'Breakfast with Santa' banned (PTA fundraiser- war on christmas heating up)

[The Straight Story]

The community newspaper, the Warwick Advertiser, has a moral obligation to out the person responsible for this exercise in tyranny

Wednesday, November 29, 2006
by William Donohue See all articles by this author | Tags: christmas, united states

Every year the Sanfordville PTA in Warwick, New York does a Santa fundraiser at the local elementary school. Called "Breakfast with Santa," it draws hundreds of kids on a Saturday, all of whom come voluntarily. But because one anonymous bigot objected this year - citing religious discrimination - the event was reworked by school lawyers: there will now be a "Winter Wonderland Breakfast."

Moreover, Santa will now have a partner: Frosty the Snowman has been ordered to join him.

The bigot, of course, wants no compromise and wants Santa removed altogether.

According to Darlene Baratto, who is in charge of the event, "We have a beautiful background people can have a picture in front of. That wasn't good enough. We changed the name, colors, the background. Nothing made her happy. She was not open to anything. We'll have 300 or so kids who are disappointed."

Not to worry, school superintendent Dr. Frank Greenhall reassured everyone when he said, "If you make it an issue, the kids will make it an issue." Now how's that for leadership? Just shut up and don't tell the kids why "Breakfast with Santa" has been censored and they wont know the difference.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=34&idsub=127&id=6829&t='Breakfast+with+Santa'+banned

From the warwick paper:

Is Santa a religious icon?

St. Nick’s appearance at Sanfordville PTA fundraiser draws ire from parent, By Linda Smith Hancharick

Warwick — Frosty the Snowman is sharing top billing this year with Santa at Sanfordville Elementary School’s annual “Breakfast with Santa.” But the event won’t be billed as “Breakfast with Santa” anymore.

This year, the theme has been changed to a “Winter Wonderland Breakfast,” sparked by one parent wanting to exclude religious inference and include all students.

That parent, who did not wish her name to be used, said she and others in the community were offended by the PTA sponsoring an event geared toward one religion. She said that Santa is a religious figure, a figure that represents Christmas, a Christian holiday, and that a public school, by law, is not allowed to do that.

When committee members agreed to change “Breakfast with Santa” to a Winter Wonderland Breakfast, and include Hanukkah traditions, the parent said she felt this still wasn’t fair because it included religious traditions.

“This shouldn’t be just for one person or two person’s religions,” she said. “I wanted to represent all, not just a few.”

http://www.strausnews.com/articles/2006/11/24/warwick_advertiser/news/2.txt

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Wow, there IS a war on Christmas!

And it's not being waged by liberals. It's being waged by bored losers who should volunteer their plentiful free time and energy to help others who are in need.

[PhenyxReturns]

2. I can't wait to see how they...

...try and rep the Wiccan traditions...all of them.:evilgrin:

[Mythsaje]

7. A couple of years ago a local school board

banned some halloween celebrations in their district, actually citing that they were afraid they'd "offend the wiccans" despite the fact that MANY members of the local community went out to the school board meeting to protest it.

We think it's more likely they used that excuse to shift the blame away from their own religious biases to make another group the scapegoat.

On edit: Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[PhenyxReturns]

20. And they BETTER NOT leave out the Christmas Cat.

You know the one that comes in the night and eat little children who didn't get new clothes for Christmas?

[FVZA_Colonel]

35. Not to mention the Holiday Hawk.

(I tried to find a screen shot from those new Sierra Mist Commercials but just couldn't, so I guess the joke probably isn't as effective).

[PhenyxReturns]

52. Ah, but the Christmas Cat is real.

http://www.globalclassroom.org/catxmas.html

[Richard Steele]

55. Yule Yak demands equal time!

[PhenyxReturns]

63. Oh, Sure! Throw the yaks in there...

...and forget all about the poor, loyal, Winter Wombats

[Richard Steele]

81. PFFT! We all know "Winter Wombat" was made up in the 1890s by GreetingCard Inc™...

...in a shameless attempt to ca$h in on the traditional
popularity of our beloved "Boxing Day Badger"!

[kevinbgoode]

92. What about breakfast with the GRINCH?

How DARE they be so intolerant of other points of view - just because the Grinch tried to steal Christmas doesn't mean he doesn't want to celebrate a nice meal. . .

