filibuster activism, i said a no vote to filibuster is a yes vote to alito, all the while knowing a person could not want alito, like him or agree with him. and still not believe that it was a good idea to filibuster. htose two things CAN be seperate in my brain. i dont get why people pretend otherwise

and yawl want to go after the dems that didnt vote for filibuster, or didnt abstain, i dont care. do it.

[Dr Fate]

32. The "DEMs are spineless" perception will now be stronger than ever.

Spin that one. Come up with an excuse to stop that one.

DEMs should have let the debate continue and they should have fought. They chose to ignore the activist base, once again.

The excuses will not change a thing.

[seabeyond]

40. you know what, i am not too impressed with most all dems handling

of the dem spineless shit. i think that is such a bullshit line, that dems on this board alone feed all the friggin time and i dont buy it. never have. do hear a lot lot lot of people buying it

nah, i see a lot of spine, sorry. i think byrd was showing spine and spite and believed in something and wasnt gonna let his party force him into something he didnt believe. i think you could see it. still had spine. just not for our goal. kerry had spine. he knew it wouldnt work i am sure. he didnt like it. he had promised a fight. he is pissed at bushco. the people wanted it. he knew he would be attacked everywhere, from everyone. even his supporters, ...... i dont care why he is doing it.... well fuck

he had spine

you could say reid didnt have spine... or biden or obama.... but they did what the party demanded. they didnt believe in filibuster. htey would be the ones that rolled because of kerry and kennedy and the people, but in essence that is what their job is

this spine thing is a tricky business.

but if we want to continue to roll and play in it, whatever. media and repugs enjoy it too much. it will always be the first thing out of their mouth,.... or elitists, ...... or ridicule

[Dr Fate]

45. I mean spine against Bush, not spine against Kerry or the DEM base.

n/t

[WilliamPitt]

22. They would have found them if the cloture vote had failed

They didn't have the 60 because they didn't need them.

[Dr Fate]

27. How do Repubs "find" votes that we cant "find?"

I dont think that pointing out how Republicans are organized and focused on winning is a good excuse for why we caved.

Good for Republicans- so what was our excuse?

[WilliamPitt]

30. "Vote my way or lose your committe chair/pork/junket" - Frist

It is called arm-twisting. GOP Senators are in the majority, and therefore have powerful positions, and can bring money into their districts. That means they have something to lose.

[Dr Fate]

34. And Reid failed to use that same winning tactic, apparently.

Some of the "yes" DEM voters have positions too, do they not?

[WilliamPitt]

42. What does Reid have to take away from them?

[Dr Fate]

47. Do some of the "yes" DEM voters have leadership positions?

???

[WilliamPitt]

52. THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY

No Democrat has a leadership position anywhere in Congress. Not one.

Damn, Doc. Learn how the place works before you get all hepped up.

[Dr Fate]

62. I thought some Dems had coveted positions on influential committees.

Do they not?

Would these committee positions not be pretty good bargaining tools for Reid to "find" votes like Frist does?

Assuming Reid really wanted this fight, that is.

Dont give me that "you need to learn how it works" crap- I can watch CSPAN just like you.

[theboss]

79. Do you really think Harry Reid could force Byrd off Appropriations?

Please.

[Dr Fate]

87. Of course not- only the winners would use hard-ball tactics like that.

The post was in response to how one "finds" votes.

Reid never wanted a filibuster anyway- so it is all beside the point.

[ProSense]

58. Frist doesn't determine the balance. A Democrat would have to

be replaced with a Democrat. Unity kills that threat, as does standing on principle

In the practice of recent years, party conferences convene before the start of each new Congress to elect leaders and determine committee assignments. Each party conference appoints a "committee on committees" to prepare a roster of members it wishes named to the party's specifically allotted committee seats. The percentage of a party's representation within the Senate determines the percentage of seats it will gain on each committee, although exact numbers are subject to negotiation between party floor leaders.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Committees.htm

[ProSense]

28. Where would they have found them?

vote no as in the up-or-down vote and take a stand, even if only once.

Besides if no meant no, why change to yes?

[Javaman]

26. So what does that and 3 bucks get me?

A chi tea and nothing more.

Pigs. spineless pigs.

You know our own democratic senators are our own worst enemy.

It seems like they do everything in their power to undermine themselves.

[trogdor]

43. Pigs are at least tasty.

Weasels is a more accurate description.

[michiganbuckeye1970]

38. This is frustrating

I don't understand why you would allow something that you were going to vote against to come to a vote. Isn't the point, whenever there is a vote, to try to win?

I'm perplexed...if someone has greater insight into this, please explain.

I realize the threat of the Republicans using the so-called nuclear option was hanging out there, but who cares. Sometimes you have to call to see if someone is bluffing.

I can't help but think that the democrats that allowed this to come to a vote were not protecting the interests of not just their constituents, but of the democratic base in general. This is why Dems don't control both houses of congress and why, ultimately, we lost the election to King Imbecile I. The voting fraud only works if the election is close. Neither the Gore nor the Kerry elections should have been even close.

