Sex for money - my view on it (it really is legal all over the US....) discuss...

[The Straight Story]

Here is a simplistic view of this issue:

1. Pay a person for sex, you can go to jail.

2. Pay a person to make a sex video with you (see the internet....) or take still pics of you having sex with them, and it is ok.

Search the web. Lots of people having sex and getting paid for it. Only difference it seems is that if you are making money off of sex and creating porn movies, it is ok.

Word to the wise: If you want to pay for sex, tell the person you are having it with that they are being hired to make a movie or website. Then it is OK because it is a corporate enterprise.

Damned sad to me. Women and men are arrested daily for what others get away with all the time. Get a business license, get a camera, and you can pay for sex all day long.

Discuss.

[youthere]

1. Doesn't make sense..

how it can be against the law to sell something that is perfectly legal to give away.

[TahitiNut]

4. It's an "all-volunteer service" like the Army.

:evilgrin:

[jannyk]

31. The same way it can be illegal to use an item that

is legal to buy - cigarettes. You can buy them just about anywhere - perfectly legal - just try using them anywhere - nope, can't do that it's against the law.

[bananas]

42. Alcohol

It's illegal to sell alcohol to minors,
but it isn't illegal for minors to drink,
and it isn't illegal to give minors alcohol.

[WinkyDink]

55. Your second and third points are wrong. All three of those acts are illegal.

And parents in their own home can be held liable if they give their minor children alcohol. And most assuredly if they offer it to their kids' friends.

[bananas]

68. "while it is commonly believed that the minimum drinking age is 21, ..."

"while it is commonly believed that the minimum drinking age is 21, people can legally drink below that age under many different circumstances."
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. Actually, it IS illegal to give minors alcohol...

the charge is "contributing to the delinquency of a minor".

[Lilith Velkor]

61. Somebody better alert the Archbishop about this.

:yoiks:

[Mythsaje]

2. Seems there was a guy not too long ago

who was trying to shut down the porn industry based upon this reasoning. Didn't make it very far, near as I can tell.

It is a weird dichotomy, isn't it? Prostitution is only illegal if there isn't a camera involved.

[LynzM]

6. Weird.

Your last sentence is... well, true, but strange.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. You raise a fascinating point

I can't see much difference.

[Kelly Rupert]

5. Or pay a person for sex, but stipulate in a contract

that they are the only person that you are allowed to have sex with (and vice-versa), and in return you grant them an equal share of everything you own. Why, that's the moral foundation of our entire society, so long as that person has genitals which you lack.

[Q3JR4]

12. That's so sad,

but funny at the same time.

:( :spray:

[LynzM]

15. Yeah, it totally is.

Because it's true, and awful, all at the same time.

[Kelly Rupert]

22. It's the latter because it's the former n/t

[ComerPerro]

69. you sound like Bill Maher, lol

[unblock]

7. actually, it takes more than just a camera

it also takes a carefully crafted and signed legal document, and you'd be foolish not to run it past a lawyer.

a further irony is that since appearing in a movie is work, you are REQUIRED to pay for sex. well, technically, you're paying for acting, but....

[progdonkey]

8. I could be wrong, but I think that's only for the Valley...

I think in most municipalities, if money exchanges hands specifically for sex, it's illegal, whether it's videotaped or not. In the Valley, though, because they get so much in taxes from porn, they've made it legal to pay for sex as long as it's to make a porn movie.

Kind of like with gambling and prostitution in Nevada: illegal just about everywhere else, but because it's such a huge source of income, it's legalized there.

I get what you're saying, though. If you take a woman out to McDonald's on a date and smooth talk her into having sex with you on the first date that night, you're a player--you're a cheap scumbag who basically got sex for about $10 and probably did a fair share of lying out your ass about how you felt a "connection" with the girl, or whatever--but you've done nothing illegal.

If you had gone up to the same woman and said, "Here's $100. I want to have sex with you. I don't want a relationship," that's solicitation of prostitution.

In the first case, the woman gets probably $5 worth of fast food and a good helping of bullshit fed to her, and she probably ends up feeling like a dumb slut the next morning when she realizes she fell for your lines. In the second, the woman gets $100 and knows going into it exactly what's up: the guy doesn't care about her; he wants sex. Yet the first is legal and the second illegal. Makes no sense.

