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George W. Bush: The Country's Neurotic Parent?

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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:24 PM
Original message
George W. Bush: The Country's Neurotic Parent?
Edited on Mon Dec-04-06 03:30 PM by Plaid Adder
Those of you who have neurotic parents, I have a hypothesis I want to test out on you guys.

I was talking to my partner the other day about what it's like growing up with a neurotic parent. "Neurotic" is a word that covers a lot of ground; basically we were using it to mean a parent who operates according to a set of beliefs about the world or about human beings and society which are not borne out by the kid's own experiences. For instance, my partner's mother has a lot of ideas about how germs are spread which are not based on any medical principle known to man, and this led to some craziness in terms of what she would and wouldn't let her kids do when they were growing up. My own mother's neuroses were more along the lines of selective memory, revisionist history, and disavowing her own words and actions. (Both mothers, I should say, seem to have mellowed out considerably once the kids were out of the house.)

Anyway, one of the things I was saying is that I think the worst and longest-lasting effect of growing up with a neurotic parent is the confusion and anger that the kids experience as they try to cope with the mismatch between their own perceptions of reality and their parents'. Outside the home, there's one reality; but at home, they are forced to either deny that reality in order to play along with their parents, or constantly confront and defy their parents in an attempt to force them to acknowledge the fantastic nature of their own beliefs about the real world. For kids who take option #2, as my partner did, one of the hardest things to accept is the fact that the parent simply cannot be argued out of these beliefs, no matter how much evidence and logic you mobilize against them--because they cling to these beliefs for emotional and psychological reasons that are stronger than rational argument.

Then I said, I think the entire country has experienced this during the Bush presidency. "Entire country" less the 29% who share his neuroses, that is. But the point is: it's become more obvious as time goes on that part of the problem with this administration is that they actually believe many of the preposterous and insane ideas that they have used to sell their disastrous foreign policies. Rumsfeld really believed that we would win the Iraq war speedily and with minor inconvenience based on a revolutionary new approach to war in which the post-invasion phase plan basically broke down to "await showers of rose petals, then depart as grateful populace waves and sings songs of blessing in the background." Bush really believes, apparently, that he can win the war simply by refusing to admit that he's lost it. Karl Rove really believed, evidently, that as long as they could play with images and keep tilting the electoral machinery, he would be able to maintain a permanent Republican majority in Congress. For all we know, Cheney may really believe that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. After this long feeding on the blood of the living, I think he's probably gone mad enough that he could believe just about anything.

So anyway, my hypothesis is that for six years, most of America has had the experience of having to negotiate between the reality they live in and the reality constructed by the Bush administration, and been forced to come up with a variety of different coping strategies. Like kids with neurotic parents, we are not able to force the authorities to see that their version of reality is wack; and as for kids with neurotic parents, the choice to confront and challenge rather than to play along came attached to fairly punitive consequences. Which might explain why so many people in this country appeared, for so long, to be going nuts themselves. This is a very painful position to be in, and people who aren't used to it often take a long time before they work out a strategy for dealing with it that will protect themselves, psychologically and practically, from the dangers represented by neurosis at the top of the power structure.

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing from people who had parents like this whether they have noticed the same resonances between their own family situation and the country's situation. I normally don't put too much stock in psychological explanations for things; but hey, as long as the entire world has been drawn into the Bush family's little Oedipal drama, maybe we should think about some of the other ways in which we have had the Bush crowd's issues worked out on us.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. The entire GOP strategy
can be summarised by comparing it to the automitive company if they had fired all their engineers and replaced then with marketting reps. Sure the cars they make would sell like crazy, but they wouldn't work.

Ever since Nixon the GOP has been selling presidents. As such the package a model that has a charsimatic exterior but nothing on the inside. Nixon taught them to never let go of the reigns again. Unfortunately the best sales people within the GOP turned out to be the NeoCons and the GOP wound up losing control of the monster they created.

A recent study showed that the more psychotic a person was the more likely they were to support George Bush. This isn't surpising. And no it doesn't mean all George's supporters are psychotic. What it tells us is that they want confidence. And that is what the GOP/NeoCons are selling. And thats why they are called Con Artists. Because they sell Confidence.

This is the problem we have. We want to sell complex ideas. Messy realities. Shades of greys instead of clear cut black and whites. Sorry but any marketter will tell you that our's is the tough sale to make. The reason psychotics and the right like the GOP/NeoCon positions is because they are confident, clear, protective, and everything they want. Its really a pity it doesn't work.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. May we never again elect a president based on which guy you'd rather have a beer with.
Fabulous thread...kicked and recommended.
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
49. *pfffft!* No kidding!!!!!
:rofl: :spray: :patriot:
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, my mom was neurotic. If she was GW Bush..I was the family 'Democrat'
and deemed the enemy. My family, sister, cousins- all (except my dad) was the GOP and I was the Democrat...I was taunted, berated and humiliated at every turn. Till my mother would finally say 'that's enough'. Sort of like saying about the swift boaters...well I cannot disagree with what they say, just that they might have gone too far.

Tellin ya, being from a neurotic family is NOT FUN...but I have remained a Democrat, so I guess I got my alligator skin from my family, for that I am thankful!
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. America has been the dysfunctional family from Hell for some time now.
Bingo on the analysis.

(PS We have more than a neurosis at the top... )
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, I Don't Think Anyone In The Admin Really Believes Their Own Bullshit
But I do agree that the majority of the country does now see the disconnect between reality and the bullshit the admin spews.

I think that they spew their bullshit to cover their real motivations for doing what they're doing. I really think that this chaos in Iraq was all part of the plan. They WANTED a chaotic Iraq so they could cover their theft of trillions. They just thought they would be able to manage perceptions better than they have. That's all the lies and bullshit is really, it's an attempt to manage perception. I don't think they ever really believe it. And of course, they are too narcisistic and psychotic to ever do anything differently or to change anything once they set course.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. See, I used to see it that way...
...but since the midterm elections I'm thinking I may change my paradigm. For one thing, the midterms show that not everything this team produces can possibly have been a desired effect. For another, if you look at the way they're responding to this major setback, I think it's clear that they are in shock because this event does not fit in with their understanding of how the world works--and they cannot adjust. I don't think they were able to adjust to 9/11 either--they just looked at it as an opportunity to keep doing what they were already planning to do, only more of it.

Obviously some of what they throw out there is lies--i.e., things that they do not believe but which they pretend to believe in order to mislead us. For instance, I don't think anyone really believed there were WMDs in Iraq. But I don't think they thought the Iraq war would go down the way it has. I think on that one they believed their own bullshit--that the US is all-powerful and able to conquer anyone on the planet once they make the decision to do it.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The W in the Bubble
They are so isolated they believe their own PR. This is how religions sometimes start.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I think you are right on that one. It's interesting to note that the
administration member who could have (and perhaps did) inject the most experience and reality on what Iraq would turn into, Colin Powell, was on e of the first ones shown the door or whatever...
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I Think What They Actually DID Believe Was They Could "Manage the Perceptions"
Edited on Mon Dec-04-06 04:15 PM by Beetwasher
much better than they did. What I think really surprised them was that the whole thing fell apart so spectacularly that they couldn't control the perception anymore. These guys really thought that perception WAS reality.

I honestly think that they just didn't care about how the Iraq war went down, but they knew they could "use" it (the cover of the chaos). It was irrelevant to their schemes and I think they just didn't give it much real thought because they didn't care. They only gave thought to HOW they would PRESENT it. If it went the way they said it would go, then great! If it didn't, they would just lie and say everything was great anyway, and they really thought they could get away with it for as long as they needed to and they almost certainly figured they had enough media on their side to consistently get their spin out for as long as necessary. What surprised them was not that it went so badly (IMO), it was that they couldn't manage the perception about it anymore with the sort of efficacy that they were used to.

Just the way it seems to me.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, both paradigms are probably at work here
I think you are right about Rove assuming he would always be able to manage perceptions. But I don't think that means that they wanted Iraq to turn into what it's turned into. Presumably, for instance, they would like to have been able to get the oil out of Iraq and into the hands of their friends more efficiently than they can under these conditions.

Historians will argue about this for decades to come, I am sure. It'll give 'em something to do.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. True
I guess they needed it to be stable enough for them to get the oil out, but chaotic enough to give them cover to steal trillions.

