About the whole America, or should I say Amerika=Nazi Germany

[cali]

thing: By and large it's a fallacious argument. Sure there are some points of comparison, but you folks who insist that this country in 2006 is the equivalent of Germany in 1939 are just wrong. By 1939, tens of thousands of dissidents had been put in prison camps. Thousands of those were tortured and killed. The Nurenburg laws were enacted in 1935. By the late 30s, thousands of the mentally disabled had been murdered by the regime. The ability to dissent in any form was long gone 6 years into the nazi regime.

Yes, bushco is a criminal enterprise. Yes, they're responsible for unleashing a disasterous and tragic war, for corruption and for restricting civil rights in this country through such instruments as the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act, as well as the unauthorized spying on Americans. Yes, I want to see bushco exposed, and hopefully punished under the law. And there's but one road to such an end: Investigations.

But you and I are openly discussing these things, and that is a huge difference between year 6 of bushco and year 6 of nazi germany and hitler.
We are not going to get thrown into a prison camp for criticizing our gov't- no matter how harshly or how loudly. In fact, a case was resolved this week that should indicate that the gov't can be held responsible for over zealouness using the Patriot Act; Brandon Mayfield, the Oregon lawyer, was awarded 2 million bucks.

Democrats will take the seats of power in the new Congress. Many who will be chairing committees are staunch liberals and real fighters. Now is not the time to be picking up pitchforks and demanding that bushco be thrown immediately out of the WH and into prison. It ain't gonna happen, and aside from letting off steam, is pointless.

[pooja]

1. Don't you think its just a little bit more clever to do things out in the

open under the guise of democracy... We have torture, domestic spying, eminant domain take-over, homeland security (look up gestapo), and enemy combatant to be defined by the decider. No, its not in your face, but its there.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. But...

Bush is more like Hitler's predecessors, who set the stage for Hitler by:
1. Inciting a general spirit of hatred.
2. Overseeing the rape and plunder of the German Middle Class.
3. Setting a precedent for suspending the German Constitution because of "emergencies". Hitler later used this to seize absolute control.

If Hitler's predecessors had been stopped, there's a very good chance that Hitler would not have been able to emerge.

Bush is no Hitler - but we must get him out ASAP, and make it clear that the Constitution is the law of the land.

[cali]

5. No. I don't wholly agree

but I did enjoy reading your blog.

[EnviroBat]

7. Thank You Manny

This was the point I was trying to make in a previous disagreement which incited this post. There are obvious parallels, and they are taking place right before our eyes. While I'm not advocating riots, and taking to the streets, it is time for us to start voicing our demands. Through whatever means, investigations, impeachment, etc, it is clear that George Bush is a dangerous person the future of out nation, and he must be removed from office as soon as possible.

[cali]

8. He's a walking talking lame duck

He won't be launching any more wars. He won't get any more wingnut judges. His power is greatly diminished. You and I will not end up in prison camps for expressing dissent.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Unless, of course, he and his cohorts are able to blame the

weak-kneed democrats for the failure in Iraq, forcing our pullout and international humiliation, whereupon (whoever) will ride in on a white horse in '08 and save the country from the liberals.

We may be getting a breather, but the fight is not over by a long shot. This crew will not go gently into the good night - they'd rather drag us all into the darkness with them, than relinquish their power.

I read that there were more questions on the vote this year than any previous - 3,000,000 lost Dem votes. They did their best to steal it, but underestimated what it would take. They won't make that mistake again.

[cali]

14. Sorry, you're far, far too conspiratorial

for my me. This is more of: We will invade Iran before the election. There will be martial law before the election. They'll steal it. They'll do a false flag operation.

No, the fight isn't over. We've a ton of work to do to reverse the damage, but I'd bet anything that your scenario will not come to pass.

[AngryOldDem]

16. Couldn't agree more

I think the United States is more like Germany in the early '30s, rather than 1939. As bad as that is, there is still time to get us back on track, IF we pay attention to history.

[Jed Dilligan]

17. "Weimar Republicans"

has a nice ring to it.

[Kelly Rupert]

3. K&R for some intellectual integrity.

It would be tragic if the honest truth about this administration's abuses were to be lost in the easily-dismissable hyperbole about Nazism.

[LSK]

4. 2 years ago I would say we were on that road

But with the Dems taking back Congress, I say we averted a disaster similar to Nazi Germany.

[cali]

6. But you do realize

that none of things I listed as having happened in nazi germany- and they happened very rapidly, materialized under bush- awful as he's been. I must say, I never worried about being taken off to a prison camp for political dissent, though sometimes I wondered if my little peace and justice group was being surveilled.

