no forgiveness in america (personal story)

[oldlady]

something is bugging me and won't let go. I don't post often, but read daily. You all are so insightful it's usually been said when I come along! This is kind of a whiny personal thing, but I think it's indicative of how America has changed in my lifetime. I'm moving on to 50 soon. I live/work in a low-income neighborhood. Same address for 20plus years. Same husband for 25. Same job for almost 13. I run a community learning center. Lots of education programs for pre-school/school-age/adults. I write grants and do managerial stuff, but I also do hands-on programs & homework every day with about 60 kids.

We have a fairly crummy elementary school and I decided this was the year (my kids are older now) to begin volunteering in the schools to help build a better relationship. Those formalized partnership arrangements aren't what we need. We need to know the teachers well enough to help them see our kids in a new light--i.e. each year when I receive teacher recommendations for a university sponsored program, about half of the -teachers will answer "no" to the question: is this child likely to attend a post-secondary school? wtf...these are second and third graders...how can you say no? post-secondary ed can mean anything, even cosmetology school or auto repair at the tech school for crying out loud. So, I went to the school and offered my time. A great fit, I would think, since about 60 of the kids in this particular school are "mine" from the neighborhood & I know them. It would also help me to know if they are forgetting things when I work with them after-school (assignments, permission slips, whatever)

Okay, it's taking me so long to say this because it's really hard for me. After a month of volunteering, I got a call from downtown and was told I must 'cease and desist' in my volunteering efforts. why? because 27 years ago I stole a can of tuna and a cucumber from a grocery store, when I was selling plasma to eat, at a time between jobs. I failed to report the arrest for two reasons: I had taken a first offenders course that I thought removed it from my record. AND it's been 27 damn years of clean living! I didn't even think of it when I filled out the paperwork. Now, I have to go to all those teachers I've been helping (3 of them) and answer the kids' questions about why I'm not going any longer. Really bums me out because I have two gifted kids from my neighborhood that the teacher turned over to me for a special project. *sigh* This country has become so wickedly punitive! Thanks for letting me vent. This is really messing with my head and making me feel awful about myself. Peace:

[Missy Vixen]

1. Oldlady, is it possible to contact the ACLU?

>because 27 years ago I stole a can of tuna and a cucumber from a grocery store, when I was selling plasma to eat, at a time between jobs.<

Would they be able to help with this at all? Maybe they're not the right venue for it, but the fact that a 27 year old non-violent arrest would eliminate you from volunteering in the school is outrageous. Would it be an option as well to contact the county prosecutor's office and ask to have your record expunged?

I am so sorry to read this.

Julie

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Probably not

The fact that she didn't disclose her "record" on the application is what nailed her. It's not the arrest, but the non disclosure.

Last year, my district had to disqualify 80% of the applicants for custodial positions because they had arrest records and hadn't admitted them on their application. A good friend of mine works in our human resources dept and she told me that if the offense is non-violent and doesn't involve kids, then they will pass the background check. But if they lie and omit the offense, their application is thrown out.

It sucks, I know.

[Nite Owl]

17. But if she took the first offender

course and thought it was no longer part of a record wouldn't it be considered a mistake not an ommission?

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I only know the way my district handles this kind of stuff

An omission is a lie. And that is worse than the offense sometimes.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

22. Why should you have to report an arrest if not convicted, since you're innocent of any wrong doing?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. She didn't say she wasn't convicted

And like I said, I think it is not disclosing it that got her into trouble, not the arrest itself.

[Dorian Gray]

42. Sadly, it was the non-disclosure...

though this is unfair, I don't know that there is any way that you can get around this.

And, to be honest, though your situation sounds like an exception, I'm quite comfortable with this type of law. A lot of applicants will avoid mention of their criminal background, and I don't think that I would want to someone working with my children that would do so on purpose. The OP's story is different, and my heart goes out to her, but I suspect that most who don't disclose their criminal past do so knowingly.