I don't necessarily think they wanted Iraq to be what it is now, I just don't think they really cared or thought about it either way very much. They saw the war as a means to an end, and didn't care about the cost or consequences (it's not like they would ever have to pay for it). They knew the war would give them cover to do what they wanted to do and that was all that mattered and as far as they thought it out, and everything else was just them saying what they thought they HAD to say for public consumption, and not anything they ever really believed.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The most telling comment about the war
Was when Rummie(IIRC) complained about going after Afghanastan first. He said there weren't enough good targets in Afghanastan. For the planners behind the war it was never about 9/11 or the war against Terrorism. It has been and continues to be the selling and marketting of the American Dynasty. Our devine might on display. Its always been a con game designed to win over the people's confidence and get them to hand the NeoCon's more power.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Right, More Thought Was Given To The PR and Propoganda
Than to the actual strategy.

War is great cover for profiteering.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. They have
Edited on Mon Dec-04-06 06:24 PM by The Wizard
perpetrated the biggest theft in the history of the Universe. By the time it gets unraveled we'll all be lunch for worms. We are going the way of Byzantium, no accountability on top and its immediate environs.
The new Congress will have its hands full sorting out a small percentage of the smoke screen covering the the crimes.
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chelaque liberal Donating Member (981 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Exactly. Remember this statement from Andy Card?
"From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August."

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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
37. Yep, having targets was more important than whether they were the right ones.
In the post-9/11 state of hysteria much of the country was gripped with, targets and revenge became very important, and the PR administration took full advantage of that fact.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
45. My tinfoil hat may be a little too tight, but I'm still convinced that the
bombing of the Golden Mosque, which jump-started the sectarian violence, was a black op intended to do just that. Before it happened, the factions were becoming unified in getting the US out, which we obviously did not want. After that, they were fighting among themselves. Bushco just underestimated how badly and how quickly it would spin out of control.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Oh absolutely
I think in the scheme of the NeoCon movement there are those who are aware of the utility of belief and those who cling to it because they do have that belief. I suspect they vested power in someone who leaned to actual belief. He believed he was destined et al. He believed the descisions he made were the right ones and that faith would see them through. Meanwhile his handlers and PR crew set about convincing the rest of the world of this as well. And this is why W brushes away any contrary information. Because he believes he doesn't believe he needs to consider alternate paths.

Unfortunately this appeals to some. The idea of someone picking a path and sticking to it carries a great deal of weight with many. This is why they get upset at Dems. Because we look at how things are going and can say "Dang, thats not working" and rework our premise. The ability to go back and undo a premise does not raise confidence in people. At least not all people.

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. First Of All
Edited on Mon Dec-04-06 04:37 PM by Beetwasher
Holy shit! AZ, how the hell are you? Haven't seen you around in ages!

I honestly don't know how much Bush really believes. I guess I lean towards thinking that he's really just a cynical shuckster who has no more faith or belief in anything he says than I do and he does everything for show. As far as Iraq, I think he just says what he's told to say and doesn't have to the intellectual curiosity or depth to think about it anymore than that. I think he's very one dimensional in his thinking. He's got simple "big picture" ideas about things and political strategy. Be confident, never be seen to change your mind, stick w/ things, never admit mistakes etc. etc. and since he's too stupid and incurious to be creative, he just sticks w/ the script because he doesn't care and is to lazy to anything different. His bottom line is "whatever is going to give ME and MINE the biggest payoff". I don't think for instance he ever believed in bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. I think Iraq was probably explained to him as a big payoff in oil and no bid contracts, but the buzzwords for public consumption were "WMD, freedom and stay the course". It's why he sounds like a robot w/ those terms, he's too stupid once he's programmed to do anything different.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I think we are more in agreement than not
But the key to my thinking stems from the fact that the fish rots from the head down. Once W decided on the path of war with Iraq (for whatever reason) they took that lock box Gore was planning on stashing the Social Security in and stuck all critical thought concerning the war in it. I suspect George created the bubble by putting his foot down once the path was determined and not allowing any critical comments.

Ah to be a fly on the wall. All we can do is guess.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
38. I go back and forth on what Bush believes.
"Cynical shuckster" is my guess for all of his actions and bullshit about actual decisions. But I think -- and I've said this here before -- that when it comes to his view of himself, he really believes he's God's anointed one. It's the only explanation of his success that is a pleasant one. Otherwise, he has to believe that his incredible history of falling upward, one failure at a time, is the result of Daddy's name, Daddy's wealth, Daddy's friends, and cheating. Which would you pick?
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. "God's Chosen One"
Yeah, I could see him really believing that as well. Who knows? It could be a mix, in that he IS a cynical shuckster who also believes he's special and chosen by god. I dunno.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. And a key to that, was they neglected to take the internet into
account.

They controlled the media, very heavily, but didn't see the internet as becoming the vox populi that it has. Contolling US media doesn't work as well when every international paper is available on line.

A few years ago all the talk was how China was censoring the internet for its citizens. A bad thing. Today the talking point is about needing controls on the internet, internet predators, abolishing net neutrality, etc. A good thing.

They don't want this to happen again.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Yup, I Really Believe The Internet May Have Saved This Country
If we can pull ourselves out of this disaster that is Bushco., we will have the internets to thank.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. And we, in turn, have to save the internet
or it won't be there next time around.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. I've been struggling...
.... with this idea for years. Around here, the dominate belief is that this is a war for oil or war profiteering. And there is no question that many are taking advantage of the situation in that way.

But lately I've come around to your way of thinking. George Bush really believes his own bullshit. He really believes that trashing the constitution will "protect" us.

Ever seen the parent of an injured child go nuts? When they feel like perhaps they should have been watching the kid more attentively when they were hurt. Who then goes into hyper-overprotective mode in an effort to over-compensate and prevent a second injury?

This is what Bush looks like to me. The worst terrorist attack in American history happened on his watch and he just cannot handle it. He is going to PROVE that it was not his fault and that those responsible will PAY PAY AND PAY. And he's going to PROVE to the American people that it wasn't his fault, look at how hard he's working to prevent another attack.

Never mind that like an overprotective parent, he's taking all the wrong steps. He can't see that, and frankly I don't think he ever will. He's not operating on logic, he's operating on pure emotion.
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stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
43. They cannot adjust to this major setback ...
Yes, compare this to neurotic parents. When my own finally hit a major setback, they could not adjust - and went batshit crazy.

You're scaring me, Plaid Adder! What are we in for NOW?
:scared:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. We can only hope he doesn't respond to this election by slipping
into "The Devil's after my kids - they'd be better off drowned in the bathtub now while they're still pure" psychosis.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Abusive alcoholic parent is probably more accurate. - n/t
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. that's exactly what I was thinking n/t
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prismpalette Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. photo
ms clio, your dog is beautiful....is that an English Shepherd...the wonderful and rare breed just like liberals?????
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. Thank you!
very kind of you to say so, prismpalette -- she's an Australian Shepherd -- not rare, but definitely wonderful.

Welcome to DU! This is definitely where some of the best of the liberal breed can be found.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think I would compare these people to parents
You are supposing that Bush and the others are delusional. I don't see it that way. I see it more as criminals who have perpetrated a crime and then are brought in for questioning. Even though they know they are lying, they just keep lying no matter how many times you ask them if they did it. I don't know how they think they will get out of this without paying a price. Cheney seems kind of self destructive. Bush I think will just do his job until the end of his days of office and then he will switch the whole thing off. Job done.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bravo! Everyone with an alcoholic parent has to be affected by *'s leadership "style"
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. No, the "parent" meme simply doesn't apply. He's like a psycho BOSS...
...at a job you JUST can't afford to quit;
or a petty fascist busybody who appoints themself head
of the 'neigborhood Watch', or something.

But no "parent" metaphors ring true for me. B*sh is no
parent, not even a deranged one.

Maybe a deranged drunken Uncle who you haven't seen in years,
who gets appointed your guardian after your parents die
under suspicious circumstances. One so obsessed with their
financial portfolio that he barely notices you... except on
the days that the social worker comes by.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. Too late to edit, but I wanted to add this:
Part of this hypothesis is based on my idea of a neurosis as a disavowed or unacknowledged power play. In other words, though on one level neuorses are real--in that, say, someone with a phobia about shopping malls may well have involuntary, physical, and very distessing symptoms every time s/he enters one--once you get beyond the level of conscious and acknowledged thought, a neurosis can become a way of manipulating other members of the family (or whatever organization we're talking about). For instance, if every time you go to a shopping mall you have a panic attack, your family will try to set things up so that you never have to go to a shopping mall, because they'd rather do the shopping than deal with your panic attack. Voila, you don't have to do Christmas shopping ever again. Apply this in the political sphere, and you can see how, for instance, Cheney's paranoia about U.S. national "security," whether or not he really believes that the country is in that much danger, becomes a means of grabbing power at home and starting wars abroad. Bush's neurotic belief that he is somehow destined by God to do this job becomes a means of getting his own way all the time about everything regardless of the damage it does.

