Debating death for child rape

[madmusic]

A poster in another thread brought up the issue of torture and the death penalty for "for the rape of a small girl." Personally, if the cops could torture John Couey in time to save Jessica Lunsford, I'd have no problem with it. But everyone has their reasons to support a stronger police state at the expense of the Bill of Rights, and if all those reasons were enacted, we would have NO Bill of Rights. And if possession of child pornography his reoffending against the child, maybe it would eventually earn the death penalty without ever touching a child. That, coupled with other crimes people think deserve the death penalty, like flame baiting and trolling or being a freeper, this is something to think about.

Since it is a legal issue and not a moral one, before another death penalty craze rushes across the country (for more than child rape) let's know the history and issues so when the politicians are on FoxNews we know as much as they do, maybe more.

"Sentencing Law and Policy" has the basics:

The blogosphere is buzzing with critiques of Texas bills that would make aggravated sexual assault of a child younger than 14 punishable by death if the defendant had been previously convicted of a similar crime. Grits for Breakfast and Sex Crimes Blog and Off the Kuff set out the usual arguments against making child rape a capital crime.

For a more detailed discussion of this issue focused on constitutional issues, check out a note in the latest issue of the Cornell Law Review entitled Death Row for Child Rape? Cruel and Unusual Punishment Under the Roper-Atkins "Evolving Standards of Decency" Framework. This note is available at this link.

links work at the blog: http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2006/11/debating_death_.html (I'm reading the Cornell Law Review article now and haven't finished it yet.)

[enlightenment]

1. You know, for me, this can't be conditional.

I decided I cannot support the death penalty -- so I cannot support the death penalty. No conditions. No what-ifs.

I have very, very few black and white areas in my life. This is one of them.

[WindRavenX]

4. Same here

In order to fight the monster, you cannot become the monster.

This guy is gonna suffer a long time in prison, but the state cannot murder another person as justice.

[MazeRat7]

29. Absolutely. Its one of the few things that does not have a "grey" area. -nt

[Robeson]

34. Agreed.

[TahitiNut]

38. Agreed.

It's cold-blooded homicide ... the worst kind.

[cynatnite]

2. How can anyone debate this logically?

A little girl is brutally raped by a sexual predator. I would have a tough time keeping my emotions in check and want the person responsible to suffer. That's why I would be no good on a jury for something like this. It turns my stomach and I become enraged.

I'm against the death penalty, but things like this make it hard to not want the criminal to get about a million volts through his body.

[enlightenment]

10. You have to be logical - emotion has no place in the

judicial system.

When considering the death penalty, that leaves two options -- you can logically determine that death is an appropriate form of punishment - in that case, kill everyone convicted, because, logically (and logistically) it makes sense -- OR, logically determine that death is not an appropriate punishment. Period.

Logic does not have an emotional component, and neither should justice.

[cynatnite]

14. That's why I couldn't be on a jury for something like this...

It makes me think too much of my kids and grandkids. I'd tell a judge that, too.

[TheWraith]

32. It's really quite simple, actually.

If a child rapist knows that they're going to be executed if caught, then they have every possible reason and motivation to go further, and murder their victim. Children can recover from being molested. They can't recover from being killed.

[longship]

3. No to the death penalty.

No compromises. No exceptions. Just plain no.

[everythingsxen]

5. I am mostly against the death penalty

and the reason I am against it are two-fold:

• What if the police have caught the wrong person?
  
• Most crimes worth a death penalty should instead be life in prison. Life in prison is far worse than a quick death. It's worse than a torturous death even.
  

In the case of something as messed up as child rape though... well I mean if I were a father and it was my kid I would beat the guy to death and if in turn I were a juror at that fathers trial, I would acquit.

That being said though, in the case of rapists of all stripes, they get one "free" pass at simply going to prison and therapy for a while. If they reform and never do it again, huzzah. If however they do it again, castration and life in prison.

[cynatnite]

8. No guarantees they won't do it again either...

This country does such a rotten job in dealing with criminals that it's no surprise we have such a high crime rate compared to the rest of the world.

The justice system sucks and the penal system is worse. Too many people are interested in locking them up and throwing away the key. To hell with rehabilitation of any kind. The prisons are nothing more than schools to learn how to be better criminals and when a person does their time, they can't get much of a break from society because they're still being punished for breaking the law in the first place.

Okay, enough of my rant :) Couldn't help it.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

20. Yeah, I agree on Tim McVeigh...

Wasn't sorry to see that guy go. Bad thing is, there was another guy involved in that bombing. The law and the press circulated a photo of him and everything. They catch McVeigh and the hunt for his cohort stops. McVeigh is dead and now we'll never know who else was involved.