[Norquist Nemesis]

40. Excellent question!

Although goes both ways. Unfortunately, in today's society it seems the 1% Doctrine is becoming the standard...that if there is even a 1% chance of a risk. We used to have an innocent until proven guilty standard. I don't know if its O.J., the OK bombings, 9/11, or a combination of them all but we seem to have lost that. Wish I had an answer.

As far as the school thing, I can understand a strict no-tolerance policy. That's not to say I completely agree with it because, IMO, you have to look the cases and make a decision. Without that, it can get down to being prevented from making a living because someone was caught doing 45 mph in a 30 mph speed zone at the age of 17. We have to protect the kids, but we have to be reasonable and rational about it.

In the news here in Chicago, a woman was killed recently as she was taking inventory at a Burger King. It came out yesterday that the murder suspect was arrested several years ago for murdering a family of four, including a 4 y.o. boy that was also sexually assaulted. The courts threw out the charge on the basis that the police had no probably cause for his arrest and he was let go. Now there's a push to change hiring practice of fast food chains to include background checks on all employees, not just management. Had that happened, they would have seen this guy has a pretty long rap sheet (not sure if that included his arrest that was thrown out).

[lakeguy]

2. that sucks, i don't even know what to say except that

it sucks. you'd think they would be happy with the help but i suppose they have to follow strict rules since there are children involved. still sucks.

[rockymountaindem]

3. And people were asking me in the UCLA/taser threads why I'm afraid of being arrested...

This is why. Nobody forgives, nobody forgets. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I avoid civil disobedience actions in my peace movement work

for the same reason.

But once I retire, I am headed for jail. :)

[CrispyQ]

31. It is true that for many, you will always be remembered

for whatever low you reach in your life. In corporate matters, I think it is usually true that whatever level you come into a company at, you will be lucky to go more than a notch or two higher. I have always had to leave a company to advance.

To the OP, I am sorry for your experience. There is very little kindness in America. :hug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Oh damn

More and more of this crap is happening. I am a teacher and am hearing stories of teachers being fired for things they did many years ago, just like you.

Background checks. I guess we have Big Brother to thank.

I am so sorry this happened to you. It sounds like you would have been an asset to that school.

[Horse with no Name]

47. They are doing it to nurses too

I have been a nurse for almost 20 years.
Several months ago I had to submit to an FBI background check.
Big Brother is indeed watching.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. School districts are running background checks on veteran teachers

and I have heard more than a few stories about 20 and 30 year teachers being fired because they got a DUI or were caught shoplifting in college, 3 or 4 decades earlier. I heard not long ago that a teacher in my state was appealing her firing over an arrest for hitchhiking in the 60s. Hell, everyone hitchhiked in the 60s. :crazy:

Now tell me how hitchhiking in 1965 makes a person a danger to kids in 2006.

[Union Thug]

5. My heart goes out to you.

The sanctimonious assholes who run the show have never understood what it means to live on a low income, and they label those that have had to live in survival mode for whatever reason incurable, insatiable demons. Oh, they are all great christians who preach forgiveness, but not a goddamned one of them actually live by their words.

I need to stop, because I'm just going to rant from this point on...but know that there are people out here that feel for ya.

Hang in...

[Az]

6. We have become a massively competitive consumer culture

The upshot is many institutions have been recreated merciless due to parental fears of anything contaminating their children. Our society is sick. It is ailing and continues to get worse. Our concern is so focussed on being number one that we have jetisonned all the messy and inefficient things like compassion and connectivity. The message of be the best is constantly blasted through our TVs and we learn to burn others down in order to better ourselves from it.

See here is the thing. There are two societies in this nation. One is waning the other waxing. Human society is becoming increasingly isolated and disconnected from one another. Meanwhile Corporate society is booming and spreading. The two societies work on different criteria. Human society not only has to deal with matters of survival but we also have an instinct to be compassionate to one another. We feel each others pain and joy. Its basically how we are wired.