[Nikki Stone1]

96. How about the Hanukkha Armadillo?

Or is it just me who remembers that Friends episode....

[Mythsaje]

3. What a waste of energy...

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid...

[Ron Green]

4. Her anonymity takes away her credibility, IMO.

If you stand for something in your community, tell who you are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. The lady is right. You either include ALL religions...or NONE.

Preferably NONE. This is a school PTA. They have NO BUSINESS having a Breakfast with Santa. They should have a breakfast with Frosty and leave it at that.

[Mythsaje]

8. I think Santa is pretty secular...

It's not like it's breakfast with the baby Jesus.

[aquaman]

9. I agree...nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. Santa = St. Nicholas. He's not secular. n/t

[Nederland]

23. Sure, and Gay = Happy

Face it, the meaning of things change over time. Yes, Santa Claus originally meant St. Nicolas and had Christian connotations. That's not the reality today though.

[mongo]

39. Santa's origins are in the God Woden

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

[BoneDaddy]

59. So what?

This is ridiculous. pissing on little kids because some people don't have a fucking life is ridiculous.

If this is the kind of world some people are proposing, I don't want it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. Then Home School your kids. This is a PUBLIC SCHOOL we're talking about. Want prayers next?

:wtf:

How do you think it makes kids who celebrate Kwanzaa and Chanukkah feel when all their little Christian friends are celebrating THEIR holiday while THEY sit and watch? It's not right. THEIR parents pay taxes for that school too...not just Christians. You either INCLUDE EVERYONE or celebrate the holiday at home, in a church or in a community center.

[China_cat]

98. Well....

I guess a Santa menorah says something

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/experiments/santa-menorah/

[Dorian Gray]

69. Yes and no...

Santa has evolved so far away from St. Nikolas that he doesn't resemble the Christian Saint whatsoever. St. Nikolas certainly didn't live in the North Pole.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Santa is not secular

He comes from the Christian Christmas.

[Mythsaje]

18. These days he's little more than a commercial icon...n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. That's true but you have to consider his historical significance

It is amazing how many families don't do Christmas. I found that out when more and more of my students didn't know Santa Claus and told me he had never come to their house. That is why I didn't protest when my school district said no more Christmas in our schools.

[mongo]

40. Yeah, and I'm sure that Mistletoe, Christmas trees, gift giving, holly

and the yule log are all "Christian" traditions too :crazy:

Do you really think that "Shepards watch their flock by night", in December?

Happy Mithris!

[gravity]

78. I agree

I think this is going too far. Santa doesn't have really anything to do with christianity or religion in general. He is just as religious as the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. People don't worship him or treat him like a religious figure, well except for little kids wanting gifts :)

[Eric J in MN]

86. I don't. Santa Claus is associated with a Christian holiday,

...not a secular holiday.

[Mythsaje]

91. Or a commercial holiday...

Santa is a commercial icon, not a religious one...

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I agree

[Nederland]

13. The lady is wrong.

Santa is NOT a religious icon.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. St. Nicholas represents the Christian Holiday...CHRISTMAS.

You CANNOT celebrate CHRSTMAS in a PUBLIC school....unless you also celebrate other's religious holidays. Wiccans pay taxes for the schools, Jews pay taxes for the schools and African Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa also pay taxes for public schools. You cannot alienate the other religions just to celebrate yours.

[Nederland]

21. Oh please

Santa represents the crass commercialism that Christmas has become. Die hard religious Christians despise the notion of Santa Claus for this very reason.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. If they despise him so much then what's the big deal of having a "Breakfast with Frosty" instead?

:shrug: Why is this even an issue then? He may represent crass commercialism, but he IS St. Nicholas and represents CHRISTMAS. You either celebrate all holidays or none or do it in a secular fashion so ALL the students of the PUBLIC SCHOOL can participate.

[Nederland]

33. Tell you what

After we get universal health care and eliminate povery we can talk about banning Santa Claus.

Deal?

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. No one is saying "ban Santa" just ban Santa in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I agree though, there's more important things to worry about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. But historically he is part of the Christian celebration

The conservative Jews I know don't teach their kids about Santa Claus. Neither do the Muslims I know. He is definitely a Christian symbol.

