Oregon (and other NW) people: what is it that makes the roads there dangerous in winter?

[brentspeak]

I'm trying to picture what the area where the Kims were trapped looks like. (I'm from Jersey, where busy roads and highways are the norm).

[MissB]

1. IIRC, it is a forest service road in the mountains.

So in parts it could easily be just gravel. Even in the parts that would be paved, there wouldn't necessarily be lines painted on the road. Plus, the forest service doesn't tend to the vast majority of their roads in the wintertime. Some of them are even closed down with gates across.

These aren't really highways maintained by the highway department.

edited to add: in fact, if you google up an image of "forest service road" you'll see what a typical one is like. We do lots of traveling off the beaten path around our state - camping, hiking and such- and have been on tons of forest service roads. They're nice in the summer, but not so nice at other times.


We've been on some roads on from the coast to other cities before, using the "backroads". One in particular that I hate with a passion is the one from Charleston (on the coast near Coos Bay) to Bandon. In good weather, I hate that road. And it is paved all the way. Still, it is narrow and winding and you really hope that anyone heading from the other direction is actually paying close attention because there really isn't room to run off the road.

[MidnightRyder]

31. Seven Devils is fun!

When we were crazy kids we used to get a thrill driving the old 7 devils in the other Bay Area. Part of the problem with Oregon roads is many are gravel and or unmarked plus the only landmarks are trees. We are also in a tertiary zone with many slides and washes because the tectonic plates move so frequent. Finally nature is reclaiming what's rightfully hers as hunting is not so popular and animals are getting used to people. Lost a pet cat to a bobcat this fall and have to keep everything under cover because theres a bear with cubs plus a couple racoons in the area.

[MissB]

42. That is the one!

Welcome to DU, btw!

[MidnightRyder]

36. Mapleton is crazy

I have driven past Mapleton over the mountain and back down near Depoe Bay. The road turns to gravel and the sites are breathtaking but I learned to keep my eye out for logtrucks. Another night out of the blue my g/f and I had a wild hair and threw the 2 kids into the van and headed through powers up over the hill towards grants pass. Pulled over often for a smoke break finally just parked it cause we didn't know where we were and followed a loaded log truck down the montain next morning. I think its great this place is still wild and getting wilder!

[133724]

73. I took FS Road #24 a few year ago

down the EAST side of Mt. Rainier to the Columbia River. It was in the late spring. The road was a one lane gravel road with paving & turnouts in places. Numerous sections of the road were washed out and we had to drive on drive on roads that were still being rebuilt.

Also there is a difference between western Washington snow and eastern Washington snow. On the east side of the state it gets cold and stays cold for several weeks at a time. On the western side of the state it snows, gets warm, freezes, gets warm & freezes again.

During last weeks snow storm in north Seattle we got about 5" of the white stuff during the afternoon of the 27th. At 6:00 I got a phone call from my wife saying that the bus she was on had jackknifed about 2 miles from where we lived. I went to pick her up in my 4WD pickup. I got out of the house, and turned on to one of the minor arteries and it was pure Ice. You could see the oncoming lights reflecting from the road.



Look at the lights reflecting on the ice in the picture....

[brentspeak]

76. You need those dirt-bike metal-spiked tires to drive in those conditions.

[skooooo]

2. Well, a number of things...

in the Winter - snow, ice, black ice, frozen fog, avalanches....

[donheld]

77. What is frozen fog?

:shrug:

[Blue_In_AK]

85. It's probably the same thing we call "ice fog" in Alaska

It's just fog that occurs when it's below freezing. It coats the trees (which is pretty) but also coats the roads, which is dangerous as hell.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I've driven through the same mountains...

same time of year when a big storm ran through. We didn't have deep snow, just rain mixed with snow. There are a lot of twisting, turning roads. No shoulders. No street lights. The road paint isn't very reflective, particularly during heavy rain.

There was a famous case a couple of years ago where they pulled a car out of a roadside lake. The thing was something like 80 years old and belonged to a couple that had gone missing on the coast all that time ago.

