In 2002, there were 1.29 million abortions--If men got pregnant, there would have been a billion.

[trumad]

I've always framed my argument that if men got pregnant, abortion would be as common as getting an oil change. I am simply sick and tired of men sticking their fucking noses into what is purely the sole business of the woman herself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/18/AR2005071801164.html

[cspanlovr]

1. If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. The men

I've known (who are anti-choice) would NEVER (suddenly) interrupt their lives. Most won't get off the couch in a fire.

[MountainLaurel]

7. You've got that right

I just had a vision of my dad sitting in his La-Z-Boy while the living room went up in flames around him, yelling at my mom to put the fire out.

[MotorCityMan]

23. If men got pregnant, abortion would be a God-given right...

Birth control would be available EVERYwhere, and they would get an extra week off for their "time of the month".

I first noticed years ago in my local paper (Detroit Free Press) that any time that they had letters to the editor re: abortion, at least 70% would be from males.

I could never understand this, as men will never go through the situation of being saddled with an unwanted pregnancy.

[yy4me]

2. Here, Here, you are absolutely right.

Not only the pain, but the anxiety, not just the discomfort, but the responsibility. Men would sit back and reassess their stand on this issue if they were the ones that were pregnant. Women are and should be totally responsible for their bodies and what is done with and to them. It should not be a negotiable issue. Not men, not the church, not the government. Women..plain and simple.

[Missy M]

3. Thank you Trumad....

it has always been my stance that this is strictly an issue for women and men have no business trying to change the law or make decisions for women.

[Richardo]

6. Then I respectfully request the women stay out of the circumcision debate

Fair's fair.

[Missy M]

10. Gladly.....

I have never been in a circumcision debate and doubt if I ever will be. With all due respect, I don't think the issues can compare.

[Richardo]

12. Every time I hear it debated, it's *always* women talking about it

[tigereye]

74. that's interesting, isn't it?

I think male partners should have a say in abortions if the partners are compatible and there is no safety issue. But I guess I don't like the idea of that being legislated. In the long run, it is the woman's body that is carrying the baby.....


as for circumcision, that's usually a joint parental decision, but it does seem that more women pay attention to it, at least initially.

[knitter4democracy]

109. Well, I have strong feelings about it because it's my son.

The doctor asked me, just hours after I'd pushed out our son, if I wanted him to take my boy into another room, clamp him down, and rip off his foreskin. Yeah, that one I'll fight. When my son is old enough to make his own decisions about his body, then he can decide if he wants to be circumcised.

I don't mind men in abortion debates--it's about their lives, too. If a woman chooses not to get an abortion, and even decides to keep the baby, then he has to pay child support and be connected to that child. If he has been wanting a child, and the mother chooses to get an abortion, I can understand why he'd be upset. That's why it's a touchy subject.

[Fierce]

Why?

Baby girls' genitals are mutilated, too.

[bloom]

102. I don't know of women who are suggesting men should get circumcisions.

That is what would be more comparable. (Although it really isn't the same at all).


Not discussions about infants.


But some men don't think women should express their opinions whether it's fair or not.

[flvegan]

4. If men could get pregnant, birth control would be foolproof, free and taught

in grade school, junior high and high school. Preventative surgery would be as common as a flu shot. Abortions would be available at any clinic, and the services heavily advertised on tv, the net, radio and on the back of the yellow pages.

That is, of course, unless you're gay. A man, impregnated by another man would likely be burned at the stake.

[smoogatz]

95. Wouldn't ALL men who got impregnated have to be impregnated by men?

Or are we assuming that if men get pregnant, women have the penises? I'm getting a slight headache here...

[durrrty libby]

5. trumad I am right there with you

I want to become violent when I see the nauseating politicians and preachers blathering on about

abortion

I always end up yelling..." It is none of your fucking business. STFU!!!"

[Greybnk48]

8. Thank you Trumad, you are so right. n/t

[Bonobo]

9. Jeezus! Why make such an obnoxious post!?

It's such male-bashing flamebait and such bullshit!

Talk about outmoded thinking...

I suppose men can't be good daddies either.

Why don't you go rent a copy of Ahnold's Daddy Daycare or something. That will reinforce your progressive beliefs.

ON EDIT: I agree that it is primarily a women's issue, but why be so insulting and wrong-headed with your post? Do you just exist for flamebait? You make no converts with that kind of rhetoric.

