Look who owns U.S. debt now

[Target_For_Exterm]

"Other nations hold a record 52% of it, leaving U.S. economy vulnerable. For most of U.S. history, the national debt was something that America owed itself. What was borrowed by the government was lent by its people. The liabilities of one were the assets of the other."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20061201/cm_usatoday/lookwhoownsusdebtnow

The country no longer belongs to Americans. And if you dig deep into the security backing our national debt, it's backed by all property and monetary assets in the US - including yours and mine. So if we ever defaulted, I guess the Chinese could come and collect their pound of flesh from our assets. I guess "private property" doesn't really belong to you while our country is in debt. And I guess we'd be slaves to the Chinese economic machine.

:scared:

[spillthebeans]

1. Why do you think the King of Spain owns major roads in Texas?

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2006-06/artikel-6641294.asp

[rug]

2. Probably just wants them back.

[Ghost Dog]

4. Hahaha ROFL!

Nice one, thanks. :P

[SpiralHawk]

19. The claims of the spanish king are based on the pope's bull

the Inter Cetera Bull, to be precise

All land claims in north america are, as a matter of legal foundation, based on the papal bull

pretty flimsy excuse for ownership if you ask me

[MasonJar]

46. Didn't we take 1/3 of Mexico by force?

[and-justice-for-all]

14. dont forget Indiana...

..Spain and Australia have/own toll roads here.

[spillthebeans]

18. I've heard they are going to build 80 NAFTA Highways

but I don't know exactly where and to whom they will belong.


Welcome to Neo-Feudalism

[KAT119]

43. The NAFTA highways may belong to the North American Union

proposed by * and signed into law by Mexico, US and Canada. There is a huge superhighway being built now through Texas for this purpose, and Texans who know are furious.

A scary article on this is:http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2006/011206dollarfall.htm

[file83]

37. Same reason Bush re-joined us with UNESCO in 2002...

...and how Federal Lands are being given away as "UN World Heritage" sites - no longer in control of American Taxpayers. Hey, I'm all for environmentalism, but there is no reason we need to give control of land away to the UN just to manage it!

When you look at all the private & public lands being transferred over to the hands of so many foreign entities, you can only hope and pray that they aren't going to use it as leverage against us to influence (strong arm) our foreign policy.

[spillthebeans]

39. Ah, look there is a lot of green on the map, I can seee it

[Deja Q]

3. The good news is

If the American economy crumbles, theirs goes down with it.

[KAT119]

17. US Gov't spent $406 Billion of our taxes in 2006 on interest payments alone

to the holders of the National Debt-mostly China & Japan.

The National Debt is $8.6 TRILLION(!!!)--the entire world knows that we cannot pay it back.

We remember that * inherited a balanced federal budget--plus a SURPLUS--and a relatively peaceful world.

We were respected in the world of nations, by and large.

[spillthebeans]

20. it's a bit more

49 trillions because the Gov. keeps two sets of books

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/15/dobbs.august16/index.html

[KAT119]

42. You are correct, spillthebeans, my figures are the www.federalbudget.com

"cooked" numbers, like all this admin's ##. Thank you for clarity.

[CatholicEdHead]

5. Bet this gets buried in most of the press

No sense to bring up debt in the peak of the shopping season.

[unblock]

6. where do you get that public debt is backed by private property?

:shrug:

[spillthebeans]

8. I'm not sure but

the constitution has been pretty eroded


You have now eminent domain used for other purposes

<snip>
"To help protect property rights, Americans must push for a fair, originalist judge to be appointed to the Supreme Court when the next vacancy arises," he said.

Susette Kelo was among several residents who sued the city after officials announced plans to raze their homes for a riverfront hotel, health club and offices.

"I was in this battle to save my home and, in the process, protect the rights of working class homeowners throughout the country," Kelso said. "I am very disappointed that the court sided with powerful government and business interests, but I will continue to fight to save my home and to preserve the Constitution."

The debate centered on the scope of the Fifth Amendment, which allows governments to take private property through eminent domain if the land is for "public use."

Until now, that has been interpreted to mean projects such as roads, schools and urban renewal. But New London officials argued that the private development plans served a public purpose of boosting economic growth, even though the area was not blighted.
<snip>

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44958


Then there is the 14th Amendment, were it states

Amendment 14
SECTION 4

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

[Target_For_Exterm]

22. Public debt is an indirect debt of taxpayers.

An example scenario:

The US deficit explodes and international creditors demand immediate payment in real assets (rather than an inflated and worthless dollar). What is the government going to pay with?

