what's the matter with Afghanistani men???

[donsu]

Disembowelled, then torn apart: The price of daring to teach girls

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2023831.ece




The gunmen came at night to drag Mohammed Halim away from his home, in front of his crying children and his wife begging for mercy.

The 46-year-old schoolteacher tried to reassure his family that he would return safely. But his life was over, he was part-disembowelled and then torn apart with his arms and legs tied to motorbikes, the remains put on display as a warning to others against defying Taliban orders to stop educating girls.

Mr Halim was one of four teachers killed in rapid succession by the Islamists at Ghazni, a strategic point on the routes from Kabul to the south and east which has become the scene of fierce clashes between the Taliban and US and Afghan forces.
-snip-
---------------------------------------


what's the matter with the race of men for allowing the Taliban men to do this??

don't you love your daughters??

[slackmaster]

1. Stop being so culturally insensitive, donsu

:argh:

[donsu]

3. this is nothing to joke about

nt

[blm]

54. Agree - it's a battle Feminist Majority Foundation took on in 96 and few would

listen to our entreaties for the next few years on behalf of the Afghani women who were systematically losing all place in Afghani society while the Taliban were taking over town by town.

We did finally get Clinton to impose sanctions but that was about it.


While Rush and the RW yakkers spent thousands of hours of broadcast time talking about Monica Lewinsky and Whitewater nonstories, the 'feminazis' were scraping for time to discuss the widening problem of the growing Taliban movement.

Wonderful, eh?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

62. And now some of those RW howler monkeys

Are accusing American feminists of ignoring the plight of Afghani women until recently. Huh?!?! :banghead:

Well yeah, because if they were too busy sniffing Clinton's drawers to pay attention to anything else, it must not have happened.

[951-Riverside]

15. We must understand and respect all cultures.

:argh:

[Clark2008]

This is NOT the same as a woman CHOOSING to cover in a FREE society.

I don't think anyone's arguing that maiming, killing and mutilating people is proper CULTURE.

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

104. No, but we must respect everyone's right over their own body.

Which was certainly not the case here.

[bloom]

2. Another example of the world going to hell. nt

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. I wonder what the average age of the people there is

In many wartorn and impoverished countries, the lifespan is so low that the majority of the population is under 25. So that means that most of the people there have pretty much grown up under the Taliban and it will be very difficult to change their views.

But the fact that so many people there are resisting, even at the risk of their lives, is heartening and a testament to the innate human desire to live freely. At least that's what I believe. I do not think that subservience and submission come naturally to any human being. It always has to be imposed and vigorously enforced by the dominant group. You can see this throughout history with enslaved and oppressed people.

Male domination of females is the oldest, and most entrenched form. That is why it continues the world over and apologists will say "well it's just their culture" and even convince themselves that the women accept it and even like it. Nothing is going to change until the world gets it through its collective head that submission, subservience, and passivity are NOT the natural condition of women, or anyone.

[DavidDvorkin]

6. The victim was a man

Who was trying to do the right thing. That seems to be overlooked in some of the posts here.

(And the adjective is "Afghan", not "Afghanistani".)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. No one is overlooking it and I guess we forgot the expected disclaimer

"We don't mean ALL men, just SOME men because we know most of you are just WONDERFUL and that must be pointed out repeatedly lest we come off like icky male-bashing harpies or something."

Because, you know, the egos of men reading discussion boards are of the utmost importance to any discussion, even one that involves the abuse, torture, and murder of women AND men in order to maintain a repressive misogynistic system like the Taliban. Clearly some of you poor darlings are incapable of distinguishing context or making EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU BY DEFAULT, so we will try ever so hard not to forget that and do a better job of prioritizing your feelings in the future.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PVnRT]

23. So, in other words, stop being hypersensitive?

I seem to recall some people in the Lounge getting very angry about being told that. I guess respect shall only be extended to certain groups and not to others.

[bloom]

24. Thanks for pointing that out to people.

Some people are bound not to get it. :crazy:

[MrCoffee]

26. "the race of men" sounds like ALL men to me.

[zreosumgame]

28. so you would be OK if some guy said all women are

violence-prone murderous harpies like Margret Thatcher?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. Well if the situation was at all comparable

If there were cultures all over the globe where men were being systematically oppressed by women. If men were routinely the victims of rape, abuse, and torture at the hands of women then maybe I would. Are there individual women who are awful? Yes. But women like Thatcher act as part of an entrenched patriarchy and military industrial complex so her being a woman is almost irrelevant. Same with Condi.

[EstimatedProphet]

94. Obfuscation

It doesn't matter one whit that there are patriarchial cultures all over the globe that abuse women. Every single man on the globe could be sexist, and I still wouldn't be if I'm not.

"The race of men" is a statement saying that the guilt is male, not people that are in charge. The statement says that males are flawed and inherently sexist and misogynistic as a sex-linked trait. It's bullshit and trying to justify it just confuses the situation.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

121. Patriarchy is inherently sexist and misogynist

Individual men, and women, may or may not be those things but it's nothing they were born with. As a feminist, I soundly reject essentialist notions of behavior based on biology. There are some feminists who espouse something known as "difference" feminism - wherein women are seen to be naturally more nurturing and less aggressive. But many of us disagree with that, due to it being based on dubious scientific evidence, much like patriarchal assertions of women's essential nature.

