This is but one reason why the Taliban can NEVER be "accepted" into Afghani gov't

[Roland99]

Disembowelled, then torn apart: The price of daring to teach girls
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2023831.ece

The gunmen came at night to drag Mohammed Halim away from his home, in front of his crying children and his wife begging for mercy.

The 46-year-old schoolteacher tried to reassure his family that he would return safely. But his life was over, he was part-disembowelled and then torn apart with his arms and legs tied to motorbikes, the remains put on display as a warning to others against defying Taliban orders to stop educating girls.

Mr Halim was one of four teachers killed in rapid succession by the Islamists at Ghazni, a strategic point on the routes from Kabul to the south and east which has become the scene of fierce clashes between the Taliban and US and Afghan forces.

...

"I think they killed him that way to frighten us, otherwise why make a man suffer so much? Mohammed Halim and his family were good friends of ours and we are very, very upset by what has happened. He came to me when the threats first began and asked what he should do. I told him to move somewhere safe. I think he was trying to arrange that when they came and took him," she said.

These filthy vermin CANNOT be allowed to be participating members of civilization. They must be marginalized and eliminated. I fear the only way for that to happen is yet another country inflamed in a civil war, Afghanistan.

I weep for this planet.

[TaleWgnDg]

1. Q: Since when is America the police officer of the world? n/t

[Roland99]

2. For situations like Rwanda, Darfur, and the Taliban in Afghanistan, the world has a duty...

and we, along with NATO and UN troops need to step in.

I remember getting an email re: the Taliban and their oppression of women a few months before 9/11. The email was part of a campaign that was to go to the UN and present a case for UN involvement to stop the Taliban.

The best way to eliminate these radical Islamists is to nip them at the root and have the various Muslim nations (heck, any nation) stamp out the militant madrassas and clamp down on radical groups and foster moderation and even provide opportunities for employment for their citizens. The hundreds of billions spent on Iraq could have done wonders for humanitarian aid for many nations on this planet.

However, these radical groups will not go down quietly so there will be violence for years to come but the US and other major nations MUST get the Muslim leaders of the world involved in a true effort to stamp out terrorism and oppression.

[acmavm]

3. I wonder what you would say if that is the kind of government

we had here. If busholini & corp.(or a raging united band of fundie fruitcakes that our government couldn't control) were disembowling innocent people just because they were trying to better the lives of women. Would you think that someone should come to our aid?

Karzai and the is NOT the Afgan government. They have no powers, they control nothing but a few blocks of Kabul. He is irrelevant. So we won't even try to make the argument that the Afgani government should take control of this issue. They can't even go off the reservation.

[bryant69]

4. That's right. After all only American lives have meaning

Only Americans deserve freedom of speech and freedom of religion and freedom of thought and civil rights and so on and so forth. That's what it says in the Declaration of Independence if memory serves. We hold these thruths to be self evident - that all Americans are created equal, that Americans are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

So to hell with those Afghani girls - if they wanted freedom they should have been born Americans.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Pyrzqxgl]

33. Maybe if we took all that effort in Iraq and used it to eliminate the Talaban

this world would be a bettert place, however as long as Afghanistan is a major opium source the international drug trade, mob interests with Republican friends in high places the Talaban isn't going anywhere. At least not asx long as the poppies keep a bloomin'

[MrPrax]

5. "of civilization"?

It's a club is it?

These white supremacist raps don't sound anymore convincing even if they employ the language of liberalism?

It's one of those 'law and order' laments when people can't understand why someone who rob and kill someone over 10 bucks. It's a twisted moral code that suggests that killing for so little is unintelligible, repugnant, irrational and beyond the pale of human activity, while killing for a 'cause' (larger amounts of money, for civilization, for faith, for the nation-state, defend the honor of the 'faer' sex) is more rationale and therefore defensible.

Moreover using this moral code allows people to then classify some 'civilized' and some 'uncivilized' so you don't notice that the writer is actually suggesting actions far more terrible and barbaric than the 'original sin'.

The poster wants us to know he wants to kill on behalf of 'human rights' and not a dimebag.

I weep for liberals.

[Roland99]

6. WTF are you rambling about? Re-read my post and try using some thought this time.

[MrPrax]

11. So you have nothing else?

1) You've been in Afghanistan for five years? How did you let this happened tho this school teacher? I bring this up since you are clearly advocating more of the same -- since you had five years to protect this school teacher and you have failed, then maybe you should 'try using some thought this time' Or humility.

2) Do we NOW believe everything we read in the newspaper? You wouldn't sound so noble if the 'narrative' were presented as one where the 'enemy' had simply dispatched 'enemy collaborators' and then hung their bodies as a warning to say, Sandinista supporters, but these stories about the enemy (not us, 'our' news is censored) must include a 'human rights' motive with a grisly killing and ignore 'context' which makes defenders of racist imperialism look like 'same old, same old'.

As you state, you received 'postings' about this even before the war. That should give you pause for thought that your genuine sympathies are being manipulated.