Most everyone is neurotic to some degree. What we were really talking about, in the conversation that started me off on this theory, is why some people are willing to make the effort to confront and resolve their neuroses, and some aren't. Some people would rather put up with the neurosis in order to hang onto what it is able to do for them--in the example above, for instance, they'd rather go through the occasional panic attack than have to brave the mall in December, so they never resolve the phobia. But it seems that different people have different thresholds, and one thing that often depresses me about human nature is seeing how often people make the choice *not* to address a problem that is preventing them from living a full life. What often happens is that because someone in the family won't get therapy for their issues, everyone *else* in the family has to get therapy instead--which, again, is the way it's worked under the Bush presidency. He's the one who's nuts; we're the ones who have to figure out how to cope with that.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. And Let Me Add
That I sort of glossed over the whole primary gist of your post in my initial response and it's actually very important. I think it's important for people to understand what you're hitting on, and that's understanding the psychological motivations underpinning what we're seeing playing out on the public stage. I think the psychological motivations are actually the PRIMARY underlying motivators for ALL of the junta's activities, including the Iraq war. I know it may seem as if I'm ascribing more prosaic motivations such as greed and profiteering etc., and those are relevant, but relevant because they may be what the players (Bush et al.) tell THEMSELVES are their real motivations, but IMO, their real motivations come from deeper w/in their twisted psyches. The war on a fundamental level provides and EMOTIONAL SATISFACTION for those involved in it's architecture and implementation, and it's one even they won't/can't/don't acknowledge.

I think the family unit symbology is relevant, because the way I see it, what we're seeing on the national and international stage is really just acting out on a larger scale the sorts of things that happen in families w/ abusive/neurotic/dysfunctional parents and is driven by the same sort of group psychology/psychosis.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. hmm -- I wonder ...
My folks were pretty well-grounded -- though my mom did go to a Seventh Day Adventist school, and even today will unexpectedly blurt out bits of Christian end-times theology (re: the battle of Armageddon, or a sudden surge of guilt that I had not been raised as a regular churchgoer ... and would be going to hell since "it's just not right" for a 30-something single woman like me to go on unchaperoned holidays with my then-boyfriend). The religious conflict did ease off, after I moved 3 time zones away.

Anyway, there was something about my grandfather. He was extremely anti-social, and cold and domineering towards his own family. (And stubborn! I get that from him ... and I hope I didn't inherit some of the other stuff.) I hadn't thought of that as being "neurotic", but I guess there are some similarities there, in how things turned out. The entire family rallied around so that he wouldn't have to deal with other people and embarrass them all. At a pretty early age, my dad became the parental authority and arbitrator -- he negotiated with the landlord, and went to parent-teacher meetings on grandpa's behalf (there was also a language barrier there, though, so that was part of it). Dad also played with his younger siblings, taught them things, and took them places -- my father says that in all his years, he only saw grandpa play with the kids once (and that involved chasing them around the house and scaring them until they cried). My youngest uncle, now in his 70s, still recalls being traumatized by that. A few decades ago, another uncle had asked grandpa permission to marry a Native American woman, who'd already had children from a previous marriage. Grandpa refused. Uncle was shattered, and my father spent many hours talking with him, reassuring him that it was okay and that grandpa had no jurisdiction. (The couple have been happily married ever since then.) My youngest aunt never married at all ... she was stuck at home looking after grandpa, after grandma's untimely death. Grandpa refused to do anything at all for himself -- didn't even want to learn how to make coffee or boil an egg -- so my poor aunt put her life on hold.

So what you say about the family having to figure out how to cope ... that's what happened here. Especially after my grandfather developed dementia and refused to go into a home, so the kids had to take turns looking after him.

I'm still trying to figure out how much of this was inadvertent, and how much was due to clever planning on my grandfather's part. Refuse to do something (or do a lousy job), and they won't make you do it again. This does sound disturbingly like some of the "strategery" (quoting SNL) that Bush adopted. Show up at work with a hangover (like in that Alabama election campaign), and everybody else has to cover for you. His mom stopped hassling him about his schoolwork, after she forced him through extra tutoring and he bombed. Supposedly she also stopped taking him golfing after his cussing embarrassed her friends. Bush himself likes to be "misunderestimated", because it takes the pressure off him, and when he does decide to do something, people are surprised that he can do it at all.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
40. Good point about Bush using God to get his own way.
He also uses "my heart," "my gut," and "the American people want" -- in other words, all very hard-to-check but authentic-sounding forces for action. Shuts the conversation about pros and cons right down. Bush is almost certainly aware to some degree of his own use of these methods, but he also MUST depend on them, because he's got nothing else. He has to rely on the power of his assertions, because he can't produce a logical argument or real evidence. As his assertions have lost power (that is, as people have started to question him and/or see through his lies, and as they have stopped letting him get his own way -- see Nov. 7), he has become more visibly adrift; he knows no other way to get what he wants.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. no, the nation's insane ass hole
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. Very wealthy people live long lives, because they never touch
money. Ever see a very wealthy person handle money? No, and you never will. Currency handling is for the unwealthy, so currency is regularly infected with poor people germs.

How's that for a germ phobia?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. I think I kinda gotta disagree, Plaidder...
I think he’s a lot worse than a “neurotic parent.” While the NP you describe may have a tenuous grasp on reality or even a full-blown delusional system (which would incidentally render that parent psychotic rather than neurotic). Bush falls into the general class of the severely personality-disordered. He has no conscience, no ability to love or care for others outside himself, and a supremely aggrandized sense of his own self-worth. The erroneous ideas that swirl around him are of two sorts. On the one hand there are the preposterous and pathological doctrines of certain of his followers—particularly Fundamentalists but also those of the Neocon ilk—that he gives lip service to in order to maintain their loyalty. It is these belief systems that cause him to oppose stem cell research and adequate AIDS programs. These pseudo-beliefs are not important to him beyond their instrumental value in clinging to power. Then there are those genuinely delusional beliefs he clings to in support of his deeper psychopathology. Among these latter are his belief that he is wonderful and can do no wrong, that other people exist primarily to provide him with sources of gratification, etc.

Herbert Hoover was a neurotic parent. Maybe even Ronald Reagan was a neurotic parent. Dubya is a narcissistic psychopath with an authoritarian mindset.
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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yep, you got it-- read psycho-history (e.g. "the emotional life of nations" by
Lloyd deMause). The premise is we choose our leaders based on deepseated psychological needs.

I know I've been hugely triggered by the political discourse these past 6 yrs. because of how closely the right wingers resemble my psychologically abusive father ( now deceased) who was always finding fault, always twisting the meanings of my words to mean something else from what I intended and attacking me for what he THOUGHT I said.

You know there is that joke about the democrats/left suffering from battered party syndrome. I think theres alot of truth in that. I think that's exactlhy why we saw the caving in to the Bush admin. time and time again.

Re: that 29% (my right wing evangelical siblings for example), they perceive Bush's beligerence and war-mongering to be "strength," and the more collaborative & diplomatic approach of the Democrats as "weakness." They can never be reached by logic bc they have an emotional need for a vengeful authoritarian daddy who will protect them and keep them safe from the boogeyman terrorist.


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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
29. Borderline personality disordered parent would be closer
It's neuroses squared with some psychoses thrown in. Compulsive lying and narcissism are prominent features as is the inability to empathize. Many BPD folks (parents included) are alcoholics or dry drunks. I am currently dealing with a newly ex-partner who has this and I have been struck by the similarities.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. The sociopathic or the psychopathic parent. n/t
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. I had exactly the experience you have discussed.
I also had a parent who had all kinds of wacky ideas about everything, from crossing the street to germs, AIDS, etc.

I don't think this is a valid comparison.

For one, neurotic parents do what they do in order to protect their kids, often through ignorant or poorly considered reasoning.

The Bush Administration is the exact opposite. They deceived us into an invalid worldview for their own greedy motives.

When they invaded Iraq, it wasn't to protect us from WMD's, though they told us that. The real reasons were a combination of oil, revenge on Saddam for betraying Bush I, Israel, etc.

What's worse is that the country isn't a bunch of children. We are made up mostly of adults, and should be able to tell that this group of corporate criminals wasn't interested in what's best for America. At all.

I don't believe Rumsfeld actually believed the rose petal scenario you describe. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and got exactly what he wanted: a costly quagmire that would last the balance of the Bush administration and result in massive federal liquidation into the defense industry.

Look at Kellogg, Brown and Root...where's the 6 billion dollars they "lost"? That's tip of the iceberg...350 billion dollars were appropriated for this nightmare. Where's the rebuilding? The green zone is all they have to show for it, and that may not be there in a few weeks.