[LSK]

10. I would say we were on par with earlier Nazi Germany

Not the advanced state you mention (1938/1939). More like 1934/1935.

I read Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich by William L. Shirer in 2003 when a lot of this was happening and I could see some similarities and the comparisons are not that off base. Things like propaganda, Reichstag fire, extreme patriotism, blaming others for problems (them communists and Jews, us muslims and gays). Also the lies to invade Poland and Austria and Czechoslovakia compared nicely to the lies to invade Iraq.

But where the Nazis dominated and completely fixed their elections by 1938 and completely outlawed opposition parties, we did not and we are on course to politically change our course now.

Had the Dems lost this year, then I would really be scared.

People need to learn from history and not automatically shut off when they hear the comparisons. How better to prevent the past than by having a rational discussion the question of could it happen here (of course it can) and is it happening here (I would say today - no)?

[cali]

20. Maybe I didn't make this clear enough

What hitler did internally in 6 years, far, far surpasses what bush has done in the same amount of time. That said, I agree that some of things you listed are fair comparisons. Yes, it can happen here, but it's not.

[EnviroBat]

11. Honestly cali

You never viewed Bush's signing statements, for example, as a threat to the system of checks and balances and at least a grave stretch of executive power? How about the NSA wiretapping, which I'd like to remind you is still alive and well despite recent judicial challenges to it's constitutionality. None of this has so much as twinge of historical parallel to what was occurring during Hitlers rise to power? I'm really not trying to foster a heated criticism of your views, I am genuinely interested. Hell, they may even make me look at things more objectively. The truth is, my friends are my friends and I love them. They are concerned with current events, and history repeating itself. I personally find it easy to agree with them.

[cali]

13. Of course I think his signing statements

are a threat to our system of checks and balance. My OP makes that clear. I mentioned the NSA wiretappings, as well as the MCA. And I think it's fair to call bushboy a fascist. And yes, you can make some slight comparisons to nazi germany, but the differences loom larger. As I said, that you and I our having this conversation, and speaking for myself, I have no fear that doing so, imperils me, speaks loudly of those differences.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. That's what Manny Goldstein said. Many of the preparatory measures

had been put in place, prior to the Dem's take-over of the House and Senate: highly significant preparatory measures, eminently characteristic of the rise of Hitler's Nazi regime.

Furthermore, I think we have the residual worldly cunning of the real powers in the land, our corporatist overlords, to "thank" (I use the word in a purely metaphorical sense) for Bushco's electoral losses. They have always been capable of great foolishness, but they will always remain strategic thinkers.

Like the good folk of New Hampshire, they not only saw the imminent, nay, incipient economic catastrophe, which may, in large measure, still be unavoidable, and would have been terrified, but they also realised that the USA and its people can in no wise be compared with pre-WWII Germany, in terms of malleability to the wishes and power of the engineers of a coup d'etat.

Moreover, the USA still exists, indeed, more than any other nation, in an international context, in the full glare of international publicity, and if Bushco were to be persuaded that the time is ripe to begin a reign of terror on any and every dissident American, it simply wouldn't fly in practical terms. Yes, with the media and bent electoral system, they still had their naive supporters, but nowhere near enough, in the teeth of the constant truth-telling onslaughts of the politically-savvy on the Internet, which was bound to eventually prevail.

No doubt our corporate overlords would have wished it otherwise, but in worldy terms, they're not fools. Except perhaps in their inertia, the length of time it's taken them to come to their senses and bail out.

[Target_For_Exterm]

9. You forget about the KBR prison camp contract...

Give Bush time. He'll have us all locked up, looted, and lined up to be shot before you can mumble "what the freak are those camps for?"

You think the rhetoric that calls us terrorists is an accident?

:tinfoilhat:

[OneBlueSky]

18. yup . . . and BushCo still has two more years to find excuses for . . .

declaring and implementing (maybe) martial law and for locking up "dissidents" and "insurgents" -- in other words, anyone who disagrees with the BushCo world view . . . fortunately, we'll now have a Democratic Congress to act as a check on their most sinister ambitions -- I hope . . .

[Cleita]

19. Just because we are Nazi-lite doesn't make it any less true.

There are more than similarities. The ideology is the same. We must have perpetual war to survive. We are right and they are wrong. We must have a father figure to keep us safe from some enemy, any enemy whose country you want to invade for personal gain.