The road the Kims turned down wasn't even a proper road. It would have been very narrow, pitted, and not even paved in some sections, no place to turn around for miles. When they went missing it would have been snowing very heavily.

[brentspeak]

22. What are those mountains?

Where I live, we have the Ramapo mountains, which are part of the Appalachian Mountains.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Coast range.

Pretty low actually. Most passes don't summit over a 1000 feet. They sure get a lot of precipitation though.

[pdxmom]

4. Not a lot of busy roads and highways. Very rough terrain and lots

of side and logging roads. Not really maintained, as far as snow removal and such. Don't ever set out over the mountains without proper equipment, including chains and such.

Even our main highways and byways suffer when the bad weather hits. The interstate over on the Columbia Gorge was shut down for a while last week, due to the freezing conditions. No way to keep it open. The roads here take a beating from the constant weather and erosion.

[brentspeak]

6. I never realized until the past couple of days just how rural much of Oregon is

Or how cold and wintry it gets there. I had a completely different conception of the state.

[MissB]

10. But in other parts of the state, it is very mild and not at all wintry.

About every five years or so we get a decent snow in Portland. "Decent" being 3 to 6 inches. Gawd, the city shuts down for days. Other years we don't get anything at all, or some that looks pretty but doesn't stick. Rain is more the norm.

[pdxmom]

15. Out here in Aloha, I think we get it a little worse than in the city itself.

And I've never seen a snow plow. You have to wait til it melts. Of course, if we get one good snowfall a year, that's excitement.

[MissB]

18. I've cross-country skied in Portland before.

Up Mt. Tabor. Plenty of snow that year. I'm not sure what year it was - maybe 91? 92?

The city does tend to be a bit warmer. I'm actually in the hills west of Portland, so when it snows, we're stuck. And cold.

[Arugula Latte]

43. I used to live on Mt. Tabor. We got a big snowfall in early '98, I believe.

I remember because my son was a baby and that was his first big snowfall. Also, my parents were trying to get to the airport, so that was fun ...

[Radio_Lady]

46. For those who don't live in Oregon, here's a precipitation map.

I believe we have seven separate, different weather zones in this one state -- from permafrost tundra (glaciers) on the mountain-tops to temperate rain forest to high desert to absolute desert. You can see the green and purple areas which are mountainous -- Coast Range towards the Pacific Ocean, and then the Cascade Range which is a continuation of the Canadian chain and flows into Mt. Baker, Mt. Rainier, Mt. Adams in Washington state, Mt. Hood and others in Oregon.

[brentspeak]

17. Portland should hire some Twin Cities people

to show 'em how to get things back on track during snow-storms. Minneapolis/St.Paul are amazingly efficient during wintertime.

[MissB]

19. I lived in Alaska for years.

When it snowed, people still drove.

It isn't so much a matter of the main roads being kept open - in Portland, at least, they are good about gravelling and plowing and what have you. It is the drivers that don't know how to drive. I think you'd have to teach the whole population of Portland. :rofl:

I-84 was pretty wild last week when they shut it down. The gorge is an amazingly beautiful place but boy can it ever get icy on that highway. They wouldn't even let the truckers through.

[pdxmom]

23. Heck, I've noticed that when we go from summer dry to the first rain

in October, all the drivers have to relearn how to drive in wet!!

I've been driving in snow all my life and stay off the roads around here when it starts. Self-defense reasons only. Those folks are nutz!!!

[0rganism]

32. it's true, Portland has some of the worst drivers I've ever seen

combine that with some particularly poor flow planning on the major arterials, and the slightest adverse variation in weather can send the whole tri-county area into a traffic tailspin.

[Radio_Lady]

45. Y'know, I've heard that about every place I've lived in the past 50 years.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Florida?

A bunch of old people who don't know their arses from their elbows, and if they did know, they have forgotten.

Los Angeles?

Christ, the commutes eat up years of people's lives -- and the network of freeways is just totally boggling.

New York City?

Well, what more do I have to say?

Boston?