This played out predictably: grab the money, throw together a makeshift government, and leave the amiable dunce holding the bag. We're currently entering the last phase of this, in which the country has been pushed so far beyond its ability to rationalize this madness that the front man for this has to be hung out to dry. Bush may survive the next two years, but ultimately, it will be him, not Cheney, Rumsfeld, Condi, Bolton, etc., who answer for this in the history books. Will anyone persuade the history writers that he was simply the frontman for the greatest heist in history? Or will we be left with the naive bullshit that he and his supposed subordinates actually said?

A great deal of work has been put into the notion that Bush and his people actually believed their own hype. Don't fall for it. They are laughing their way to the bank.

The only thing they are neurotic about is the possibility that we might realize what they've done and hold them to account for it.

Then you'll see what they really believed, when they are forced to cut deals to turn one another in. If that happens, you'll know that every single one of them knew exactly what they were doing, because they will tell you exactly that in order to get themselves out of consecutive life sentences.

Long story short: Don't believe the hype. They aren't neurotic parents. They are more like political cat burglars. We aren't children of neurotic parents...We are just the people who will wake up in a few years, open up the museum and realize everything's gone and start scratching our heads trying to figure out what happened.

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
33. I have a parent like you described.
Edited on Tue Dec-05-06 07:21 AM by blackops
My father is neurotic. When I lived at home, I would frequently get into shouting matches with him. His arguments were completely irrational, and it made no difference what evidence I could provide to change his opinion. He had made up his mind, and that was that.

He believes people are taking advantage of him, or of profiting from things he is unable to take advantage of. A neighbor on the street works for the city, and my father would spy on him. My father would watch to see when he left for work, when he got home, if any city trucks would stop by his house. My father went to where the neighbor works to get his schedule. He even took pictures of the neighbor to "document" any "infractions" (Completely pointless, because the pictures had no date or time.)

It was only after I had moved out that I realized, "Wow. I don't have any arguments anymore. I can talk to people and not fear it become a shouting match." That's when I realized my dad is neurotic. I know he loves me, and would do anything to help me, but he's neurotic.

As for Chimpy and co., I felt that same sense of disconnect when they decided to invade Iraq. It was completely irrational, completely wrong, and there would be no change in their opinion. I believe they have a sense of entitlement, and they are robbing the treasury because they feel they deserve it, that it's "right". I don't know if they truly believed in bringing democracy (justification no. 3, or is it no. 4?), but if they did, it was only to get more money (and oil.)
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prismpalette Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
39. realities
I think you need to look a bit deeper...Each generation constructs its own reality because the world is in a constant state of change/evolution/chaos. My parents youth was not mine, nor mine yours. My children grew up in a world different than what i did. Each generation projects is observations, logic, and survival mechanisms into the mix and has disdain for what came before. Because all only receive and store information based on one's own history and perceived realities, the generations will never view one another the same or from the same set of shared experiences. As we age, the philosophy and logical set of coping mechanisms are what we bring with us. The "wisdom" to govern or rule based on the tools we have gained. Shrub has never had to solve problems or gain wisdom thru experience; therefore cause and effect and the dire consequences for the planet unfold from his vastly lacking skill set.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
41. Grew up in a family where there was active alcoholism.
Lots of denial, needless to say.

And the "no talk" rule. Nobody talked about the real problem--the alcoholism. Even after my father was dead, we didn't talk about that.

Just like now, as a society (including the corporate media) we don't talk about how Bush is mentally ill and a gang of thugs are in control in this country. We pretend everything is OK.

The expression used often in the literature about alcoholism is "the elephant in the living room." The elephant that nobody talks about, we just ignore it.

How appropriate, that it's an elephant.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
46. I wrote this a while back, "The American Public and the Battered Spouse syndrome"...
Edited on Tue Dec-05-06 11:19 AM by Javaman
The American Public and the Battered Spouse syndrome...
Posted by Javaman in General Discussion
Wed Feb 01st 2006, 03:54 PM
I didn't watch the moron* last night, I just didn't have the stomach to watch regurgitated bullshit.

But after reading excerpts and various opinions on the speech, something occurred to me.

The U.S. population is suffering from battered spouse syndrome.

The "ex"-alcoholic president* who converted to christianity to save himself* from the evils of an abusive life-style, has instead become the dry drunk. Without real therapy, we get all the anger, jealousy, stupidity and self-righteousness without the booze.

But the one thing, that dry-drunks and active drunks also have in common, they lie. But they lie in such a way as to make it appear as if they are doing right by their spouses.

"honey, the car appears to have a bit of an oil leak, I'm taking it to the station", however in reality, the car had it's front ripped off in a hit and run.

Or the classic, "are you going to trust me or your lying eyes?"

With the various lame ideas and week proposals that moron* put out there last night, two come to mind as not only being lies, but lying to us as a nation to prop himself* up while we pay the price.

1)We are addicted to oil.

Actually, no we aren't, the U.S. Gov't is addicted to oil.

We the people are addicted to a means of how we get from here to there OR power our homes OR keeping ourselves warm, these are what we are addicted to. If some other type of energy came along, that was cleaner and cost effective, I think we as a people would change in a heart beat.

Sadly, that means exists, but moron* has chose not to fund it, explore it or develop it.

But as long as the gov't and it's corporate buddies reap big profits off our sweat, the gov't will continue it's addiction.

2)The children have to do better in Math and Science.

Oh wow, where do I begin.

While the religious right continues to wage war on Science and moron* cut's funds to his crappy no child left behind program and on top of that, cuts financial aid and grants to students, we as a nation, allow him to do it.

This dumbing down of our population and propping up the of military services as an alternative way out of poverty will be the death of us.

But these are only two examples from the many that can be picked from from his* SOTU address. And only two from the many things that are going on right now in the administration in general. He* spies on us, he* lies to us about a war and WMD's, he* invades nations on the thinest of reasons, his* cabinet members expose our agents in the field, he* violates the U.S. Constitution at every chance he* gets, he* rams through "coached" SCOTUS nominations and we allow them to pass without them answering questions regarding their character or their past judgments.

We are complicit in all of this. Why? Because as a nation, we are filled with apologists. The neo-cons are the battered spouses, the moderates, both repuke and DINO dem, are the apologizing child, who just wants peace in the house but at the same time getting the status as daddy's* favorite, the progressive democrats are the punk rock son, who rebels but has no voice because daddy* smacks his ass and locks him in his room. This progressive Dem's could "leave" aka speak out forcefully and does so once in a while but only until daddy* humiliates him and does a power trip on him to make him think his ideas are useless and futile. The Progressive Dem then feels powerless, especially when older sister, the DINO Dem, tells him one thing then does another.

The supreme court is the crooked cop that looks the other way at morons* violations and indiscretions. And the media are his former drinking buddies.

This is a dysfunctional family.

No one member if this family, even the neo-con spouse that trumpet morons* "marvelous" contributions to the nation, like him. They only deal with him* because he holds the purse strings of the nation.

But like most dry drunks, rather than drinking, he focus's his addiction onto something else. Is it religion? Is it being world leader?

Nope, he* honestly doesn't care about those two things, it's all about control. He* really can't control himself and rather than take a look at his* own fuck-ups, he* chooses to control and blame others. Us.

So here we are. One big happy screwed up family. Until "dad*" goes into rehab in earnest or something happens to him* that allows him* to get a grip on reality, we are stuck with this idiot*.

And as a result, the only thing we can hope for is impeachment (divorce), because nothing short of that is going to get him* to change his* dry drunk ways and stop him from beating the hell out of us.
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
48. As usual, you've invited thoughtful and intelligent conversation
to the board. Love you, Plaid Adder! :applause:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
53. neurotic parents actually give a shit about their children.
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thomasak2806 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
54. Neurotic Parents
Dear Mr. Adder:

A neurotic parent is indeed an apt analogy for this
administration.  Concerning the seeming disconnect between
reality that we see and reality as described by Bushco, I have
noticed the same thing.  I have even termed this phenomenon
"Aggravated Dissonance" 

Aggravated Dissonance:  1. The frustration one experiences
when confronted with institutional or public incongruence.
2.	An extremely volatile condition of modern life.
By Thomas A. King

Stress is a fact of life.  It’s just that simple.  Our ability
to cope with stress largely determines our choices about where
we live, what we do and how we function.  However, many
aspects of modern life involve diametrically opposed
circumstances that defy any attempt at an integrated
explanation.  These incongruities can lead to what I call
“Aggravated Dissonance”, which indicates a feeling of
helplessness and lack of control to such an extent that the
individual simply gives up in the face of a seemingly
impossible situation.  In other words:  A given set of
problems, the solution to any one of which will result in the
aggravation of one of the other problems in the set; the
classic “No Win” situation.