[musette_sf]

11. did I miss the SARCASM smiley in your post?

i sure hope so.

[Bonobo]

14. Not at all. Why would you say that?

Do YOU think men care less for children or humanity?

Are we ALL just lazy killers? Furthermore, if evolution HAD led us to be the bearers of children, don't you think we would be more specialized for it, like women?

[QuestionAll...]

17. oiy, this one went Waaaay over your head, didn't it?

how in the world do you come up with that one - the accusation that men care less for children or humanity?

[Bonobo]

20. How did YOU miss that?

OP and other posters say that for men, abortion would be a "sacrament"? Billions would be performed...

Why? Obviously because we are such selfish, lazy creatures. Tell me how I misread THAT?

[QuestionAll...]

25. it's a reasonable assumption, I think

that if men carried the babies, men like Rumsfeld and Cheney wouldn't want to be inconvenienced from their war planning with a sticky out belly, and swollen feet and the general discomfort that comes with the process.

and lord forbid if the baby came at a presidential medal ceremony for the egos.

[Bonobo]

28. There are not a billion men "like Rumsfeld"

And the OP should have been more clear noto label all men with such an obnoxious statement.

I have 3 children that I love more than life, than I have re-ordered every aspect of my life around.

THAT is why I was insulted. Many men aspire to better and to balance sexual inequality only to feel bashed, abused and deflated when they read posts like this. At least that's how it made me feel.

[QuestionAll...]

39. I'm sorry you are personally hurt by this...

I don't think Anyone is challenging you on your devotion to your family or your aspirations.

but please consider how hurtful it is to have laws, made mostly by men, that hurts me, my daughters, my family, my friends, and have hurt my mother and her grandmothers greatly.

[durrrty libby]

27. "Are we ALL just lazy killers?"

That gets the loaded question of the day award



Take out the word all and replace with

"humongous amount of"!

[QuestionAll...]

13. why would the OP be insulting to You personally?

I think it's meant for the suited and robed fat bastards that make unjust laws.

[Bonobo]

15. I never said it was a personal insult.

But if I started a post that said that women were all freeloaders and if it weren't for men, everyone would go hungry because women don't want to work and just want to be pampered in their nests, you would justifiably be insulted, I think.

FYI: I do not believe the above to be true.

[QuestionAll...]

19. well, if women had a 'freeloader' organ, like a womb...

is an organ, then maybe...

edited for clarity.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Hear Hear.

The notion is ridiculous.

[donsu]

21. I'm watering your flamebait attempt

nt

[Bonobo]

22. Hee hee, I was thinking about it but decided not to..

Here's what it was going to be:

"Women have more freedom to not work in this country than men. Men have no such choice."

What do you think. Should I have done it?

BTW, I think neither of us gives the other enough credit. I, for my part, have come to view you in a better light than previously and now I know that this is just your "hot topic" that gets you PISSED.

[MindPilot]

33. I think you should have

But it brings up another point. It's always about abortion; women don't actively campaign for development of male birth control which could seriously reduce unwanted pregnancies and the need for abortion. Why?

[donsu]

50. I was watering what you said - I think your thinking is all wet

nt

[Bonobo]

93. Umm, is English your native language?

[Greyhound]

35. You choose to be insulted and that is your problem. Wrong headed

is just pathetic invective. The day we have 'em is the day we get to decide, until then it is our job to support her decision.

[novalib]

18. ONLY 1 Billion?!?!?!?!

If men were able to get pregnant, there would likely be more than 1 billion abortions!!!

There would be 2 or 3 Billion -- and the government would pay for every one of them!!!

And no man would be ashamed of having an abortion!

[youthere]

24. Not too mention the fact that all birth control options would be covered by insurance.

[QuestionAll...]

29. and free day care and nannies. ;) nt

[MindPilot]

26. If women want to be the sole arbitrators of reproductive decisions

don't expect a man to write you a check every month for a child YOU chose to have.

Please, take your man-bashing shit back the "women's rights" forum.

[lukasahero]

30. You do realize that trumad's profle notes he is a male, right?

Or is it just so much easier for you to blame women for everything?

[MindPilot]

43. Please elaborate on exactly which "everything" I blamed women for.

or are you projecting a little bit?