[mongo]

42. Wiccans celebrate Yule

and most would have no problem with a depiction of Santa (as Woden, or the Holly King) Yule trees (although you have to save them for your Birdget bonfire on 2/2), and all the other modern trappings.

[phylny]

57. My principal in a Virginia elementary school was Jewish, and she loved

the Breakfast with Santa. Why? It brought LOTS of money into the school as a fundraiser.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but I'm saying that it's common. I know lots of families around here who are Jewish but put up a Christmas tree. Odd, but who cares?

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. I know that. We use to put up a tree too, but this is about Public Schools,

not what we do in our homes. I was Christian, my husband is Jewish and our son was being raised a Jew. We celebrated BOTH holidays. We had a tree and a Menorah. I have since converted and we don't have a tree anymore. I don't give 2 hoots what people do in their homes. I do care about making other children feel left out/different because Christians want to celebrate their holiday in our Public Schools. It's just not right. This has ALWAYS been my opinion on this, even when I was a Christian.

[Dorian Gray]

67. What's the difference between

Santa and Frosty? Neither are a religious figure.

[aquaman]

6. What a dumb ass.....

Santa, the poster child of discrimination.

:sarcasm:

[Democrat 4 Ever]

15. Wonder how the repugs will spin this to make it Howard Dean's fault? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. This isn't about discrimination

It is just the opposite. It is about being tolerant of all, even the kids who don't celebrate Christmas.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. We can't do Christmas in our school district anymore either

I don't see it as a war on Christmas but a reflection of the changing population. We are a large urban district and we have a lot of non-Christian students. As a publicly funded school district, our legal dept decided it was a violation of the separation of church and state to celebrate Christmas. I think they are being smart since fighting a lawsuit would be awfully expensive. And the interesting thing is that no parents have complained since this policy was put into place.

Yes it is disappointing. I used to bring a tree to school and put it in my classroom. I asked my kids to bring gloves and mittens to decorate the tree and I would then donate them to a local org that collected them for needy kids. I still ask the kids to bring the mittens, I just don't hang them on a Christmas tree.

We really do need to be tolerant and represent all, as the quoted article states. No one is taking Christmas away from kids who still celebrate it. It just isn't done at school anymore.

[Roland99]

17. Extreme Political Correctness. What a stupid $#%$^

She needs to be hit upside the head with a cluestick.

[spoony]

49. She's quite popular with some here.

Apparently throwing tradition, even Santa (because, of course, Santa is such a holy and revered symbol of Christianity), is a twisted sort of progress to some.

[Roland99]

65. Like I've said for a long time, Political Correctness is the bane of the left.

(sigh)

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Is the "William Donohue" who wrote this article the same guy:

as this?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200412210001

Donohue uses his appearances primarily to attack gays and progressives. He has referred to the "gay death style," remarked, "God forbid we'd run out of little gay kids," claimed that Senator John Kerry "never found an abortion he couldn't justify," and claimed that "Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular ... Hollywood likes anal sex."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Donohue


Wow. No agenda there. :eyes: If I had to guess, I'd wager this story is bullshit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. YES! That's the one.

:(

[The Straight Story]

32. Hell if I know - but I did include a secondary source (nt)

[enki23]

25. wonder how donohue deliberately misconstrued *this* one

..

[seabeyond]

29. christian coalition is the one to ban santa, they think it is wrong to use santa

cause it takes away from jesus. our christian private couldnt do easter bunny or santa. so i wonder if it really is about representitive of christian holiday or if it isnt one of these religious people wanting santa out because they are really really opposed to their children getting the whole santa reindeer thing at this time

[mongo]

44. I think you hit the nail on the head

A fundie nutcase out to cause trouble.

[underpants]

30. I'd bet $20 our local talk radio nut will have this as his topic on the drive home

I will also bet $100 that they complaint came from someone on THAT side of this BS War on Christmas.

[China_cat]

31. Oh barf.

[Limelight]

34. If you so object to the religion the holiday came from...

Then don't participate! It's Christmas... let me put it another way. It's CHRISTmas. It's a celebration of the birth of Jesus, the son of God if you believe in that sort of thing (and I do). You give people gifts because the 3 wise men brought Jesus presents on his birth day. The tree represents the heavens/the sky, the lights representign the stars and the angels that came to proclaim his birth and the star at the top is the north star heralding his birth.