I can't speak for the OP, but I believe that it is CULTURE that creates the Taliban, not genetics.

[jgraz]

30. Way to avoid coming off as some "icky male-bashing harpy"

Mission Accomplished!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. But gosh, I said most of you are wonderful

*sigh*

Guess some folks are never satisfied. :eyes:

[MrCoffee]

53. oh please.

keep fanning the flames.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. This poster's got a history...

of promoting the idea of some kind of "race" war between women and men.

[Kelly Rupert]

38. Personally, I'd rather make love, not war. n/t

[donsu]

42. true and true

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. flamebait, basically.

[donsu]

49. watering your flamebait

nt

[mondo joe]

69. You ignore the fact that men and women are responsible for their

culture.

[VelmaD]

70. Too fuckin' right

This deserves to be copied and pasted into just about every thread we ever have on DU that involves women's issues because the same cast of characters always show up to whine about how we're bashing all men and just HAVE to make it all about themselves. :eyes:

[MrCoffee]

80. explain how "the race of men" does not apply to all men?

can one be a man and not of "the race of men"?

[Marie26]

115. What was your opinion of the article?

Why do you think the Taliban did this? Why don't they want girls to be educated? How should the world react? Since you're on the thread & commentating, I am curious if you have any thoughts about these legitimate issues that the article raises.

[MrCoffee]

117. My opinon of the article...

What happened to that poor man, and what continues to happen to those who attempt to change things for the better in Afghanistan, is appalling. I would wager that everyone who is commenting in this thread feels the same way. I have a great many thoughts about the legitimate issues raised in the article, and you and I probably agree on 99% of them.

But that sidesteps the issue raised by the OP, which is to blame "the race of men" for the murder of this man. I can't explain why the Taliban did this, or why they don't want girls to be educated; i'm not in the Taliban. It's sick and vicious and every kind of wrong. But the OP seems to have no problem lumping me in with the Taliban and those who did this.

Do you agree with the OP that "the race of men" is to blame for this?

[musette_sf]

134. you are sadly correct, ma'am

and the same cast of characters would never dare to diminish, in a likewise manner, a racial or ethnic discrimination issue.

throughout recorded history, the group called "woman" has overall suffered far more discrimination and oppression than any other ethnic or racial group. women didn't count at all as free citizens in our own country, until the early 20th century. and women STILL have not been granted equal rights in the Constitution of the US, 30 years after the initial initiative was brought to Congress.

how would the same cast of characters feel, if the land in which they professed citizenship would consistently refuse to accord the rights of full citizenship and equality to them?

[Greyhound]

73. We need a system to recommend replies. Thank you, that is just so...

accurate!:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Here's your decoder ring.

if rich atheletes like OJ get richer by describing precisely how he didn't kill his wife, we need to talk about the inherently murderous nature of men.

if talibani fundamentalists kill a male teacher who defied a religious edict against educating girls, we need to talk about the morally inferior "male race"

if a mom microwaves or drowns her baby(ies), we need to talk about how dads and the male-dominated legal and medical fields systematically and intentionally ignore the widespread phenomenon of pospartum psychosis.

Don't stray from the script, you don't want to be an oppressor.
:sarcasm:

[aquart]

7. Taliban men. Not good husband material.

Fundamentalists suck.

[MrCoffee]

8. clearly they hate women...oh wait, the teacher was a man.

never mind.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. See my post #17. Applies to you as well. n/t

[uppityperson]

124. too funny

Post#17 says "see my post #17". :crazy:

[ContraBass Black]

142. Huh?

:wtf:

[blm]

105. a man teaching WOMEN - if they weren't suppressing women, it wouldn't have

become a crime would it?

[warrens]

9. There's a reason 91 percent of America favored invading Afghanistan

Most wanted revenge for 911, which was fine. Many, like me, wanted to see the Taliban destroyed. Smirky needed him oil more, you betcha, and typically didn't finish the job.

The Taliban are scum, pure and simple, and should be eradicated.

[heidler1]

67. My cynical analysis is: Bush was willing to sacrifice mostly male

troops to show his willingness to kill off other men who want guaranteed superiority over women. Thus getting women to vote for him and support his war. People going along with stupid ideas, over wishful thinking, is a very big part of the problem. Many men hate uppity women who are actually intelligently superior, especially the men who are inferior. Hell face it, many men even hate other men who are intelligently superior. They use to call them eggheads now they're called liberals. IMO the Bush game plan was to become ultra popular pretending to protect the world by killing off designated terrorists and the people fell for it for a while. Finally the list of potential terrorists got so long that even the dumbest could see it had backfired.

This is not a race issue it is a gender issue.

[jmatthan]

10. What is the difference between these men

What is the difference between these men and those who allow their country's army to drop cluster bombs, depleted uranium, kill and maim tens of thousands innocent people, apply sanctions that kill a million children and have a Secretary of State that that is quite OK, or have their men and women torture innocent men, women and children, or kidnap people and keep them in custody without any rights whatsoever, etc., etc.