In order for the Dems to take back the power in Washington, I think they need to do the following:

1. Cut ties with corporate America. Re-affirm the parties dedication to working people. This may require the party to redefine what it means to be a working person. It should be anyone that truly could not afford to continue their lifestyle if they went a month or two without pay. Just because you have a so-called office job does not mean you are not part of the working class.

2. Embrace the true values of working class people. Unfortunately, the God issue has to be part of the discussion, but it can be talked about while convincing people that it is a personal issue. But you still have to pay lip service to the ideas of a god and faith, etc.

3. Move completely away from gun control. This is a divisive issue that has cost the Democratic party lots of votes. This doesn't mean that you have to run on a campaign of a gun in every house, but we do have to emphasize that the constitution guarantees the freedom to own guns. For many voters in the West, this issue is the reason they vote republican. Let's get rid of it. Nice idea, but not a good fit for the current mentality of our country.

4. Emphasize that we are the voice of the people, not the voice of the corporation. Run to the very left on social issues (even gay marriage because with the exception of the radically religious who are not going to vote for us anyway, its not that big of a deal), emphasizing a person liberties against laws that intrude on privacy, allow govt intrusion, etc.

5. Let people know that we can mount a strong fight against terrorism without throwing the Constitution out the window.

6. Let people know that the Dem party will be fiscally responsible.

7. Last but not least, the party has to stick together. That may mean backing opponents of current dems in primaries. So be it. We cannot afford to be divided by senators who are not willing to rock the boat every now and again. Perhaps we need younger, more energetic democrats, pit bulls who will fight for working people with a fierce snarl and the willingness to bite, if necessary.

I'm sick of these Republicans being able to act like cowboys when the can't even ride a goddamn horse.

These are just my thoughts on a day that I'm quite pissed off.

[autorank]

50. ...and it proves the Nays on Alito and Yeas on cloture were fradulent

This is a great post. It's like a Zen koan. It makesk no fucking sense. A Nay hurts as much as a Yes on cloture, in fact more. WTF???

[Straight Shooter]

54. But we still have dry gunpowder. Lots and lots of dry gunpowder.

:sarcasm:

[samhsarah]

57. Why not just give that gunpowder to the RayPublicans?

God knows we're never gonna use it.

[Dr Fate]

69. It's not gun powder- it's rose scented nose powder.

[Straight Shooter]

83. LOL. To match their rose-colored glasses. n/t

[Octafish]

56. That's the part that's most maddening. Why weren't the DEMs organized?

Mr. Reid?

Mr. Reid?

Anyone?

Anyone?

[derby378]

60. The Clintons would do well to bolt from the DLC

It obviously isn't doing us any favors.

[cascadiance]

68. Unfortunately it was their creation...

Don't think they will be leaving it any time soon...

[FreedomAngel82]

63. That's not too bad

Did anybody cross over on the republican side? This is why Frist wanted to hurry it up.

[Township75]

71. Yeah but we won today

another great moral victory.

we learned who is on our side.

and other crap I read in this forum after the vote to prevent the fillibuster.

[mmonk]

73. No on Alito

and yes on cloture is a political vote. Show, but no substance, just pretense.

[mom cat]

76. We were sold down the river by our own party. I will support

individual Democrats, but not one dime is going to any organization that gives one dime to the traitors... not one GD dime!

[Wordie]

77. Write ONE message, send email/online FAX to ALL the Traitor Dem Senators

Write ONE message, send email/online FAX to ALL the Traitor Dem Senators:
(FAX is free.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x281279

[Zodiak]

78. HEre is th list of Democrats that betrayed us

in the context of their votes during this entire congressional session. Anyone see a pattern?

DEMOCRATIC SENATOR LIBERAL INDEX
-------------------------------------------
Harkin (Iowa) 89.2
Boxer (California) 85.7
Lautenberg (New Jersey) 85.7
Akaka (Hawaii) 78.6
Durbin (Illinois) 78.6
Kennedy (Massacheusetts) 78.6
Kerry (Massacheusetts) - DLC 78.6
Corzine (New Jersey) 71.4
Dayton (Minnesota) 71.4
Feingold (Wisconsin) 71.4
Levin (Michigan) 71.4
Mikulski (Maryland) 71.4
Reed (Rhode Island) 71.4
Sarbanes (Maryland) 71.4
Obama (Illinois) 67.9
Dodd (Connecticut) - DLC 64.3
Leahy (Vermont) 64.3
Shumer (New York) 64.3
Wyden (Oregon) 64.3
Bayh (Indiana) - DLC 64.3
Biden (Deleware) 64.3
Clinton (New York) - DLC 60.7
Dorgan (North Dakota) - DLC 57.1
Stabenow (Michigan) - DLC 57.1
Inouye (Hawaii) 57.1
Reid (Nevada) 57.1
Byrd (West Virginia) 50
Murray (Washington) 50
Rockefeller (West Virgnia) 50
Bingaman (New Mexico) 42.9
Cantwell (Washington) - DLC 42.9
Johnson (South Dakota) - DLC 42.9
Kohl (Wisconsin) - DLC 42.9
Baucus (Montana) - DLC 39.3
Conrad (North Dakota) - DLC 39.3
Feinstein (California) 39.3
Leiberman (Connecticut) - DLC 35.7
Carper (Deleware) - DLC 28.6
Lincoln (Arkansas) - DLC 21.4
Nelson (Florida) - DLC 21.4
Salazar (Colorado) - DLC 21.4
Pryor (Arkansas) - DLC 17.9
Landrieu (Louisianna) - DLC 14.3
Nelson (Nebraska) - DLC 0.0

[theboss]

80. Where did that Index come from?

Because there is no way on earth Rockefeller is at 50 percent on any liberal issue. And I find it hard to believe that Nelson is a 0 percent.