Hitler invaded half of Europe so Germans could have lebensraum. The real reason is that Poland, Czchecoslavakia, Russia, Austria and France had attractive mineral assets and industries he wanted to get his hands on. Does Iraqi and Iranian oil come to mind?

Killing Jews and Slavs (yes he hated Slavs as much as he did Jews) was personal, but he was able to bait the racism in Germans to get them to follow him in exterminating them. The same is happening here with Middle Easterners, Muslims and Latino immigrants. I had someone the other day saying we should bomb the Hell out of North Korea. Does this sound like America or Nazi Germany?

Hitler had from 1933 to 1945 (twelve years)for his murders to come to a peak. Bushco has only had half that time. If we don't take back our country it could end up as bad as Nazi Germany because for the first six years Hitler was only beginning to firm him hold over Germany and the people to commit the atrocities he did in the following years.

[cali]

21. Yes, the perpetual war

ideology is similar. But that's hardly unique to the nazis. But I disagree with much else of what you wrote.

I don't think that the real reason that Hitler invaded Poland etc. was for mineral rights. Part of the reason perhaps, but most historians of the period don't attribute the invasions of Poland et al. to greed for minerals. It had more to do with his overarching philosophy of German superiority and Aryan supremecy than mineral rights. Whereas I do think that oil is the main reason for the invasion of Iraq, georgie also has some delusional thinking behind his rationale.

Did Hitler hate the slavs. Certainly. Did he hate them as much as the Jews? Nope. Read Mein Kampf. Jews were his pet obsession. To say that the same thing is happening here is hyperbole. Yes, there's hate of Muslims in this country, and it is deplorable, and MUST be fought, but a Muslim was just elected to the House. Can you imagine a Jew being elected to the any office in nazi germany. Remember, the Nurenberg laws were passed in 1935. So no, some nut saying we should bomb N. Korea is not the equivalent of anything. We've always had nuts who are agitating for dropping more and bigger bombs. Think Vietnam.

Finally, I pointed out that by 1939- 6 years into the nazi regime, what hitler had done, far outstrips what bush has done. Tens of thousands imprisoned and tortured, the mentally disabled murdered by the thousand. The squashing of all dissent. That happened within a very short period of time. Actually shorter than the period that bush has been in office.
So you are quite wrong when you state: "because for the first six years Hitler was only beginning to firm him hold over Germany and the people to commit the atrocities he did in the following years.because for the first six years Hitler was only beginning to firm him hold over Germany and the people to commit the atrocities he did in the following years." That terribly historically inaccurate.

[BeFree]

22. We shall see

The H. nazis rose fast and were defeated fast. The B. nazis learned from that and have slowly incorporated their philosophy into the government.

You can deny the obvious similarities and the historic lineage between the two groups, but the fact is the philosophy is the same.

It is only because of the increased freedom we Americans have vs '30s era Germans that the worst has not yet occured. Remember, after 9/11 the Patriot act and the invasion were forced upon us, and it is only because of threat of public backlash that they have not moved further and faster.

Another Reichstag fire event and you may be altering your opinions.

[Cleita]

23. I have read Mein Kampf.

Also, you might try reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer, who was a correspondent living in Nazi Germany up until WWII. He went back after the war and was given access to all documents from that era. I think you will find what our Reich does is an updated version of what that Reich did. After all Germans and actually the west had very little idea of the extent of Hitlers atrocities until they actually marched into Germany in 1944.

We don't know yet the extent of Bush's atrocities, but they are starting to leak out. I was just watching a man on Democracy Now TV, a German citizen, describing his detention and torture by Americans in a foreign country.

Also, Hitler invaded Poland with Russia as his ally. He really wanted access to Ukranian wheat and Rumanian and Polish oil fields, which Poland stood in the way of. Stalin, however, outmaneuvered Hitler and gained half of Poland and the territories Hitler really wanted. Aw well, it was time to turn his focus to invading the west.

[cali]

24. Sorry. I shouldn't have said

"read Mein Kampf", just as you shouldn't be assuming wrongly that I haven't read Shirer- in fact, I have not only read it, I've read it several times. And sorry, many people knew of the atrocities in Germany far before 1944. That most people were in denial about it, or for political reasons didn't acknowledge it, doesn't mean that there wasn't a ton of information about the atrocities committed by the nazi regime as early as the late thirties.

Yes, I know about the german citizen who was captured and tortured. Yes, we'll find out more, but anyone who thinks that bush's atrocities are on a par with what the nazi regime did, or what Stalin did, just doesn't know enough or is so consumed by anger (justifiably, but still) that they can't look clearly at the facts.