The thing is we managed to create a system where by we work together in these things called corporations. Corporations operate by a basic set of rules of survival. Not too unlike our own. But they do not have a built in motive to be empathetic or compassionate. In fact lack of compassion is an asset in the corporate world most often. And its not really the people behind the companies that are the asocial beasts (although those that are asocial will find an advantage the higher they go up the corporate ladder). Its the rules of the system in place. If you as a CEO don't do what you have to for the company to survive some other company will.

Now at a small scale this aspect of a corporation doesn't come into play. But once they hit global scales they become very much like a living entity of their own (not just legally). And they are asocial. They exist only to make profit. And it is in their interest to make sure that you and I consume consume consume. So they buy and run media distribution systems and in them they place exhortations telling us to consume more and more. They provide us with false images of how society should be claiming it to be insite into the human psyche when in fact it is insite into corporate psyche. They call these reality shows when in fact they are the furthest from reality.

Our nation is sick. Its going to take a lot of TLC to get it better. But being loving and compassionate is something that humans can do. They just have to see others doing it more and more often. Thats how we learn. Corporations have figured that out. We need to remember it.

[CrispyQ]

35. "we learn to burn others down in order to better ourselves from it."

This is what I find such a tragic statement about today's America -- we build ourselves up by tearing others down. It is such a pathetic way to be & those who are that way are ignorant to both the fact that they are that way & how harmful it is. They truly believe they are better. They have taken the low road & have no vision of the high road.

My husband & I lament the passing of the 'true' hero -- someone who inspires, someone who behaves at a higher standard, someone who builds him/herself up by improving themselves, not tearing down others, someone who has compassion for those less fortunate. Today's hero's are mostly men & women who make a lot of money & if their behavior is reprehensible, all the better. The negative publicity rarely hurts them & in the eyes of those like them, elevates them.

Very good response. I especially liked your description of two societies, one waning, the other waxing. :thumbsup:

[Sydnie]

9. What kind of paperwork did they require you to fill out to volunteer?

usually, criminal checks for schools are limited to crimes involving children. They make sure you're not a sex offender, but unless you have access to school funds I can't see any reason why you should not be allowed to volunteer. If you don't have any offenses that would show up on a CORI check, there is no reason to fear you having contact with the children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. But she didn't disclose the arrest

That's what got her.

[Az]

12. As Nixon learned

Its not the crime, its the coverup. Hopefully there is some means she can appeal this. I agree contact the ACLU.

[seabeyond]

10. oldlady you have hit the nail on the head. that is exactly the problem

we forgive no one for nothing. we no longer have patience. we no longer go beyond what is given to us. i have fought it all my life but the last decade we have become a very hard people. i wonder what it will be like for my boys. those that must follow all rules and demand all follow their silly fuckin rule without thinking, no thinking, forbid the thinking..... will walk us into a world none of us will recognize. it will be the police state. it will be the sheep that put their heads down and dare not to look in any authorities eyes...

i am sorry for this oldlady. we are just a corwardly people, what can i say....

a lot. i can say a whole bunch.

what a sad story to go to bed with.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

13. My heart goes out to you. Do not let the

bureaucratic bullshit change your desire to help these children. And, you are a great person for making a difference through your connection with the community! Be proud of yourself, and do not berate yourself for a mistake made long ago. Your care and concern will continue to benefit those with whom you interact. I wish you peace of mind, and a positive resolution to your current difficulty.

[TwentyFive]

14. Wrong. There is forgiveness in America

Over the last 27 years or so - * has snorted coke, gotten stoned & drunk, arrested for DWI...and has bankrupted several companies. Yet, the stupid voters over looked it and 'elected' him pResident.

You have nothing to hide my dear. It is the country that is messed up.

[lostnfound]

21. Forgiveness for wealthy criminals, perverted televangelists, Iran-contra culprits...

My foreign friend frequently rants that the US is weird for allowing "guys who have been caught" like Oliver North or Jim Bakker or Martha Stewart to continue on as public figures. In his country if you are caught you must hide your head in shame.