3) Your concern for women and children is noble, but that would mean consenting to methods of war that actually place women and children in harms' way. So that means you must rely on the same justification of every dictator on the planet; "The ends justify the means". Is this part of our civilization to augur God's plan or liberalism's march and kill 'evil' people. Does it make much sense to build school houses on depleted uranium dumps?

4) Don't you find it strange that your political allies on this 'excellent little adventure' in the ME are groups not known for their support of human rights or even freedoms for women.

This virtually 'rainbow coalition' of social reform runs the gambit of the evangelical community to the radical edge of neo-conservatism to the palaces of the House of Saud through to the political offices of the Zionist right to the Pakistani dictatorship.

Strange company you find yourself in when arguing about protecting women and their rights while allied with people who generally think joining a trade union is a violation of human rights. But you would have us believe that your motive for 'vengeance' on behalf of civilization is 'better' than their shitty excuses of resource control, projection of power, lining up all the Jews in the Jebusland, defending 'our way of life', containing the Soviet threat, etc etc.

5) According to the UN, Afghani women are starving as well. How does this look to Afghani women when the white people who are killing them say they are doing it for their benefit, but only bring guns, bombs and notebooks, but and no food. I imagine women in Afghanistan have some solidarity with women in New Orleans on this score. Ironic they both have to deal with the same government forces.

6)Do you really believe that you can solve complex problems and build stable societies against a backdrop of foreign occupation, violence and torture? Can you provide us with some examples -- besides the ironic fact that we funded and supported the *same* factions in Afghanistan against an secular western 'enemy' that we deployed the same propaganda against. Funny when we were killing Afghanis then, high moral arguments like the protection of women were noticeably absent. In fact the well-being of the Afghan people were a distant second to the 'THREAT' presented by our enemies' designs for a 'warm water port'.


So I do question your motives.

[Roland99]

14. Again, wtf have you been smoking???

In your two replies to me you have 1) adopted an apologist stance for the Taliban and 2) insulted me by claiming I'm in league with the Taliban (or so I gathered above).


Seriously, dude. Try using some actual thought in reading my OP.

[cali]

20. Don't bother.

There are people who simply aren't worth responding too. BTW, I agree that the Taliban should not be allowed to reinstitute their reign of terror. And anyone who's read anything about what life under the Taliban was like, and rambles on about how bush is worse and imperialism, is simply full of it.

[MrPrax]

38. Apologist?

Not me...

I am sickened by ALL of it.

That's why I find Bush and his supporters to be insufferable hypocrites..

[Ms. Clio]

18. Well, I understand your posts quite well

some people really do believe they have to destroy the village in order to save it.

[Roland99]

19. Yes, and I'm NOT one of those. How does anyone get that from my OP?

[Ms. Clio]

21. I'm not thinking so much of your OP, as a general attitude I see often

the idea that you can truly help or liberate people by dropping bombs on them and killing their families.

[Roland99]

22. W T F??? Jesus Christ people. READ WHAT I WROTE. Here, let me dumb it down >>>>

My point was that it would take an internal struggle, probably a violent one, for Afghanistan to rid itself of the Taliban. That's why I wrote the words "civil war".



NOWHERE am I advocating an invasion or further intervention by anyone!!!




:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

24. could you dial it down a notch?

and re-read what I wrote? I am thinking of more than your post, believe it or not.

[Roland99]

26. Sorry...it read like you were one of "them"...accusing me of *wanting* to invade or something.

it just burns me up that anyone would think that.

[Ms. Clio]

28. I think this has been a conversation that has evolved past your original post

certainly it is a problem that ultimately Afghanistan will have to solve on its own.

[Roland99]

30. Well, you just nailed what my original point was!

:D

[Ms. Clio]

32. I know!

:)

[wuushew]

7. Did it ever occur to anyone that violence in Afghanistan may be a result of the natural environment?

Barbarism and tribalism may be the natural outgrowths of a society composed of numerous ethnicities in a poor, high altitude and land locked country.

Western civilization may be nothing more than combination of exploiting coal and iron to forge vast global empires dependant on maritime trade and interdependent economies. Were advances in education and wealth distribution deliberate or were they reactions to the new paradigms of Western industrialization?

What factors would overcome the natural homeostasis of Afghanistan? During the hey day of the Silk Road numerous central Asian kingdoms were enriched by the external wealth of trade. Sea routes ended the source of this external revenue and the region was again impoverished. What is the 21st century replacement for these funds?

Heroine is one possibility, but current domestic policy does not make narcotic cultivation legitimate nor tolerated even though we have no authority to curtail its existence in other countries. In the global economy any effort to become competitive with other sources of production would have to price the cost of Afghan labor below that of vast pool of labor in East Asia and be lower still to offset the additional expenses being a landlocked resource poor nation. The net amount of wealth brought into the country would be insignificant after these necessary discounts are enacted.


So it can be shown that the only way to raise Afghanistan out of its perpetual funk would be a constant supply of aid dollars. I find it doubtful that United States would ever do this since we are notably stingy on both food aid and and other worthy causes like AIDS relief. Outrage over cultural barbarism simply enables the Neocons to shield their true agenda with the lies of compassion.

