Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Dennis Prager responds to my (and everybody else's) letter(s)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 03:54 PM
Original message
Dennis Prager responds to my (and everybody else's) letter(s)
I sent Dennis Prager an email this past weekend concerning his statements that Rep.-elect Keith Ellison should adhere to tradition and swear on the Bible, and not be allowed to swear on the Koran. Here's what I sent:

(From the United States' Constitution):

Article VI, Clause 3

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Brentspeak


Actually, I don't exactly support the Koran; I support the Bible. But if Ellison wants to swear on the Koran, I'm not going to argue against it. Anyway, this was Prager's response, emailed to all who wrote him concerning this topic:

Dear Prager reader,



Since you expressed interest in Dennis Prager’s last column on this issue, we thought you’d like to see his new column in which he answers his critics:



A response to my many critics - and a solution
By Dennis Prager
Tuesday, December 5, 2006

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2006/12/05/a_response_to_my_many_critics_-_and_a_solution



To understate the case, my last column, "America, Not Keith Ellison, Decides What Book a Congressman Takes His Oath on," seems to have touched a national nerve.

It has caused a national discussion -- actually, more hate-filled attacks on me than civil discussion -- and has been covered by just about all major American news media. To their credit, CNN and Fox News both gave me ample time (in television terms anyway) to express my views on two of each network's major shows: "Paula Zahn Now" and Headline News on CNN, and "Hannity & Colmes" and "Your World with Neil Cavuto" on Fox News. And many American newspapers have covered it.

In addition, there was widespread coverage on left-wing blogs, which, with no exception I could find, distorted what I said, charging my column and me with, for example, racism (see below), when race plays no role at all in this issue or in my column. For the record, because I deem this a significant statement about most of the Left, I found virtually no left-wing blog that was not filled with obscenity-laced descriptions of me. Aside from the immaturity and loathing of higher civilization that such public use of curse words reveal, the fury and hate render the leftist charge that it is the Right that is hate-filled one of the most obvious expressions of psychological projection I have seen in my lifetime.

Clearly, many Americans, including some conservatives and libertarians, have no problem with the idea that for the first time in American history, a person elected to Congress has rejected the Bible for another religious text when taking his oath of office (whether ceremonial or actual -- more on this below). This includes some thoughtful colleagues in conservative talk radio (intellectual life on conservative radio is far more diverse than intellectual life at most American universities).

So, for those who do cherish dialogue, including those on the Left who have trained themselves to avoid thought by merely choosing from a list of epithets -- "racist," "bigoted," "homophobic," "Islamophobic," "sexist," "xenophobic," "fascist" -- here are my responses to the most frequently offered objections to my piece:

Accusation: I am advocating something unconstitutional by demanding that the Bible be included in oaths of office. I am reminded that Mr. Ellison has a right to practice the religion of his choice and that there shall be no religious test for candidates for office in America.

Response: I never even hinted that there should be a religious test. It has never occurred to me that only Christians run for office in America. The idea is particularly laughable in my case since I am not now, nor ever have been, a Christian. I am a Jew (a non-denominational religious Jew, for the record), and I would vote for any Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Mormon, atheist, Jew, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Wiccan, Confucian, Taoist or combination thereof whose social values I share. Conversely, I would not vote for a fellow Jew whose social values I did not share. I want people of every faith and of no faith who affirm the values I affirm to enter political life.

My belief that the Bible should be present at any oath (or affirmation) of office has nothing whatsoever to do with the religion of the office holder. And it never has until Keith Ellison's decision to substitute a different text for the Bible. Many office holders who do not believe in the Bible at all or who reject some part have nevertheless used the Bible at their swearing-in (I noted this in my column). Even the vast majority of Jews elected to office have used a Bible containing both the Old and New Testaments, even though Jews do not regard the New Testament as part of their Bible. A tiny number of Jews have used only the Old Testament. As a religious Jew, I of course understand their decision, but I disagree with it.

I agree with the tens of thousands of office holders in American history who have honored the American tradition -- I am well aware it is not a law, and I do not want it to be -- of bringing a Bible to their ceremonial or actual swearing-in. Keith Ellison is ending that powerful tradition, and it is he who has called the public's attention to his doing so. He obviously thinks this is important. I think it is important. My critics think it isn't.

Why wouldn't Ellison bring a Bible along with the Koran? That he chose not to is the narcissism of multiculturalism that I referred to: The individual's culture trumps the national culture.