For example, let’s use the subject of psychology.  Psychology,
in its many forms, is a multi-billion dollar industry.  Walk
into any bookstore and count the self-help books, the
non-fiction true crime books dealing with the criminal mind,
the forensic studies section etc. On television, shows with
psychological themes are incredibly popular.  Any time some
sensational crime occurs, psychologists are consulted and
asked for their opinions on motive, behavior, history, etc. 
Research institutions and universities spend millions yearly
on psychological experiments, studies and publishing of texts.
 In short, we want a psychological explanation for every
nuance of human behavior.

However, if you ask a co-worker, colleague, friend or
acquaintance for their opinion on the validity of
psychological study and research, invariably the response is
highly skeptical at best.  Most people will utterly reject
psychological explanations of behavior as “jargon,
psycho-babble”, or “a meaningless exercise in navel gazing”. 
When a psychological explanation is offered for some crime,
people seem to always dismiss the explanation as merely an
excuse for bad behavior or an attempt by the criminal to “get
away” with something.

Here is where the incongruence lies.  On one hand we invest
billions of dollars as well as considerable emotional content
in psychological inquiry.  Yet we regard this inquiry with
contempt.  Let’s be honest; somebody is buying all those
books; somebody is watching all those TV shows, otherwise they
wouldn’t exist.   Psychology remains consistently one of the
most popular courses of study in higher education.  But,
nobody will admit that they believe a word of it.

In a way, our curiosity demands that we ask these questions,
but our ego forces us to reject the answers; a seemingly
irreconcilable psychic conflict.  If we satisfy our thirst for
knowledge, we deprive ourselves of independence.  Conversely,
if we regard ourselves as completely independent actors,
un-reliant on history or environment, there is no reason to
study something so ephemeral as motivation.  Indeed, the quest
for knowledge can be seen as a lack of faith either in oneself
or in any form of higher power.  Since our actions are
completely independent of external factors such as history or
upbringing, there is no sense in exploring these factors.  And
yet, we still want to know.
So we find ourselves in an endless cycle of knowledge
acquisition and rejection at the same time.  The resulting
conflict is the essence of aggravated dissonance.  Of course,
we must reject this hypothesis as soon as we propose it;
otherwise the entire theory is in error no matter how true it
is.

The real conflict here is not, as it might appear, inquiry vs.
independence.  This dissonance arises because we are actually
trying to answer moral questions with scientific answers and
vice versa.  “We are responsible for our actions!” say the
moralists.  We must be held accountable for what we do and any
attempt to explain why we choose one course of action rather
than another is to seek an excuse for our behavior. 
Psychological inquiry is, from this point of view, an
abrogation of our knowledge of good and evil and our capacity
for choosing one over the other.

Those favoring inquiry might say that acquiring knowledge of
the cause of behaviors does not morally condone those
behaviors.  Scientific inquiry does not address moral
questions; and, therefore, to use scientific knowledge as a
basis for moral judgment is, by definition, incorrect. 
Science is not concerned with blame or excuses; but only with
causes and effects.


While I don’t necessarily want to drag politics into this
piece, I think our current situation in the middle-east is a
perfect example of aggravated dissonance.  In fact, it is a
dissonance that strikes at the very heart of our identity and
values as Americans.  The administration tells us that we are
fighting to secure peace and democracy for the Iraqis; that
these are “God given rights” and it is our duty to bring them
to other people who are governed with an iron fist by brutal
dictators.  We tell ourselves we have a common history with
those who are oppressed.  We were once similarly oppressed and
out of that condition of servitude our country was born.  We
justify our actions by telling them (and ourselves) that we
are doing it for their own good.  We are building schools and
hospitals and the Iraqis are much better off now that Saddam
Hussein is no longer in power.

Yet, while the politicians and pundits spout their rhetoric,
we watch the casualty figures mount every day.  Prisoners
being tortured by American soldiers so arrogant that they take
pictures of themselves doing it; the lies that we were told to
justify our involvement in this conflict; the pain and anguish
of families that have lost loved ones for a cause based on
lies and misrepresentations; all these things present us with
an inner dilemma.  Our beliefs and our actions seem to be in
conflict.  The central contradiction of a “war for peace” is
reflected in the unease with witch most people seem to regard
our involvement in Iraq.  Similarly, the conflict between
history and ambition is also marked by dissonance.  Everything
we are doing in Iraq has been tried unsuccessfully in the
past.  Indeed, Saddam Hussein received our willing assistance
in the war against Iran which hastened his rise to power.  In
the seventies, the Shaw of Iran received our support for his
government which was overthrown resulting in the Islamic
fundamentalist takeover by the Ayatollah Khomeini.  In the
eighties, we invested heavily in training and arming of
anti-Russian insurgents in Afghanistan.  Led by a wealthy
Saudi named Osama Bin Laden, the insurgents succeeded in
driving the Russians out of the country.  The resulting
Taliban government went on to cause no small amount of trouble
for the West.  In every case, U.S. interference has resulted
in a situation which, while unintended, is arguably worse than
the problem we were trying to solve in the first place.  

So, here we have a conflict that is contradictory by
definition (war for peace), combined with a course of action
which historically does not work and, in fact, most often
results in more conflict thus amplifying the original
contradiction.  This, in addition to goals that are undefined,
open-ended involvement with no clear time frame and a widely
negative perception of our actions world wide, not
surprisingly results in what amounts to a severely conflicted
national psyche.  

So, if the described characteristics result in this phenomenon
that I have called aggravated dissonance, what are the
symptoms?  

For this, let’s take a look at the classic symptoms of
cognitive dissonance.

The essence of cognitive dissonance is psychic conflict.  The
self-concept is in conflict with behavior.  This produces
anxiety.  Much like water flowing from one lock to another
until equilibrium is achieved; the mind seeks to reduce the
anxiety by adjusting either self concept (through
rationalization) or behavior (by changing actions).  Actually
both aspects are changed to a certain extent until they
balance each other.  Where behavior cannot change
significantly, rationalization will increase to achieve
balance and vice versa.

In individuals this is a purely psychic problem.  We adjust
our perception of the situation and thereby resolve our
conflict.  This is not necessarily easy to do, but still, it
is an essentially individual endeavor.  Thus we have; conflict
– anxiety – resolution.  This is the course of cognitive
dissonance.

Aggravated dissonance as I have termed it is a social
construct.  It is the conflict imposed upon us when force or
statements by an external entity, not only compel us to act in
a way that is inconsistent with our self-image, but, also defy
any attempts on our part to rationalize or behave our way
toward a resolution.   In other words; when we are forced to
act in conflict with what we believe, and the given reason for
this act defies common sense or is blatantly false, yet we
have no way of avoiding the situation all together, we
experience dissonance that is un-resolvable.  We are helpless
to change the situation or even understand it.   We then tend
to retreat into apathy and, in fact, “give up.”  When
dissonance reaches a high enough level we become overwhelmed
and engage in wrote behavior (un-questioning obedience to
authority, apathy, unwillingness to engage in processes or
even understand them, cultivated ignorance etc.).



I have put together a partial list of public policies that
might possibly lead to higher levels of dissonance in the
national psyche:

•	The Texas Supreme Court has ruled that, in appeals,
“Innocence is no bar to punishment.

•	The governor of Texas recently proposed increases in school
spending financed by added taxes on liquor, adult oriented
businesses and cigarettes.  


•	In response to the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison,
the Secretary of Defense banned cell phones with cameras in
all military installations.  (It’s not the abuse, it’s the
pictures stupid!)

•	In the most recent Super Bowl (a game in which groups of men
pummel each other mercilessly for an hour interspersed with
gratuitous appeals to violence and liquor soaked sexuality), 
the exposure of one breast for 5 seconds during halftime
prompted national outrage and an FCC investigation.

•	Recently, a U.S. Senator made the following statement in an
interview:

And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to
consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to
bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to
incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to
anything. Does that undermine the fabric of our society? I
would argue yes, it does. It all comes from, I would argue,
this right to privacy that doesn't exist in my opinion in the
United States Constitution, this right that was created, it
was created in Griswold -- Griswold was the contraceptive case
-- and abortion. And now we're just extending it out. And the
further you extend it out, the more you -- this freedom
actually intervenes and affects the family. You say, well,
it's my individual freedom. Yes, but it destroys the basic
unit of our society because it condones behavior that's
antithetical to strong, healthy families.


While this list is by no means complete, it does serve to
illustrate a point.  It is not just that the examples cited
above are wrong (although they are), more importantly, they
don’t seem to make any sense at all.  Many of these things are
absurd on their face.  What are we supposed to think of a
state Supreme Court ruling that says, “Innocence is no bar to
punishment.”?  Granted, this is in reference to appeals only,
but it still seams antithetical to any notion of justice.