It is all a question of perspective?

When "your" side does it - is it OK and nothing to protest about?

When the other side does it - is it barbaric?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Well said.

[Marie26]

29. Are you saying this isn't barbaric?

Cultural relativism sucks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. It's cultural relativism...

to say that we're any better.

[Marie26]

47. Uh, no. Perhaps a definition would help you out?

"Cultural relativism - the concept that the importance of a particular cultural idea varies from one society or societal subgroup to another, the view that ethical and moral standards are relative to what a particular society or culture believes to be good/bad, right/wrong."

http://dictionary.reference.com/wnmde/

Cultural relativism insists that we cannot state & impose our own cultural values upon another - even, sometimes, including basic values such as human rights, freedom, or women's rights. The cultural relativists will tend to spring up here at DU when some article talks about how women are being oppressed/enslaved, etc. in another country. "But that's their culture," they'll insist. "Are we really any better? What about Bush's wars?" etc. etc. The post above was typical. Who's talking about Bush, or Iraq, or oil here? No one. Yet it's brought up as an attempt to shift the topic away from the obvious abuses by the Taliban. I can respect a real cultural relativist, but not one who selectively uses it as a dodge & an excuse to avoid discussing women's rights. Yeah, when it comes to women's rights, we are better than the Taliban. Deal. Saying that we are better is NOT cultural relativism. It is the exact opposite.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. No, it's cultural relativism.

To say it's total barbarism when Afghanis kill Afghanis and "collateral damage" when Americans do it is a perfect example of cultural relativism. The OP was saying there's something wrong with "those people" and thus precluding Americans.

[Marie26]

57. Did you read the definition?

Did you understand it? WHO at DU is saying that it's not barbaric to kill innocent Afghans? WHO at DU is arguing that the US killing civilians is just "collateral damage"? WHO is saying that it's OK for Americans to kill Afghans, but not OK for Afghans to kill Afghans? *looking around, re-reading thread, tapping foot* Oh, that's right. NO ONE. So what is the relevance of this? It's simply a dodge, simply an attempt to say "look over there!" so people don't see the abuses in front of them. I guess the OP could have included "also what's wrong w/the US, Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia, and all civilizations who have ever done something wrong," to satisfy you, but that seems a bit broad & unnecessary. The subject here is whether what the Taliban did was wrong. That has little to nothing to do w/whether Bush, or the US, or China is wrong. If people are unable to discuss the subject at hand w/o attempts to distract, it makes me think that they really don't wish to face or discuss the issue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Yes, and we're agreeing on the definition.

Did you not read where I mentioned the OP precludes the US?

"What's the matter with Afghanistan men," is an intrinsically racist, nationalistic comment. Not to mention sexist.

[Marie26]

75. OK then.

First, it's not nationalistic to say something's bad in some other country. That's another mistake in your use of language. Nationalism is the conviction that your own country is better - and the OP makes no comparisons w/America (or Sudan, or the 300 other countries "precluded" from the headline). The OP's headline could be racist, or sexist, because the terms are broad & over-generalized. As people have said, of course not all men are this way, or all Afghans, obviously. So this OP was unnecessarily inflammatory - maybe "Afghan society", or "Taliban" would be better descriptors. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a valid point here. Are you truly saying there isn't something wrong w/the Taliban, or Afghan society? Any society where people are drawn & quartered for teaching girls has some issues. So what are those issues? Why do fundamentalists tend to oppress women? Why is this happening in Afghanistan? These are very valid questions, that are lost as people prefer to flame about how mean the OP is being to men.

[VelmaD]

77. your last sentence pretty much sums up...

every conversation we ever try to have in GD aout women's issues, "These are very valid questions, that are lost as people prefer to flame about how mean the OP is being to men." No matter how heinous the behavior toward women...be it rape, murder, FGM, whatever...there are certain posters who will make it about themselves and about men's feelings EVERY single time. That many, if not most, of the women on the planet suffer at the hands of men means nothing...all that matters is that women posting on DU are mean to men and hurt their feelings.

[Marie26]

79. Sadly,

I have reached the conclusion that for most men, it is all about them. This is a conclusion based not just on DU, but real life. I think women are taught to always think about & consider the feelings of others first (sometimes to our detriment), while men are taught to consider their own feeling first. And this, in itself, is an expression of a patriarchal society, in which men have privileges that they are not even aware of; much as whites have privileges in this country that they are not even aware of. Yet when those unspoken privileges are challenged, the challengers are attacked. In this way, I believe the "gender wars" at DU are, in a way, about the same thing as the Taliban fights in Afghanistan. It's the defense of the traditional power structure & patriarchical privileges against any challenges. Flame away.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. ...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Marie26]

102. Thanks for the calm,

respectful expression of your position on this issue. The maturity, thoughtfulness, and insight is greatly appreciated. Also, thank you for proving my point. :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