Frankly it seems there are some folks out there who need to stop celebrating Christmas all together as they seem to have no clue what it is they're actually doing. Society as a whole can water it down into that nifty PC, "Spend time with the people you love and show them how much you care" or have retailers use it as an exercise in promoting a good few weeks to try and boost the economy every year, but neither of those are the center of the day.

I don't know what's more annoying. Trying to tolerate this society as a whole watering down the actual meaning of Christmas (no, spending time with family ain't the meaning, simply a desirable effect of celebrating the real meaning) or these jackasses giving Bill O'Reilly another cherry picked talking point.

[earth mom]

37. No-what is worse is you coming on DU insisting every one look at it YOUR way

and do it YOUR way. Now that's annoying. And another thing. Exactly who made you in charge of how people want to celebrate or define a holiday? Here's a clue: NO ONE. :eyes:

[Limelight]

43. No, here's a clue..

I didn't insist anyone look at it from my point of view I simply expressed my point of view (as I've been told someplace that I have a right to do so). You (or anyone one else)is as free to disagree with me as I am to disagree with you. I'm simply asking a question... if people have such disdain for the religion that spawned a holiday then how hypocritical is it for those same people to be celebrating it? If I disagree with something I generally choose not to participate in it.

And by the by, I didn't make up the definition. Though I can't make anyone celebrate in the way or for the reasons it was created the definition of that holiday was defined when it was created. Christmas. You'd think that'd be obvious.:eyes:

[Beaverhausen]

77. NEWSFLASH- Christmas was stolen from the Pagans

http://paganwiccan.about.com/cs/aboutyule/a/paganxmas.htm

[spoony]

47. Oh, the bloody irony

If I weren't so polite, I'd call it hypocrisy. To applaud shutting down a particular celebration, and then chiding someone and saying "who made you in charge of how people celebrate"...oh, brother.

[Richard Steele]

45. Yes, that Holiday is for Christians ONLY!

They stole it fair and square; how DARE anyone else
have their own annoying opinions about it?

:eyes:

[mongo]

46. See my post above

If you're celebrating "the birth of Jesus" with a tree and Santa and gifts and lights you might as well be building a Stonehenge in your den.

Happy Mithris!

HE IS THE SUN GOD! HE IS THE ONE GOD! RA! RA! RA!

[spoony]

48. Is the official sport of DU pissing on other people's holidays?

What the hell is wrong with some of you? Childishly pointing at people celebrating Christmas and going, "na na you and Ra, sitting in a tree!" What do you care what people celebrate or how, other than you dislike them so much?

[Richard Steele]

51. Seems our new friend "Limelight" is the one DICTATING how to celebrate.

Nonsense like that is just naturally gonna attract some attention, y'know?

[spoony]

60. No, people who actually shut things down

are the ones dictating how people may celebrate. Limelight, unless he's on some city council somewhere, just has his opinion like any of us. The woman in the OP article, THAT'S someone dictating, in every sense of the word.

[Richard Steele]

62. Ah, perhaps I misunderstood. I agree that the Anonymous Woman is an idjit.

And I don't understand WHY those folks are allowing
a single loony SantaPhobe to dictate terms to them.

Sounds to me like their annual celebration, as described,
meets every legal standard of a non-denominational
public event. No lone malcontent's anonymous opinion
should override well-established, court-tested public policy.

[mongo]

99. Did you read the post I was responding too?

It's CHRISTmas. It's a celebration of the birth of Jesus, the son of God if you believe in that sort of thing (and I do). You give people gifts because the 3 wise men brought Jesus presents on his birth day. The tree represents the heavens/the sky, the lights representign the stars and the angels that came to proclaim his birth and the star at the top is the north star heralding his birth.

Frankly it seems there are some folks out there who need to stop celebrating Christmas all together as they seem to have no clue what it is they're actually doing.

Besides the star on the top of the tree, limelight has NO FUCKING CLUE about the origins of the traditions that he's celebrating, yet tells everyone else they don't have a clue.

[Limelight]

50. Actually you need to check my post...

As to what the trees, lights and gifts represent.

