GPS Is Not Always Your Friend

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

I know that my parents practically RELY on their GPS anytime they go somewhere new. They don't know what a Thomas Guide is anymore.

Did the Kim family use their GPS system to give them the quickest route to Gold Beach, which resulted in them taking a road they should have been nowhere near?

I'll get flamed for this, but people really need to be more careful, and think about consequences of their actions. It is doubly sad that a tech savy guy was probably so convinced by a computer to take a certain road, that he failed to see the "signs" that it would be safer to make an adjustment than take the chance he did.

I think that at certain points in everyone's life, they make a decision which could have consequences far reaching for the rest of their live's. By luck or chance, some make it through those situations, while others think carefully and choose the right course. Others slip, and fall through the cracks. I am just more sad since this situation was preventable. It is no less tragic, in fact, it's more so, since with a little forethought, their route to Gold Beach would have been a little longer than expected, and the whole family would never have gone through this tragedy.

Be careful out there folks.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. I found that out when I went to NY this Thanksgiving.

Brand new minivan with a GPS system. We got into traffic, I asked for and received a detour and when the first leg of the detour was over, it kept trying to send me back to the original road.

[lectrobyte]

2. Where'd you hear they had a GPS? Everything I've read said they

were using a plain old map, and missed their turn off, and turned on to the road that was supposedly closed, but someone had vandalized the gate. I'd think had they had a GPS, they'd not missed their turn off for the good road, and probably been ok.

[jobycom]

4. I heard they were using a map, too. There was a question about which map

since some had the road marked as closed in winter, others didn't.

Do GPS directional systems not account for seasonal roads? Seems like they would.

[Kingshakabobo]

5. I agree. Would the GPS send them down a dead-end logging road?

I doubt it.

[Lex]

3. I read too that the road may have shown up on the GPS

without further information on the fact that it wasn't really a passable road under those conditions.

Very tragic.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. I saw it on the news last night.

And, judging by the newness of the minivan they showed, I would say it's a safe bet that they had GPS.

So very, very sad.

[Atman]

6. We have to specifically tell people NOT to use GPS or Google or MapQuest

You'll be taken down an old logging road. If you go at night, you may not be comin' out when you don't see the road turning into marshland. Yet, the logging road has a name, and if it really existed it would take ten minutes off the trip. You'd be amazed, though, at the number of people who still insist on using that road just because they saw it on MapQuest.

Once had a guy try to drive a fifth-wheel motor home down there, and there is no room to turn around once you've gone too far.

[Aviation Pro]

7. Although GPS is a marvel....

...it is absolutely unnecessary for normal surface traffic. We have a tough enough time in aviation maintaining situational awareness so GPS technology is a God send. However, we teach our students never to become complacent and to always have alternatives for navigation (VOR, NDB, RMI, etc.).

[Renew Deal]

13. GPS is extremely useful in surface traffic.

Especuially in rural and unknown areas. It can tell you where you are and how to get to where you are going quickly. You can tell the GPS to ignore certain types of roads such as unpaved, highway, etc. It can be used to get you to a gas station quickly if you are desperate. It's extremely useful and even necessary on certain types of trips.

[karlrschneider]

20. I still fly to a few airports with only an NDB approach! But I sure

do like having the GPS for backup. I agree it's pretty useless for road travel though.

[Caoimhe]

8. Ask anyone who has geocached

a GPS-r can be your enemy! Never assume that the pointing arrow is telling you which way to travel, only where you will be when you end up there. "As the crow flies" has sent me into many briar patches and unsafe canyons, luckily nothing I couldn't get out of. As far as the base maps go on those things, they pretty much universally suck. Your best bet is a paper road map and a stop to ask for directions if you are lost. If you can look at a USGS quad map and get some basic elevations that will help you determine if you will encounter snow or ice. In Oregon we have a cool website www.tripcheck.com that is VITAL if we plan on going over ANY pass in rain or snow. Its also nice because it shows where construction is so you can plan around it. I don't go anywhere without my laptop anymore.

That said, I have nothing disparaging to say about James Kim. He seemed like a good guy who did what he thought was best. He just ran out of steam (no food in his belly), got hypothermic... and couldn't keep going. My thoughts are with his family.

[alarimer]

21. The marine charts are very good though

They are every bit as good as NOAA paper charts. The Garmin I use is exactly the same as the NOAA chart. So it very dependable in a marine environment. Now of course sometimes the unit fails and you need backup but I trust them, at least in the applications I use them for.