The first snow storm and we had wrecks all over the place. Same with the rain in the summer on tar roads, slick with oil.

Hendersonville, NC?

People drove those roads around Asheville and through the mountains like nut cases. Frequently there were people who drove over the edges.

Seattle? (Lived there for six months in 2000)

Millions of people funneling in and out of their big cities every day. Wall to wall traffic at all times of the day. Ferry boats chugging around the islands; roads pitted with studded tires marks (outlawed since the 1970s in the Boston area).

Portland?

Hey, my impression is that Portland is not as bad as many other places. Of course, if you've never lived in other cities, you might think it's terrible.

[brentspeak]

62. NJ really does have the worst drivers in the nation

Hands down.

[0rganism]

63. hmm, one of the worst Portland drivers I knew was from NJ

riding with him was a waking nightmare -- a very aggressive driver, not like the usual Portland badness which typically manifests as basic incompetence and failure to read roadsigns. He'd go really fast, not look before pulling out onto busy roads, cut people off without a second glance... yet he did have an uncanny knack for driving legally when police were visible. :eyes:

[Radio_Lady]

65. LOL. Your response cracks me up!!!

I have a first cousin and her husband in Haworth, NJ. She uses the busses into New York all the time because she has Parkinson's disease -- and is in her 70s. Probably doesn't count...

[windbreeze]

75. LOL....I didn't know you knew my dad....

who lived just outside Philly...this guy sounds just like him...omg...I never saw such crazy driving as I did on a trip back East...especially on 80...in town, my dad would race from light to light...then have to slam on the brakes when the next light was red..I rode into Philly on the Schuykill expressway with a total madman at the wheel...I never saw such driving in my life, and that was after I had lived AND DRIVEN in crazy California...it's funny now...but it sure wasn't then..
wb

[mindfulNJ]

68. As someone who just moved from NJ

I second that. I was terrified driving the whole three years I lived there.

[eridani]

57. As with any skill--

--the less often you practice, the worse you are at it. Seattle and Portland don't get enough so that people can actually learn the skills.

[uppityperson]

40. It is the ice that really gets us out here, for example

last wk we had a storm, dumped almost a foot in places. People drove for a day with temps around freezing, but ground was warmer so they compacted snow and it got slushy underneath. Then it froze. All those ruts turned into ice. I got stuck in a flat parkinglot, between a couple ruts, and I grew up in midwest and spent a bunch of time in AK. The ice is the problem. Not so much the snow but the ice. And the lack of snowplows. Yes, the main streets get plowed a bit and sanded, but driving on sanded rutted ice still is bad.

[eridani]

56. That's because they have so many of them that preparing for them--

--is cost-effective. It's a much harder sell to local governments if you have only a couple of snowfalls a year where the snow sticks to the road for more than a day or so.

[pdxmom]

21. Climate-wise, this is an extremely diverse state. We have everything

from tropical rainforest environments to desert and all in between.

And when I moved here, I was amazed at how quickly out of the city we were in a rural area. We have an urban growth boundary around Portland, which limits the land use...you can't have urban/suburban sprawl. It's actually a pretty nice situation.

You'd be amazed at making the drive from Portland to the Coast. Mostly forest/government land. Few houses and no services. And if you can avoid the clear cuts, it's absolutely gorgeous.

[Radio_Lady]

48. Yeah, no services is right. Try to find a bathroom after many miles

on Rt. 26. Most little places say, BATHROOM ONLY FOR CUSTOMERS -- and they're really nasty about it.

Talk about western warmth... forget it!

[me b zola]

50. It's not just that it's rural...

I lived in mid-MO for several years and it is quite rural with many backroads and even more gravel roads. The difference is (I now live in OR) that in rural mid-MO you can get "stuck" in the deepest part of the country and usually not have to walk a mile to find a farm house. In the NW there is a great deal of State forest land--you can walk for days and not run into another human being or building.