[The Straight Story]

14. good points, will check that out

I see a lot of porn on the net (all by accident...not) and I wonder, how do those people get away with paying someone for sex but the avg joe goes to jail (and the avg woman who chose to use her own body)?

[cynatnite]

18. Wiping off the monitor...

What'd I'd like to know is why some idiot girl would have sex with a guy who took her to McD's?

:rofl: That was hilarious. May I borrow that? I have a few friends who'd get a huge kick out of it.

[Frank Cannon]

48. Hey, hot stuff, can I buy you a Quarter Pounder value meal?

Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Say no more, say no more.

[progdonkey]

60. sure, go for it... :-)

I was just trying to come up with what would satisfy the lowest possible criteria for something being a "date," though maybe I went a little too far into make-believe. ;-) (though, after seeing Flavor of Love, maybe the idea that a girl would be satisfied with McDonald's isn't too wild... One of the girls was talking about this one-on-one picnic with Flav, and she said, "It was so romantic; it was better than KFC!" :rofl: ).

[jelly]

19. makes sense if you consider

that the woman who was bullshitted, once she realizes she was bullshitted, will be angry, because it was not her intent to sell her body. She will feel degraded and may be angry at herself for getting bullshitted but most of her anger will be rightfully directed at the man. She has a good chance of walking away when all is said and done with her self-respect intact. Next time, she may have a keener sense for bullshit, and will avoid getting duped altogether. Bullshitted woman goes on to have a happy and fulfilling life.

The woman who becomes part of a system that "voluntarily" allows men to use her for sex in return for money will keep going back for money, losing another little piece of her soul and self-respect every time she does so. In time, she will turn to drugs to quell the pain.

[The Straight Story]

21. Don't we all use our bodies for money?

Going to bed at a certain time, not smoking dope (or cigarettes), not drinking, and then waking our bodies up and driving through hell to appease our employers for hours on end. We sell our physical selves, and sometimes mentally, to others to make money.

Why does sex make it different?

[jelly]

37. Why is sex different,

well personally, I believe sex is something special that ideally should be shared with another as an expression of love or affection. I would think that having a career in porn would erode your sense of its value in this respect, and reduce your chances of having an emotionally fulfilling relationship with a person you love, if that is what you desire. I don't see quite that level of devastating compromise being made with other career choices, even other unpleasant career choices.

Now, you may say that's just my view, and perhaps I am the product of a strict old-fashioned upbringing, and that women in the porn industry may see sex very differently than I do, and that they are entitled to their differing view. But here's the thing; I think lots of the people who "choose" a career in sex actually began by sharing the same values that I do. I think that many of them find themselves in desperate circumstances doing desperate things that they would have never imagined themselves doing in more innocent times. I think if I were to make a decision to sell my body, I would end up sad, feeling as though I had lost something of myself. I cannot help but to feel that many if not most of the women who "choose" sex as a career feel the same, and so I am sad for them.

[mondo joe]

58. But why would YOUR opinion about sex outrank another person's?

Substitute beliefs about PREGNANCY and you're just as anti-choice as the worst right winger.

[progdonkey]

59. women are incapable of enjoying sex?

That's implicit in your second paragraph. You seem to be operating under the presumption that a woman can't enjoy sex just as much as a man. If a woman really enjoys having sex, because, well, it's fun and feels good, why would it be surprising that she might willingly get paid to do something she enjoys so much? There are so many female pornstars now who were never abused as children or ever even tried drugs, but they do porn because they just really enjoy sex and they can make a whole lot of money doing something they enjoy.

Another problem is that you're undercutting exactly why prostitution is illegal (and why doing porn should be as well): if the woman is a victim of exploitation, why does the prostitute also get arrested?

As for your first argument, how can you be sure she'll react angrily? Even if she does, how can you be sure her anger will then turn into a "keener sense for bullshit" and not just make her generally more distrusting and/or closed off from men? Say she does react angrily, but it results in her thinking that "all men are pigs," so she treats future boyfriends like crap, which in turn results in her having many failed relationships with good guys who get sick of being treated poorly. The end result is that she can't maintain a good relationship because of her continued resentment about having been taken advantage of that one time. Yet the jackass who took advantage of her is not viewed at all as a criminal, but if he'd given her money up front instead of lying to her, he would be.