[The2ndWheel]

9. Now that's a post

Many of the points made could use their own book or two.

[Roland99]

10. What are the agricultural options for Afghanistan?

Would corn, soy, cotton, etc. grow there to any level of success?

[wuushew]

12. I know wheat will grow in Afghanistan

apparently before the Soviet invasion the country was self sufficient in cereal production.

Nuts and fruits are the main exports. Nobody should expect Afghanistan to become a bread basket though since only 2% of the land is arable.


www.adb.org/Documents/Reports/Afghanistan/Agriculture/Rebuilding_Agriculture_Sector_AFG.pdf

[Roland99]

15. Well, it's something. And why not develop more industry, at least of service variety?

Surely the brainpower that must exist in Afghanistan can come up with something instead of fostering hateful and violent groups that twist the basic tenets of Islam for their power-hungry egos.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. It is excellent marijuana-growing country,

too bad we in the West can't seem to admit that we smoke it.

[David__77]

8. Imperialism waving the flag of "human rights."

It's still imperialism. History has shown US aggression can do no good. If it weren't for the US aid, the fundamentalists would have never been a serious threat in the first place, in the 80's, and a progressive gov't would still be in power. Remember, the women of Kabul were free to be doctors, teachers, and wear makeup in the 80's, but Reagan called it "oppression."

[Marrah_G]

13. This goes beyond disemboweling a teacher.

Under the Taliban women have far more to worry about then education. Their very lives were in jeopardy every day. A woman could not see a doctor unless that doctor was her husband, brother or father. A woman could not leave the house without a husband, father or brother escorting her. Not even to buy food. And if no male immediate family member was available then she was to stay inside and hope neighbors would bring her food or she could die.

Think of this: You live with your sister. Your family was killed in the war with Russia. Your sister becomes ill. She has a raging fever. You cannot leave the house to get medicine, you cannot leave the house to take her to a hospital, you cannot call a doctor and ask them to treat her at home, you cannot go down the street to buy food to help her fight the illness. You instead rely on caring neighbors to take pity of you and bring you food.

Under the Taliban women have zero value except to bear children and serve their male family members. No rights, not even the most basic of human rights.

If the Taliban are allowed back in control you are condemning women to a life worse then slavery.

What we should have done was poured all our resources into rebuilding Afghanistan. Instead we turned to Iraq, spent our resources there and wasted the chance we had to truly help the people of Afghanistan recover from decades of war.

Now Iraq is in peril of becoming like Afghanistan was. Ruled by religious zealots with no concern for basic human rights.

I would call the Taliban uncivilized and I would call them barbaric. Of course nothing I would say would matter to them because I am female and not worthy of an opinion.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen4.htm

[Roland99]

16. RAWA. That's the group I was trying to think of earlier. Here's a link to one site about it.

Risking All to Expose the Taliban
http://www.rawa.org/wired.htm


and here's another

Petition to the United Nations re: Taliban Gov't in Afghanistan
http://dawn.thot.net/taliban.html

[malaise]

17. So how is this different from bombing cities

or using tank fire in civilian areas? One group does it to oppress women and another does it to steal oil. Less vulgar forms of murder are still murder. Fugg the Taliban and fugg Bushco and Bliar.

[Darkhawk32]

23. Sorry, OP. This thread proves that some people here in DU have 0 reading comprehension skills.

When extremists get to the point where they commit these types of atrocities. No amount of "peace, love, dope" is going to change them. It's better to help a society rid them from within with indirect support from without.

Roland99, you've gotten way too much bullshit from a very good post.

Shame on people trolling this thread.

Kicked and Nom'd.

[Ms. Clio]

25. "Indirect supprt from without"

like the help the U.S. provided to the mujahadin forerunners of the Taliban in order to repel the invasion of the Communists who had immensely improved the lives of Afghan women?

Or what?

[Darkhawk32]

27. Sure, you're exactly right. /rolls eyes.

Quit being a troll and actually think before posting.

[Ms. Clio]

29. don't have the historical knowledge to follow that comparison, I see

try reading some history before posting, why don't you?

[Darkhawk32]

37. Maybe your sense of history is so narrow, that you assume the worst in someone's intentions or means

I feel sorry for you.

[Bake]

31. So, all you handwringers, what do you suggest?

Just let the Taliban continue to do what it does, because we certainly have no moral basis to condemn their actions?

Just stay the fuck out of it altogether and let the strongest survive? That is to say, let Afghanistan solve its own problem? (Mind you, I'm not suggesting we intervene; we've already fucked up badly enough in Iraq.).

Meanwhile, we just sit here and wring our hands about how awful it is over there?

Platitudes are easy when you're anonymous.

Bake

[Marrah_G]

35. Good reading

This is a book by a young Afgani woman for those who are interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Bed-Red-Flowers-Search-Afghanistan/dp/0679312722
Believe it or not I found it in the book section of a local supermarket.

[Roland99]

36. Thanks for the tip!