Heck, the one that bugs me is the VP (Jeff Dean?) at the voting machine company who was previously convicted for hi-tech felony fraud for using sophisticated computer programming techniques to steal money..now using those same techniques (to steal votes?).

Towards you my friend would only feel compassion for your previous situation, however, and anger at the inflexible application of such a stupid rule in your current situation, as would ANY human being.

[ninkasi]

15. How outrageous, oldlady

that such a trivial wrongdoing, which was minor, and was only necessary to help you survive, could outweigh all of the positive attributes you have. Your record over the last 27 years has been outstanding, and I've come to believe that our country no longer has a sense of proportion when weighing the morality of certain things.

Compared to the likes of Ken Lay, and the Enron thieves who cheated the public, and bankrupt their own employees, a can of tuna and a cucumber are absurd reasons to prevent you from doing the good work that nobody else is stepping forward to do. Yes, we seem to have become a vengeful, spiteful nation.

Not enough people care as much as you do about helping others. The real losers in this whole ridiculous affair will be the children, the very ones our society claims to care so much about. I hope that once the political scene in this country changes, we will be able to fumigate the pettiness, and bigotry which have become so entrenched during the long rule of the Republicans. I know that this is not directly connected to any political party, but they are the ones who insist on harsh sentences, and the ones who are not willing to admit that people can make mistakes, and still be worthwhile citizens.

I'm sorry, truly, because you have so much to offer your community. As I said, it's the children who will suffer. I feel strange calling you oldlady, because I was in my teens when you were born. I wish I could offer you more than my sympathy and understanding, but for what it's worth, the world needs more people like you.

[Nite Owl]

16. I'm so sorry to hear this oldlady

what you did decades ago was nothing, absolutely nothing in comparison to what the President of the United States, our country has done. His past should have kept him from this position to begin with if the same standards were applied. Stealing food when you are hungry is quite different from stealing from investors when you head a company or running down the US Treasury! Here you are giving your time to do something good and having this past offense that was so minor being held against you it's the total unfairness, the lack of standards for real people compared to those who have power that makes so little sense.

All good thoughts are with you, I hope this works out, that someone wakes up and sees this whole thing as a big mistake.

[Patiod]

43. If you had a DUI & coke arrest & lied, you could be President, tho.....

But $1.50 theft of food (which should have been wiped off your record), and you're persona non grata

[Porcupine]

19. No good deed goes unpunished. Itsa rule!! nt

.

[OneBlueSky]

20. no forgiveness, or just plain stupidity? . . . probably both, imo . . . n/t

.

[no_hypocrisy]

23. Am I wrong, or aren't you legally permitted omit reporting a past criminal

conviction if it has been expunged by the court?

[Dystopian]

24. K & R......Please....

do not 'feel awful' about yourself. You have a beautiful heart.. we need more like you....Allow yourself peace of mind...and best wishes with this....You have a calling...this will not stop you from giving to your community...to our community...our children deserve the best. Thank you for all you've done and will continue to do....


peace~

[IndyOp]

25. You have NOTHING to feel badly about - I am just so very sad reading this...

:hug: :cry: :hug: :cry: :hug: :cry: :hug: :cry:

It is the you and the children and the community who will all suffer. Stealing a can of tuna? This is a classic example of how we treat petty crimes soooooo seriously and will not touch the true crimes - the super-wealthy who send military teams off to foreign lands to terrorize people and control their markets and resources.

I encourage you to FIGHT this. Find a (pro-bono) lawyer to present your case to the district. Get letters of support from the teachers and your kids' parents saying how valuable you are to them and FIGHT.

It isn't just about you - it is about a background check system gone insane. They are excluding decent people from jobs in addition to excluding you from volunteer work.

There should be some balance, some sane way to review individual cases and consider not just the charge but also how long ago it occurred and what happened afterwards (including your belief that the charge was wiped from your record because you attended the first-offender program).