107. You're Welcome. I Found Your Joke Really Funny. Thanks For The Laugh.

After a rough week, I needed some hearty humor. :)

[Marie26]

109. But yet can't explain

why it's so funny, what you're laughing at, or what the point of the post was. It's just an attempt to demean & dismiss, for the sake of demeaning & dismissing. And why would you feel a need to lash out in that fashion? Hmmmm.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. Sure I Could. The Absurdity Within It Was Obvious. But Rather Than

type something again and waste my time, the following post of mine in response to another absurd post is fitting enough:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2840882&mesg_id=2842196

[Marie26]

114. What is your opinion on the actual article?

Since you're such a strong advocate against sexism and intolerance, you must be horrified by what happened, correct? Why do you believe that this happened in Afganistan? Why is the Taliban so against teaching girls, and so obsessed w/controlling women? Why is it that so many religious groups seem to have a common thread of sexism and intolerance against women? How should the world react to these sorts of atrocities? Any thoughts on this topic?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. What Do You Think My Opinion Is? Silly Question.

Obviously I, as would anyone else, find the acts of the taliban to be disgraceful. To ask in such a way as if that is up for debate is ridiculous.

As far as why they do it it is because they are Islamic extremists who believe their religion justifies their actions. And it isn't just about controlling women. They are extreme and strict in far more ways than just how they treat women. It is the extreme interpretation of that religion that is the cause, as they believe in it so strongly that they resort to whatever tactics they deem necessary to adhere to what they believe is Godly.

But stop asking every man in here what they think about the article, as if we don't agree wholeheartedly that the actions of the taliban are deplorable. It would be obvious that every member here would find those actions to be such.

[Marie26]

128. It is not a silly question.

It is a question of total significance to world affairs. Since you have not actually commented on the content of the article, how is one to know your opinion on it? I can and will ask people that, because I am curious about the answers people have. If it were so obvious, you would think people would be discussing & expressing their opinion about the subject, yet many people have come onto this thread EXCLUSIVELY to berate the OP instead of discussing the article. Why? I have the suspicion that it's because these posters simply care more about the issue of how anti-male a DU poster is, rather than the issue of oppression & enslavement of women in Afghanistan. After all, which one affects them most directly? I am trying to get people to discuss the issue of women's rights in Afghanistan. So way out of line, I know. And please, no one has the right to tell me what to ask. The irony is that none of the people in high dudgeon about how unfair the OP is to men seem to realize that they are indulging in the same assumption of privilege that motivates many acts to protect the established social order. Bringing up the issue of male privilege here seems to inspire a firestorm, interesting.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

138. In All Sincerity, You Need To Take The Blinders Off.

You keep wanting to criticize all those here who have spoken out against blatant ignorance and hateful sexism, even though they are in the 100% right to do so. I'd fully expect the majority of people on this site to be firmly against such ignorant broadbrush sexist comments as were found in the OP. I find it deplorable that defending such principles such as not tolerating blatant hatred and sexism is being met with criticism, when it should be met with full agreement. To rant to us as if the OP should be given a free pass on the ignorant sexism just because there was another topic that was important as well, is just severely misguided in my opinion.

Sexism, bigotry and hatred should never have to be tolerated and it is always honorable to speak out about such things. I find it amazing that out of all the criticizing you've done to the replies of those standing up against the ignorant sexism, you've barely touched upon the fact the sexism was blatantly wrong to begin with. In fact, you almost seem to tolerate the hateful sexism and think it was ok. It IS NOT ok, and SHOULD NOT be given a free pass.

Yes, what's happening in Afghanistan is disgraceful and important. But the OP wasn't really about that to begin with. If it were, it would've been a sincere request for discussion on those atrocities. Instead, the OP just used the important topic as a catalyst for male bashing and broadbrush ignorant sexist attack. In my opinion, it was the OP itself that undermined its own importance of the topic by resorting to such hateful and narrow-minded tactics, rather than just having focused on the topic at hand.

So yes, every one of us that have recognized that blatant sexism and spoken out against it have in fact done the completely right thing, as such concepts and behaviors should never be acceptable. Remember: What you tolerate you teach. There is no honor in teaching sexism to be ok and acceptable.

[Marie26]

140. .

On the contrary, you need to take the blinders off. As I have posted, the OP was phrased in a sexist manner, but that is not apparantly enough for y'all. The interesting thing is, the posters who are so indignant about this post wouldn't be posting on the issue otherwise. I know, because the same names consistently show up. So consider it an opportunity to get an opinion from people who wouldn't normally be posting about the issue of women's rights. You, on the contrary, are a quite regular poster on any thread dealing w/women's issues. And consistently using terms that are calculated to demean & patronize (laughing smilies, "silly", etc.) Why are you always here, on every thread about women's issues, to shout down any feminist who posts? Why did you barge into the feminists forum to post a long post all about, wait for it, you? That's not about stopping sexism, it's about shouting people down. And I have seen you do that consistently and loudly on feminist threads. And I am tired of it. My broader point was that some self-examination may be in order, for everyone. And especially for men who get so indignant about "male-bashing" w/o stopping to consider what may provoke it. W/o stopping to consider their own place in society, the benefits & power that they take for granted, and whether they support or are against changes that might take that power away.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

141. The First Thing I Think You Need To Realize Is That Being A Feminist Does Not Mean Turning Into A

sexist bigot. Feminism is an honorable perception. Hatred, bigotry and sexism aren't.