[hfojvt]

36. my beef is with the lack of sensible planning

not that most Americans would not do the same thing.
But he was not dressed for the weather. He did not even have proper winter clothing (long underwear, boots, a hat, a scarf) even in his car or luggage. Most motorists do not dress for the weather. Car trouble forcing them to walk even one mile can result in severe frostbite. Some blankets, extra food, candles and flares should be basic for winter driving too.

[karlrschneider]

9. I commented similarly in an earlier post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2872761&mesg_id=2874376

[Renew Deal]

11. I have owned multiple GPS

I used my handheld when I was going from Mt. Rainier to Mt. St. Helens. The GPS map had unamed roads listed that might have taken me from one place to the other without having to go back to the main roads. I'm not sure if I ever even found those roads, but I opted to not use them. I knew I would end up in the woods and it would have been a risk. The GPS is a very smart and very useful tool, but you still have research and plan a trip.

I typically use a GPS as well as paper maps on long trips outside of my area. Paper maps are still useful.

[warrens]

12. they evidently took a wrong turn down a dead-end logging road

And got stuck in the snow. I don't think GPS had anything to do with this.

[xultar]

24. True.

[liberal N proud]

14. GPS is a tool that should be used in conjunction with maps and other guides

It should not be used entirely by itself, it should enhance the trip in conjunction with maps and other guides for an area. It does not matter if you are in the jungle or the urban jungle you still need a good understanding of the area and the area beyond.
I always study printed maps, on-line maps and run trip planning software before I go anywhere. But I still know the area I am traveling, what areas are OK and what ones to avoid in adjacent areas.
Common sense.

[Jawja]

23. Yes.

I took a trip to Arizona in October and used both GPS and maps. I studied the maps beforehand and used the GPS to help with location and turnoff points.

I would not have gone to a strange area relying on GPS alone.

[sam sarrha]

15. when they put it in your car and monthly bill you 4 miles driven on the road.. they have got to tax

somebody.. and it will be you not the rich and privileged

[Ian David]

16. My Verizon GPS system has some nutty quirks to it

For the most part, it gives pretty good advice.

But here's something that concerns me:

A couple months ago, the GPS stopped working for a few hours. So, I called Verizon, and they said it was a nation-wide problem. They also told me they had "someone on the tower" working on it right.

I didn't think about it enough until after I hung-up, or else I would have followed-up by asking, "Do I understand correctly that a fault on just ONE tower can disrupt your entire GPS system?"

I find it curious and troublesome.

[maxsolomon]

17. google map that area

between agness & galice. you'll get an idea of the terrain - bear camp road climbs to over 4000', and is mainly hairpins on a ridgetop the whole way. not such a big deal in the california coast range, but the siskyous aren't 'coast range' like further north in oregon - they're real mountains, geologically distinct from the cascades; rugged, and 4000' to 5000' from base to top.

they got hit with a real storm, too. those roads are no joke. the way they went is the only way THROUGH - otherwise you go north (42) or south (grants pass to crescent city).

a topo map, or asking at a gas station, and they might have, SHOULD have, turned around & gone back up i-5. expecting good signage on forest roads in logging country is asking too much. there are 1000s of roads up there - all have a little brown USFS sign at the beginning, and if you don't have the forest map, you're fucked.

stay with the car - and if you do, don't leave the road to head down a next-to-vertical creek to the rogue river. go back the way you came.

i don't know that GPS would have helped or hindered.

RIP, James Kim.

[uppityperson]

33. 2 images, maps of the mistaken Y.

This will show you the satellite image of the area. See the Y? Which road is bigger?
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.5749+N,+123.7505+W+&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=42.574898,-123.750504&spn=0.005594,0.013561&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr

now a roadmap of the area, showing the correct road is the one that goes left, not the obviously larger one (above) that goes right. Local pilot of helicopter said this was an easy to mistake corner, happens often.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&om=1&z=15&ll=42.574795,-123.748755&spn=0.016876,0.032873

GPS is good for telling you where you are. Where to go can be more difficult to figure out.

[Richard D]

18. I've never used one . . .

. . . and sorry to be a luddite, but I think it makes people over reliant and trusting of it. With a map, you have to think, and you can see a lot by what the road or trail looks like on the map. I've navigated many places just with a map and a compass. I hate to think about all the people who just hear "turn right, turn left" and follow those directions blindly.

