What are we going to with the Taliban? (or ourselves?)

[meldroc]

I know that our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq is a complete disaster. I know that we do need to get the hell out of Iraq, but what about Afghanistan? What happens when we leave Afghanistan? The Taliban are very strong right now, and now they're doing things like this... (WARNING: very disturbing article.)

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2023831.ece?taliban

Basically, a schoolteacher was tortured and murdered publicly by the Taliban for daring to teach to young Afghan girls. We all know about the Taliban's rabid, barbaric misogynism. By their misinterpretation of Islam (yes, I know most Muslims aren't like that,) girls are to be left untaught, illiterate, and all women are to be treated like cattle.

I've totally lost it. I can't stand the idea of leaving barbaric sacks of shit like that in power over people. Must we leave Afghanistan before we've lanced that pus-filled boil on the ass of humanity? The Taliban are animals. The debased part of me says we should slaughter the Taliban like animals. Exterminate all of them so normal people can live in Afghanistan, and send their girls to school, and have fundamental human rights. The debased part of me says the Taliban have forfeited their right to be treated like human beings by murdering that schoolteacher, and we can't suffer them to live.

The same thing's happening in Darfur. And in Iraq. And elsewhere. And what makes me most sick is our own troops are doing shit like this. Endorsed and ordered by our fearless leaders. We shouldn't be committing acts like this. We should be protecting people from acts like this. That's why I thought we were going into Iraq, before my politics took a liberal turn, back before I knew better. I thought we were going in there not just to protect ourselves (I knew the WMD thing was bogus) but to save the people of Iraq from Saddam Hussein's brutality. And now people are suffering and dying even faster. I was fooled. I thought we were throwing a bucket of water on the fire, but that bucket turned out to have gasoline instead. Of course, we actually went there not for WMDs, or for Iraq's people, but for the oil. For conquest. We're just as barbaric as the fucking Taliban.

Now I'm totally frustrated. It boggles my mind to think that people are capable of doing things like that to other human beings. I can't rationalize shit like that. Methinks it's time to lance that pus-filled boil on the ass of humanity in Washington DC.

Thank you for listening to my incoherent rant.

[MuseRider]

1. It is difficult to remain

coherent after reading that.

[wuushew]

2. There is very little you can do

I suggest continuing to rebuild the transportation infrastructure and funding economic development projects that will raise the standard of living.

[Trajan]

3. Most liberals agreed with the push into Afghanistan ....

The numbers supporting the invasion of Afghanistan on BOTH sides of the political spectrum were huge ....

There has been no groundswell of anger towards the attempt to arrest those who killed 1000's of innocent human beings, not only at the WTC, but in numerous acts of barbarity across the world ....

I think the primary objection about the Afghanistan effort is how lackluster and ineffectual it has been ... It is as if they dont WANT to find anyone, or make any long term changes there ... And IF they arent going to 'go big' and make sure they will succeed, then what is the point of staying there ? ....

Iraq was not justified ... Afghanistan was justifed, but in either case: force should have been used to protect the general population .... not annihilate them ....

[LynnTheDem]

4. Actually the majority of the world opposed invading Afghanistan.

IMO attacking Afghanistan most certainly was NOT justified.

And it's spiralling down the toilet almost as fast as Iraq is.

Only all the "good news" in Iraq has obscured the reality & facts of bush's bullshit invasion of Afghanistan.

[fujiyama]

11. The majority of the US did support it however

and that includes a majority of liberals as well at the time.

And a large number of world governments believed the US did have a right to attack Al Qaeda training camps there as well. Many also agreed that overthrowing the Taliban was the right course of action.

The problem was the US relied on warlords and the incredible trustworthy Pakistanis and ISI to do it, put few American troops there, and didn't put the resources needed.

It was botched from the start, as a way to stall time before invading Iraq. If Blair had not told the US he wouldn't support Iraq otherwise, I doubt this administration would have invaded Afghanistan in the first place. They would have gone straight to Iraq.

[scarletwoman]

7. Not me! The invasion of Afghanistan was based on lies as well.

Few people remember (or even paid any attention at time) the fact that the Taliban offered to turn Osama Bin Laden over to an Islamic court in a third party country if the U.S. would just present its evidence that he was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

(Remember the "White Paper" that Colin Powell -- and Tony Blair -- promised was forthcoming that would lay out the case against Bin Laden? Remember how that "White Paper" never, ever appeared?)

At the time, the Taliban WAS the government of Afghanistan. We could have engaged in legitimate negotiations with them, government to government, and worked toward making some kind of deal for extraditing Osama and closing his training camps. It would have required some extremely skillful and delicate diplomacy, but the whole rest of the world would have been behind our efforts and would surely have assisted.