This thread and the critiques of it had nothing to do with feminism and all to do with ignorant sexist garbage. To turn this argument around as if somehow I or others were attacking feminism is completely and utterly false and inaccurate. You seem to want to equate the hateful sexism displayed here to feminism. Like I said, being a feminist doesn't mean hypocritically turning sexist and spewing broadbrush sexist hatred. To act like it does just completely undermines the whole concept of feminism in my opinion.

I haven't seen anyone here attack any feminist concepts here at all. All I've seen is accurate critique of blatantly sexist and hateful declarations. As stated previously, I would expect ever DU'er to stand up against such things.

So please don't twist this argument into some strawman about how someone has attacked a feminist, as being a feminist has nothing to do with being a bigoted hateful sexist. No one here has attacked a feminist, so it was quite a disingenuous argument to cast it off as such.

Blatant hateful sexism towards anyone is wrong, no matter who it comes from. I hope we can both agree on that.

[MrCoffee]

119. What is your opinon of "the race of men"?

maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen you respond to the OP, which was to blame "the race of men" for the actions of the Taliban.

[EstimatedProphet]

120. The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in our dicks.

We race of Men are guilty regardless, of course...
:sarcasm:

[Marie26]

126. So no one wants to answer the question

No surprise.

[mondo joe]

127. You want an answer? It's horrible and appalling. Religious extremists are a

danger to civilization.

[EstimatedProphet]

135. Several people have already answered the question

I will too: The actions of the Taliban in torturing and murdering a person for teaching schoolgirls is beyond reprehensible. It is a truly evil act.

However, cultural relativism doens't suck. It would have kept us from invading Iraq, for one. It is also at least an attempt to see things from another perspective, unlike the "I don't like what they are doing, so let's kill them all" attitude that Americans in general have. Cultural relativism may be taken way too far, but what philosophy can;t be? Without it, we'd be the imperialists that the Neocons want us to be - that's why they try to pervert it by appealing to liberal hot-button issues like feminism, and try to make the case that Ismal is inherently sexist and Iraq was a sexist country where all the women were kept bound up in the basement.

And, whether you like it or not, talking about 'the race of men' by definition includes ALL men. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't object to that statement.

[Marie26]

129. Please see post # 75

I said that there is no such thing as the "race of men," as we are all the same human race. The OP's headline could be racist, or sexist, because the terms are broad & over-generalized, and the tone was unnecessarily inflammatory - but the article raises valid questions about the issues of religious fundamentalism & the oppression of women in patriarchal societies. OK then? Your turn. Why do you believe that religious fundamentalists seek to oppress women? Is there any connection between actions in societies like the Taliban, and other oppressive actions against women in places like Bosnia, Rwanda, China, etc.? Is it about establishing a certain religion, or a certain power structure? Why do men in so many of these societies seek to control & subjugate women? Is it an inherent gender thing, a religious thing, a power thing, or simply a function of the society? How should the world react to these kinds of atrocities? How can these violations of human rights be prevented in the future - can they be prevented?

Oh, and "It's not about you specifically, as you are undoubtedly a wonderful, great person!" (c) (standard disclaimer)

[CTyankee]

88. Marie, you have helped me "get it" about this issue on DU

I have often wondered why the gender issues inflame so many men who immediately take it as an attack on their rights. Not every man, but surprisingly, several liberal Dem males. Hmmm.

[Marie26]

131. Thanks

I hope that perspectives can change, eventually, though that might be sort of naive.

[bloom]

106. ""gender wars"...are... about the same thing as the Taliban fights in Afghanistan..."

"It's the defense of the traditional power structure & patriarchical privileges against any challenges."

Good point - and why it makes this thread so ironic.

[ThomCat]

97. No, that's a double standard.

Not cultural relativism.

[Crandor]

32. When did the original poster support all that? nt

[OzarkDem]

90. Sorry, but that's not an excuse

While the US has been wrong to invade Iraq, it doesn't excuse these subcultures from their sick, twisted misogynist ways.

[jmatthan]

116. But it is hilarious when...

...the society who put a "chucklenuts" in power for 2 terms try to debate this issue!

Is there some saying in "this society" that one should take out the mote in their own eye before focusing on someone else's eye?

[Kelly Rupert]

11. In case you missed it, the victim was an Afghan man.

Your bias is showing.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

18. See post #17 please.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. You Keep Promoting Post 17, Yet It Was Such An Illogical Post To Begin With.

I just read it and laughed at it because it is so misguided and silly.

Basically it was just trying to excuse blatant sexism and wholehearted ignorance by wrongly warping the argument into one equating the importance of the OP topic to the concept of not being an ignorant sexist. But that's utterly ridiculous. People who are protesting about the blatant ignorance and sexism do so because being an ignorant bigoted sexist is just quite simply wrong. Therefore, speaking out against it is the RIGHT thing to do. That doesn't mean that those people speaking out against it don't see the importance of the original topic or find their egos to be more important, as your poorly done strawman argument suggests.