[everythingsxen]

33. I was watching a thing on YouTube..

that showed the picture of the mystery John Doe from Oklahoma and it looks just like Jose Padilla. At the same time as the bombing, (I think) Terry Nicols was in Thailand, which was the exact same time Khalid Sheik Mohammad and Osama were there, which is a pretty interesting coincidence.

[dsc]

6. a very practical reason this is a bad idea

Since it is much harder to get caught if you kill the kid as opposed to rape you should have some incentive left not to kill the kid.

[LoZoccolo]

26. Oh, you're one of those people who'd like to bring criminology into this whole debate.

:spank:

[dflprincess]

7. I'm against the death penalty in all cases

Anyone who's for it should read John Grisham's latest book "The Innocent Man" (a true story).

I'm also against it in rape cases because usually the only witness to the rape is the victim. If the penalty for rape is the same as murder, the rapist will have an incentive to kill the witness.

[BlackVelvet04]

23. Agreed....

it's a great book.

I don't support the death penalty because I think it is immoral for the state to murder. So the crime doesn't affect my belief.

[hamletsophelia]

9. PERSONALLY IM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY IN SPECIFIC CASES

AND CHILD RAPE IS ONE OF THEM I MEAN MY GOD COME ON..

[Possumpoint]

12. Child Rape = Death Penalty?

Fry them.

[951-Riverside]

30. Until you're on the receiving end of an accusation

...Foley

[aikoaiko]

13. I'm ok with applying the DP to other horrendous crimes besides murder.

I'm not an absolutist either way. Its not like I think all murderers should be executed either. I'll let the jury and/or judge decide. But yes, I think there are other crimes such as extremely brutal sexually assaults that are worthy of death.

Yes, it bothers me that sometimes innocent people have been killed. But it also bothers me that some people get to live after the crimes they've committed.

[everythingsxen]

16. Basically I am only for the Death Penalty when it is...

absolute rock solid concrete proof that the person did the crime and it was a truly heinous crime and there is a very serious likelihood of them doing it again.

[madmusic]

19. The crime?

That covers a lot of crimes.

[everythingsxen]

24. Like I said, something very heinous and repeated

like a mass murderer, spree killer, serial rapist. Somone who has shown they are going to do it again and again without ever stopping.

[madmusic]

25. You did say that...

I didn't read it well enough.

[Warpy]

22. That depends on what you want

Personally, I want to see them shut away where they can't do it to anyone else. I say this as a survivor of a murder in my family. I was 16, and I don't recall ever wanting him dead, just locked up so nobody else would have to go through what we did. It was a bit late, maybe, since he was suspected in 2 other similar murders in the area, but he did eventually die in prison.

I guess I don't have a vengeful nature. I do know if he'd been killed by the state in my name it would have made it all much worse, not better.

I think the DP is the most overused penalty in this country behind the Draconian sentences given nonviolent drug offenders. It's proven to be no deterrent, it's more expensive than lifetime incarceration, and yes, some innocents have been killed by the state.

Lifetime in prison should satisfy the vengeful. If it doesn't, they need to visit a prison and see what it's like inside. They'll go away fully satisfied that the perpetrator's life is sufficiently miserable.

Sometimes life can be worse than death, you know.

[aikoaiko]

28. My condolences to you and yours on the murder.

I certainly won't argue with your experience.

But I will say that have heard that if life imprisionment with no chance of parole is the harshest sentence possible, then murderers will be more likely to get out on parole and heres why. Prosecutors sometimes know they have weaknesses in their case and murderers who know they did it don't want to the chance of receiving death so they currently plead out to life imprisonment without parole. But if life without parole is the harshest sentence, then the next harshest (life with parole) becomes the plea arrangement of choice. And they will get parole.

Just some more food for thought.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Warpy]

31. I have no problem with the garden variety murderer eventually

getting out after a couple of decades in the joint. After that amount of time, they've left the (usually) drinking and drugging punk they were at the time of the murder far, far behind.

Prison at its best can offer substance abuse treatment and education, both for GED and Associate's Degrees. The two predictors of a prisoner's not returning to prison are successful sobriety and even modest education.

In my perp's case, there wasn't much to rehab. He was borderline retarded, mentally ill and trying to self medicate with drinking and probably drugs. He met the criteria for sanity, but barely. He needed to be locked up and he was. His health was poor from years of substance abuse and he died before he came up for consideration for parole. I doubt he'd have gotten it.

[DaveJ]

15. It would not work

Realistically it would let more perverts go free because it would be harder to convict if the punishment were death.

I suspect that child molesters would start raping younger children who are not considered reliable witnesses.

