Regarding civility on DU.

[Cyrano]

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
That's a quote from Will Rogers. And it is, I believe, a great statement about our refusal to march in lockstep (or goose step).

He stated one of the greatest characteristics of all of us who call ourselves Democrats. We refuse to close our eyes and go along with our party on each and every single issue. And it's also the major characteristic that separates us from Republicans.

Having said this, I have a gripe to air. Many of us have had the experience of posting comments here with which others disagree. And there's nothing wrong with that. My gripe, however, is the nature of those disagreements.

Who among us hasn't posted something against "traditional democratic values?" I've done it from time to time and gotten agreements, disagreements and personal attacks.

And it's those personal attacks that I find disturbing. I have often disagreed with a post, responded to it, and tried to be as diplomatic as possible in the words I chose to respond to the original poster. (And, yes, there may have been times where I failed in my efforts at diplomacy.)

Unfortunately, I believe that too many disputes among ourselves lead to flame wars, outright hostility and insulting comments directed at an original poster.

So let me get to my point. While we can't expect decency from our opponents on the right, we should demand a certain degree of decency and respect from each other. You have every right to disagree with a post, but this is a plea to do so in a respectful manner.

Given human nature, I may be shoveling crap against the tide here, but if only a few of you heed this plea, it will help.

(Gotta' get back to work, but I'll reply to agreements or disagreements to this post as soon as I can.)

[Rowdyboy]

1. The pre-election year before the primaries in 2004 was pretty brutal here

Many people seem to feel that if they support one Democrat, they must tear down and denigrate all other Democrats. I find that attitude juvenile and counter-productive, but you'll see a lot of it here until the 2008 nominee is selected. :shrug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

5. "There can be only one"

I've come to the conclusion that primary season reminds me of the movie "The Highlander" Think about it, once every four years we go around chopping off each others heads, and to the last person standing goes the prize.

It's an interesting ritual, but not real pretty to watch.

[Kolesar]

11. the Brown vs. Hackett struggle was poorly handled ... eom

[blm]

16. The big difference is when people argue policies and issues instead of the manufactured

controversies ginned up by the corporate media.

I honestly lost respect for a few I once considered on my side when they used "the Scream' as a point against Dean. That was no point - it was a media lie - and media lies get ZERO applause and certainly ZERO mileage from me.

[OneBlueSky]

2. the anonymity of the internet seems to give people license . . .

to say things to others that they would never consider saying face-to-face . . . insults and derogatory comments seem to be the norm for some people when engaging in debates -- if they can't attack the issue, they attack the person . . .

personally, I tend to simply disregard posts (and posters) who engage in this kind of incivility . . . I try to focus my comments on issues, and recognize that not everyone is going to agree with me on ANYTHING . . . I respect their right to disagree, and hope that they respect mine . . .

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I think you are correct

I go to other places where conservatives are allowed to post, and about three quarters of their postings are insulting and mean. I don't type out a response, but when I read some of them (such as the ones who say all Muslims should be killed), I say, "I wonder if that person would say that to my face?" Most of the time, the answer is "No." And as for the other times...I'm glad it is the internet and they DON'T know where I live! :)

[Fridays Child]

3. I have to kick and recommend this because...

...you've said so perfectly what I've been thinking, as well.

[On the Road]

4. I Cannot Tell You How Much I Agree with That

I try to go out of my way to avoid flame wars, but hate to just suppress things because of controversy. That results in those with asbestos skin owning the boards.

If I'm going to take an opposing view, I sometimes try to acknowledge what was right in the opposing post before disagreeing. (It's also one of the most powerful debating tactics.)

Sometimes, I know that a reply is going to get flamed, and while I can see the replies, I don't even look at them, or at least not for a day or two.

Reading unmoderated boards really puts things in perspective -- they are often just poisonous. DU strikes a good balance between freedom and rules. And most of the disagreement is due to deeply held opinions. Activists are often irascible -- look at the suffragettes or labor movement. A lot of good can come despite, or sometimes because of, unflinching argumentativeness.

On the other hand, activism can just as easily be misguided, whether it's Prohibition or anti-abortion. So it behooves all of us to hear opposing viewpoints and think through our own.

[greyl]

6. It's a never ending struggle, I'm afraid.

Many of the most irrationally reactionary posts simply can't be taken seriously. Iow, the incivility isn't exactly because of some character flaw or lack of maturity in the poster, it's because they are intentionally being insincere in order to get peoples goat. Those dingleberries will always be with us.

[truebrit71]

7. Civility? Fuck that!

:evilgrin:

[greyl]

14. I feel your pain.

I can only imagine what terrible strife you've endured in your life to lash out at members of your own progressive community with such disdain. I shall take the high road, so that you might follow, in your own time.
If you take too fucking long or use excessive :rofl:s in your reply, I'll reluctantly put you on ignore for the sake of my own positive mental attitude. But I will never stop loving the awakening being within you, which must be longing to fearlessly emerge.
O8)

[Patiod]

18. ROFLs I can handle - it's the shrugs I find so patronizing

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

23. or the "answer" that only shows this...

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[truebrit71]

25. What do you mean? Are you naturally superior to the rest of us?

:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:


;-)

[uppityperson]

26. !

[annabanana]

30. Oh yeah? Well... eat shit & die...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. I agree with you

civility is important if you are interested in having a reasoned discourse at which all parties can come away with new knowledge. When posters start flame wars, what is achieved? Nothing.

[WI_DEM]

9. I agree with you. It's ok to disagree and with passion but the

tone of some of the attacks are sometimes down right obnoxious.

[skypilot]

12. It's the main reason...

...that I don't post at DU as much as I used to. Even in threads where I'm simply lurking and not actually participating I get disheartened and annoyed after scrolling down just a bit. The snarky comments appear with a depressing predictability.