The OP, had it have been genuine, could've discussed and revealed the importance of the inherent topic perfectly fine without having to resort to the ignorant sexism, but chose not to because the sexist bitterness inherent in the OP was the point to begin with, not the topic itself. I find it hilarious that in the end the opposite of your post is true. Though there was an important discussion worthy topic in the OP, the poster chose instead to make it ALL ABOUT MEN just so the poster could throw bitterness and anger at them. The poster undermined their own message on purpose, just for sake of anger and vindictiveness.

So in closing, I'm not sure why you keep pushing your post 17 as if it actually carried some logical validity or rational argument. It didn't. It was actually quite silly in its premise.

Blatant ignorant sexism and bigotry is wrong. Calling it out as wrong is honorable and expected from an otherwise intelligent community. Doing so in no way affects the person's feelings towards the importance of the inherent topic, as they are unrelated. Twisting their acknowledgment of hateful sexism into one of petty ego and a strawman argument of not finding the underlying issue important is just ignorant in and of itself. I personally don't find post 17 to be something to take pride in, so I'm perplexed as to why you keep recommending it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. Well I think it's a darn good post but I guess we'll agree to disagree

One useful thing about threads like this is they definitely put the lie to that age-old stereotype of male stoicism. My oh my, what sensitivity and tender feelings are on display today! :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. Don't Forget The Ignorance, Hatred And Sexism On Display.

Pretty shameful stuff.

And no, the post wasn't a good one, for all the reasons I mentioned. It was blatantly silly, misguided and foolish in its logic.

And for the record, calling those who oppose hatred, bigotry and sexism to be sensitive instead of decent and quite simply right is pathetic and hypocritical. Pretty sad to see this sort of ignorance displayed so blatantly on DU. I'm amazed you aren't embarrassed to type it.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

125. This is a darn good post, this #17? You are arguing about this?

Post #17: See my post #17. Applies to you as well. n/t

[Marie26]

13. That man did.

He made the ultimate sacrifice. Men as individuals can be very courageous, strong & respectful of women. As a group... I don't know. I don't understand that mentality, & don't understand why so many religious groups seek to control & oppress women. Protecting the patriarchy, I guess?

[nam78_two]

14. The victim was an Afghan and a man...

Calling all Afghani men scum is like saying all American men are scum because of those guys that read the Turner Diaries and dragged that poor man to his death....
This man had a lot of courage to keep doing what he was doing.

I feel so sorry for women born into such a part of the world though..Talk about never having a chance :(...

I wish I hadn't read this...its so depressing...

Those poor poor people....

Good God -what a way to die....

[WilliamPitt]

19. Maybe they hate being called "Afghanistani"

Afghan, or Afghani.

Just FYI.

[mondo joe]

21. It's not only men who perpetuate the culture.

It takes men and women both.

[donsu]

48. is that because us women have so much power in the govts. that rule

us, whatever country we happen to be born in?

if we had power the men would'nt be allowed to oppress us.

[mondo joe]

50. There are all sorts of power. Women teach conformity to culture just

as much as men do, and perpetuate it just as much.

Governments don't create cultures - cultures create governments.

[ThomCat]

95. That's a very narrow, limited understanding.

Government is created by power. Power is usually held by a narrow subculture at the top. So A culture might create government, but not the general culture of the general public. Government is enforced down upon most people without their consent.

As for women teaching conformity, the people at the bottom of the pile are always limited in what they have the knowledge, the training, the support and the power to teach or do. Of course the people who are most oppressed teach traditions that perpetuate oppression. They're not allowed to teach anything else.

I wouldn't blame women for that any more than I'd blame slaves in the 17th century for teaching meekness and obedience. One of the primary ways that dominant groups perpetuate their power is by forcing the subservient group to learn and teach subservience. You might not have received the memo, but Blaming The Victim is Bad.

[mondo joe]

99. I'm not blaming anyone, much less the victims.

If you think Afghanistan is filled with men who are "true believers" and women who want to be liberated, you're quite wrong.

Men and women both create and preserve culture together. There are women who hold the very same religious beliefs and convictions that some of the worst men do.

Hell, you don't even have to look at Afghanistan. Look at Phyllis Schlafly - or am I blaming the victim when I hold her accountable for her own positions?

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. I don't know. Let me ask my government.

Patty? Maria? What do you think?

How about you Christine?

Both my senators and my governor aren't sure how to answer.

[ThomCat]

96. That's a wonderful straw man.

We have a smaller percentage of women in powerful possitions than any other industrial nation.

Those few women have only recently been able to get even that far.

They are operating within power structures that have been built and maintained by male dominance for the past 200+ years. (and some power structures that are far, far older.)

Women politicians still are not treated with the same respect as male politicians. (See the media coverage of Pelosi's clothing as a clear example.)

And then come back and tell us how much power women have over government.