There should be a closer supervision period after an incarceration period for all criminals. In many ways there is nothing done to prevent repeat offenses. Start there.

[madmusic]

17. Did anyone read anything at the blog? LOL...

It will probably be found unconstitutional and the Law Review article explains why. Hopefully you won't blame activist judges when that is held unconstitutional if it is.

A search of freeperville for "jury duty" gets some interesting hits. Many consider it a civic duty to convict. Some also suggest wearing a suit and tie to let the prosecution know your a good guy.

Frankly, if I were one of the cops interrogating Couey, I'd have no qualms about torturing him if it could save Jessica, no matter if it got me fired and thrown in prison, but then, I'd never pass their psychological test anyway and couldn't be a cop, lol.

Though against the death penalty because it doesn't do any good and actually promotes the culture of death and violence, I was on the fence on this one until reading the Law Review article. Now I'm against it even for that.

In fact, I think our higher-than-world-average rate of violent crime is in large part due to our extreme laws and the death penalty. It's like we never made it through the Al Capone days and got stuck in time. But we stay the course.

[Deja Q]

18. Victims of these bastards have scars that can last a lifetime.

Exterminate the sleaze who raped.

And not all people who are raped grow up to be rapists either.

[madmusic]

21. That's why it's unconstitutional... can last a lifetime.

Still alive. That's what the courts have found so far.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. no-

not can

they do. in every case. and the worst of the scars aren't visible.

i know... all too well.

but knowing that the man who did this was murdered by 'good' people to punish him for what he did to me, and at least one other person i found out about years later, would only make me feel like i truly am a 'bad girl'. an abortion that should have happened. the evil seed that never should have sprouted and taken breath.

there is enough cruelty and unkindness in this world already. fighting bad things, by doing bad things only makes this world more filled with bad.

And seeing people who are supposed to be 'the good guys' do bad things, reinforces the truth that no one is safe. no one is not going to hurt you-

and this world is a bad place.

i can speak to this with the voice of only one who has been there. there are too many of us to number- but killing people to stop it will never stop it.

i shouldn't have opened this post-

[madmusic]

35. Thank you for your thoughts...

There isn't a smilie that conveys what I'm feeling, but if there were, it would be something like this:

empathy + salute = you rock.

A saluting heart would be close, but not close enough.

You rock.

[uppityperson]

36. No death penalty.

life without parole would work, but no to death penalty for several reasons. Error of who did it, error in convicting first time due to crime definition, "might as well kill the kid as long as I'll get death anyway and that way there won't be a witness", don't believe in death penalty at all.

[The Straight Story]

37. A woman kills her kids, and we find reasons to excuse it, rape a kid and kill the perp?

something is really wrong here.

[uppityperson]

39. well you see a mom would only do it because she was sick, where

(edited because I forgot the sarcasm smiley)
someone else would do it because they were evil. Simple, see? :sarcasm:

I have gotten a couple additions to my watch list from this thread.

[upi402]

40. I agree, we have obsessed on the taboos in our hyper-Victorian ethos

Americans are hung up. Both, obsessed with and self-righteous about -s.e.x.

The corporate media hypes every salacious, lascivious, libidinous story it can pap smear up off of the soiled underwear of any poor victim it can exploit. They distract with this suffering and profit from it too. And I get pissed more and more because the few times I tune in... it's usually on.

And the real news is canceled.

We are so twisted up and conflicted, no wonder this sick crap happens.


Can we pull the eyeballs from skulls of the next sick-ass outgroup the media whips us into a frenzy over????

[Blue-Jay]

41. State-sponsored revenge is evil. Period.

The death penalty has NEVER been about justice.

That said, if someone killed or raped a loved one of mine, I'd be tempted to kill them with my own hands. I don't think that the justice system in general should be based upon a primitive notion of retribution, however.

[Vektor]

42. Whatever the punishment, it needs to be equally harsh

whether the victim is a child, or an adult. The rape of ANYONE is reprehensible and vile, whether the victim be nine or ninety. (Or male or female, for that matter.)

A violent sex crime is just that. A sickening violation of someone's right to bodily integrity.

I have more of an objection to the notion that raping a grown-up (or in this case, anyone over 14) is somehow slightly more acceptable than if the victim were younger, than I do to the notion of the death penalty itself.

All rapes are equally unacceptable. The punishment needs not to be based on the age of the victim, but the atrocity of the act itself. All victims deserve equal protection under the law in cases of sexual assault.

[Sgent]

43. With a few exceptions

(terrorism & war crimes with murder) I'm against the death penalty. I wouldn't be for it in this case.

That being said, IF I supported the death penalty in the case of Murder -- I would support it here as well.