[Richard Steele]

53. I'd rather check a HISTORY BOOK. Seems most of them disagree with your post.

[Mythsaje]

80. LOL

Pagan much?

I recognize that chant.

[mongo]

100. Blessed be! N/T

[mongo]

36. How about "Breakfast with Mr. Hanky"?

[jmowreader]

72. I would go to that!

Because Mister Hankey doesn't care what faith you are!

Oh man, whichever one of them came up with THAT symbol of a nondenominational holiday celebration is going to burn in Hell for sure.

[SoCalDem]

38. Does it ever occur to the organizers of this type of event?..

If ONE person, or an obviously "staged" protest to a long-standing event like this (innocent fun for kids), objects, why don't they juts call a press conference and say.

"The event will continue, AS IS, because the kids like it, and there's no harm in holding it, and so we will".,

Then calmly advise people who feel that Santa is "evil", to keep THEIR OWN kids at home ..


Simple!

[DemoDemoCratCrat]

41. Amen!

Oops.

Seriously, far too much is being made of the "significance" of Santa. This is a fundraising event. If you want to raise lots of funds, you give the kids what they want, which in this case is Santa Clause.

[phylny]

54. A Festivus for the rest of us!

Warwick is two towns south of me, a tiny little hamlet in Orange County, which has been historically red. There are many different faiths all throughout the county, including a large Jewish population.

Back in the day, I grew up on Long Island, and we sang Christmas songs in school(though not religious, but of the "Frosty the Snowman" variety) and Hanukkah songs. I guess way back then, we as kids and our parents didn't really care about it.

I'm a Christian, and Santa has as much to do with my religion as the Easter Bunny does (as in, nothing). He is not a religious icon. If someone wants to complain and stop it, let them. Perhaps the PTA should find a church or rent a hall so they can fundraise in peace.

So, they have Frosty and Santa, so all they need is a Holiday Armadillo. Anyone remember that? ;)

[Ignacio Upton]

85. Why are Orange and Putnam so red?

I swear, driving up from my blue town in northern Westchester, I feel like I'm in Freeper country in only 20 minutes (taking 684, of course.)

[LSK]

56. now O'Lielly has material for 2 weeks

[BoneDaddy]

58. This is ridiculous

I totally support the separation of church and state and don't think that preaching Christianity or shoving it down anyone's throat in a public institution is constitutional, but this kind of crap needs to stop.

[spoony]

61. Right, It doesn't help anyone

It gives guys like O'reilly and Limbaugh (David or Rush, or both) fodder and bums a bunch of kids out, and that's about it.

[dogday]

64. I am so sick of people interfering in other people's lives

These people need to get a life and stop bitching and complaining about these stupid things....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Such A Shame There Are Such Over-Zealous Morons In This World That Ruin It For Everybody.

What a dumb blankety blank. This is just so friggin stupid.

Let the kids have their santa for God's sake.

[The Straight Story]

73. I would find it more offensive not to have the holiday icon there myself

You can never ever please everyone.

It's like Hanukkah without the dreidel or halloween without dressing up.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Frankly, this story sounds like Bullshit.

Look at the source. William Donohue? Come on. And given the utterly manufactured nature of most of this "war on Christmas" crap, with the pretend victimization, the deliberately generated outrage and the FOX News, "15 minute hate" vibe of the whole thing, I would wager that the "anonymous individual" who complained is a right-wing fundy with an axe to grind.

And what better way to get this years "Bash The Secular Liberals in the name of the Prince of Peace" season going than to start a bitch-a-thon about the mean ol' atheists who are yanking santa away from wailing tots? :eyes:

Or, maybe the complaint was genuine, but it still came from a hard-core right wing Christian. I'm an atheist, my wife is Jewish, and NEITHER of us have as much of a problem with Santa as some of the fundies do.

[The Straight Story]

75. Did you check out the secondary source?

I made sure to put two in there :)

[Warren DeMontague]

76. I did. It still sounds like bullshit.

But, whatever. If the goal was to get a great deal of moaning and gnashing of teeth over how the dreaded, (albeit imaginary) "war on Christmas" has gone "too far", mission accomplished. :patriot: :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

82. Actually the war on christmas part was tongue in cheek, see my other thread :)

for more info :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2830407

[Eric J in MN]

87. They can have Santa Claus in shopping malls and

...other private places. Santa Claus doesn't belong at taxpayer funded event, unless they also honor other religions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. Blah Blah Blah Give Me A Break.