[sandnsea]

5. It's remote

This is the same road that those RV campers got caught on last year. It's a forest service road, one tiny lane, probably dirt. Most of the forest service roads I've been on around here are dirt and most are poorly maintained because they really want to do away with many of them as lands are turned back to wilderness. Anyway, that road is about 100 miles south of me and shouldn't be taken 90% of the year. I don't know if it's marked or blocked in winter, it should be. Then again, local people would probably get mad because they know the roads and use them for hunting and fishing and such. It's just tragic.

[brentspeak]

8. How long is the road?

It sounds like the Road to Nowhere.

[sandnsea]

34. Oh gosh, it's beautiful! Rogue River country

The road is something like 100 miles, but it's like 30 mph 100 miles. Takes a long time to get through. But it is absolutely beautiful country, very popular river rafting and salmon fishing. Great in the summer, just a bad road when it snows and we had a wet and cold November. Nobody uses this road in winter.

Anyway, here's pics of the general area - in summer.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/rogue-siskiyou/recreation/rivers/lower-rogue-photos.shtml

Edited for better pic link.

[brentspeak]

35. Ok, now I definitely see can how they got stuck there

There's actually a similar-looking area in nearby Bear Mtn State Park (just over the border in NY state). Only a maniac wants to drive around there in snow at nighttime.

[sandnsea]

37. Another problem

Hwy 101 has key towns all along the way. Every main town has a good Hwy from I-5 over to the coast - except Gold Beach. So anybody who has traveled other roads to other coastal towns - would naturally think the Grants Pass to Gold Beach road would be a good one. That assumption could have played into their decision to take that road too, I don't know.

[magellan]

38. My sister and I used to go for "hell rides" through Bear Mountain State Park

...at night. But never in the snow!

[jannyk]

7. It 's a 'pass' road

in other words it goes over a mountain pass to the Coast from highway 5 (the Cali-Canada Hwy). There are other, better roads going to the same place (Gold Beach) but apparently they missed a turnoff and decided to take this one instead very bad choice.

It is 2 lanes at best, very narrow, windy and not well maimtained mountain road. There is no population between there and the coast (50 miles). At night it is pitch black and with snow/fog would be a disaster. Also there are dozens (if not hundreds) of logging side roads - not really roads at all - but wide tracks. At night, in snow, it would be very easy to turn onto one of these logging roads and not know the difference.

We have lots of roads like this around the back of Tahoe as well as in Oregon/Washington. They are not to be driven in winter and many get 'closed' for months. As far as I know, the Kims didn't even have a 4 wheeler or chains - just a sedan. It really was a very dumb move.

[brentspeak]

12. Sheesh, after all this time you'd think they'd at least put some lights there

or emergency telephone stations.

[MissB]

14. Very remote.

Some of these roads probably don't see people on them for days. It wouldn't be worth the cost.

A better solution would be to close it seasonally with a gate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. These aren't roads meant for through traffic.

We're talking roads used for logging trucks. Rangers. White water rafters in the summer.

The Kims never should have been on that road.

[Xithras]

71. The costs would be incredible.

There are thousands of miles of back roads like this in Oregon, and most aren't anywhere near existing power or phone lines. The costs of running the lines alone would be an incredible undertaking. On top of that, many of these roads are incredibly narrow and are carved out of hillsides and cliff faces. There simply isn't room to put in light or call boxes because placing them in the existing roadway would further narrow the already narrow roadways. The logging trucks would knock them all over in a year.

This really isn't an Oregon problem. People on the east coast often don't understand just how rural most of the West really is. Even here in California, there are back roads that you can travel down that see perhaps one car a week. There are still unpaved roads all over the place, and there are vast stretches of wilderness that see few humans other than seasonal hunters and the occasional rancher. Once you move away from the major cities along the I-5 corridor, this coast gets very rural very quickly.

The Kim's left the civilization of the I-5 corridor and entered the wilderness. The wild places of America can be incredibly unforgiving if you aren't prepared for them.