Also, do you find it rather strange that you're in effect arguing that the "player" in the first scenario is helping the woman by making her stronger and enabling her to live a happier and more fulfilling life, whereas the John/porn director is harming the woman, even though the former lied and manipulated his way into bed with the woman, and the John was completely honest about what he wanted and what the woman would get in return?

The heart of the issue is this: why should the government get involved when two adults decide to engage in sex? Whether it's because they're deeply in love or it's just a business transaction, why should the government have any jurisdiction over it? Why is it legal for me to take a girl to a cheap dinner and lie to her to get into her pants and then leave her, heart-broken, but it'd be illegal if I instead just said I'd give her a couple hundred bucks if she had sex with me? I'm not saying it'd be something to be proud about or that it's not immoral and unseemly, but why is it illegal, when both parties know exactly what they're getting?

[blogslut]

40. correct

I am not super up on the details but in the US, the Valley is just about the only place where performing sex acts for the camera has been legally sanctioned. In other words, unless the porn is made in a certain part of California, it's considered prostitution.

Those that perform and create adult content elsewhere in the US are basically defying the law.

[uncle ray]

45. except porn is made in every major city every day.

yeah, it's all a game of semantics, but it's legal, nobody is trying very hard to prosecute actors who end up having sex on camera.

also gambling is legal almost everywhere. it may be regulated, but it is legal.

[raccoon]

52. I second that emotion.

Everything is more upfront with the second case, the woman being paid $100. Both parties enter the transaction knowing just what's what.

[Mojambo]

9. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal.

Why isn't selling fucking legal?!

-George Carlin.

[pinto]

10. OK. The sex for money I'm most aware of has nothing to do with corporate interests;

it's survival sex, in many instances - sex for a bed, a meal, a share, the rent, etc.
Or just sex for money, straight up...

I think I see your point about porn movies. That's a real small piece of the picture, though, imo.

[Skittles]

11. I think it is completely disgusting

but I've never understood why it is illegal

[jelly]

13. excellent connection

I dislike both forms of what I consider to be exploitation of defenseless young women. The demand for that kind of filth sucks vulnerable young women into a dark dark world of degradation and drug addiction from which many never escape with their health and dignity intact. Were it not for the unrelenting demand for porn, there would be no temptation for these women to go for the easy bucks the industry promises. The porn industry hates women, encouraging the view that women are base objects to be used for the pleasure of men and treated in unspeakable ways. I believe in freedom to follow one's desired lifestyle but for most of these women, I cannot believe that what they do is truly a voluntary choice. It was a decision they were compelled to make as a result of troubled childhoods and serious mental issues in some cases, a lack of money in others. I do not see well-off women with real opportunities voluntarily following this path in life (I'm talking the hard core stuff, now -- I don't know about the occasional soft porn made by women with actual acting talent hoping to hit it big as "real" actresses someday). I feel sorry sorry sorry for these women no matter how loudly they may protest that it is their choice and that I am patronizing them by second guessing their choices.

In any event it seems to me that so many people oppose prostitution but not porn. By your post I couldn't tell your position on either but you have managed to expose how one is little more than the other in corporate sheep's clothing, such that if you are opposed to one, you should be opposed to both.

[The Straight Story]

16. Maybe some just like using their bodies like football players do

to make an income.

I know some may wince at the comparison, but to me it is valid. One guy gets his ass beat all up to entertain people, and one chooses to use their bodies for sex. Both made choices with their physical being. One gets highly played and many accolades, the other gets shamed and people wondering if they are mentally stable.

[jelly]

23. Funny you should say that I also have misgivings about football players destroying their bodies

in the name of entertainment, as a matter of fact. Boxing bothers me as well, more than football. But I have to admit that they do not bother me as much as porn. I'm not sure why.

[The Straight Story]

25. For me it is all about personal choice

You own your body and you do with it as you wish. The more the government attempts to control it, the less freedom you have over it.

[jelly]

32. I am generally very liberal in that respect and believe people should have a choice

However some choices strike me as so horrfying that I cannot get myself to believe that the choices were genuine, voluntary choices. Maybe what it comes down to is that I have an extremely visceral reaction to the thought of sexual or violent exploitation of people, and that that the visceral feeling gets in the way of my biting a bullet I need to bite in order to be consistent in my views. Perhaps some day I will, or perhaps I will discover a principled basis for believing in choice generally but not in choice to make certain decisions, but for now I'll just say that I feel very protective of the exploited people of the world and I don't see that there is anything wrong with that.