Some things are just too petty to fight over. Let them have their damn Santa Claus. Ain't gonna affect your life any. Sheesh.

(I can't stand petty gripes based on technicality. Life's too damn short.)

[Warren DeMontague]

103. What part of "unless they honor other religions" don't you get?

Why should the Jewish kids feel excluded, for instance? You want to talk about "petty", the central complaint (if you can call it that) in this thread is, "To make the celebration more inclusive, We had to CHANGE THE NAME OF THE EVENT and add Frosty the snowman" (please note that no one took away anything)

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Um, does everyone realize that, the froth coming out of Wm. Donohue's mouth notwithstanding...

SANTA WAS NOT REMOVED FROM THIS EVENT?

Let me repeat that, because Donohue's opinion piece, posted by the OP (who apparently didn't realize that he was effectively giving DU airtime to an Ann Coulter or Michael Savage equivalent) very cleverly skirts around the facts of the case to whip up maximum anger. To wit:

"Called "Breakfast with Santa," it draws hundreds of kids on a Saturday, all of whom come voluntarily. But because one anonymous bigot objected this year - citing religious discrimination - the event was reworked by school lawyers: there will now be a "Winter Wonderland Breakfast."

Moreover, Santa will now have a partner: Frosty the Snowman has been ordered to join him.

The bigot, of course, wants no compromise and wants Santa removed altogether.

According to Darlene Baratto, who is in charge of the event, "We have a beautiful background people can have a picture in front of. That wasn't good enough. We changed the name, colors, the background. Nothing made her happy. She was not open to anything. We'll have 300 or so kids who are disappointed."

Hmmm. She's a "bigot", right? After all, who is more qualified to spot a bigot than William "Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular." Donohue?

But I digress. Lets look at what ACTUALLY happened with this deal:

Last Friday morning, Greenhall consulted with the lawyers yet again, proposing the compromise that Frosty the Snowman would appear at the event as well as Santa. The lawyers agreed that having Frosty and Santa would make the event more inclusive.

***

Diane Tomko, Sanfordville’s PTA president, said she is happy with the compromise reached. The breakfast will take place and more people will be included.

“I am happy that because parents were willing to research the issues and share their information and opinions so openly and honestly, and our principal and superintendent were willing to listen and reconsider, our children will now have the opportunity to have twice as much magical fun rather than none at all this year at the Winter Wonderland Breakfast.

So, as near as I can figure, the breakfast is going ahead, Santa is going to be there.. what happened? They added Frosty the Snowman and they changed the name of the thing. THAT'S IT.

I'm sorry, but big fucking deal. So maybe someone can explain why Bill Donohue's head is exploding? Oh, yeah, that's right. Manufactured outrage and a chance to grind his axe against those pesky, Christian-persecutin' "secular liberals". Tis the season, I guess. Merry ****ing Christmas.

[The Straight Story]

104. Maybe because of these things:

We have one person complaining about:

Still, members of the PTA were adamant that the event, which is scheduled for Dec. 9, is a success in large part because of Santa. And, since the event is on a Saturday and attendance is optional, no one is being discriminated against. Santa is the big draw, said Darlene Baratto, chair of the event. Eliminating his appearance would take away what many kids come for.

“We do things to raise money for our kids,” said Baratto. “No one has to go to anything yet they still enjoy the fruits of the events. The draw for the fundraiser is Santa, a picture with Santa. We have a beautiful background people can have a picture in front of. That wasn’t good enough. We changed the name, colors, the background. Nothing made her happy. She was not open to anything. We’ll have 300 or so kids who are disappointed.”

And comments like this:

“I look forward to sponsoring an event that is within the law and inclusive of all,” said the parent. “This is not an argument about religion; it is about the law of our land. Discrimination is simply detestable.”

The day after the PTA meeting, the parent spoke with The Warwick Advertiser.

“This is a matter of following the law of our country,” she said. “It is sad that no one ever questioned this event before this.”

She said she suggested having a winter party, no Santa, but Frosty, making snowmen, snowflakes, snow cones — something that would include every child.