[lapfog_1]

9. They were on a Forest Service road.

It's narrow, steep, twisty, usually not paved, there are often streams that run right across them (leaving gullys in the road that aren't repaired until spring). And where they were it had been very very wet (with some snow on the ground) and cold. Steep hillsides on either side of the road and trees right up to the roadside (no shoulders or things like that). I think the report was that they even tried to turn around but were unable to. Also, it's easy to get lost. There are many little side trails that cut off from the main forest road, but they look just like the main road. They usually don't go anywhere useful.

This particular FS road is not plowed in the winter, so any snow on the ground would present a real problem, even to an 4wheel drive SUV. Hard to get traction in snow/ice/mud.

[MissB]

13. We have to repair a small section of a forest service road nearly every spring

to get to our favorite camping spot. The road washes out after a wet spring, and well, it *is* Oregon. If we waited for the forest service, it'd never really get fixed. I'm sure they have more pressing road concerns in that particular area.

[SoCalDem]

11. Rugged terrain, shitty roads and more tall trees than you can ever imagine

and since lots of the roads are forestry roads, no one travels them very much, so when people do venture on them, there's no one nearby for help :(

[LisaM]

20. You can just go 100 yards into the woods in the mountains

and it's like you've been swallowed up. Driving that weekend was fierce. We were north of Seattle, on a main road, and it was practically undriveable. Also, it gets extremely dark here (it's 4:45 now in Seattle and it's pitch black outside).

I would question why they were attempting to drive off the main roads at all in that weather, at night, but maybe they didn't intend to get off the main road. It's so very sad. I had a friend who died in an avalanche up in BC a few years ago. It was eerily similar in some ways - his name was also James, and he also left a wife and two young daughters. It was just heartbreaking.

[SeattleGirl]

24. They apparently took a wrong turn; that's what put them on the

service road. It's so sad.

[Cleita]

25. There's a lot of wilderness in Oregon.

Some of the towns are very far apart. No one should go anywhere that there is wilderness especially over mountains and ranges without water, food, warm clothing and especially maps and a compass. You never know when you are going to break down or you might have to weather a snow storm. It happens over the Donner Pass in the Sierras in winter where they close the I-80 during a bad storm and anyone who is stranded there has to stay in their cars until the storm passes.

Also, there might not be cell phone service or even a pay phone anywhere nearby. In winter there might be landslides or roads washed out. My late husband and I never traveled in winter unless we had to. I have been stranded in wilderness areas so remote for days that no other person or car come by. But since I camp as a hobby, I'm usually well supplied.

[brentspeak]

26. The Donner Pass?

:scared:

[Cleita]

30. Yep, the very same one. The I-80 crosses it from the California

Central Valley to Reno. I always thought it ironic that they actually have a Donner picnic ground there.

[B Calm]

58. Driving my 18 wheeler from Sacramento to Chicago I spent the night

in the Donner's summit rest area. It was raining going up the mountain, that should have been a clue to forge my log book and drive on down the mountain to Reno to spend the night. Instead I pulled into the rest area and climbed into the sleeper. 8 hours later there was something like 3 feet of fresh snow outside. I couldn't leave the rest area unless I had tire chains. So now I was stuck for another 4 hours until they lifted the chain law.

[brentspeak]

61. Driving a rig in those conditions is probably the hardest thing to do

There's a road nearby me, Skyline Drive, which bends at a 45-degree angle for over a mile. Trucks are barred from the Drive during slick conditions (with good reason). I'd imagine there's probably a lot of similar roads, and less well-paved, over in that area for trucks to hazard across.

[murphymom]

27. Not a lot of "there" here

I was looking up population figures from the census recently and discovered that the estimated population of the entire STATE of Oregon is about 170,000 people less than the CITY of Los Angeles. Plus, the terrain and elevation varies quite a bit - some areas get a lot of snow, some get virtually none. If you don't know the state you could unwittingly find yourself in conditions you aren't prepared for.

The area where the Kims got stuck is in the mountains and would get severe weather, plus, unless you are on a main highway like 199 or 101, there would be virtually no traffic so nobody would be driving by to see you if you were in an accident or stuck. Very sparse population.