[mondo joe]

66. How is that different than ANY OTHER CHOICE?

Maybe some women don't truly have a free voluntary choice to abort.

Or to not abort.

Or to work at McDonalds.

Or to join the military.

[Mythsaje]

17. So, basically, modeling and porn are practically the same thing...

theoretically, at least. Except, I suppose, a person born to money could rationalize one easier than the other.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Well, I guess I'm ideologically consistent, then...

because I think that what a CONSENTING ADULT does with his or her own body is his or her own damn business, period, end of story.

The same logic that says "defenseless young women" (over 18, mind you) are "incapable" of "really" making decisions about their own bodies when they choose to participate in legal porn, is identical to the logic the right wing uses when they say women are "victimized" by the abortion industry.

See, if you make a choice that WE don't like, or a choice that personally Pisses US off -with YOUR body, mind you- then obviously you're not "capable" of really making that choice- you don't know what you're doing, and you need the big nanny/daddy state to protect you.

I call bullshit. If you're an adult, you can make your own damn decisions about your body- that includes having sex for money, in front of or not in front of a camera. Anything else is just infantalizing people who don't happen to share your moral biases.

And prostitution is far safer for everyone concerned when it's legal and regulated.

[jelly]

28. On consistency

I would strongly hesitate before I would conclude that a decision whether or not to follow a career in porn and consent to being GANG RAPED in exchange for badly needed cash is the same as a decision to have an abortion.

You want to talk consistency, here's some consistency for you.

Men control women through porn, by disseminating the perception in society that women are base objects to be used in disgusting ways for men's pleasure.

Men also control women by denying them the choice to have an abortion, by forcing them to bear children against their will.

I would be willing to agree that maybe a minority of these women actually enjoy what they do and that not every one of them women perceives what they are doing as less than human. But enough of them do, whether or not they openly admit it (why do you think so many of them are hooked on drugs??) and it is so harmful to the cause of women's rights as a whole that I believe there should at least be more serious controls. Too bad we just can't depend on men to stop wanting to see women in degraded positions, or the problem would go away all on its own.

[The Straight Story]

29. but going back to sports, etc

Don't we all use our bodies for money - and since women are doing the same in porn, aren't they utilizing their talents (looks, etc) for the same thing but only via a different medium?

Some give the health and well being of their bodies to sports, some to sex, others to working each day for a company that tells them how to dress and live during their off time.

[jelly]

34. True, and most people need to exchange labor for wealth in order to get by, but

the choices available are quite diverse with respect to the effect the jobs have on the individual. Some occupations encourage intellectual or physical growth and well-being, turning us into more powerful, peaceful, and spiritually content individuals. Others destroy you. Then there's all the jobs in between. I believe it is unethical for a society to place a stamp of approval on a career choice that destroys most of the people who choose to take part in it. That it destroys people seems so obvious to me and I guess that that is part of what drives my strong beliefs, when as a general matter I vigorously support the right of individuals to partake in almost any other kind of occupation or lifestyle choice. Perhaps if you showed me evidence to suggest that the industry does not in fact destroy women, that the women are really truly happy doing what they do, I would be willing to modify my position.

[LeftyMom]

36. Porn does not equal gang rape

First of all, most porn scenes involve pairs of people, so just by pure mechanics gang rape is not occurring. Secondly, with porn there's documentation and contracts set up in advance, so we know that consent was given. Absent evidence that consent was withdrawn, rape is not a reasonable allegation or one to be made so lightly. To do so is to trivialize real rape victims.

In short, a woman can consent to have sex with one or five or fifty people on camera, and she doesn't have to justify that decision to you or anybody else, because it's her own body and she can do with it what she pleases. Should you find acts she willingly participates in degrading, your only recourse is not to support them with your dollars, because it's really none of your business.

PS Women make, sell and buy porn too. That tripe about the porn industry being a tool of patriarchy is sexist.

[jelly]

39. Mechanical consent does not equate voluntary choice

I believe we are wrong to overlook the suffering of suggestible women sucked into the porn industry because there was a document that was signed, and who are we to question that signature? Who are we to question how many drugs were pumped into that young woman to get her to sign that agreement, how many more drugs were pumped into her to get her to lay on a table as 50 men take turns with her? I did not mean to minimize the suffering of rape victims but to me, if consent was reluctant and the psychological results are devastating, then what is happening to some of these women is perhaps not exactly rape but not wholly unrelated to rape. For that matter, who are we to question the choice of Americans to enter into credit card agreements with universal default clauses? Who can blame the greedy corporations for exploiting universal default clauses and using a variety of bullshit excuses to jack up the interest rates of shocked consumers with perfect payment histories? And by that same agreement to deny them the right to bring a class action to redress their rights? It was all in the card holder agreement, which they consented to as a condition of obtaining the credit card. Geez, they should have been more careful about what they signed on to.