“It could have been a wonderful, new tradition,” she said.

-----
Frosty?

"Hocus brings Santa Claus (voiced by Paul Frees) to the greenhouse only to find Karen in tears and Frosty melted on the floor. Santa explains to Karen that Frosty is made from Christmas snow, and that he can never completely melt away."

So he is made of Christmas snow, and has a magical hat (magic and religion).

Frosty offends me and I don't think he should be there either. Those kids will be sucked into a world of mysticism in 5 seconds flat if they see frosty and his magic hat.

[Akoto]

83. Look, I'm all for separation, but ...

It's frickin' Santa Claus.

Most kids, I would wager, don't associate him with Jesus and the Bible. They don't have these things beamed into their heads just because Santa has breakfast with them.

I can only speak for myself, but I grew up with Santa Claus in my life, and I ended up becoming a Buddhist. I always thought of Santa as this big, friendly guy in a red suit who brought me toys and liked cookies.

Let the kids have a little fun. It's just fantasy, and most of them will come to think he doesn't even exist after a few years.

[Eric J in MN]

88. They associate him with Christmas. NT

NT

[Leftist78]

84. Does anybody ever get the feeling...

that we're being suckered. None of this matters in the least. This stupid fight over whether we should allow public space displays of Christmas is the most pointless debate ever. I'm not a Christian, but most of my family is and they celebrate Christmas. I go along with it and exchange gifts, and in general it's a pretty secular occasion. I know that there are people who don't celebrate Christmas, and in fact celebrate some other holiday at this time of year or celebrate none at all, but what the hell does it matter if they see Santa at their school? What's more, why would we be dumb enough to fight about it?

The problem with this thing is that every time we engage in some kind of fight about it, we play right into the hands of the conservatives who want to keep stupid pointless debates like this at the forefront of the conversation in America. They know that most of America is appalled at the idea that a group of people would want to stop some kids from having breakfast with Santa, and when we argue about something like this that doesn't matter that much in the first place we make ourselves look like what they say we are: a bunch of godless secularists that want to outlaw their religious beliefs.

The real aim of conservatives is more sinister though. When we engage them in this manufactured spectacle they call the "War on Christmas", we allow them to distract the public from real issues like Iraq, and the host of other things in America where we're strongest. Engaging in this secularism vs. religion plays right into the right's hands. Wake up people!!! :grr:

[kevinbgoode]

90. Hmm...the "bigot" sounds like some rightwing religious plant

you know, someone paid to create a "scene" in order to give the wingnuts some kind of hysteria over the faux "war on Christmas." I mean, come on - who in their right mind would object to Santa Claus and want it replaced by Frosty alone? Hahaha. . .especially since Santa isn't some religious icon, is he? I mean, he IS a saint, but. . .does that make him a tool of the religious Right now too?

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Remember the guy who used to take his kids to Kerry rallies & hold up a Bush sign

and then his two oldest boys would pretend to be "Union Thugs" and rip the sign up? And for the piece de resistance, they'd make sure to get a picture of dad with the little girl holding the torn Bush sign and crying.

:eyes:

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

102. You're referring to Phil Parlock. I remember the "so-called" furor over

that incident in 2004. Complete and utter set up.

In fact when Barbra Streisand got heckled a few weeks ago in NYC, my first thought was: "Gee, I guess Phil got a ticket for her concert".

As for Mr. Donohue, he is what is referred to in my Irish-American Roman Catholic family as one of these: "a typical Communion rail hugging hypocrite". Bill O'Lielly and Sean Insannity both fit this description as well. :puke: :puke: :puke:

[spoony]

101. That'd make half the people in this thread "plants" as well n/t

[cynatnite]

94. Christmas is a christian holiday n/t

[kevinbgoode]

95. Not in my house

It is the celebration of love. And there is nothing con-servative Christian religiously correct about love.

[LittleClarkie]

97. Santa's about as religious as the Easter Bunny. Saint Nick is a separate fellow

Santa's barely recognizable as the original person who's traditions are supposed to have inspired the gift giving of Christmas.

But one thing I don't understand. They wouldn't be having any celebration at all if it weren't Christmas time. So would she just prefer they call the whole thing off?