[InvisibleTouch]

19. MapQuest has tried to turn me the wrong way numerous times.

I'm not quite high-tech enough to use GPS, but I do consult MapQuest - with the understanding that I use it as a general guideline only, not an instruction sheet. On more than one occasion, MapQuest's directions have told me to turn exactly the opposite way than where I needed to go; fortunately I always consult a paper map to double-check, plus I keep an awareness of where the sun is in the sky, so I know approximately what direction I'm travelling.

MapQuest is great for giving you the length of a trip in miles and hours (fairly accurate, unless you run into unexpected construction), but always double-check your route on a paper map before you trust it.

[Jawja]

22. No, because when they

made the wrong turn away from their destination, GPS would have alerted them. I use GPS in addition to maps and know from experience that if you are using GPS navigation to get to a specific destination and you get off the path, the GPS will recalculate and give you a new course.

If Kim was using GPS when he took the wrong turn on the dead end road, his GPS would have alerted him; in fact, the GPS would have prevented him from making this turn in the first place.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

25. Incorrect

GPS may have initially directed them the correct way. However, anyone who has used GPS knows that if you for example, pass the offramp you were supposed to take, the system will automatically recalibrate based upon where you are currently located.

So, in this case, if they miss the road they should have taken, and continued further on the highway, GPS may have seen the next offramp, and alerted them to go that way towards Gold Beach.

I may be mistaken, but this ordinarily might have been the quickest route to Gold Beach, if not for the time of year.

The only ones who really know what happened are Mr. & Mrs. Kim. And only one of them survived.

[Jawja]

26. Why incorrect when the road they

took was a dead end and did not lead them to their destination? I get a U-Turn signal on my GPS when I veer off course to the point where there is no alternate turn up the road in any recalibration of the directions.

He took a wrong turn onto a dead end road. If he had GPS, it should have alerted him that he could not reach his destination unless he turned around and went back the other way.

On edit: I am not referring to missing the off ramp on an expressway. I'm referring to the wrong turn he made on the mountain course. If he was using GPS to navigate the mountain route, it would have notified him that he was making a wrong turn when he took the dead end road.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

28. Was It A Dead End Road?

I thought that it went all the way to the coast and Gold Beach, where they were headed.

I admit I don't know all the details, but thought I heard that during the summer, he would have been able to make it to the coast traveling along that road. It wasn't a dead end, just snow covered and impassable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. I don't think it was a dead end road.

They missed their proper turn going to the coast (highway 42). They then turned onto 23, which was not a good choice. It would have taken them to the coast if they had followed it, but for some unknown reason they then turned off onto an even smaller forest service road. There are reports that this was a dead end, but given a map posted in another thread, there were other ways out.

The helicopter footage of the Kim's car clearly shows them stopped at a fork in the road.

[Jawja]

34. Yes, per SFGate.com, Kim took a

right on a logging road that went 15 miles eventually to a dead end, instead of bearing left to Gold Beach:

Pilot Had Hunch

I'm thinking that if the GPS was picking up a signal and the maps were current, it would have warned him that he needed to make a U-turn after bearing right and go back toward the left turn to Gold Beach. I've had this happen to me.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

35. John Rachor Is A Stud

What a great guy, and a wonderful thing for him to do. Smart thinking on his part. He went out of his way to try and help the Kim family, and I admire his efforts.

[ComerPerro]

27. here's my question: Who the fuck is this family, and why should I care?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

29. He Was A Prominent Editor With CNET

He wasn't just a nobody actually, and had quite a large following who read his work on a consistent basis.

Go to CNET, and you'll see hundreds of pages of support outpouring, from loyal readers who valued his work.

[ComerPerro]

30. fascinating

and they found his body?

[Avalux]

31. A fellow DUer knew him personally -

she posted when they went missing, asking people to keep an eye out for them. That's what piqued my interest in the family. The entire story is quite tragic. You don't have to care, but some respect would be appropriate. :hi:

[fujiyama]

37. This is just one of those stories

which hits you, because it could happen to just about anyone.

Everyone has made a wrong turn and get lost, especially on a back road...and many of us have taken road trips with families and got lost along the way.

What many of us forget, I think, is that there are actually parts of the US which are not populated. It's hard to imagine we can get to a point where our cell phones don't work and we have no contact whatsoever with the rest of the world.

A truly unfortunate story...I'm glad the kids and the mother survived though...