[mondo joe]

100. Government is irrelevant. These cultures and their practices existed

long before government which is nothing but one representation of the culture in which it exists.

[kiahzero]

139. Right... no one ever talks about male clothing.

There certainly wasn't any coverage of Al Gore's choice of suits and what it meant for his campaign in 2000. There was never a discussion of Wes Clark's argyle sweater.

[Rosemary2205]

22. What's up with all the racist flamebait today?

This is like the 3rd one I've seen in 15 minutes.

First it was WTF is wrong with Africans, then it was WTF is wrong with Mexicans, now it's WTF is wrong with Afghans. Any more brown people we want to stereotype today?

[ContraBass Black]

25. Where's the one about Africans?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2840971

Not the thread, but a post there in.

Apparently black men are all a bunch of rapists.

[ContraBass Black]

41. Vile.

[ThomCat]

98. Nobody on that thread said any such thing.

What point are you trying to make with that straw man?

[MrCoffee]

123. what the hell? the poster said no such thing

please quote what makes you think that the poster was advocating the "black men are all a bunch of rapists" position you ascribe to him.

[Rosemary2205]

37. See reply #1 here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2840971

[cali]

27. What's the matter with Texan men

that they allow a black man to be dragged to death behind a truck?

See the problem with your gross generalization?

[elehhhhna]

31. Dont' forget "What's the matter with Texas Moms -- drowning and stoning

the homeschooled precious few who can't be exposed to the evils of public education"?

[cali]

39. Oops. Forgot that one.

Honestly, we could go on all day in this vein, and I'm sure cover all 50 states, and all the territories.

[ContraBass Black]

52. What's the matter with humans?

Always lying, cheating, and stealing. Vile creatures.

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Well, That One Actually Works OK

You went too far. Humans are not be trusted. It has nothing to do with color, religion, background, gender or preference. It's the human being thing.
The Professor

[VOX]

61. Very well put, cali. n/t

[Marie26]

63. Maybe a better word would be "society", nt

[Jed Dilligan]

40. People who lead rough lives do rough things.

America is somewhere in the middle of the scale. There are countries more civilized than ours, where, for instance, prison rape isn't a major or even a known phenomenon. What's the matter with American people, male and female, if they treat a drug addict by locking him up with a bunch of sexual predators? When a heinous crime is discussed here on DU, invariably someone posts that the suspect deserves to be anally raped as a punishment.

So, the question is, what's the problem with people? There are some places where violence and brutality are everyday things, where they are treated casually, and others where non-violence is the norm and violence is greeted with shock and horror. Which is America to you? I think it depends on your point of view, not just where you live and how much money you make, but what you read and how you see things.

I'm sure many Afghans lead a peaceful and gentle existence, just as many Americans do. Lucky them, lucky you. There are others in both countries who live with constant brutality and are, in turn, brutal.

[jgraz]

43. Excellent, excellent response

:applause:

[Kelly Rupert]

51. I wish we could K&R individual posts. n/t

[nam78_two]

58. Great post/nt

[Marie26]

76. Thank you

for giving such a good explanation.

[0rganism]

93. Thanks for a excellent post, JD

I'm glad to see that someone is able to make sense of the situation.

[kineneb]

46. male teacher

1. the Taliban does not believe in the education of females. Period. In fact, they really don't believe in education at all for anyone. Might lead to questioning the Koran, you see.

2. the teacher was male, educating females. Double wrong in the eyes of the Taliban: the genders should not mix in public and females should not be educated. Period.

3. Yes, it was a barbaric act. The Taliban are what our Fundamentalists want to be when they grow up. Be warned.

4. Blowing up the Taliban is also barbaric. But... since they only understand the language of violence, speaking peace to them is to waste one's breath.

5. Just because something is a practice of a culture does not make it right or just. Europeans burned "witches" and "heretics" during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. It was a "cultural" practice. It still was not right or just.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. Yay! Ignorantly Generalized Dumb Sexist Crap! And What The Hell Is An Afghanistani?

:eyes:

[MrCoffee]

65. didn't you get your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of the Race of Men?

it's what we're calling Afghans these days.

[ProfessorGAC]

68. Why Am I Always The Last To Get A Copy?

Look this happens time and time again. Could you please assign a team to correct this situation?
The Professor

[Greyhound]

72. Testosterone poisoning combined with religious brainwashing. n/t

:kick:

[etherealtruth]

74. I understand your rage ....

... against the horrific conditions women and children (esp female children) live in, in Afghanistan. I share your horror and revulsion. I feel shame (associated with humans) that this type of thing occurs.

However, I don't believe it is helpful to alienate almost 1/2 of the worlds population with statements like "what's the matter with the race of men ..."

Sadly, human beings do hideous horrible things and it will take all of us together to save these women from the deeply ingrained misogyny.

[Nederland]

78. what's the matter with Afghanistani women???

You said:

what's the matter with the race of men for allowing the Taliban men to do this??

don't you love your daughters??


I'm curious as to why you didn't phrase it this way:

what's the matter with the race of women for allowing the Taliban men to do this??

don't you love your daughters??