Resolving the Bin Laden problem did not necessitate dropping bombs on Afghanistan. Of course, that's assuming Bin Laden was actually responsible for 9/11 in the first place -- which is a whole other kettle of fish... Even so, negotiations and/or discreet special ops might have handled the problem just as well.

Overthrowing the Taliban government in Afghanistan sprang from other motives altogether. In the late 90s, representatives of the Taliban government had been feted in Houston by the Big Oil guys, in hopes of negotiating a natural gas pipeline deal. (see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm">Taleban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline ) The Taliban ultimately said "no thanks", which is the REAL reason they got marked down for "regime change".

sw

[Warpy]

5. LIke it or not, the Taliban present an improvement

over the US and the warlords. They will likely be welcomed back. Whether or not they manage to moderate their war against women is the question. My guess is that they eventually will, although the human cost in the meantime will be horrendous.

However, measured against the human cost of rule by warlords, it begins to look almost reasonable.

Please don't dismiss the Taliban as animals. They're ignorant and wrongheaded, but they represent stability and law that Afghanistan has rarely known. Like all radical regimes, they'll have to moderate over time or be overthrown, themselves.

As for Iraq, I'm sorry to say I didn't buy a word of the nonsense and I predicted everything that has happened. The only thing that hasn't yet happened is that the war hasn't yet spilled over into neighboring countries. If we stay there, it will.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Porcupine]

8. Arm the women.

Offer to feed the children of every afghan woman who takes up arms. If she's killed or disabled her children become American citizens. They form squads with one US female soldier as trainer/observer. Tell them they have no rules other that their own consciences. Let them find their own targets.


Allah armed women; why can't we.

[Xithras]

9. Very, very few Muslims like the Taliban. Even al Qaeda despised them.

The Taliban are considered to be religious innovators in most of the Muslim world, even among Muslim fundamentalists, and innovation in religious matters is strictly haraam (forbidden). Fundamentalist Muslims consider innovating Muslim sects like the Taliban or Sufi's to be even more dangerous than Christians or Jews, because innovators mask their false beliefs under an Islamic cloak, enabling them to lead Muslims away from "true" Islam.

The Taliban and al Qaeda co-existed in Afghanistan for one reason only...al Qaeda was there before the Taliban took power, and the Taliban realized that they didn't have the power to force them out. At the same time, while the Sunni fundamentalist al Qaeda groups declared the Taliban to be takfir (apostate non-Muslims) and prohibited their people from even talking to the Afghani's, al Qaeda didn't have the time, interest, or resources to wage a full scale war against the Taliban. So the two sides struck a truce...al Qaeda wouldn't get involved in Afghani internal politics if the Taliban agreed to leave the al Qaeda training camps alone.

FWIW, I was one of those who supported the invasion of Afghanistan (a LOT of people here supported it...it wasn't nearly as black and white as Iraq was), and I still agree that ousting the Taliban was a good thing. I completely blame Bush for blowing the occupation, for failing to unite the country under a reasonable government, and the re-descent into hell that the country is now taking. If Bush hadn't been in such a rush to invade Iraq, we'd have had the resourced to properly rebuild Afghanistan. Of course, Afganistan has no oil, so Bush wasn't interested.

[fujiyama]

10. I remember reading

that no one in the administration had any initial interest in invading Afghanistan. It was merely a side show, an appetizer for their real prize and main course - Iraq.

[LynnTheDem]

13. Oh but bush is managing to change that.

Taliban taking over
"The subsequent rising levels of extreme poverty have created increasing support for the Taliban...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HI08Df02.html

Taliban support grows in rural Afghanistan
"Day by day, support for the Taliban is increasing,"
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2006/11/14/2352244-cp.html

In search of the Taliban's missing link
Significantly, the Taliban are now drawing increasing support from the Afghan population.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HI16Df01.htm

[LynnTheDem]

12. We can't do what a growing number of Afghan citizens want, of course...

Taliban taking over
"The subsequent rising levels of extreme poverty have created increasing support for the Taliban...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HI08Df02.html

Taliban support grows in rural Afghanistan
"Day by day, support for the Taliban is increasing,"
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2006/11/14/2352244-cp.html

In search of the Taliban's missing link
Significantly, the Taliban are now drawing increasing support from the Afghan population.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HI16Df01.html

[leftofthedial]

14. what would you want the outcome to be there?

Unlike the bush cabal, we must not just start "doing" something. What would be the goal?