[lukasahero]

46. I expected the denial but whatever. eom

[Stargazer99]

31. Has it ever occured to you to just zipper it up and keep it zippered?

That is a sure fire way of not fearing child support, etc. If you play you pay, you are not the only one affect by your conduct. What makes you think you have an inalienable right to sex without being responsible for the outcome?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QuestionAll...]

44. what a low down nasty thing to say...

but I see from your other posts, you just are.
are you a manslut by any chance?

[MindPilot]

59. Let the name-calling begin!!

Sorry I'm not taking that bait.

[QuestionAll...]

63. I just have problems with the word 'whore'

and all the baggage and connotations attached to it.

been trying not to use it as thoughtlessly as I may have in the past, but here you made me say it!! ya bastard!
:)

[ThomCat]

84. That's a funny thing to say after your previous post.

x(

[Crandor]

41. Do you favor an abortion ban?

If not, why is your "That slut should have just kept her legs together"-type argument not applicable to women?

[MindPilot]

47. Absolutely not. I have done many many hours on the front lines.

I've worked as a clinic escort; I am one of the stanchest advocates of women's rights you'll find.

BUT I get really irritated at the idea that men should be completely excluded from the debate and the decision, especially when it is the men in a majority of the cases who end up shouldering the financial responsibility of unwanted pregnancies. I also get really pissed off at the standard feminist mantra that all men are lazy, violent, exploitive, stupid, uncaring, the list goes on.

[Crandor]

51. sorry, I meant to reply to Stargazer99. nt

[ThomCat]

55. So you support choice

as long as only women are liable for the costs of making that choice?

That's sick.

[ComerPerro]

66. he is absolutely right, though. After all, having the child is a choice.

And, honestly, if the woman has just as much control over whether she "zips it up"

[fudge stripe cookays]

32. If men want to be the sole arbitrators...

of how many offspring they have, they need to have vasectomies, dear.

NO ONE tells me how many kids to have. NOBODY.

[QuestionAll...]

34. seems like a lot of those cheques are 'in the mail'

seeing as the poverty rate for single moms is so high.

[MindPilot]

37. Then why did those single moms have sex with a deadbeat?

Who made that choice?

[QuestionAll...]

54. why are deadbeats allowed to have sex?

I think there should be a program - all men should have enough resources, confirmed by financial institutions, to support possible children til the age of 18, in order to be able to have sex.

sounds about as logical to me.

[ThomCat]

56. That choice was probably (hopefully) mutual.

There were two people there having sex. So both of them are responsible for the child.

[Clark2008]

45. Biology gave us that right - period.

It has given you the right to have better-paying jobs, more opportunities and better education without the risk of it compromising your family life.

This is the ONE aspect where women DO get to make the decision. ONE.

Cry me a river. :eyes:

[MindPilot]

52. Do you access the Internet with a time machine?

Because it sounds like you're from the fifties.

[ThomCat]

57. So now you're claiming that sexism doesn't exist?

That women don't make less money than men? That women aren't still mostly pushed into pink collar jobs?

What world are you living in?

[MindPilot]

64. you seem to be pretty good at deciding what I think

:eyes:

Stop making assumptions.

[ThomCat]

85. Then stop spouting redulous sexist crap.

x(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. why dont you just take better care of every sperm you choose to spill into someone elses body?

[kiahzero]

58. That argument never ends well. (n/t)

[ThomCat]

60. I think it's a good argument

and I'm a guy.

If someone thinks that women should be 100% liable and responsible for choosing to have a child (including bearing the entire cost) then why shouldn't men be 100% liable for choosing to have sex?

[Crandor]

65. Here's a better one

Since women are allowed to have sex with minimal financial repercussions, why shouldn't men be?

[QuestionAll...]

71. minimal financial repercussions?

and what planet are you reporting this from...?
maybe I misundertood.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. how is raising a child minimal financial repurcussions?

time is money. if i invest time into a child, where i could be making a career instead, i am losing money. how is this not a financial repercussion?

[QuestionAll...]

76. other repercussions as well.

too much assumption that mothers have a choice of raising a family OR having a career/job outside the home. Too many Have to do both.

[Crandor]

79. it isn't - an abortion is

A woman can choose to have an abortion. If she does not, the man cannot choose; he is forced to pay for the child. Clearly this is a power imbalance - and while I could probably think of some justification of it, I have not seen any adequate ones here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

83. how about relligious women who think abortion is murder...

should they be forced to abort because some guy doesnt want to pay for his child?