Here's my point; there will always be unethical people in the porn industry (okay, male and female, but MOSTLY male) who without contraints, will be willing to destroy people at all costs for a profit. Laws are needed in the porn industry just as surely as they are needed in the credit card industry to keep immoral practices to a minimum. I believe we are doing more women in the porn industry a disservice by ignoring their suffering than there are women whose sensibilities would be offended at the suggestion that the choice they made, which may have been voluntary, was not voluntary. My cost/benefit analysis comes out on the side of believing that the industry as it exists today is immoral and a violent exploiter of women.

[LeftyMom]

41. I think you're missing a few things.

1. Porn is pretty heavily regulated, at least in California and to a lesser extent New York, where most US commercial porn is made. (In other countries, coercion may be more of an issue.)

2. Porn (again, of the US commercial variety) is made by a small and largely self-regulating community. Everybody knows who's an asshole, who won't do this act or that, who likes to work with whom and also who's on what. Drugs aren't a huge issue because nobody wants to buy porn with hollow eyed crack zombies or whatever.

3. You're blurring the line. Either there is consent or there isn't. Just as a woman may choose to do porn for crappy reasons, a woman can choose to screw her loser boyfriend for the wrong reasons. Bad decision-making does not equal rape.

4. Even if somebody later regrets having done porn, it won't "destroy them." Lots of people make decisions they regret and move on. Actually, since the testing regime is so constant in porn and so many big companies require condoms now, porn is probably less likely to destroy a person than casual sex for free.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. If the example you float there really took place, it would be a crime.

Getting someone drunk or high so that they don't know what they're doing, and taking advantage of them, is against the law.

Like it or not, most of the women in the porn industry appear in repeated films and pursue it aggressively like any other career. The idea that these women "don't know what they're doing" and are just zombies pumped full of drugs against their will is, frankly, insulting to them.

And you assume that the porn industry is not regulated, and likewise you assume that women in porn would all immediately head for the exits if someone came and told them what a rotten deal they were getting. Have you actually talked to any women in the adult entertainment business? (You can probably find one or two at least ancillarially involved around here)

I would suggest that perhaps you should do some more research on the subject.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. So, the way for women to have control over their own decisions is for YOU to make those decisions

for them.

You can throw all the agit-prop at me that you want, the bottom line is, as long as we're talking about consenting adults, they should have the right to make their own decisions about their bodies and their careers. Period.

So now the qualification for whether someone is capable of making their own decisions is whether they "enjoy what they do"? I know a lot of people who don't like their jobs. I wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed to do them if that's what they say they want to do. I certainly wouldn't argue that they're addled and somehow incapable of making decisions, and as such need to be infantalized and protected from the big, bad world by a Nanny State.

And what, precisely, is porn? The vast majority of porn depicts adults having consensual, heterosexual sex. (Some porn depicts consensual adult gay or lesbian sex. One wonders who is being "exploited" in that material) That's all. People screwing. Or, as you put it, "used in disgusting ways"... is sex disgusting? What porn have you been watching?

"Men control women through porn".. Makes for a nice bumper sticker, I suppose, but can you back up that statement with any kind of data or evidence?

Is it like, remote control, or something?

You want to talk about control? Too bad we have a society filled with puritan-minded people who don't understand that when you're talking, again, about consenting adults, decision-making is best left to the INDIVIDUAL.

You also say "Men also control women by denying them the choice to have an abortion, by forcing them to bear children against their will." That, too, makes for a nice little piece of agit-prop, but it doesn't explain why there are millions of "pro-life" women, and millions of us men who are pro-choice. Are you suggesting that if it was only women who were trying to tell other women what they can and can't do with their reproductive systems and uterii, it would be okay? I'm sure Phylis Schlafly would be more than happy to sign the HLA, if she were in the White House.