The last statement on this list is especially telling.  In
reference to the repeal of anti-sodomy laws in Texas, the
Senator involved somehow equates the right to consensual sex
in the home with bigamy?  Is he possibly talking about
consensual polygamy?  Things might get a little crowded in the
old homestead.  

I believe absurdities like those listed above are leaving more
and more people dumbfounded.  In the face of a society and
government that doesn’t seem to make any sense at all, we
don’t know whether to agree or disagree or laugh or cry.   

Thus we have a major national psychic conflict.  We all want
to believe that our government is competent and sane.  We like
to think of ourselves as a relatively well balanced society. 
And yet, we are constantly confronted with an apparent reality
that is incompatible with our national self-image.  We are
Americans!  We are the good guys!  We pride ourselves on our
struggle for freedom in the face of oppression.  We regard
ourselves as the symbol of freedom in the world.  We are the
noble experiment in government of the people, by the people
and for the people.  We seek, not to control or conquer, but
to help others throw off the yoke of oppression and become
free and democratic.

Unfortunately, this idealized self-image has come in conflict
with the opinions of other nations and, seemingly, with
reality.  Pictures of torture, by American soldiers; the
apparent manipulation of information in order to go to war in
the first place; the non-sensical placement of national
priorities, all serve to force us to realize that we may not
always be what we tell ourselves we are.  

If we apply dissonance theory to this problem, we can see that
one of two things must change to resolve this conflict. 
Either our behavior must change so that we are no longer
acting in ways inconsistent with our self-image as Americans,
or our self-image must change to include our behaviors as they
are.  


Which shall we choose?


If we are to change our behavior, we must first define our
self-image (for those who are uncomfortable with the term
“self-image”, we can substitute “mission”).  What is our
mission?  Fortunately, we have a document that has served us
well for over 200 years that describes this mission.  Our
constitution outlines a system of government that attempts to
reconcile the desires of the many with the needs of the few,
adequate regulation to make a society possible with the
freedom to realize individual goals, and the delineation of
absolute individual rights.  Indeed, the first ten amendments
to the constitution, known as the bill of rights, is purely a
document of negation.  It spells out specific areas where the
government may not regulate, intrude upon or abridge the
rights of the individual.  If we support and uphold the tenets
of our constitution, we will have the framework of our
mission.  The problem historically, and in the present
situation, is in the interpretation of these guidelines.  Here
we have a logical problem that can be stated:

1.	If our constitution is the framework for our government,
and…
2.	If our government thus formed, and the freedoms so
designated, place upon us an obligation to bring this type of
government to other peoples.
3.	Then, we are morally obligated to help other nations
achieve freedom from tyranny.

However, we have an equally valid argument that would preclude
us from interfering in the government of another country:

1.	If our constitution is the framework for our government,
and…
2.	If our constitution is based on the proposition that we
have the inalienable right to govern ourselves without foreign
   interference,
3.	Then, we must not attempt to impose our form of government
on other nations.



Remember, in order to reduce dissonance we must either change
behavior or self-image.  So, if we decide to alter our
self-image, how do we do it?   Theory would tell us that we
will either rationalize our imperialist tendencies until they
are consistent with our behavior (our duty to free others);
or, change our behavior (withdraw).   This is entirely
dependant on which interpretation of our constitution we
choose.  We are a nation of absolutists and insist that our
options be presented in black and white.  We will tolerate no
grey areas; there is only right and wrong, good and bad, Truth
or Lie.  This absolutism requires us to ignore realities that
are inconsistent with our strict definitions.  More
accurately, we are forced to “pigeon-hole” every situation
into one of two categories.  Yet these realities still exist
and, whether we acknowledge them or not, we are aware of them.
 Due to our ongoing dissonance, in addition to our innate
desire to believe that there is, in fact, some kind of
rational plan underlying our efforts, we find ourselves
divided along purely artificial lines.  Simply put, we grasp
desperately at our illusions of control over our environment. 
We let those in charge define our ideological boundaries and
then expend every effort to polarize us along these fictional
divisions.  This, in turn, serves to increase our reliance on
others to tell us what we should believe; what we should not
believe, and since our self-perceptions have been turned
upside down, we naturally are inclined to let others tell us
what to do about it.  This leads to blind loyalty and
unquestioning obedience to whatever dogma we have aligned
ourselves with.  It is as if we are standing in a shaky,
unstable boat and will reach for anything resembling solid
ground no matter how many other dangers may lurk there.

As stated above, this construction of artificial divisions or
polarizing factors provides us with a ready-made motivation to
ignore things that don’t seem to make any sense.  It is much
simpler to align people against each other by creating
simplistic stereotypes and ascribing to them a host of
negative qualities.  Once again, if the stereotype is
effective and the audience receptive then any bizarre or
blatantly absurd idea will be more acceptable than the
oppositional alternative.

Unfortunately (or otherwise) the human mind is a bit more
complicated than this.  At some level, most people are still
aware of the glaring absurdities that seem to permeate their
lives and the resultant dissonance is still present.  It
manifests in elevated stress and anxiety as well as further
retreat into the more comfortable stereotypes that worked
before.  

If we disregard for the moment our preoccupation with the
truth as a measurement of reality, in favor of “The Truth” as
a measurement of loyalty to our leaders, we are faced with
this basic choice:

A.	Do we resolve dissonance by accepting without question that
our actions match our self-image exactly as we imagine it to
be, disregarding any information to the contrary?

B.	Or, do we simply abandon our idealistic self-image and
acknowledge our ambitions for what they are; to dominate and
control other populations, thereby ensuring U.S. hegemony
world-wide? 

A is, in fact, a false choice in that it treats dissonance as
a concept subject to our will.  In other words, it assumes
that we can choose not to acknowledge dissonance even in the
face of dissonance producing factors.  There is no evidence
that this is possible.  Remember, dissonance itself is a
psychic conflict.  That means it arises spontaneously as a
result of circumstances not in our control.  When our behavior
conflicts with our beliefs, whether individually or
collectively, dissonance will result.  We can ignore it; we
can deny it; we can rationalize it; but it is there
nonetheless.

B has the dubious advantage of being honest.  We could resolve
dissonance by abandoning our illusions of moral superiority
and adopt the attitude of all empires historically. Simply
put:  We will appropriate land and recourses wherever we find
them because we can.  It is our destiny to rule because we do,
in fact, rule.  However, this position strands us in a moral
and ideological dilemma.  One need not be a professional
historian to know that freedom, civil rights and due process
of law cannot long be denied to one segment of the population
without eventually being denied to the rest of the population.
 If we do not afford other peoples the rights and privileges
that we possess ourselves, eventually the day will come when
we will deny those rights to segments of our own population. 
This “might makes right” philosophy in the end will deprive us
of the very freedoms that we seek to defend.



“They wouldn’t listen; they’re not listening still…”

I recently received a poignant lesson in the results of
aggravated dissonance from a friend.  We were talking about
the publication of Bill Clinton’s memoirs and an appearance he
had made on a popular talk show.  My friend, a staunch
Republican stated that she was impressed with Clinton’s
performance in the interview and that, “I had no idea that he
(Clinton) was so thoughtful.”  I asked her if she had never
heard Clinton speak while he was president and she stated
that, “I don’t know, I guess I never really paid attention to
him before.”   It struck me as curious that someone who was,
by comparison to others, politically involved, wouldn’t ever
listen to what the president had to say for the entire eight
years that Clinton was in office and would then opine that he
seemed “thoughtful” on a talk show, four years after his
presidency.   However, if we apply the theory of aggravated
dissonance to this situation, we can speculate that my friend
remained unaware of Bill Clinton’s “thoughtfulness” due to the
simple fact that she was unable to listen to him.  As long as
he was president, Clinton was a part of a dissonance producing
system (government).  Thus, not only was my friend unwilling
to listen, she was literally not capable of listening.  She
was helpless in the face of a learning disability produced by
dissonance.  Once Bill Clinton was removed from the political
arena and presented in the context of a popular talk show, he
was no longer subject to the stereotypes discussed above and
my friend was therefore able to consider his ideas as
independent of a political agenda.


Where does this leave us?

To sum up, the problem is a lack of participation (indeed an
inability to participate) in the political processes necessary
to insure a competent government.  This is a chicken or egg
question.  Did we become apathetic due to dissonance created
by irresponsible and dishonest politicians?  Or, did the
politicians just do what we demanded and our own conflicted
desire for comforting lies over truth resulted in our current
condition?  In other words, did our own dissonant demands come
back to us as glad-handed politicians and hidebound
bureaucrats?  In the absence of coherent direction, we have
allowed those who worship process over performance to set our
agendas and decide our place in the world.  
When behavior becomes ritualistic, the objective of that
behavior is lost.  When the worship of God becomes mindless
ritual, the objective of godliness is lost.  When dedication
to country becomes mindless ritual, the objective of freedom
is lost.  When we allow others to decide the right way to
worship; to be dedicated to our country; to think; to act, we
abrogate our abilities as thinking beings.  