[Crandor]

89. Then they can pay for it themselves

And if they can't afford it, well, having children isn't a right. There's only so much choice to go around.

[ThomCat]

91. LOL! Minimal financial repercussions?

When did that suddenly happen? Last I checked, women bore the brunt of the cost of raising children. Their careers suffer when they have kids, while having kids tends to enhance a man's career. Women end up having to take the time off to care for kids and manage their kids' lives. And single moms pay far more to raise kids than the fathers.

And that is after women have to pay for and manage the birth control, because most many men won't bother with condoms. Women have to suffer the side effects/risks of birth control, and any cost that comes with it.

Where do you see minimal financial repercussions?

[ComerPerro]

69. because if a man is 100% liable for the decision, its rape

[MindPilot]

I had a vasectomy when I was 21.

Should I cut my dick off too?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. well then you dont have a problem, do you? i wasnt asking about you personally

i was just pointing out that your argument is fallacious.

[MindPilot]

62. dupe

[QuestionAll...]

67. I see you had two.. first one didn't take? ;)

[ThomCat]

53. Oh get over it.

As a guy I recognize 2 important truths.

1. It's her body, and I have no right to force any woman to either carry a child to term or have an abortion against her will. If I get a woman pregnant I'll certainly talk to her and try to be a part of the decision but ultimately, It's Her Body.

2. Regardless of what choice she makes, If i'm responsible for her pregnancy then I'm responsible for the results of that pregnancy. If she chooses to carry that child to term then then I'm responsible for that child.

Just because she could, if she chooses, have an abortion and prevent me from having 21 years of financial responsibility doesn't mean she's required to.

Guys who say, "It's your choice, so I'm out of here" are the same guys who would find any possible reason to not take responsibility.

[ComerPerro]

73. here's the thing: A lot of men get shut out if the relationship goes bad

and then are forced to pay for a child that the woman chose to have. And you know what? They never get to see the child. I personally know someone in that situation.

[QuestionAll...]

78. is it 'a lot', or one person you know?

which is it?
just asking as I really don't know the stats.
what I do know is that often people apply their own personal knowledge/experience to create their own statistics.

[ComerPerro]

81. even one is too many. And its pretty common for men to get shafted in divorce

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. well that can always be handled in a court...courts typically dont deny men their rights

[ScreamingMeemie]

82. Don't expect us to let you in our pants then.

[Az]

88. Clarity

It is the act of two people that initiate the development of a fetus. It is the right of one of those people to control their body that enables them to end that development. If the male (inclusive) wants to exercise his right not to be burdened with a child his moment of descision takes place near the moment of coitus. After that he only has the right to make suggestions. Yes it creates a different set of rights for a woman. But no one said biology was built around the notion of balancing rights between the genders.

If you have sex with a woman and she gets pregnant you have the right to suggest to her that she should get an abortion. You can make the argument as convincing as you want. But you do not have control of her body. Ever. Period(irony noted).

[Crandor]

97. Where has anyone said men should be able to force women to have abortions? nt

[Az]

98. This is a very old argument

It is aimed at the inbalance of rights in the choice issue. Namely that men do not have a choice once the woman is pregnant. Forgive me if I leapt ahead to the punchline of this discussion.

[hfojvt]

38. absolutely, and if men were required to work in coal mines or fight wars

those would be totally safe too, because the world has been designed so that nothing unpleasant ever happens to you if you have a Y chromosome.

[QuestionAll...]

48. men are peons to the controllers too.

coal mines = corporate profit on the backs of the peasants so CEOs can buy an extra yacht or four.
wars = cannon fodder for corporate profit on the backs of the peasants so CEOs can buy an extra dictator or three.

we are all equal in the respect of being used. Time we came to an agreement on this.

[ComerPerro]

68. LOL

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. see you are mixing class inequalities: if ALL Men could get pregnant, RICH men would as well

this would create a different situation from things that effect only poor men.

[hfojvt]

99. not really, because theoretically rich men could be drafted too

Rich men would find ways to deal with THEIR own pregnancies way before they would take the trouble to help their fellow men.