See, 'cuz as far as I'm concerned, as a man, I don't have a say in whether or not any abortions should take place for one reason only- because I can't get pregnant. A woman has a say in the matter, but only in ONE case- that which involves her own body. It's not up to any woman to tell any other woman she can't have an abortion any more than it is up to me.

Likewise... so you don't like porn? Great. Don't buy it, don't watch it, don't participate in it. But in my ever-so-humble opinion, it's not your perogative to tell other women (or men) what they can and can't do with their bodies, any more than they have the right to tell you what you can or can't do with yours. Once you start second-guessing the moral choices that other consenting adults make about their own bodies, you open the door for other, more puritan and control-minded people to do the same to you.

It's a perfectly straightforward concept- but apparently many people are so wedded to the need to dictate the terms of other people's personal lives that they can't -or won't- grasp it.

[jelly]

50. Not exactly

I don't need to make the decisions for them. Ideally, what I would like to see are mechanisms in place to ensure that the choices they are making are truly voluntary.

I like you. I appreciate that you seem passionate about your views and respect the principled basis on which you rest your beliefs -- as I said, I am generally very liberal in my approach to civil liberties and judging by your screen name I suspect we would agree on most other political issues. I guess what it comes down to is the true state of the women in the porn industry, and while I admit to knowing very little about the practical reality of it neither can you be sure about their reality. Maybe my concern in misplaced but don't worry, porn will be around for a long time; my voice poses no threat to the industry whatsoever.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. On the fundamentals, I think we agree.

The basis of arguing that consenting adults should be able to make up their own minds about things rests on consent and adults. If people aren't really consenting, the point is moot.

And granted, that's not to say all the choices people can make are good ones- just that people do have the freedom to make even bad choices.

Peace.

[Porcupine]

47. I'd say women control MEN through porn.

How many men have the opportunity to have sex with several attractive women and get paid for it? Damn few. It's like winning the lottery.

Most of us are lucky to get A SINGLE WOMAN we find attractive to have infrequent and begrudged sex with us. We are expected to keep a steady stream of bribes flowing to ensure that even that begrudged service is given.

A lucky fraction find partners whose sexual appetites are close to their own. Most just give up and turn to porn rather than play the begging/rejection game one more time.

You will have a hard time finding a room full of women throwing money at naked women for the privilidge of watching them dance. The reverse is true just outside the city limits of every large town in the US.

Men work really hard and frequently at really disgusting jobs. Your toilet works because a small army of men keep the shit flowing. Many of these jobs threaten life and limb on a daily basis. I know far too many men with missing fingers due to workplace accidents. They would be thrilled to have a job whose description ran: take off all your clothes in a warm room in front of strangers; earn 3 times your current daily wage in 4 hours.

Men are the helpless creatures who have to pay for the most minimal appeasement of the most basic human function. Sex and cuddling.

You got it ALL wrong.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

67. Oh please

If you look at the sex industry as a whole you will see that a small handful of businessmen are profitting handsomely off of it. Most strippers, porn actors, and prostitutes are not very well-paid in comparison.

Furthermore, the vast majority of men do not work in disgusting and degrading jobs. Those who do usually get paid pretty handsomely. The guys who keep the shit flowing where I live charge an arm and a leg. They make good money. And do you think no women do that type of work these days? Where have you been? Not to mention some of the female-dominated occupations. No disagreeable conditions there. Nosirree. Its all bon bons and rose petals for the nurse's aides at the hospital!

But hey, if you think your job is degrading and workers in the sex industry have it better, you can always trade in your shit plunger and get a job in it. Take it up the ass a few times and come back and let us know!

Finally, if men are so "helpless" in the face of feminine wiles, then why are they in all the leadership positions? Seems to me you're making the argument that they shouldn't be.

[uncle ray]

46. what about the defenseless young men being exploited?

what's the difference?

men and women both choose to participate in porn. a woman can be a good actress and be a success in porn. a man has to perform well sexually, he CAN'T fake it. men working in porn get paid maybe a tenth of what women get paid. why is the man who has no other career options other than to use his foot long dick in porn not being exploited as a piece of meat? he chose voluntarily to be in porn, but a woman in a similar situation had no choice and is being exploited? what about the men's troubled childhoods that drove them to porn? what about the straight young men who can't make enough to live on doing straight porn, so they do gay porn, even though they are not gay? are they not being exploited?

your apparent view that porn is slavery of women is skewed. the industry isn't perfect, but is far from the one sided story of exploitation of women that you seem to believe. women are free to say no to a career in porn just like any young man is free to say no to a career of selling drugs.