Unless perhaps you believe that it is the role of men to protect women...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

84. Shhhhhh!!!!! Don't Point Out Hypocrisy. They Don't Like That.

LOL

[mondo joe]

103. I suspect some people think those cultures consist of a bunch of

men who are "true believers" and a bunch of women who secretly long to be liberated.

The fact is that there are women who believe in the same sexist claptrap the men believe in, and just as strongly.

Hell, look at America for the Christian version of the same.

[libodem]

81. What's the matter with George Bush?

He should be held personally responsible for harm coming to any Afghanistan women. He personally took credit for being their savior by reason of invading their country. I can not see for the life of me what good it has done. The only rebuilding is done around military installations just as it has been done in Iraq. Bush cares nothing about individual human beings, about torture, education, genocide in Africa. He jacks off to the stories brutality and cruelty. Pig fucker bastard.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. What's with all the generalisations?

Exactly the same article was posted in GD yesterday, but that thread focused on Islam and how backward the religion was. Today the focus has switched to men. I find it really disgusting that such a terrible thing as the brutal murder of this man for daring to educate females is grabbed by whoever has an axe to grind about something else. Coz I doubt very much the worst offender from yesterday's thread and now this one actually give a toss about this man being murdered, nor deep down really care all that much about whether or not Afghan females are given the opportunity to be educated or not....

[Lilith Velkor]

85. Why do the women not rise up?

They can hide a lot of weapons under those burquas. The Koran forbids the oppression of women, so Allah's got their back.

Word to the sisters. A woman's gotta do what a woman's gotta do.

[Nobody]

122. That explains why the Taliban get bent out of shape at the very thought

of a woman reading the Koran for herself rather than letting them interpret it for her and tell her what to think, say, and do.

That's why they went after education first. It's why the slave owners pre-Civil War made laws against teaching slaves to read and write. If you can't read the laws for yourself, read whatever holy writ justifies your oppressed position only to find that your oppression isn't in there, they can keep on oppressing you.

By the way, check out the RAWA web site.

http://www.rawa.org

The women are doing something.

[etherealtruth]

132. Many (if not most) women there ...

... are extremely isolated and uneducated. They have absolutely no understanding that there is another way. Generations have been raised to believe they are subordinate to men.

why don't women rise up ... They don't know they can!

[Snot Hannity]

86. We should be fighting for the rights

of these oppressed women and men. Not fight for oil.

[varun]

89. "Things are going swimmingly in Afghanistan"

-Ann Coulter

:eyes:

[AliceWonderland]

92. In places where there is social chaos, poverty, and structural violence

...women tend to be worse off, in terms of social and human rights, as well as basic economic and political participation. This is a worldwide problem, and correlates with poverty or social chaos.

The worse the structural violence and more torn the social fabric, the more forces like ideological or religious extremism can fill in the spaces. That's why there were some folks against invading Afghanistan and violently toppling the ruling fundamentalist cabal: *if* the goal was improved human rights, more social stability, and in particular, more respect for women's lives, creating even more violence and chaos was not going to achieve that goal. Some Afghan women's groups like RAWA recognized this at the time.

This is from AI's 2006 annual report at http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/afg-summary-eng:

In a climate of continued lack of public security and rule of law, women were denied enjoyment of their human rights. Women continued to face systematic and widespread violence and discrimination in public and private including discriminatory customary practices. In June the government established an inter-ministerial council aimed at combating violence against women, but by the end of 2005 few legal provisions to protect women had been promulgated, and fewer implemented.

Structural violence has so deeply torn Afghan society. It will take structural solutions to rebuild.

[MrSlayer]

101. You mean "What's the matter with religious nutcases?"

And the question answers itself. These people are fucking batshit insane. Ignorant, brainwashed fools who have more than a touch of sadism in them.

[ButterflyBlood]

130. yep, you summed it up

Can't believe people can't see something that simple.

[etherealtruth]

133. ... and that is the truth! n/t

[agincourt]

108. The Taliban should be exterminated,

They are not human. That's why conservatives have a secret love affair with them.

[INDIA]

110. Times like this I wish I was a Marine in Afghanistan.

Seriously, I could waste guys like this and go to sleep with a big happy smile on my face. Unbelieveable. The Taliban is the scum of the earth. The absolute scum.

It's like we aren't even the same species.


(5..4...3...2....Americans aren't any better! Post #34) If I believed that, I would hang myself.

[agincourt]

111. I think the thing that sets me off most about it,

is what prompted them to do it. Mutilating a teacher who tried to teach girls. Too much to take at times.

[DaveJ]

112. Global human rights issues should be enforced

Why can't these men be punished for what they did? That's the follow up to this story I'd like to see.

[LoneDriver]

136. Just how and by who?

We seem to have failed to do so, so far. Isn't that the paradox? We declared war on terrah, invaded and found we cannot make them over in our image at gunpoint. Now what?

[Cleita]

137. And to think that Bushler could have ended all this with an

updated Marshall Plan and the aid of other countries willing to be peacekeepers until Afghanistan could be stabilized and brought into the twenty-first century. But he preferred to invade and raid Iraq instead.