This is not to say that it is always wrong to do so. 
Sometimes and in some efforts (particularly when individuals
are unable to grasp an objective), we must, in effect, serve
the process.  In some areas, such as war, people are required
to sublimate their free will to the point of giving up their
own lives so that an objective may be reached.  There is a
difference, however, between intentionally deciding to give up
self will to reach a greater objective, and allowing this to
become our “default” mode of operation.  If we give up the
idea of ever questioning authority (or allow dissonance to
inhibit our ability to question) we become subject to the
whims of the powerful, who may or may not be serving our best
interests.

If we seek to reconcile some of the dissonant aspects of our
civic life, we might start by repairing some of the disconnect
between government and its representatives and the population
at large.  When government officials make proclamations about
the state of the economy, for example, people tend to look
around them and check to see if what they’re being told about
the economic situation resembles their personal experience. 
If there is a conflict in these two representations,
dissonance occurs.  One then may conclude that either, the
official is out of touch with reality, or “My reality doesn’t
count.”  Whatever the conclusion, this leads to dissonance
between what we are being told is reality and what we’re are
actually experiencing. This applies to all of the various
aspects of our civic life.   

We must remember that this is not, in and of itself, an
indicator that we are being lied to.  There remain vast
differences of perspective, scope and scale between examining
an enormously large system as a whole and experiencing that
system as an individual within it.  The politicians dilemma
is; how to effectively resolve system-wide problems, while
appearing to have intimate knowledge of how the problem
affects each individual within that system.  

Given that any change to a system comprised of two-hundred
million plus individuals won’t appear to have any effect at
all for many months, if not years later, how will individuals
judge the effectiveness of the candidates they have chosen? 
So, politicians are, in effect, forced to lie to make them
selves look effective to individuals immediately rather than
wait for their actual effectiveness to be judged.  In a way,
this is an unintended consequence of our astounding progress
in communications technology.  In a time when communication
speed was restricted to how fast a horse could run, or
railroad move, there was time for the individual to let the
gradual effects of changes become apparent (maybe not to their
full extent, but to a certain degree).  

Now, however, a policy can be proposed, voted on by congress,
amended, re-voted and implemented in a matter of hours or days
depending on the proposal.   So, the politician
must rely on the goodwill of the voter before the results of
any proposal can be judged.  The voter, in turn, has very few
actual performance results to look at in order to judge a
politician’s merits.  So, as a consequence the voter is forced
to rely on his impression of the candidate, or how the
candidate makes him feel.  Potential candidates understand
that making people feel good about them is more important than
intangible future results, so they sell themselves
accordingly.

Thus, we have an endless downward spiral of “truth
displacement” Politicians are, in effect selling truth on
credit; saying “Like the way I look?  Vote for me now, and
I’ll make it worth your while ‘later’.”   Of course, just as
some people over-extend themselves on credit, politicians
sometimes mistake their ability to make people feel good for
an ability to actually do good.  As well, sometimes people
“enhance” their credit history to obtain credit that they
would otherwise be unqualified for.  We can extend this
analogy to politicians and their behavior fairly easily.

Another problem with the political process in its current form
is that the ability to run as a candidate does not necessarily
translate into the ability to perform the duties required of
an elected official.  In other words, while we are very good
at training people to run for office, we are miserably bad at
training people to run an office.  Hence, I believe, the
public becomes disillusioned with the system and office
holders who aren’t “in touch” with the “common man”.  Once the
lie of telling people what they want to hear is exposed, the
rest of our suppositions about our representatives fall like a
house of cards.  At least on a subconscious level we have
learned to anticipate this disappointment and seek to avoid it
by refusing to acknowledge information contrary to our beliefs
no matter how well documented that information is.


The necessity of symbols in a large population

There is indeed a fine line between symbol and stereotype. 
For this piece we may define symbols as objects that allow us
to illustrate a larger concept.  As an example, the flag is a
symbol.  It symbolizes freedom, liberty and the sacrifices we
have made to get them.  As such, symbols lose their value when
they become the objects of adoration rather than
representations of that adoration.  Simply put, we value
liberty and freedom and we use the flag to symbolize them. 
The flag does not contain any aspects of liberty or freedom,
but rather is endowed by ourselves with a representative
importance.  A symbol is, therefore, useful as a focal point;
an intervening variable as it were, to describe a set of
beliefs or values.  The group of values, for example, that
include liberty, freedom and willingness to sacrifice for them
are expressed in their symbol-the flag.

In contrast, stereotypes are simply the application of
perceived group characteristics upon individuals within that
group.  As such, they rely on exaggerated idiosyncrasies of
the out-group behavior that tend to set that group apart in a
negative way.  For example, Asian people aren’t smart, they
are geeks; African-American people are not hard-working, they
are strong in order to perpetrate crime; Mexicans are not
industrious, they are just trying to avoid the
responsibilities of citizenship.  Stereotypes are used to
separate people by exaggerating their differences.  Symbols
are used to unite people by emphasizing their similarities. 
This is not to say that stereotypes are always bad and symbols
always good.  They are only tools that can be used for either
good or ill.  

I think this does, however, force us to simplify issues in
order to conform them to either symbolic or stereotypic forms.
 To simplify, we want BIG issues and GREAT causes that can be
reduced to easy, good or bad, yes or no decisions.  Thus our
political culture deals in absolutes.  “Abortion is evil.” 
“Choice is good.”  Nothing can be considered in degrees. 
There is no alternative such as “some” gun control, or
“reasonable” taxation.  Not only does this result in an
oversimplification of complex issues, but it discourages us
from considering some issues at all.  You will never hear a TV
announcer say, for example, 

“Tonight on ‘CPA Miami’ ripped from the headlines; Greenspan
raises interest rates .75%!  The detectives’ 401-Ks are in
jeopardy – you can’t afford to miss it!”  

Economic issues, foreign policy, energy policy, while very
important to the quality of our lives, do not translate well
into crusades.  Thus they tend to be disregarded by
politicians trying to make us feel good at the moment, as well
as by we the people who really only want to be entertained and
allowed to feel good about the world around us.  We yearn for
something to smooth the edges of a jagged, unpredictable and
largely uncontrollable environment.  We want a replacement for
the time and distance that used to separate us from the
immediate results of our mistakes.  In essence, we seek
perspective.  

Unquestionably, all the information we could ever want is
available to us immediately; for the most part in our homes or
as close as the library.  More information is available to us,
more quickly, than ever before.  And yet, as with any
commodity in overabundance, the accuracy and value of that
information has plummeted.  This “information glut” has struck
us dumb; thrown us into sensory overload and rendered useless
our critical faculties.  Like moths to the flame we flutter
toward the simple; the absolute; the uncomplicated and those
who will hold our hands and give us the answers we want are
lionized in our civic realm.  

However reassuring, it is a dangerous course we take.  

Here is the basic question:  Given that we are thrown together
in this odd juxtaposition of people, places and personalities;
and given that we will probably not agree on most issues, will
we allow stereotypes to tear us apart, or symbols to replace
reasoned action?   Moreover, as we retreat further and further
into an unthinking and unquestioned agenda of what amounts to
political idolatry, the mechanisms of real change are quietly
disassembled by flag-waving, bunting encrusted politicians who
have no use or desire for a well informed electorate. 
Aggravated dissonance leads to a perceived lack of control
over the political environment which leads to learned
helplessness on a national scale.  This, in turn, results in
the inability to control or even understand real political
issues.  We rely on vague generalities and useless political
crusades from our so called leaders who want nothing more than
to distract and avoid the fact that economically, militarily,
educationally; we are spiraling downward into third world
status.


Proposal:


We need to approach this problem from two directions.  We must
ensure that holders of elected office are fully qualified to
perform their duties. Rather than just being good at running
for office, we need officials who can run an office.  Also, we
must change public perception (a much more difficult task) in
such a way that people no longer feel that elected officials
are out of touch, or ignorant of day to day reality.   Since
we base our perception of reality largely on what we see on
television, allowing people to see their elected officials
dealing with “real life” situations would help to establish a
commonality of interests.  It is somewhat axiomatic that
people will, in general, be more motivated to participate in a
system if they have seen others within that system deal with
the same problems they do everyday. 