You don't have to be Christian to acknowledge that the Bible is the source of America's values. Virtually every founder of this country knew that and acknowledged it. The argument that founders such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were deists, even if accurate (it is greatly exaggerated), makes my point, not my opponents'. The founders who were not believing Christians venerated the Bible as the source of America's values just as much as practicing Christians did.

America derives its laws from its Constitution. It derives its values from the Bible. We don't get inalienable rights from the Constitution; we get them from God. Which is exactly what the signers of the Declaration of Independence wrote: We are endowed with inalienable rights by our Creator, not by government and not by any man-made document. And that Creator and those inalienable rights emanate from the Bible. Keith Ellison's freedom to openly believe and practice Islam and to run for elective office as a Muslim is a direct result of a society molded by the Bible and the people who believed in it, a fact he should be willing to honor as he is sworn in.

I cannot name any Western European country that does not have a document similar to the American Constitution and something akin to our Bill of Rights. It is, therefore, not the Constitution that has made America unique and a moral beacon to the world's downtrodden. What has made America unique is the combination of Enlightenment ideas with our underlying Judeo-Christian values. (I have described 24 of those values in 24 columns in 2005, all available on the Internet through www.pragerradio.com.)

It was understood from the beginning of the republic that liberty is derived from God, not from man alone. That is why the Liberty Bell has an inscription from the Bible (from the Torah in the Old Testament) on it, not an inscription from any secular Enlightenment (or ancient Greek) source.

Accusation: Very many critics note the fact that members of Congress are not sworn in individually with Bibles but all together in the House chamber and without the Bible. The use of the Bible is a ceremonial act that takes place in private before family, friends and the press. My critics cite this fact as if somehow it invalidates my larger point.

Response: First, it was Keith Ellison who raised the entire issue of taking an oath on a Koran rather than a Bible. He did not make his announcement in the hopes that it would be ignored but to make a statement. I was responding to that statement. Critics who are unhappy with it becoming an issue should direct their ire at Mr. Ellison.

Second, the very fact that it is a ceremony makes my point far more forcefully. Obviously, Mr. Ellison will have already been officially sworn in. Therefore, the use of the Koran has absolutely nothing to do with taking an oath on the book he holds sacred. It is used entirely to send a message to the American people. So all the arguments that he must be able to swear on the book he holds sacred are moot. He will have already been sworn in.

Ceremonies matter a lot. As I told the Associated Press, ceremonies are essential to the continuity of a civilization. Therefore, the first time in American history that a congressman has decided to jettison the Bible for another text should not go unnoticed -- or elicit yawns, as it has from conservative and libertarian critics.

Accusation: My column and/or I are racist, bigoted and Islamophobic.

Response: "Racist": It is impossible to fully respond to absurdity. How is race possibly involved in my wanting the Bible to be present at swearings-in of American politicians? I wrote in my column that I apply the same standard to Jews, Scientologists and everyone else. Those who make this charge merely cheapen the word racism and therefore weaken the fight against it.

"Islamophobic": I wrote not a word against Islam or the Koran and made it clear at the beginning of my column that nothing I write is specific to Islam or the Koran. All those who write that I "compared" the Koran to "Mein Kampf" are lying -- deliberately lying to defame me rather than respond to my arguments. I simply offered a slippery slope argument that if we let everyone choose their own text at swearings-in, what will happen one day should a racist decide to use "Mein Kampf"? A slippery slope argument is not an equivalence argument. The Left regularly argues that vouchers to support Catholic schools can one day be used to support religious extremists' schools. Are they comparing Catholicism to religious extremism? Of course not. And no one on the Right has ever stooped so low as to make such a charge. Moreover, I not only mentioned "Mein Kampf," I mentioned "Dianetics," Scientology's most revered work, the works of Voltaire (for secularists) and other works.

"Bigoted": Bigoted against whom? Against non-Christians? I am a non-Christian. Am I bigoted against myself as a Jew? I happen to be one of the most active individuals in American Jewish life and co-author of probably the most widely used English-language introduction to Judaism of the last 30 years.

In fact, it is as a Jew that I am so aware of the fragility of all civilizations, including ours. I am therefore aware of how uniquely good America has been for all its citizens, including and especially its Jews. This uniqueness does not stem from secularism alone, but from an extraordinary Judeo-Christian value system that has been our civic religion. Europe is secular and is a failing civilization; one that is also increasingly judenrein because of its anti-Semitism.