[ms liberty]

13. K&R: I agree totally...

I've sometimes wondered if some posters were raised without any lessons in courtesy and good manners. Disagreement with someone over an issue or opinion is not a license to be rude, impolite, or insulting. Nor is an advanced education or degree a license to be condescending or patronizing. Some of the smartest people I've known never went to college - and some of the dumbest people I've known had advanced degrees.

I've always tried to be polite, and keep to the issues. There have been a few times that I've been blunt in making my point, but I've tried very hard to not be personally insulting to others. I'm not perfect, but I've never resorted to calling people names, telling them they were 'stupid' or attacking them personally - as has happened to me. There's just no excuse for that kind of behavior. Each and every person deserves dignity and respect as a human being.

[Lilith Velkor]

15. I AM OUTRAGED!! HOW DARE YOU!!!

Ha ha, I kid.

[PVnRT]

17. This. Is. The. Internet.

There are people here for whom this is the only opportunity they have to be listened to, and it is a power trip for them. When you disagree with them, their insecurity leads them to lash out ad say things that they have no courage to say in real life. This is the sole avenue for them to be assholes without getting the living shit kicked out of them, and they take every opportunity to show just how assholish they are.

You are attempting to apply logic and reason to people who think anonymity confers upon them the right to act like spoiled twelve-year-olds. This is not possible. You must fight absurdity with absurdity. Sarcasm drives these idiots nuts, chiefly because they lack a sense of humor. The only rule to follow is never to actually start the fight.

I've never understood why people are so concerned about how random strangers they will never meet on the internet think about them. Once you stop caring about that, life becomes much less stressful.

[Strelnikov_]

19. The Level Of Discourse Has Taken A Dive The Last Year Or So

Many posts that add nothing to the conversation and simply seem intended to incite flames.

To me, it seems we have been infiltrated by some trolls, neither left or right leaning, who just like to argue and stir up shit.

I would like to see the rules modified, or have a couple of forums, where all posts are required to stay on topic, stress civility, and provide some substance to the topic being discussed.

For a beginning, start with "I respectfully disagree . . "

I would hate to see this site degenerate into a Yahoo like flame fest.

[mentalsolstice]

20. I'm really excited about all of our potential candidates!

I'm jazzed about the opportunity to get thoughtful, intellectual, "curious", compassionate individuals in the White House. While some candidates have more potential to win the general election, I'm interested in seeing what they all bring to the table in terms of discussion and debate and in shaping the final platform.

I often browse the dark side, and they all seem to be bemoaning the fact that the Dick won't be running...and have seen suggestions to promote Lynn (ugh).

Let's face it, our bench is much deeper than theirs at this point...ain't life wonderful!

[baby_mouse]

21. Hear, hear!

We vote: "Less nonsense"

clap clap...

[grizmaster]

22. democratic debate is a contact sport

And sometimes you accidently poke someone in the eye.


No really, it was a accident. :evilgrin:


I think most of us feel as you do and try and keep it civil, BUT it's also true we're a pretty opinionated surly lot with a passion for making this country a better place. I think the best we can hope for is to maintain that tradition of shaking hands after the contest in the name of political sportsmanship.

[treestar]

24. Telling people to stop doesn't work

Maybe starting posts on topics where there is likely to be agreement?

A rally around sort of thing. Pictures of Chimpy are often good. Threads about Rush Limbaugh. Who on DU is going to disagree that Rush is a dork?

[hunter]

27. What does it take to get an insulting comment around here?

I try so hard.

If you want to reduce the number of hostile and insulting posts, the best course is to simply let them die. For the most heinous, the "alert" link is your friend.

If you feel you must fight, quietly pick up any poisoned bait and gently hand it back... Yes, sir, thank you for your insightful comment.

[Straight Shooter]

28. Great little sig line, Hunter.

We were so close there was no room
We bled inside each other's wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace
Some came to sing, some came to pray
Some came to keep the dark away
So raise candles high 'cause if you don't
We could stay black against the sky
Oh oh raise them higher again
And if you do we could stay dry against the rain
Lay down lay down lay it all down
Let your white birds smile up
At the ones who stand and frown

[hunter]

29. See, it happened again. No insults.

Thanks.

[eridani]

31. Internets denizens have always called that "netiquette"

Flame wars are and always will be an inherent danger of the medium. The distance between people who are communicating with keyboards facilitates going off on others at the drop of a hat.

Compare manners in a small town with the more anonymous environment of a big city. City people constantly flip off people who cut them off in traffic or act like jerks in queues. Why? Because not knowing the other person means no repercussions in the rest of your life. In a small town, people suppress the urge because the person you want to flip off may very well also be the person who fills your cavities, grades your kid's final exam, digs your well, wires your house, or sits on the zoning board that will rule on the variance you have applied for.

Big city anonymity is jacked up a couple of orders of magnitude on the web, and the only cure IMO is going back to those Netiquette 101 posts that first came out in the early 90s. Nothing has changed since then but the bandwidth.

[karlrschneider]

32. It's a normal consequence of a community in which nobody is ever wrong.

:D

[Critters2]

33. Never say anything negative about Chicago. Trust me.

You haven't seen incivility until you do this.

[ariellyn]

34. Who died and made you civility king? You're not the boss of me.

Are you trying to tell people what they can and can't discuss on a discussion board?


P.S.>

I know how stupid I sound--as stupid as a lot of the uncivil posts you are referring to sound to me when I read them. Just trying to lighten things up a bit. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It seems like some people go out of their way to be mean to anybody who posts a differing opinion--or, heaven forbid--a topic of discussion that would do away with a lot of the divisive drivel that crops up here so often these days.