[0rganism]

29. plenty of terrain pictures at the Oregonian (local daily) website

sometimes, a picture really is worth a few paragraphs...
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/photos/

I'd put a few of the actual photos in, but it looks like they may have some copyright stuff going. You'll see very quickly why they got in trouble.

[brentspeak]

33. Thanks for the link

Pictures of the searchers being forced to use all-terrain vehicles just to get around. The area looks a lot like rural New Hampshire and Vermont.

[Radio_Lady]

49. Thanks, Organism. Beautiful photos, but cruel and dangerous terrain.

[OnionPatch]

39. They're dangerous because they are untraveled

There are tons of "forest" roads in the west that are just little un-maintained dirt roads that no one travels on much, especially in winter. If you get stuck on one of them, you may be many miles away from the nearest highway or person. You may not be found for weeks. Usually a cell phone won't even work; mountains are all over and they block cell phone reception.

Another difference is that national forests out west are really national forests, meaning people don't live in them like they do back east. If you're in the forest out here, you are in the forest for real and you're probably not near any civilization.

[LWolf]

41. Black ice, frozen fog.

I rarely have trouble with the snow. Of course, my little toyota truck has 4wd and is high profile enough to manage a reasonable amount of snow. My house sits a couple of acres back from the dirt road, and I don't have anything to plow my long dirt driveway. I've never had any trouble getting out, getting down the private then county dirt roads to the highway.

The trouble is on the highway, where frozen pavement can be really slick. Sliding around is the worst part. The frozen fog is next, making it really difficult to see anything. The best strategy, besides sticking to main roads that will have cinders down on the ice, is to slow waaaaay down, take your time, and leave plenty of space between you and the next car.

[PsN2Wind]

44. Well, in this case ,sadly, poor judgement

By the time they got to Galice, they should have been thinking that they were on the wrong road, when the got to Graves Creek, they should have known it.

[Blue_Roses]

47. It's hard to imagine that type of terrain

when you live in the south. We rarely see snow and ice much less the rugged mountain terrain. I can see how someone who isn't familiar with the area could get lost. I've tried to take a shortcut through the Quachita Mountains in Arkansas during the fall and that was an experience,

It's just so terribly sad. :cry:

[Duer 157099]

51. Here's a satellite image of the area

The arrow shows approximately where the car was; James was found to the NE about 3 miles, close to the river.

You can zoom in pretty close to see what it's like -- and not even sure when these images were taken, there's some but not too much snow, certainly less than there is now

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.629550+N,+123.858649+W&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=11&ll=42.631433,-123.85849&spn=0.275323,0.772476&t=h&iwloc=addr

edit to add link to where James was found:

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.6585+N,+123.7410+W+&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=12&ll=42.658454,-123.741074&spn=0.186079,0.43396&t=h&iwloc=addr

[Duer 157099]

54. Wrong link in above post

That was to Little Windy Creek, but now the reports are saying he was found in Big Windy Creek, which actually makes much more sense when you look at the maps/photos:

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.6476+N,+123.7232+W+&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=13&ll=42.636106,-123.747082&spn=0.089411,0.21698&t=h

[Gregorian]

52. I take the logging roads to the market each week.

Now I live no more than twenty miles from where Mr. Kim died. And I spend more time on those roads than many people. I live off a road off a road off a road from highway 42. I'm at the end of the pavement. So I go out the driveway, and to the right it's gravel. Then I can make a right again, and I'm on dirt. Here is what is so scary about this area. That dirt road goes for miles. And off of it are many other dirt roads. Most of which dead end. But there are some that tie into others. And that's where you get into trouble.

I only ride roads after I've spent time on Topozone or Google Earth memorizing the trail network.

So between getting lost in a maze of trails, or getting stuck in ruts or in a mud bog, there are a number of ways of getting in trouble here. I don't believe there was much snow, because we're coastal. But it has been 25 degrees at night.

Here's the other part. Once you get off the road, it's impossible to get around. Not only is it impossibly steep, but the undergrowth is so heavy you can't negotiate. I'm surprized he didn't get into trouble with a bear or mountain lion.