I propose that both of these problems could be addressed by
establishing what (for lack of a better term) I will call
“Government School” (GS).  The underlying idea is to ensure
that those whom we have entrusted with the power to control
our lives and our freedom actually understand on a real,
visceral level the consequences of their decisions.  In
addition, internalization of these consequences would help
educate lawmakers about implementation of the laws that are
passed.  It is one thing to milk some hot button issue by
writing a bill about it, and quite another to write an
effective piece of legislation.  Developing statutes is a
perfect illustration of Murphy’s Law; “Anything that can go
wrong, will.”   

A poorly written law is a mine field of unintended
consequences.  While we may not all agree on what laws should
be written, we should at least make sure that the people who
write them are competent to do so.  After all, we insist that
doctors, lawyers, therapists and even postal workers go
through a training process before they can ply their trade. 
Yet, we do not require any kind of formal training to run our
country.  We elect congressmen and senators and give them some
token orientation then turn them loose to make laws that will
affect the entire country.  Our President doesn’t even have to
go to this much trouble.  It is generally assumed that if you
are elected, you must by caveat be qualified to hold office. 
This is a misguided and often dangerous assumption.  

So, what we need is specific instruction for elected officials
so that they may be aware of the ramifications of their
decisions.  Let’s use the office of President as an example of
what I intend.  

Presidential elections are, of course, held in November every
four years.  The winner of the election doesn’t take office
until January of the following year.  This leaves a transition
time of about two months give or take.  I propose we move back
the transfer of power to the beginning of the next fiscal
year, September 1st, lengthening the transition to 10 months. 
During this time the president elect will be paid his regular
salary and will be required to attend a course of instruction
designed to qualify him to hold national office.  In the
tradition of legal and medical training an emphasis is based
on exposure to real experiences.  In this instance, the goal
is to expose the officeholder to the realities of his or her
office.  If one is going to design economic policy, then one
should experience economics from all perspectives.  

For instance, one phase of this course could be “Poverty 101”.
 Keeping in mind that the President elect will never be placed
in actual physical danger or deprived of vital nourishment, it
would be relatively easy to simulate the day-to-day realities
of low wage existence in this country.  Perhaps the student
could spend a month in simulated poverty; having to live in a
shoddily built public housing complex with no working elevator
and sporadic electricity (all simulated of course).  The
student would be required to hold a minimum wage job in some
sort of service capacity.  And, while the student would get
adequate food, it just wouldn’t taste very good; consisting
mostly of Ramen noodles and Kraft Mac & Cheese. 

Another phase might involve several weeks in a prison lockdown
unit; yet another could be a military boot-camp; another might
be to manage an actual budget for a middle class family of
four.  Of course, while this is all happening, the
President-elect is receiving instruction from former
congressmen and past presidents on the mechanics of governing,
design of law and all functions of the executive branch.  The
specific program could, of course, be adapted to the
individual students’ life experience.  Thus, a candidate who
had experienced poverty as a child might get more instruction
in administration or macro-economics, and vice versa.

This entire program would also handily address our perception
problem.  If the public sees the candidate go through the
various phases of the course they will know that the candidate
has at least a familiarity with their everyday problems. 
While there would likely be great skepticism about the
legitimacy of this experience, we will have created a starting
point for establishing a common ground between government and
the people:  Hence, the possibility of a more involved
electorate and a possible resolution of dissonance.  

In the end, we will have to face the fact that we have created
our own problems.  Politicians may be, as a rule, weak willed
and content with only telling people what they want to hear
but, in their defense, they are only doing what it takes to
succeed in their chosen profession.  If we want a political
system that is responsive to our needs rather than our
desires, we must be willing to listen and act on unpleasant
truths.  Our problems need solutions, not slogans; our values
need action, not symbols.  Are we strong enough to allow our
actions to reflect our ideals?  Or, will we continue to pay
lip service to freedom, liberty, equality and opportunity
while undermining these ideas with inconsistent actions?
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
55. I had such a parent myself
Anyway, one of the things I was saying is that I think the worst and longest-lasting effect of growing up with a neurotic parent is the confusion and anger that the kids experience as they try to cope with the mismatch between their own perceptions of reality and their parents'. Outside the home, there's one reality; but at home, they are forced to either deny that reality in order to play along with their parents, or constantly confront and defy their parents in an attempt to force them to acknowledge the fantastic nature of their own beliefs about the real world. For kids who take option #2, as my partner did, one of the hardest things to accept is the fact that the parent simply cannot be argued out of these beliefs, no matter how much evidence and logic you mobilize against them--because they cling to these beliefs for emotional and psychological reasons that are stronger than rational argument.

I had a very difficult father, and I had a lot of anger, and other serious problems, as a kid, as a teenager, and as a young man. I since came to realize that my relationship with my father had a lot, if not everything, to do with my anger and other issues.

First of all, my father did do many very nice and very good things, and I had many good times with him, and he could be fun when he was in a good and agreeable mood. He was not by any means the worst father or worst parent anybody ever had.

Even so he sometimes bordered on being abusive, especially emotionally and psychologically (though I did get my share of spankings as a kid). He often decided, in Godlike fashion, that I needed to be yelled at, scolded, lectured to, or treated like I had committed a crime or a heinous sin, when I made an honest mistake, honestly forgot something, or something was not in accordance with his standards. And he would invariably say that what he was saying or doing was "for my own good", and done with the best of motives.

And he was often very poor at understanding, or even trying to understand, a difficult or sensitive issue, or something that was really bothering me or upsetting me, from my point of view. He would feel he had to lecture me or scold me, or talk sense into me.

He always said he loved me, and he indeed did many very good things. While he was alive I dared not question that he loved me, and that while he had his faults, he was basically a good and decent person and really did want the best for me. And it did not occur to me to question those things.

However I had quite a temper, and quite a few anger issues.

My father died when I was in my mid-30's, a little over 20 years ago, and it was about a year after he had died that I came to realize how angry I still was at him, how much of his behavior really was abusive, and how much that had to do with the problems I had been having previously. I have to say that it helped, in my becoming aware of my anger toward my dad, and the truth about his abusive behavior, that he was no longer around to talk me out of my feelings (something he was always good at doing), and I no longer had to fear anything from him. (All this is true even though I also had the normal sadness and grief at the death of someone close to me.)

I spent several years in much therapy dealing with my anger, and all the issues that I was not able to resolve with my dad while he was alive. Such issues included the very painful realization that I was not going to have the satisfaction of being able to deal with my dad the way I very badly wished I had been able to while he was alive, and anxiety of what problems I would still have with him if he were alive.

I have had some satisfaction of being able to deal, at least in a couple of instances, with people who were somewhat like my dad. And I have had a much better sense of what I have been willing and not willing to accept or put up with from people.

I find, after having realized the truth about my dad, and that much of his behavior was abusive, and dealing with the issues, that in general I am much less angry, overall, than I used to be.

I will say of my own mother, that overall I get along with her well, but she did, many times and for the most part, go along with my dad when he was alive. I for the most part have not talked about my dad with her, except that I will acknowledge that he did do some good things when she mentions him. I had thought about letting her know how I felt about my dad, but was concerned it would do more harm than good, and now do not feel it is necessary.

My mom was for Bush * in 2000, and she went along with our actions in Iraq in 2003. In fact she called me the day the statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled to tell me how wonderful that was, and how our country is a great country. I sent her a not very nice e-mail in reply. (In fact that was an important confrontation. Many times when I was younger one or both of my parents would talk me into going along with something that deep down I did not agree with, but felt I had no choice.) My mom and I have not talked about politics any time since, and I do not know if she voted for * in 2004, or if she still feels he is OK (if not necessarily wonderful). I am very certain she wants to avoid talking about anything that will lead to bad feelings between us.

I think of my mom having gone along with *, and with our actions in Iraq, much the same as I feel about her having gone along with my dad.

I did end a 30 year friendship in 2005 after my friend had voted for * in 2004, and indicated he did not have any serious second thoughts about doing so. He felt our actions in Iraq were the right thing for us to do. He was a fundamentalist Christian, but did not fit the worst stereotypes of people of that persuasion. However it was unacceptable to me that even in 2004 he had no serious problems with *, and he was in favor of our actions in Iraq. One thing he had said that especially bothered me was that it was OK that we did not find weapons of mass destruction, because intelligence is not an exact science.

I feel it was a healthy thing to be able to make the mutual decision with my friend to end our friendship, and to do so on good terms, appreciating our past friendship, but also having a strong sense of something that was unacceptable to me.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
56. Absolutely brilliant writing Plaid Adder
Edited on Mon Dec-11-06 03:50 AM by BushDespiser12
Thank you for providing such a tangible analogy to help us derive a better measure of comprehension for our frustration and anger.

:kick: & R

On edit: way late for a recommend :-(
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 03:49 AM
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57. The country's shame -more like
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