In addition, even if the government merely ran out of investors willing to buy it's new debt, the government could compensate by increasing your taxes. The IRS DOES have the right to seize your private property for tax indebtedness.

It would be politically impossible, but Congress could pass a law demanding immediate repayment of the public debt. The IRS assesses your $28,000 per person in your family, and arranges seizure of all your property to pay the debt.

There was an article I read somewhere that specifically mentioned that public debt was backed by all US assets, public and private, but I haven't been able to find it yet.

[unblock]

23. i don't dispute that the federal government can raise money via taxes

and in that sense has the power to extract private wealth in order to pay down its public debt.

but that is a very different statement from saying that the public debt is "backed by" private assets. THAT would imply that public debtholders had a legal right to go after private assets if the federal government were to default. and i do NOT think that is the case.

[Selatius]

26. I would think assets will be seized anyway.

After the gov't defaults on debt payments, the value of the Dollar deflates tremendously once news hits world markets. Gov'ts will be desperate to dump US bonds to protect against the economic fallout. Because the US Dollar is worth nothing, that means everything in the US is also worth nothing. How will bond holders who lost out get compensation? They buy up US assets for pennies on the dollar, like vultures picking a carcass clean.

[unblock]

27. uh, no.

private assets can't be bought unless the owners are willing to sell.

if the us defaults on its debt and the usd becomes worthless, then private assets would only be sold for real currencies like the euro perhaps. land is land, factories are factories. they don't become worthless just because the local currency is worthless.

[Selatius]

28. The answer is most definitely a yes.

What happened in Argentina in the late 1990s is a classic case of what happens during default. When Argentina defaulted on its 100 billion dollar debt load to creditors like the IMF and the World Bank, the hit was taken out through the currency exchange markets. Their currency became a fraction of what it once was relative to other currencies. Because their assets are priced in that particular currency, then to foreigners they became that much cheaper to buy. While their currency wasn't exactly worth 0 after their dollar crashed, it was worth a whole lot less than it was before it. To admit, "worthless" was hyperbole.

From the outside looking in, everything looks a lot cheaper with dollar devaluation. From the inside though, things would still be valued roughly the same, the major exception being imported goods, because the dollars in your pocket devalued at the same rate that everybody else's did. However, if you held Euros or US Dollars in your pocket when Argentina defaulted, your purchasing power within that country actually increased, with that comes an increased capacity to buy up goods, assets, and even firms.

Because nations don't "declare bankruptcy," then this is what happens: Assets/firms in your country are either bought up by foreigners or they become the target of hostile takeovers and attempted takeovers by foreign investors looking to profit off the situation after they note their purchasing power increased in the market in which currency devaluation occurred. Sometimes you are bought out against your will. In the mid 1980s when the US dollar began to devaluate at a rapid pace due to massive deficit spending under Reagan, Japanese investors began to actually buy up Manhattan real estate when they noted their purchasing power increased in the US market.

Currently, 1 Euro = roughly 1.32 USD at the last time I checked.

Let's say you operate a firm that you'd be willing to sell at 500,000 USD. To a European, this means he'd have to pay you the equivalent of 378,750 of his Euros now to get your firm. If the US defaults on debt payments and the USD is now worth only half a Euro, he'd only have to fork over the equivalent of 250,000 of his Euros for your firm when he converts over into USD, and he'd still have 128,750 left over. You still see 500,000 USD with your eyes going into your pocket, but he only had to convert 250,000 of his Euros to get your firm.

I remember 1 Euro used to roughly equal 1 USD, and sometimes the USD was worth more at certain points. Those days went bye-bye roughly the time when Bush began running deficits after his foolish tax cuts for Bill Gates and Paris Hilton types.

[unblock]

30. i agree with this scenario, thanks for the clarification

my dispute was with words like "seized", which imply a legal backing that doesn't exist.

[EVDebs]

7. Read Kevin Phillip's Wealth and Democracy

"You can have great wealth or a democracy, but you cannot have both"-- Brandeis

[Cleita]

10. Hmmm.

There is an article in Scientific American that points to scientific evidence that the so-called social democracies of Scandanavian countries are very wealthy economies and the least among them is well taken care of with social programs like NHC. I'll try to dig up the link for you.