I am for no law to be passed to prevent Keith Ellison or anyone else from bringing any book he wants to his swearing-in, whether actual or ceremonial. But neither I nor tens of millions of other Americans will watch in silence as the Bible is replaced with another religious text for the first time since George Washington brought a Bible to his swearing-in. It is not I, but Keith Ellison, who has engaged in disuniting the country. He can still help reunite it by simply bringing both books to his ceremonial swearing-in. Had he originally announced that he would do that, I would have written a different column -- filled with praise of him. And there would be a lot less cursing and anger in America.

Dennis Prager is a syndicated columnist, author and host of the nationally syndicated radio show, The Dennis Prager Show.


It's funny that Prager keeps talking about "the Left...the Left...the Left" in this piece, because even the ADL, not exactly what you'd call a "left-wing" (Jewish) organization, condemned him:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/dec/03/adl_slams_dennis_pragers_racist_assault_on_keith_ellison





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. He's Jewish and he thinks it's wrong for Jews to swear an oath on the Torah alone
Well, if he's willing to ask his own people to betray their heritage, I'm not surprised he'd freak out over Ellison. I wonder what else he'd encourage everyone else to give away? I mean, what if a Jewish or Muslim dignitary is invited to a big party at the White House but they can't eat a main course of pork? Should they just turn dowh the invite to make "everyone else" comfortable?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. He Claims He's A "Non-denominational religious Jew"
Being Jewish I've heard of many denominations...I joke because my family comes from a "Conservative" background...while not as liberal as reform, it is more liberal than "traditionalist" and "orthodox". Almost every Jew I know lines themselves up with one of these four demoninations. The ones who proclaim to be "non-demoninational" are usually "code-word" for a Jews For Jesus or other non-traditional group. I've long suspected Prager and other Jews who work in that right wing slime machine...especially taking a check from Edward Anslinger and Salem Broadcasting, as having other agendas they hide with their "I'm a Jew" label.

I could only read about a third of that tripe until my brains began to hurt from all the distortions and whining. This falls into that meme that America is a "Christian" nation...and that all other religions must realize this and adjust accordingly. This is the "base" of the "moral superiority" as goons like Prager feel they are judges of what is right and wrong or fair or not fair in this country. Note how he won't address his critics but creates his own strawmen that he can easily knock down.

25 years of right wing codespeak can deliver a racist or xenophobic message without directly attacking, but the message sure gets through just the same. When you call this goon, like others, on those words, they immediately say they're "misunderstood". He avoids the whole premise that there is no religious basis for a swearing in...and this strawman about Ellison using the Koran is another masked attack on his, his faith, his skin color and, of course, his political affiliation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karmageddon Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Keep digging Dennis. Every time he opens his mouth, he further proves our point. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I agree. He made himself look even more ignorant with this article.
Edited on Tue Dec-05-06 04:09 PM by brentspeak
"The argument that founders such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were deists, even if accurate (it is greatly exaggerated), makes my point, not my opponents'. The founders who were not believing Christians venerated the Bible as the source of America's values just as much as practicing Christians did."

It is not "greatly exaggerated" that Franklin and Jefferson were deists: Franklin was practically a card-carrying deist; and Jefferson, while not a deist in the strictest sense, was about as deliberately heretical and skeptical a Judeo-Christian as you could ever get -- he denied the divinity of Christ, and gladly cut-and-pasted bits and pieces of the New Testament to create his own version of that book.

So how exactly did Thomas Jefferson "venerate the Bible" if he took a pair of scissors to it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yup, he's the man with integritah!
So sayeth the repukes!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. "The bible is the source of American Values"
No dennis its not. Let me share some profanity laced objections. You are a fucking idiot dennis who wants to believe rather than know, a typical christian trait even though you are not christian.

Please read my tag line:

I DID NOT SPEND 24 YEARS IN UNIFORM SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING THE BIBLE. The bible has nothing to do with our freedoms. We are the land of the free, not the land of the bible. Pretty fucking simple neighbor. And by the actions of many christians in this country they apparently don't practice what they read.

I also don't stone to death people who work on the sabbath.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Thank you! Once again, you sum it up very well
then again, people like Prager will refuse to read/listen to anything which doesn't fit their own narrow belief system.

And not only have the founders said in no uncertain terms that America is NOT officially a Christian nation, the claim that Mein Kampf is the "Nazi Bible" is beyond stupid. The Nazis - even if some of the upper party members were not believers - were CHRISTIANS.



I don't see why this is such a big deal to Prager, or how Ellison is destroying American culture yet people like Prager and Dubya aren't....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm just a summing up buckeroo
Nothing gets me fired up more then a religious zealot fucking with my constitution. Especially a zealot who basks and benefits in the freedoms provided by the thousands and thousands who have died for that constitution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Bosshog -
Well done, Sir.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Thank you Ma'm
The constitution and religion and the separation of church and state stuff just gets me all fired up.