[Zodiak]

82. here....I score them myself, and post the methodology.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/18/19162/775

The word "liberal" is misleading (a by-product of the first time I did this scale). It really should be called an "Anti-Bushco" index, but it still applies. ADA scores are not consistent with what I perceive to be political reality.

[SharonRB]

81. Exactly -- if only those who voted no

would have voted against cloture...what a difference that would have made!

[rodeodance]

84. Thank all the Senators at this website.

- Original Message --------
Subject: Thank the senators who stood against Alito
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:04:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: TrueMajority <[e-mail] >
Reply-To: [e-mail]...
To:




Dear xxxx,

We’re not going to try to put an upbeat spin on it – Samuel Alito’s confirmation today as the newest member of the Supreme Court is bad news. But we’re in this for the long haul, and the work for a more just and sustainable America will continue.

Thousands of TrueMajority members called Congress, and tens of thousands more sent letters asking senators to stand up for a filibuster and allow for a full debate of Samuel Alito’s record. Twenty-five senators did this, and in doing so showed political courage in the face of overwhelming odds. A total of 42 stood up against Judge Alito’s appointment during the final vote.

Click here to thank the senators who stood up for a filibuster:

http://action.truemajority.org/campaign/thanksforthefig... ?

Click here to thank all the senators who voted against Alito:

http://action.truemajority.org/campaign/thanksforyourvo... ?

It’s important to keep working hard for the type of country we want, but it’s also important to let those who stand with us know we appreciate their efforts.

According to Ralph Neas, the head of People for the American Way, "Senators who voted to extend debate did everything possible to defeat the nomination of Samuel Alito to a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court. They also upheld the Senate’s crucial role in our system of checks and balances. We believe that time will confirm the wisdom of their attempt to defeat this nominee".

Let’s show them our gratitude by sending them a thank you letter—it’ll let them know that they did the right thing and have our support.

Thanks for all that you do,

Matt Holland
TrueMajority

P.S. To see how senators voted on Alito's confirmation, click here.

Visit the web address below to tell your friends about this.
Tell-a-Friend!

If you received this message from a friend, you can sign up for TrueMajority.




TrueMajority.org is a grassroots group of citizens who believe in America's true values of openness, fairness and compassion. We believe participating in an effective government is the best way to be mutually responsible for our community.

TrueMajority.org, 191 Bank Street, Third Floor, Burlington, VT 05401

[mcscajun]

88. Links not working...wind up seeing a "Get Active" 404 page

:(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. You May Want To Learn A Bit More About How Congress Works Before

making such inaccurate declarations.

Just a suggestion.

[ProSense]

90. What was inaccurate about the statement? n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. The Notion That A No Vote For Alito Is Identical To A Yes Vote For The

filibuster. Doesn't quite work that way bud, sorry.

Not to mention, the statement you say of "They Didn't Have 60 Votes".

Oh really? I thought they had seventy fucking two.

A filibuster is always possible. It was possible this time. It failed. There weren't even close to 41 votes, period. The fact that more than 41 voted against his confirmation is INCOMPARABLE to what we would've had for the filibuster. The two are not one and the same.

[ProSense]

93. Reread the OP it doesn't state it happened, it states it was possible. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. You Said It Proves It, As If The Votes Are Comparable.

They're not. Not to mention the vote took place. We didn't get anywhere near 41, so on it's face your post is already not worthy of logic.

As far as just saying "hey, regardless of the reality of the vote, we had enough senators that if they wanted to they could've blah blah" well no shit. We always have enough to do that. That isn't the goddamn point.

[ProSense]

95. No, reread: proves it was possible. Sssssh! n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

96. You Reread.

I addressed that goddamn simplistic point ten damn times already.

[ProSense]

97. Go be mad a someone else. n/t

[mikelewis]

92. We all fucked this one up...

This was set to go but someone pulled the plug on it at the last minute. They most certainly wanted to do it but too many were gunshy. Reid decided to abandon the filibuster, which may have been prudent. They were truly suprised by the level of opposition they recieved and they weren't quite sure how to interpret the sudden avalanche of calls. I think we scared them more than they pissed us off, if that's possible. Truth be known, we fucked this one up just as much as they did. This should have started the second they nominated Alito and not seconds before the vote. We pushed hard enough but not soon enough. Our shock and awe campaign just confused the shit out of everyone.

[Clarkie1]

99. There was no way to stop the Alito nomination.

A filibuster would have been nuked.

We don't have the power...simple as that.

That's what we need to fight for in 06'....regaining the power. It's the only way to win.