I ride my bicycle through this country, and I've had my share of scares with bears and or getting lost. But I know where I am. I can at least aim in the direction of home. I don't think he had a clue.

I'm so saddened by the loss.

[brentspeak]

60. Mountain lions?

Holy cow, now that's what I call a rural area.

[Radio_Lady]

69. There was some discussion about Mr. Kim and wildlife, specifically bears.

People wondered why he chose to go down into that canyon. He might have been approached by animals or heard them, and felt he had to get away. At least they got the body out before any animals got to him.

[B Calm]

80. Aren't bears hibernating now?

[earth mom]

53. We moved to Oregon from Southern Cal

and one thing a friend who lived in Northern Cal told me was to always always always travel with coats, blankets, food and water. We live near a big city and when we head to the mountains to the east or cross the mountains to west-to the coast-we follow my friends advice and bring it all with us plus we never go off the main road to explore and we don't go anywhere in bad weather. However, our first year here, our family decided to cut down our own Christmas tree, so we got a $5 permit and a map from the forest service and drove up one of the marked roads on the map. The entire time I felt uneasy and scared and we left after less than an hour because I refused to go any further up to look for Noble trees. Looking back, I don't think we realized just how easy it would have been for us to get lost or stuck and we never did that again.

[SoCalDem]

55. Whwn we lived in "snow country" we always had 50 lb of cat litter in the trunk

extra weight helped, and if we got stuck we had something to try and use for traction..
also had steel-studded snowtires, and and extra battery and lots of blankets in the trunk too..and flares..and those parafin coated packages of matches..

We never needed any of it, but we were always prepared.

[hayu_lol]

59. Enough posters to give a rough idea of just what roads like these are like...

throughout much of Oregon. I am further east, on the east side of the Cascades and about 65 miles south of Crater Lake. The pass from Klamath Falls to Medford(80-100 miles)is a first class highway...but those 'interesting logging roads' are all over the place and you can get lost on those even in summer.

Sometimes these roads, even the decent ones, have deep ditches on both sides...go over the edge and no one can see you. Cell phones frequently don't work. There are few humans in residence, no stores, no anything. The logging roads are not plowed or even well-maintained at this time.

Temps here in Klamath Falls last week were 17/8. Snow storms, freezing fog(the real killer)which lays a coat of ice over the road surface. These are all real wilderness areas...nothing much civilized about them. Snowfall can be very deep...not like Donner Pass in CA, but several feet deep. More rain out of Grants Pass most of the year.

Most of my friends are hunters/campers/hikers and so on. They go out to familiar places fully loaded in case of breakdowns or other problems. Blankets are a must, likewise water, dry foods, maybe even a campstove. Shovels and such could save your life. If you are a non-smoker, make sure you have plenty of matches/lighters. We've lost several people up here over the past few years because they were unable to get a fire going.

Most times, just stay with your car, try to stay dry and calm, and enjoy your 'vacation.'

[Radio_Lady]

67. Thanks, Hayu_lol. You sound very well prepared and certainly have given us pause to

think about exploring any logging roads or other gravel covered roads, winter OR summer!

[Horse with no Name]

64. A friend of mine that lives in Oregon

Her brother (who also grew up there) was killed on what they call black ice there.

[Radio_Lady]

66. We got plenty of "black ice" 25 miles west of Boston, beyond Rt 128.

It was a constant winter problem. Everyone was expected to go to work, no matter what the weather. I worked for an auto related business and this was a winter with 144 inches of snow or something like that. One winter evening, I ended up with my car in a ditch. That was in the winter of 1995-96, coming home from Dedham, MA to our former home in Sudbury, MA. 23 miles turned into four hours of driving and it was horrible.

[karlrschneider]

70. Black ice is a big problem way down here in Oklahoma, believe it or not

We get more ice than snow and when it does snow there is usually a layer of ice underneath it. We still have about 3" of snow/ice from the storm a week ago on the shaded areas.