[jelly]

51. But once they say yes

I would imagine it's hard to go back. They've already betrayed their own values; may as well stick around and do more of the same for more cash. Most of what I have expressed applies equally to men. I focused on women because I am a product of the same society as they, raised with certain values, and I cannot imagine doing what they do. And for the record, I am not religious (not that there's anything wrong with that); I am agnostic, have been since I was at least 12, so it's not like my position is coming from a place of fanatic faith in a God who will smote them in the afterlife. I grew up being taught that sex is special and I believed what I was taught. My intuition comes from a place where I have a hard time believing that many women who grow up in the same society that I did and who make that choice do not ultimately come away from the experience feeling if not openly, then secretly miserable with themselves and unable to have a deeply fulfilling relationship with a family and all that happy stuff. In the same society in which I grew up men are not committed to a perception that sex is special. It is "okay" and even macho for them to have multiple partners. I don't think men in our society are handling the same emotional baggage going into a decision to make porn. Personally, consistent with my views on sex, I would not want to date a guy with a long history of casual sex, who treats women as playthings.

[uncle ray]

64. what makes you think everybody has the same values as you?

your argument makes a good case for why you yourself would avoid participating in porn, fine, don't do it.

yes, some people are exploited in porn, but there are many more that are not. there are lots of "empowered" women who have been successful in the industry, many of the people behind the scenes directing etc. are women. women who have values. there are many couples in porn who ONLY have sex with their partner, they have values. if your judgment of the porn industry is from what you've seen on screen, then you made your judgment off faulty information. like any other film, porn is acting, the actors will go through the script before the scene, all parties involved make clear what they will and will not do. porn has nothing to do with casual sex, the actors are generally a tight knit group who know each other and get tested on frequent intervals for STDs. working in porn is probably many times safer than having casual sex.

and frankly it's kind of insulting for you to say that women automatically have emotional baggage and men do not. if that mindset comes from your valued upbringing, then maybe there is something wrong with your upbringing and have some emotional baggage to deal with.

indeed sex IS special, and enjoyed by couples who enjoy some additional visual stimulation while doing it, so they get some porn. a couple that enjoys a good healthy romp while getting fresh ideas from a movie are less likely to screw around on their partner.

[mondo joe]

57. Why do you think people's choices should be subject to your belief?

[marmar]

20. It's the puritanical silliness that still guides so much American decision-making...

Personally, I'm all for a little Dutch pragmatism.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. We spend all kinds of taxpayer money telling consenting adults what they can't do with their bodies.

It's fucking ridiculous, excuse the pun.

[The Straight Story]

27. I am with you on that

Example: I just saw a commercial for a new movie, about football. Team dies on a plane, new coach is there to teach new team how to use their bodies to win (and make money for the university).

Your body, your choice.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

30. It's like drugs

Decriminalize it and regulate it for the good of all involved. Offer viable avenues out for those who so desire.

Let's face it, it's not going away, historically it never has.

[JeremyWestenn]

33. There is a double standard...

In that pornography is a legalised form of prostitution but outright prostitution is not. You could literally pick up a prostitute on the street and say to them, " I'm going to pay you to make a porno with me. " as oppose to saying, " I'm gonna pay you to be my prostitute for the night, ".

It reminds me of the Paparazzi. The only thing that seperates them from being stalkers and prosecutable is a camera.

[Union Thug]

35. Marry a person for money and you are called "marrying up"

instead of a prostitute. Go figure.

[LisaL]

38. Porn being a legal industry and prostitution being illegal

never made sense to me either.

[donheld]

49. It's my body - if I want to sell it for money that should be my business

not the government.

[Toucano]

53. They're not sex workers, they're ACTORS

LOL!

:rofl:

[porphyrian]

54. As long as it's between consenting adults, I don't give a shit what they do.

I don't understand why so many people are obsessed with telling others what they're allowed to do in the bedroom.

As long as health issues are addressed, I think it's ridiculous to maintain anti-prostitution laws. Your post underlines the inanity in red felt-tipped marker.

[Beetwasher]

62. This Thread Is Making Me Horny

That is all, carry on. :evilgrin:

[Catherine Vincent]

65. I thought sex threads were forbidden?

Not that I agree with that. :)