All you withdrawal-timeline and stay-the-course types!

[leftofthedial]

Think of it this way.

If Iraqis had revolted against Saddam and tried to free themselves from the totalitarian, tyrranical Baathist regime, it would have taken a civil war. Chaos and violence much like what we see now would have ensued. There would have been even more deaths among the Iraqi populace than we've seen in the last three years. The Shia, Sunni and Kurdish power bases are not artifacts of our illegal invasion; they have been there for a millenium or longer.

Our presence is not helping the Iraqis. We are part of the cycle of violence. Just about the only thing that nearly all Iraqis seem to agree on is that they want us to leave.

Of course there will be violence if we leave. There will be violence if we stay. There will be interference from others in the region if we leave. There is interference now. The death, destruction and violence are, sadly, a natural part of Iraq finding its own way as a nation, out from under the thumb of a despotic ruler.

We should leave immediately. We can stay involved diplomatically and financially when that makes sense. But our military and all the carpetbaggers need to leave immediately.

[shadowknows69]

1. You're absolutely right

and I'm absolutely sure it won't happen until hundreds more die. Sorry about the pessimism but it's clear Bush isn't even going to consider it.

[Redstone]

2. The death, destruction, and violence are BECAUSE WE FUCKING INVADED!

We started this.

Who's to say it would have been as bad if they overthrew Hussein themselves? You simply cannot justify that supposition on ANY rational or logical grounds.

It's OUR fault.

Redstone

[leftofthedial]

3. we agree. But imagine, if you will, for a moment

that the Iraqis had revolted against Saddam and attempted to overthrow him without our illegal invasion.

I think an argument could be made that, while probably less infrastructure would have been destroyed, an even greater amount of carnage would have resulted.

In other words, for Iraqis to find political and cultural equilibrium WITHOUT a despotic dictator would require the same kind of chaos and violence we see now.

If we leave or if we stay, the violence will happen. All we do by staying is prolong it, complicate any solution and any process that might lead to a solution, and inflict the violence on our soldiers and their families.

You are right. It is our fault. The question is "now what?"

[UrbScotty]

4. It's NOT *WE* who invaded and caused this mess

It's Mr. 31% and his minions.

[Redstone]

5. Well, there is that. You're right.

Redstone

[Warren Stupidity]

6. No sadly it was us.

Our representatives in congress, or at least enough of them, voted to permit this atrocity to commence. Our party ran on: stay the course must succeed we will give you a better managed war crime in 2004, much to my chagrin. We all have blood on our hands here.