[Blue_Roses]

72. And what makes that much worse..

is nobody down here knows how to drive in it! I live in Dallas and when the roads ice over, it's a mess. The whole city shuts down just about.

[karlrschneider]

82. Believe me, I know! I'm in Dallas 20 or so times a year. Don't always

get away from Addison or Love but I've been in some of your ice storms. We get more snow up here but you guys have more ice in winter. :D

[Critters2]

83. When I lived in Mass, I fell while walking on black ice.

Couldn't see it at all, my feet just went out from under me. Broke my tailbone--which is more painful than it sounds. Now I'm very careful on black ice--walking or driving!

[windbreeze]

74. uhhhh, trust me, nothing like NJ...

we are talking a windy, dark road, through a forest at night, with few markers, and with a snow storm howling around you...NOT what anyone wants to do exactly...and nothing like the roads in Joisey...busy isn't the problem, isolated, late at night with little traffic is...very easy to get fatally lost...

[FlaGranny]

81. All depends on what part of New

Jersey you are from. If you are from Joisey, you are right. If you are from Jersey, there are some vast tracts of forest with scattered dirt roads. People have been lost and died there. My sister was lost for 2 days once. Just recently I read that someone had been lost there for around a week. This is in South Jersey, but the mountains of North Jersey have some pretty forbidding areas also. Get lost in either place in the winter, on foot, you are in big trouble.

[FlaGranny]

78. Not to change the subject too much

but I'm from NJ also. I lived on the edge of an area where people regularly have gotten lost. The Wharton Tract, over 110,000 acres of pine trees. Get yourself lost in there and, well, you could end up lost a long time.

[OregonBlue]

79. Even our mountain HIGHWAYS are confusing. Many are only 2-lane and intersect

without good signage. It's very easy to come to a junction of two small highways and accidentally take the wrong one. If you add to it fog or snow or fog with snow, it is very easy to take the wrong road. Oregon is not heavily populated in the mountain areas.

If you've taken the wrong road, lack of signage makes it likely that you will travel some distance before realizing you are not headed the way you wanted to go. Since our mountain roads are also intersected by many Forest Service roads, it's also very likely that in trying to backtrack, you might easily take another wrong turn.

There are thousands of miles of small highways and Forest Service roads in the Coast Range and Cascades of Washington, Oregon and California that have no communities at all. They are only there to connect communities or provide forest access.

You really do need to know exactly where you are going, and which roads intersect and where, if you plan to drive a West Coast mountain range in winter.

[GreenTea]

84. I'm driving that same road outside Grants Pass tomorrow...piece of cake in my

pretty black raised Tacoma 4x4 with big mud & snow tires.

[jmowreader]

86. On hardball, snow over ice is always fun

Let's say, just for GP, that the day has been nice and warm--say, in the 40s--and some of the snow has melted. That water will probably wind up on the road--which is still way below 32°F and causes said water to freeze solid.

Now comes night, and you get a couple inches of snowfall. Now you can't see the ice, and snow is slick all by itself.

I was in Spokane County with my family one fine night trying to get back to Idaho. To get from Spokane to US 95 in Idaho, you take Washington 27 to Washington 278 (which turns into Idaho 58) then turn onto US 95 near the Coeur d'Alenes' casino. Anyway, one of the roads that branches off Washington 27 is the Dishman-Mica Road. The intersection is at the bottom of a 300-foot-deep valley, and the roads leading out of it curve. Fortunately, the WAY they curve is into the side of a mountain. I was on the Dishman-Mica Road. It was one of those 40° days I talked about, it was night when I was trying to get out, and it was snowing its ass off. You could sit there and watch people who had snow tires on their cars, who had chains, who had four-wheel-drive vehicles, who had EVERY advantage you could possibly have over a bad road, get about halfway up the hill then lose traction and just slide back into the side of the mountain. (There are concrete guardrails on the non-mountain side.)

We spent the night at my uncle's house. The road was impassable until the next afternoon, so we used a different route to get home--I-90 to Coeur d'Alene then down US 95.