"Law, what do I care about law, ain't I got the power?" Cornelius Vanderbilt

"I don't know as I want a lawyer to tell me I can't do something. I hire lawyers to help me find ways to do what I want to do." JP Morgan

[Greyhound]

40. K & R

:kick:

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. male and female views on abortions are about equal

August 2005 poll - Abortion should be:
Generally available - Men 34%, Women 35%
More limited - Men 24%, Women 21%
Illegal except rape/incest/save life of mother - Men 32%, Women 31%
Never permitted - Men 8%, Women 11%

No Battle of the Sexes

Age, education and religion each plays a strong role in informing people's views on the issue. But despite conventional wisdom, sex does not. Indeed, as usual, men and women support legal abortion in roughly equal numbers: 54 percent of men, and 58 percent of women, say it should be legal in all or most cases. In the various conditions tested, moreover, men and women express virtually identical views:


Favoring Abortion: Men Versus Women
Situation Men Women
All or Most Cases 54% 58
To Save Woman's Life 88 88
To Save Woman's Health 82 83
In Cases of Rape/Incest 80 81
Physically Impaired Baby 53 55
To End Unwanted Pregnancy 43 40
D&X/Partial-Birth Abortions 28 19
Pregnancy is 6 Months+ 15 8

Jan 2003 poll

So where does this "men would have many more abortions" meme come from? So many DUers seem to accept it without question. Do these DUers think men would be much keener on abortion than women are in real life?

[trumad]

101. It comes from common sense

The whole point of my Op is to point out the hypocrisy of the men who try and shut off choice for women.

Sure it's a moral issue and sure there are some men who wouldn't have an abortion for moral reasons....

BUT can you honestly tell me that we'd have the same debate if men could bear children? Come on----

As for the men bashing alarmists up above.... Whaaa Whaaaa Whaaaa...... Ya typically hop into threads like this and cry a river with just how bad us guys have it. You may have it bad because of a slight taint of misogyny---but not me. We deserve the bashing for all the bashing we've done throughout history.

[Bonobo]

104. Meow, meow, meow.

[trumad]

106. There aint no doubt in my mind that you would be the first in line

would ya?

[Bonobo]

107. I like being first.

So now that I have your attention, why did you write such an insulting OP?

I understand your intended point, but why not state it better?

Or better yet, why not just shut up and work on your own stunted spiritual development?

[trumad]

108. I guess so I can offend exactly 3 people out of the 103 who posted

Let me ask you---why is you skin so thin? If this was so offensive then why do a vast majority of the folks who posted in this thread agree with me?

I chuckle at the thought that the 2 or 3 who are whining are guys... Poor guys... so misunderstood...

[philosophie_en_rose]

61. Doubtful. We'd still have hypocrites.

that advocate for anti-choice legislation, and then sneak off to have abortions of their own.

[ComerPerro]

75. So how is it, exactly, that such deliberate flamebait threads never get locked?

[donsu]

90. this thread was not flamebait, that's why

nt

[trumad]

105. deliberate

My God--- who is getting flamed? Men--- LOL

[Ex Lion Tamer]

77. Sorry, but your argument is wrong.

For pro-choice men, this is a civil rights issue. Consequently, they should be able "stick their fucking noses into" it.

And while some anti-choice men are certainly hypocritical and misogynist, there are also others who truly believe this also to be a moral and civil rights issue. They have the right to be heard also--even if we don't agree with them.

In this country, we all get to participate in the public debate. And that's a wonderful thing.

[AngryAmish]

87. Of course you are right - because men hate children

There is no way a man would bear a child because they all hate children.

And women can't do math.

Way to go, Larry!

[Kelly Rupert]

92. If men got pregnant, they'd be women,

with all their secondary-sex characteristics. Meaningless statement.

[dysfunctional press]

94. based on what, exactly...?

people who play the "if" game definitely have too much time on their hands.

[Hippo_Tron]

96. I agree with the premise but 1 billion abortions in a year is physically impossible in a year

There are only 300 million people in the United States. Unless you are speaking internationally.

[angstlessk]

100. I have always said "if me got pregnant" barbar shops would perform abortions

Hey, Willie, how bout a shave and haircut..oh, yeah, I got this growth you can take care of too, while your at it. Bada boom bada bing...no more pregnancy!

[porphyrian]

103. If men could get pregnant, there would be virtually no unwanted pregnancies.

Women would still have to be the ones taking a drug, probably, though.

[Moderator]

110. Locking

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html