Stand up. Do *not* apologize for what you did. Know that you ARE of great value. Fight this on behalf of your kids and your community.

[LisaL]

26. Oh that's awful.

[Bassic]

27. North American popular culture cultivates revenge and

vindictiveness. So it's not surprising that a lot of our institutions reflect that. It sucks balls, though.

[many a good man]

28. Appeal or reapply

this time acknowleging the record. Talk to a human being. It's worth a shot. It sounds like the kids need you.

[JNelson6563]

29. It's an age old situation

How many stories in history are there about the hungry person who took a loaf of bread and got massive punishment? Uncountable.

Even in "enlightened" America, not all that long ago someone could be cheered for stringing up a black kid who looked at the pretty blonde girl but steal a loaf of bread and that's it! You're done for.

It's always been this way. Material goods are the most valuable thing in the world. Human dignity, eh not so much.

Julie

[blm]

32. Then shouldn't Bush have been disqualified to lead Dept. of Education?

Or be the leader of the Dept. of Justice?

Certainly seems unfair and especially UNJUST.

[porphyrian]

33. Teaching in our educational system will usually destroy your soul.

So much is wrong with it that even the most optimistic become depressed cynics in only a few years. This goes doubly for school administration, who deal with both these teachers and parents who are either angry or completely disinterested. So, it becomes more of a game of "cover your ass." I doubt that they personally care about your old charge, they just don't want it coming to bite them in the ass in the form of a major lawsuit, even though you are volunteering, not on their payroll.

[lectrobyte]

34. Nothing ever worth doing comes without some kind of fight. Appeal,

whatever, but don't give up.

[Morgana LaFey]

39. Yes. Think of it this way. NOT ONLY will you be

helping yourself, helping those kids, helping those teachers, but you may have a chance to change the system just a wee bit so someone else doesn't get hit like this.

Go fight it, please. You've got all the skills you need -- so muster up the energy and courage and go do it.

[WinkyDink]

36. I wish you peace. You have been terribly wronged, and have NOTHING

to feel bad about. You've given back seventy times seven.

[1932]

37. Ask them what the appeal process is for the order.

The constitutional right to due process applies to things like this.

They have to have some process that you can follow. Hopefully, the first step is to a subcommittee of the school board and you won't have to get a lawyer.

[Lusted4]

38. I guess God has been downsized out of a job when it comes to judgment. n/t

[w4rma]

41. I wonder if someone tried to get rid of you *because* you have been effective. (nt)

[thingfisher]

44. America is such a hypocritical nation.

Lying scum can run the country while committing terrible crimes.

[flying rabbit]

45. despite all of this

you can still find a way to make a difference, and I suspect that you will.

[MazeRat7]

46. Who is "downtown" and what happens if you "refuse" to stop ???

Do they hold control over your paying job or just the volunteer job?
Do they really want the "publicity" from firing you because you wanted to help the children ?
Can they prove the records are accurate ? After 27 years I doubt there is any paper trail only a computer entry.
Can they produce the paper work where you "claimed" to never have been arrested ?
Have you considered contacting an attorney ?

(there are rhetorical questions... no need to really answer)

While I'm not suggesting showing all these cards... my point is don't make it easy for them.

It should take more than a "veiled" threat from downtown to stop you from doing what is in your heart.

I doubt any of this really helps... but figured I would post anyway.

Good luck to you... and keep up the fight.

MZr7

EDIT: Oh BTW... 50 is not old... its middle-age.

[nam78_two]

48. Yes-people like you should be stopped!

:sarcasm:

Aaarghh!
Almost no one volunteers for anything in this country...lets stop the passionate and dedicated few that do.
Thank you for what you were doing :hug:..I have nothing more to say....This makes me so mad :grr:

[GoneOffShore]

50. You're a good person

AND LESS OF THE "OLD" crap.
I'm about to be 59 and I don't even think of myself as 'middle aged'. Fifty is a mere baby! (or babe)
;-) :hug: