Mary Cheney - can you stand one more thread? a different point of view

[radfringe]

So Mary and her partner are having a baby. big deal.

yeah, I know it tickles many to the bone that the daughter of the slimeball of the century is a lesbian and is now having a baby. The irony is overwhelming.

I know that the freepers are either up in arms or wallowing in the muck trying to find a way between being upset and supportive.

Two things have prompted me to post this.

First - the postings by DUers. Would the level and tone of the postings be the same if it was Dem's daughter? i think not, in fact - I think the postings would be supportive and/or outrage over freeper's slamming postings.
Does it make a big difference who the sperm donor is?
Come on people, we're better than that.

Secondly - has it occurred to anyone that Mary and her partner having a baby is a good thing in terms of the cultural and political stage? it does one of two things - it drives a wedge between the neo-cons and conservatives and forces discussion and perhaps a further splintering

It also forces some conservatives to try and be supportive of Mary and her partner out of respect they may have for Dick/GOP. In trying to find some 'supportive ground', some may end up changing their minds or at the least modifying their position to one of tolerance. If they are willing to tolerate Mary/partner having a baby, it's one step closer to tolerating other gay couples in doing the same.

I wish Mary and her partner well, and I hope the baby is healthy.

[mondo joe]

1. Why SHOULD it be the same if it was a Dem's daughter? The dems aren't making

political hay out of civil rights for gays and their families.

[radfringe]

6. we're talking attitudes

do repubs just slam "liberal" gays and lesbians? no they target all, regardless of political affiliation.

as the Democratic underground or as a liberal or whatever label - should we be slamming Mary Cheney just because of her political ties? If she were Kerry's daughter or Gore's daughter would we be making comments about who's the daddy?

and just because the repubs slam gays/lesbians - does it make ok for us to do the same when it's a repub's daughter or son at the center of news?

There's more that goes on in a family than what hits the papers.

I'm a lesbian, my brother is gay and my sister is straight. When we first came out to our parents, they were upset. But over a remarkably short period of time they accepted us as we were because we were their kids. It didn't take long after that before they also accepted our partners and friends.

It also strengthened their friendships with other friends of theirs who also had gay kids and had kept it hidden. This is something that wouldn't have happened if my parents were not confronted and forced to deal with it.

[mondo joe]

10. Of course we should slam her political ties.

And we may reap some benefit from this in the end, which would be great.

But she's supported anti gay candidates, while resting assured that because of her money and connections SHE's safe. So slam away.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. because if 'we' are going to use

the bar others set as 'our' moral/personal compass, then what are we other than the yang to their yin?

How about US walking our talk? How about civil rights for ALL humans? Gays/straight, black/white/red/yellow, old/young, rich/poor, REPUBLICANS, and Dems alike?

I think the OP speaks great truth, with humbling wisdom.

[mondo joe]

11. But of course Mary deserves equal rights. Who here said she didn't?

Doesn't mean her vile family of origin can't be mocked.

[radfringe]

15. I agree

I realize the irony makes many of us smile and smirk..

however, if all are equal, then our attitude towards mary's baby should be no different regardless mary's sexual orientation.

It reminds me of an incident that occurred many many years ago.

There were these joke cards, sort of like business cards, floating around the town. They said "This card has been specially treated and will cause your tits to fall off"

I had one in my wallet, thought it was funny. One day I was in a women's bookstore. The cashier and another customer where chuckling over something, they showed me this card which said "This card has been specially treated and will cause your prick to fall off"

I chuckled, pulled out my card and showed it to them.

OMG! they flamed all over me. My card was advocating "VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN".

I replied, what's the difference, if my card is violence against women, then your card is violence against men. so why does that make my card bad and your card ok? If it's advocating violence, and violence is bad, what's the difference if it's against men or women?

they told me I "didn't get it"

[mondo joe]

17. As a gay parent, my feelings about Mary Cheney are not about her orientation

but about politics and hypocrisy.

She has supported the very people who make war on my family, while enjoying protection of her status and money.

So FUCK HER.

[radfringe]

20. then she will reap as she sows

to a certain extent she'll be faced with the same problems and obstacles as other gay/lesbian parents. Hopefully when it's her kid being bullied on the school yard it will change her attitude.

If it does, then by virture of her standing in society, she may end up doing more good for the gay/lesbian community in the future. It will force her to either stand up and speak out for her own rights, or force her to stay hidden in a closet. It's a stand up or shut up situation. Either way, I think it will be good for us in the long run.

In the meantime, I hope it's twins.

[theHandpuppet]

24. Of course she won't face the same problems as other gay parents

My, you ARE naive. You think she'll be worried about job benefits or a place to live? Do you think her kid will go to a public school? Do you think Mary Cheney has, any day in her life, worried about the kinds of problems Daddy's money couldn't make go away? Please.

Nothing Mary Cheney has ever done will make up for the pain and suffering to which she has actively contributed and from which she has benefitted. FUCK HER and the hypocritical horse she rode in on.

And BTW, as an advocate of zero population growth, I hope it's NOT twins unless one of the babies is adopted.

[radfringe]

32. then look at it this way

She's also become a rallying figure for every gay/lesbian parent out there.

If mary cheney and her partner can be recognized as equal parents, why can't the rest of us?

and before someone hits me with the "are you a parent?" question.

My late partner had 3 kids. One was grown and on her own. The other two lived with us. Fortunately, the schools gave a wink and a nod if I had to pick the kids up, and the doctors likewise looked the other way when it came to medical treatment.

We did run into some problems with me making certain decisions in lieu of my partner being present - and we found a work around. Was it fair? No. was it right? No.

My late partner was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. We went through 4 years of surgury and chemo. I had to walk around with health proxies in my bag so I could make medical decisions should my late partner be unable. If we were a legally recognized couple would I have had to do that? no. was it fair? no. was it right? no.

that mary will enjoy a certain level of protection is given. But there will be times when that cloak won't protect her and she will be forced to deal with the situation.

[mondo joe]

34. And I'm happy to exploit that as well.

Just as I'm happy to exploit this now.

[radfringe]

42. here's an additional thought

when someone wails away about gay marriage on the basis that children should be raised in a home with a mother and father... just say two words Mary Cheney, and ask them if they think the child should be taken away from Mary and her partner

either they will sputter or they will look you in the eye and say yes. If they say yes, pull a letter out of your pocket which says:

Dear Mr. President/Vice-President/Governor (or any other high ranking elected official),

I believe marriage between a man and a woman is the only type of proper home in which to raise children. For the sake of the children, I urge you to support legislation which will define a family as one man - one woman with children.

Furthermore, I urge legal action that would remove all children currently residing in homes and being raised by homosexuals and place them in proper heterosexual homes. The immediate removal of Mary Cheney's child should be the first order of business in order to set a good example that no one is above the law.

Signed,

_______

Have them sign it and offer to mail it for them - registered receipt requested

[theHandpuppet]

46. Ditto!!

No crying towels from me for poor widdle Mary. :puke:

[mondo joe]

47. I don't know if some people just don't understand the nature of

the war they have waged on gays, or if they just don't know how to fight.

I just know they have attacked me and mine, and I will take any avenue that presents itself to turn the tide.

[radfringe]

48. Rule 2

I have a list of rules that I apply at work and life in general.

The rules:

1. Logic does not apply

2. When the right person gets pissed, something will be done

3. If you don't own the business, you're expendable

4. You do all the shopping, wrapping, decorating and the fat guy in the red suit gets the credit

5. If you don't know where you are going, you won't know where you are when you get there

------

in this particular case - Rule 2 applies.

as far as the issue of gay/lesbian rights is concerned there is a need for the "right person" to be found. This person may be in the form of a leader who is able to rally the troops, or it may be in the form of a person who's position cause the troops to rally themselves.

I don't know how old you are, but I was just coming out when Anita Bryant was waging her crusade in Dade County Florida. There was no gay/lesbian leader out there that stood out and led the troops, but there was Anita Bryant who's position regarding gays/lesbians teaching in schools that did rally the troops against her.

Sadly, once that particular issue faded from the public eye, so did the gay/lesbian movement. The remnents are still around, most predominantly as Pride marches, but as a national movement - it's gone

We may want to consider using Dean's 50-state stragedy to promote gay/lesbian rights as opposed to the patchwork hit and miss activist work going on now.

MC could be this decades Anita Bryant... just a thought

[mondo joe]

27. She's like GW Bush duuring Viet Nam. The horrors her family creates and

she supports will never touch her.

[theHandpuppet]

22. THANK YOU!

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. OH.... Mondo Joe- !!

while I completely understand the frustration, anger, and hurt you feel seeing someone who SHOULD 'know better' or who is talking hate, while expecting to be able to 'walk in freedom, and love'- please don't let her, or people who are blinded by their own ego and short-sightedness convert you, to their way of living/thinking.

It is absolutely WRONG for her to say what she has, use her fathers 'connections' to prostitute herself into working in this administration- and being a poster-child/political pawn in order to ultimately further her own agenda, and fatten her own pockets- if you allow this to dictate how you will 'feel/act' in response, then she has won - and we have lost yet another, to the power of selfish intolerance and hate.

She has to live with her actions and words. She has to face herself in the morning- and sleep in her body at night. Denial is no protection in the long run.

I pity her-

Her status and money may make everyday life easier in the short run- but at what true cost?

peace,
blu

[mondo joe]

38. No one converted me to their way of thinking. I fully support

equal rights for Mary Cheney.

How do you think I was converted?

[Bluerthanblue]

50. I don't want

to argue with you MJ-

I'm glad you support equal rights for Mary- so do I- I support equal rights for everyone-
And I believe everyone should be treated with at least minimal respect- even when they act in disrespectful ways-

I'm going to agree to disagree here-

I wish you nothing but good-

peace,
blu

[Bluerthanblue]

21. if only

we truly treated each other as if 'we' were 'them' regardless of who 'them' really is- this would be an entirely different world-

Impossible dream? hopeless romantic? bleeding heart liberalism? Probably-

But, it has to start somewhere-
And the negative has to stop somewhere-

like with each one of us individually-

peace- to all. thanks for the illustration

;)

blu

[xultar]

2. I feel exactly the same way. I know MC is a bitch but I'm happy that she and

her partner are having a child together. I think it will be a good thing for the GBLT community to have this in the news. Pictures of them with their child will bring a positive light to same gender parent families.

I wish them a successful pregnancy and a happy healthy baby.

[NMDemDist2]

3. i wish the best for the baby also

but I am having a moment of schadenfreude thinking of exploding freeper heads across the county, not that Ms Cheny-Poe are having misfortune mind you

but i'm glad for the couple and hope it will start some reasonable dialogue about what "family" really means

[TiredTexan]

4. The issue is one of hypocrisy.........

Mary Cheney went out of her way to slam John Kerry for respectfully mentioning that she was lesbian during the debates. She is a hateful, spiteful woman who glories in her position of power as the vice-president's daughter, while selling out other gays by helping those who oppress them.

I feel sorry for the baby.

[radfringe]

8. She does enjoy a cloak of protection

by virture of being the daughter to a VP. and yeah, it's hypocritical.

but think of this - what does the future hold for the child of two women? If mary and her partner split up - who gets custody? The rightwing believes a gay/lesbian is not fit to be a parent to begin with, but a single lesbian is even worse. I'm not sure which state they will be living in, but the majority of states do not allow gays/lesbians to adopt, even if it's the kid of their own partner. So what legal standing will mary or her partner have as a parent? If one doesn't have legal standing as a parent, how can one give permission for emergency medical treatment? Sign a permission slip for a field trip? make other decisions that are only recognized if one is a LEGAL PARENT?

How will they handle the teasing and razing the kid will get when the kid's friends find out about two mommys.

Being gay/lesbian and having kids brings up a whole new set of obstacles in legal and cultural terms.

For all the protection mary enjoys as the daughter of a VP - she's going to find there are more obstacles to overcome than just a politician mentioning her sexuality. It may even change her mind when she finds she has to fight for the same rights given freely to straight parents when it comes to kids

[Norquist Nemesis]

12. They live in Virginia

They moved there to be closer to mom and dad, supposedly. The legal issues for her partner are "unclear".

"In November, Virginia voters passed a state constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and civil unions; state law is unclear on whether Poe could have full legal rights as a parent of Cheney's child. The circumstances of the pregnancy will remain private, said the source close to the couple. This is the first child for both."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/05/AR2006120501712.html

[Virginia Dare]

33. I think the legal issues for her partner are pretty clear...

she has no legal rights as far as their child or their property go whatsoever.

I read about a case right after 9/11, this was way before the constitutional amendment passed of course, where a woman was killed at the Pentagon. Her partner of 25 years, who had stayed home to take care of the home for most of that time had nothing. No insurance, no home, no property, nada. Her dead partner's family took it all from her.

[Bluerthanblue]

16. I agree, it is hypocrisy- and it is

hypocritical for us as 'Dems' or as people who claim to have a perspective that is one of inclusion, tolerance, and fairness for all to use MC's behaviour as a reason for us to act like her, while justifing it by saying "yeah but SHE did this, so we can do it too".... I've been a mother for 23yrs... and I can't tell you how many times I've said to my kids:

"if someone does something to you that you don't like- or that you think is wrong, what makes it 'right' when you do it back to them?"

We're supposed to learn, grow, and be examples of 'a better way'. To ACT with thought and responsibility- not to simply 're-act' in kind. It is the only way to really 'change' anything- I believe.

but maybe I'm just a dreamer-

[mondo joe]

19. Frankly, that is bullshit. I believe in calling out political hypocrisy.

Has nothing to do with what anyone else does - that is MY value.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. pointing out hyprocrisy is

one thing-

Denouncing them as human beings for their 'politics' is another-
And if you want to be the change you wish to see in the world, shouldn't it start with you?
Or are you going to keep 're-acting' and waiting for 'other people' to get their act in concert with yours, before you accept or embrace them? Before YOU act the way you claim others should?

We've been doing that since the begining of time- it hasn't worked very well- it is only when people pause to choose the best response- which often requires: self control, and personal sacrifice that change happens-

You may see it as 'bullshit'-

I hope someday you come to see it as wisdom-

peace,
blu

[mondo joe]

37. Did I "denounce her as a human being"? I don't even know what

that's supposed to mean.

And I think I am acting the way I claim others should. I believe in accountability and truth and equality before the law.

For Mary Cheney and for myself.

[Bluerthanblue]

49. I don't express my thoughts very well- "fuck her"...

and other things that have been said about her, rude comments the about of the "biological father" of the child she and her spouse are awaiting, (not said specifically by you) and negative comments about what their future 'should' bring - just seems like the kinds of things I cannot encourage in anyone- regardless of their political leanings.

I believe she has not acted in ways that encourage people to live honest, life -affirming and accepting ways- but that is her issue. Were I speaking to her, I'd tell her exactly that- the negative, petty, ..... cruel posts about the news that she and another person who is completely unknown to many- are expecting a child - simply speaks to me of how 'we' are little more than a mirror image of 'them'- and I hope for better- for all of us-

I'm not going to quibble with you Mondo Joe-

I wish you and all those you love- peace- contentment- and good-

blu

[AlCzervik]

5. i wish them well and ps Mary, don't let the baby spend too much time

with your parents, no reason to break a perfectly good baby.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. My posts on this issue have not been critical of Mary and her

partner. Actually, I wish them the best and hope they have a healthy baby and fully support their decision to have a child.

My comments have been more about the RW hypocrisy than anything else. I just find the circumstances rather ironic.

[KoKo]

13. Thanks Radfringe....the posts are too much and ott. Good Points you make.

So much other important stuff to discuss than Mary Cheney's baby anyway.

I wish them both well and her partner.

[NashVegas]

14. I Think I Feel About Mary the Way Some Soldiers Feel About Anti-War Protesters

Many times, I've had a vet tell me (paraphrasing), "I fought over there so you could protest here."

Meaning, they fight to keep our country strong enough to keep the laws that guarantee our freedoms. Though they may disagree with us, they are proud to think that their work enables our free speech rights, and they do value those rights.

In a variety of ways, many of us here have fought to create an atmosphere in the US where gay people can come out and take a place in the societal "norm's" web.

Mary is receiving the benefits of our fight. And I'd love to drub her for sitting on her ass and helping people who don't care about these human rights get elected, but I don't have it in me. It's not something we've done only for "special" people.

[cwydro]

18. Nice thoughtful post Rad.

:thumbsup:

[Chimichurri]

23. It could be a good thing however Mary will continue her ambitions as

a republican hypocrite. That means she gets to continue encouraging the republican ideology without having to actually live any of it's outcome. She's got the money and the influence to bypass the legislation her and her ilk espouse. It's like banning abortions for everyone yet, for those who have money, having ways around the ban.

What she is doing is a big kick in the stomach to every gay/lesbian couple struggling for equality and she is rightfully being called out on it. She should be ashamed of herself. Not for wanting a family with her partner but for elevating the party that everyday tries to destroy that dream for all other same sex couples.

[radfringe]

25. yes it's waving a big flag of hypocrisy

it's blatant hypocrisy, out there for everyone to see. There is no spin that can be put on this to make it more palatable to the neo-cons, the conservatives, the family-valuers or Republicans.

they are all forced to drink the kool-aid, continue with their march of intolerance and include mary in their condemnations or accept it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. if her dad wasnt busy wrecking our lives...i would wish her well.

[mondo joe]

29. Or if she hadn't supported him in doing so.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. yes, i think that is even more important. she campaigned for the asshole.

[Midlodemocrat]

41. And was outraged at John Kerry.

She is a disgusting hypocritical asshole.

[Dorian Gray]

35. I agree with radfringe....

I also think that this is important, and I am uncomfortable with the vitriol being passed on to her. I understand it, but I am uncomfortable with it. I also with her and her partner the best, and I think that this is somewhat important for us, as it exposes the hypocrisy in a different light.

[solara]

36. I wish Mary's baby well

But, I think the baby's grandfather is dangerous to this country. I don't trust him, I don't like him or anything about him. I feel the same way about the baby's mother. Just because she is pregnant doesnt change anything she has done. She has spewed her father's poison while enabling and supporting his dispicable actions.

So yeah, I wish Mary's baby health and safety, like I wish for ALL the babies in this world who suffer the terror of war and the unimaginable pain of constant hunger and the horror of terrible injury and the sad waste of death daily because of Grandaddy's actions.

[npincus]

39. I haven't read the DU posts on this

but more power to a high-profile lesbian family!

My 4-year old queried me at a playdate's house, "Where is "x"'s Daddy?", and I explained to her that X has 2 mommies and they are a family. I hope for a future where all different kinds of families are commonplace and mainstreamed.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. Mary Cheney makes me sick

as does her father and mother.
John Kerry was supposedly a "bad man" for citing her in his 3rd debate with Bush as an example of a lesbian who was 'just being who she is'. This despite her public role as a liaison to the gay community when Coors was trying to get gay bars to sell their beer, despite their ultra-conservative past.
Fuck her. I hope her baby is born happy and healthy and grows up to realize what a jerk her mom is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. seconded.

[mondo joe]

I hope her baby is a biter. NT

[Beausoir]

45. She sickens me. And about the LAST thing we need is more Cheney genes

dumped into the pool.

What a fucking hypocrite.

[sandnsea]

44. Secondly - she will soon be in the UL

otherwise known as the infamous 'undisclosed location', never to be seen or heard from again. Don't kid yourself, this baby isn't going to do a thing to enlighten conservatives or drive a wedge anywhere. The Republican Party will not let that happen. Mary Cheney, herself, would have to decide to make it a public policy issue, and I don't see that happening either.

Which takes us back to #1 and why it's not the same as a Democrat making that choice. It's just another example of the right wing shoving 'rules' down our throats, and not living by the same rules themselves.

Having said that, I do wish her and her partner well and think engaging in ridiculing jokes is juvenile. But that's just DU, so I just hide thread when I see that crap.