On edit: The link I promised:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A9F183414B7F0000&ref=sciam

[EVDebs]

25. A non-scientific view from a non-conservative. You might be surprised

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"

-Matthew 25:41-45

Destroying the 'welfare state' means the law of the jungle. We're bigger than that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Please don't foreclose. Honest, the check is in the mail.

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." V.I. Lenin

[noconz]

36. I'd reply but...

...I'm too busy choking (ACK!)

[spillthebeans]

11. I have to think of Blade Runner

http://www.thewallpapers.org/download.php?wallz=num6501

I always wondered why everything in the future was Chinese

[file83]

33. That would explain why L.A. is so polluted in the future:

Chinese Environmental law is an oxymoron.

Excellent movie by the way.

[Selatius]

12. Defaulting means the US dollar becomes so cheap foreigners could...

come in and essentially buy up all the firms as "compensation." If the US dollar was worth 1/10th of what it is now, it would be very easy for Europeans, for instance, to buy up firms of comparable size to ones in Europe for the mere fact that everything in the US is worth a fraction of that back home.

The day when the US is no longer able to meet monthly debt payments on government bonds owned by foreign governments, US citizens, and foreign individuals is the day the US is finished as an independent country. It will be owned by somebody else, and Americans will wake up working not for fellow wealthy Americans who don't give a damn about their well-being but wealthy foreigners who still don't give a damn about their well-being.

[and-justice-for-all]

15. The Euro, as of yesterday...

..Has surpassed the US dollar in value. According to DW-Journal that is...The dollar fell, again.

[Selatius]

21. It's already been that way for several years now.

1 Euro is now equal to 1.32 US Dollars.

They used to be comparable in value.

[Mz Pip]

13. I guess I don't have to worry

abut being invaded by China! I guess that's a good thing. :sarcasm:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[MGD]

16. Have you seen the Century 21 real estate commercial?

The one where the centry 21 real estate agent meets the young Chinese couple at the airport and impresses them my speaking to them in their native tongue...right before he sells foreclosed American properties to them. That's how it will go down. The Chinese army isn't going to come in and enforce Chinese will at gun point. The Chinese government will subsidize the private purchase of American property and infrastructure with the over abundance of US dollars that they own and our government will facillitate it. We will be "pwned".

[file83]

34. That commercial was a bit strange. I was trying to figure out who their target

audience was... Because it certainly wasn't Americans born locally.
:wtf:

[Hissyspit]

24. and this mostly happened during Bush II administration. n/t

[lonestarnot]

29. This has been going on for years, right under everone's noses and noone

paid any attention.

[whatelseisnew]

31. mass media complicity

[90-percent]

32. hmmmm

Nobody but nobody is talking or writing about this in MSM. But you can bet that when the bubble bursts all our educated MSM pundits are gonna tell us why it happened. AFTER THE FACT. They should be telling us all how dangerous the national debt is RIGHT NOW.

Somebody out there in the MSM machinery should be reporting RIGHT NOW how precarious the NATIONAL DEBT has made the SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES!

And why would our leadership, WHICH VALUES NATIONAL SECURITY SO MUCH THEY'LL WILLING TO SHRED THE CONSTITUTION TO KEEP US "SAFE", be so fucking reckless with cranking up the national debt to ludicrous levels?

Is more TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY so important as to put our NATIONAL SECURITY AT RISK? The treacherous cretins running our country seem to think so!

-85% Jimmy

[MattSh]

38. Uh, no way man!!

The "educated MSM pundits" are part of the looting class. If they informed us about what was really going on, there would be less for them to loot because there would be 10 times as many participants in the looting. You seem to assume that they are looking out for us!!

[lonestarnot]

47. Hey, can I ask what that block of rapidly advancing block of letters

says? I'm too old to figure it out. :toast: And you make a very good point!

[MattSh]

48. It says "You are not a slave".

I'm sure you know that already. But there's a lot of people who don't.

[noconz]

35. So true...

Of course, nothing belongs to you when you're in debt; depending on the percentages, you're always vulnerable. I recently discovered that some German bank actually owns my house...

[ChittyChittyBangBang]

40. This is foolish

How do you suggest the Chinese or anyone else is going to come and seize the collateral, and collect their debt? Are they going to send their Navy? Hahahahah!

[Target_For_Exterm]

41. They could cut off their exports to the US...

We have no manufacturing left in the US. Without cheap imports, we have no economy. Sad, but true.

[ChittyChittyBangBang]

44. They would be doing us a favor by cutting us off.

Time to rebuild our industry.

[Richard Steele]

45. OOOOOkay........