Interesting to see you are from Starkvegas. A local sports columnist in Gulfport always refers to Starkville, MS (home of MS State University) as Starkvegas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Actually I'm in Nashvegas.
That is, Music City, USA. If you wanna call that crap "music". :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Am I the only person who thinks that the ONLY text one should
place one's hand on when being sworn into government office is tha US CONSTITUTION???

Leave all religious texts and religion out of it. Period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Nope. I totally agree with you.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. "I never even hinted that there should be a religious test."
Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedStateShame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Dis-uniting? Is that a word?
Moreover, if he's against dis-uniting the country, and the majority of the country voted for Democratic representation from the likes of Rep. Ellison, then speaking out against Ellison would mean he's, uh, dis-uniting?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Just a lot of weasel words.
He got called on being a theofascist slimeball and he can't take it back now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hey, DENNIS
I'm a Buddhist. Having me swear anything on a BIBLE would be equivalent to having me swear on a toaster. That book may be a powerful symbol to you, but to me it's just a thing like any other.

THAT is what you and your fellow militant "our way or the highway" don't quite have the capacity to understand, that your talisman doesn't mean squat to the rest of us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L A Woman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Narcissism of multiculturalism????
The individual's culture trumps the national culture?

Gee, that's funny. I thought that was the whole point of America. You know, "melting pot" and all that stuff...

Idiot.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lusted4 Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. I didn't read what Prager had to say but at first glance I would think
Edited on Tue Dec-05-06 05:04 PM by Lusted4
If I were wanting someone to take an oath on a book, IT WOULD BE THE BOOK HE HOLDS MOST DEAR NOT ME.
Wouldn't it be like pledging allegiance to some other flag.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. attack, attack, and attack, and then claim to be a victim. Typical of RW media hosts
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thomas Jefferson was NOT A CHRISTIAN. He was a DEIST.
There's a world of difference between the Bible God and the deistic conception of God. He authored the Declaration of Independence knowing full well what he meant when he wrote "Creator." He was most definitely not invoking the Bible God but something else entirely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Plus, he edited his own bible: The Jefferson Bible.
He took all the miracles and dogma out of it, and just left the teachings of Jesus Christ. I wonder how Prager would feel about someone using that Bible instead of another?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-05-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. This is disgusting
Somehow treating the Bible as a symbol of a country's 'culture' rather than a religious text strikes me as both anti-democratic AND (to religious people) blasphemous.

And he's wrong here:

'I cannot name any Western European country that does not have a document similar to the American Constitution and something akin to our Bill of Rights.'


The UK doesn't. We had the Magna Carta, but that is far more limited in scope and less binding. For the rest, it's all case-law. I wish we DID have a written constitution.

I haven't gone through the political/legal systems of other Europaean countries; but believe that many of them don't have an equivalent either; and those that do, have often modelled it on the American version. This written constitution and Bill of Rights are perhaps what I most admire about the American system. Such a pity that your president is systematically shredding them!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
21. The man's clueless - and I think he's doing this for the publicity now
Plenty of right wing commentators have told him he's wrong, too (I don't spend my time searching all of them, and I guess no-one here does, but I don't think I've seen an example of anyone supporting him). He's now in the situation where he can admit he was being a dickhead, or he can stubbornly stick to his guns, and become the poster boy for the right wing bigots. Since Coulter seems to have been pretty quiet since the election (worried about being charged with voting in the wrong place?), he might have a chance.

I sense a book with 'liberal' in the subtitle in his near future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
22. if you are NOT christian
then swearing on the Bible has no meaning, might as well be sworn in with your hand on a copy of "My Pet Goat" - the same goes for using any holy book to which you do not subscribe.

The purpose of swearing on a holy book is to seal your promise with your version of God.

Granted many believe it's all the same God regardless of religion - however there are different religions and different interpretations of God, and there are just as many different versions of religious text even within a given religion.

So I ask Prager - which version of the Bible should be used? There are multitude versions of the 'christian" bible out there from Baptist to Catholic to Lutheran to Methodist etc.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
26. Sounds like he's desperate to keep himself in the news cycle....
A sad, pathetic, Rush- or Michael Savage-wannabe, a C-list asshole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-06-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sounds like every dumbfuck I've heard try to explain away an embarassment reality about themselves;
Spiral downward into an incomprehensible web of excuses and justifications.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC