Christian fraternity sues UGA

[deadparrot]

(NEW) A Christian fraternity filed a federal lawsuit against the University on Wednesday, claiming that University officials refuse to recognize the fraternity as a registered student group because it requires its members and officers to share the group’s Christian beliefs.

A suit was filed on behalf of Beta Upsilon Chi by attorneys with the Christian Legal Society and Alliance Defense Fund in District Court for Middle District of Georgia. Defendents include University President Michael Adams, Vice President of Student Affairs Rodney Bennett and Ed Mirecki, Director of Student Activities and Organizations.

“Christian student groups cannot be singled out for discrimination. The right of association applies to all student groups on a public university campus,” said Timothy J. Tracey, litigation counsel for CLS’s Center for Law & Religious Freedom, on the ADl Web site. “The University of Georgia deprives Christian student groups of this right when they force them to open their membership and leadership to students who disagree with their Christian beliefs.”

BYX, or Brothers Under Christ, is a fraternity of Christian college students who wish to foster fellowship through their common belief in Jesus Christ. The university denied the fraternity recognition in November, claiming the group’s requirements that officials and members profess faith in Christ is “religious discrimination.”

http://www.redandblack.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/12/06/45770fefd7c27

[Hosnon]

1. How does it work with African-American greek societies? Seems these Christians should just

model themselves after that.

Does anyone know? Are they technically open to anyone but only African-Americans apply and get accepted in reality?

:shrug:

[JoDog]

6. Open to all

Technically, most historically black frats and sororities must be open to applications from everyone--no matter what race. However, that doesn't mean that everybody makes it through the rush process. While these societies must accept the applications of white people and let them take part in rushing, that doesn't mean that invitations to join will be extended to them. The frats and sororities are allowed to pick and choose members based on the group's criteria, which are often known only to the membership committees.

While I was a student at Eastern Illinois, one of the historically black sororities had a white member. And while she was a student at Western Illinois, my (very white) sister was invited to rush a black sorority (she decided to rush a service sorority instead because it jived with her schedule a little better).


This Christian frat probably could use a similar tactic--let anyone rush, then eliminate the ungodly in the membership process.

[Hosnon]

8. Sounds good to me. I'm sure some sororities weed out girls based on

weight but if asked would say the girl "just didn't fit in".

The Christians should just start the fraternity and let anyone apply. I'm sure after a few conversations they will be able to tell who is and who isn't a Christian. Plus, I doubt many people would try to get in out of malice - who has that kind of time?

[Norquist Nemesis]

60. Go Big Blue!

Always nice to see another alum! :hi:

[Brewman_Jax]

16. That's a rude comment

Are you suggesting that black greek organizations engage in discrimination? Don't forget that they had to form their own organizations because they weren't welcome to join the pre-existing (white) organizations.

[Hosnon]

18. Not suggesting that at all. However, if discrimination is not allowed at all, there has

got to be a legitimate reason for predominantly African-American fraternities/sororities to exist.

If I were to bet, I'd say that there can't be discrimination as to who can apply. After that, it may not be allowed but there is de facto discrimination.

[Brewman_Jax]

23. The same question

can be put to the predominately white organizations.

[Hosnon]

25. I agree. Frats/Sororities discriminate - and it seems like it is legal. My question is:

Why can't the Christians just model that?

I see where you're going...why did I specifically single out African-American frats/sororities? Perhaps it illustates the point better because UGA is about 95% white so, to me, the African-American frats/sororities must have found some way to to stay predominantly African-American.

[Maddy McCall]

26. And the answer is:

(at least partially) The Christian legal organization that is representing the students can use this case to solicit funds from their supporters. National attention = beaucoup bucks.

According to Hank Jr:

"God bless you all but most of all, send your money."

:D

[Brewman_Jax]

44. It's a question of numbers

having gone to Ga. Tech, which, like UGA, is about 6% black at the undergrad level. At Tech, there are 30 greek organizations, of which 5 are black. Out of roughly 11,500 undergrads, 6% of that is 690. I don't have the actual total count of the members of all greek organizations, but, for the sake of illustration, let's say that 10% of undergrads are members of greek organizations. Out of 1150 total members, only 69 are members of black greek organizations. Rather than ask how the black organizations stay majority black, the better question is why couldn't that small number have been folded into the existing organizations?

Like I answered in a previous post, white students aren't lining up to join majority black greek organizations.

[Hosnon]

46. Yeah I agree. My point is that there is some way, which I think is obvious to

all of us, that fraternities and sororities get around discrimination. We all see Caucasian, African-American, Jewish, etc. organizations on college campuses.

Whatever method is being used with regard to race, why can't the Christians adopt it and use it with regard to religion, thereby creating a de fact Christian fraternity?

Edit: The Jewish example is particularly interesting because it involves both race and religion.

[ComerPerro]

27. apples and oranges, though

see, Christians are pretty much never discriminated against in this country. They are just trying to single themselves out to be exclusive.

[Hosnon]

28. It doesn't make a difference if a race/religion/creed is discriminated against

nationwide.

If the organizations can't discriminate based on race or religion, it doesn't matter how discriminated against a particular race or religion is on the national stage.

I'm sure it is just as illegal for an African-American Fraternity to prohibit a Caucasion from applying as it is for a Christian Fraternity to prohibit a Jew from applying.

Bottom line: The requirement seems to be circumvented in practice. However that is done is how the Christians should do it.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hosnon]

30. Wow...so much for elevated discourse. I do see the difference in the

discrimination between the two groups. One experiences practically zero today.

However, that is not very relevant to the law. A particular Caucasian Christian gets the benefits of non-discrimination even though Caucasian Christians are not discriminated against in general nationwide to a large degree.

Do you suggest we start with some Discrimination Formula to determine how much protection a particular person receives under the law?

[ComerPerro]

32. Like I said, I'm done. If I want to hear this apologist bullshit for racism,

I'll go visit my family

[Maddy McCall]

35. What the hell are you talking about?

This discussion has been about the law, and how other groups abide by the law while maintaining the spirit of their organization.

None of this is racism.

Good lord. You win the "overreaction of the day" award.

[Hosnon]

36. Not quite sure who is apologizing for racism but have a good day.

I suggest a bit more civility if you intend on persuading anyone of anything.

[Maddy McCall]

38. And maybe actually READING the discussion instead of....

seeing "black" and asserting "RACIST!"

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

85. I agree with your argument

it seems that some of the infantile minds in here want their cake and eat it too. I see this with many groups who have been discriminated in the past and may still be. They often want it both ways, where they can discriminate but God forbid anyone do it to them.... A slant to any end of the spectrum is not a good move and using "victimhood" status to achieve that is spitting in the face of all who have struggled.

The Christian groups simply have to find a way around it. And believe me, I am not a fan of christian groups, but I am a fan of equality.

[Hosnon]

88. Thanks. I'm most definitely not a Christian. I'm viewing this as such:

Group x formed Fraternity X. It is illegal for any fraternity to discriminate. However, Fraternity X is composed of only members of Group x. I assume this is legal because it happens all the time.

Group y wants to form Fraternity Y.

What principle allowed Group x to form Fraternity X?

Legally, Group y should be allowed to use that principle as well.

That is my entire point in this thread.:)

[BoneDaddy]

104. That is exactly the way I looked at it

as I am no fan of the fundamental Christian groups out there. But in my perfect world, their views, no matter how I may disagree still have my support to exist.

Kinda like the ACLU defending the KLan. We cannot have free speech just for the views that we happen to agree with.

[Maddy McCall]

31. Wow. That's instructive.

:eyes:

If you can't contribute, attack.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

37. Who the hell said that black fraternities shouldn't be allowed?

Maybe if you'd actually READ before you experience your hysteria, you'd see that there was NO SUCH THiNG suggested.

Damn. Chill out.

[ComerPerro]

53. he did when he said they practiced discrimation

[Maddy McCall]

59. All frats and soros practice discrimination. It;'s really no secret that they do.

If they didn't, then there'd be no such thing as Rush, and every person who applied would be accepted to every organization.

No one is impugning black soros and frats any more than they are impugning white ones. The basis of "belonging" to these groups is that they are exclusionary.

[ComerPerro]

61. if that's the case, why is his post even relevant in the first place then?

[Maddy McCall]

63. That is the case. I'm trying to figure out how you worked yourself up to be offended.

[ComerPerro]

64. I've said many times. The poster tries to equate a bunch of spoiled Christians

with hisotric black organizations.

Just a bit of difference, doncha think?

[Maddy McCall]

68. See...the poster did not do that. Your reading comprehension really sucks.

Maybe you should spend a little time re-reading the posts above.

They are about the CONSTITUTIONALITY OF EXCLUSION on the basis or race, religion, creed, sex, or national origin.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I really can't fathom anyone innocently being as hardheaded as you are being in this thread.

[ComerPerro]

71. How does it work with African-American greek societies? Seems these Christians should just

model themselves after that.

Does anyone know? Are they technically open to anyone but only African-Americans apply and get accepted in reality?





See, the poster clearly DID do that. Your reading comprehension really sucks.

Maybe you should spend a little time re-reading the posts above.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I really can't fathom anyone innocently being as hardheaded as you are being in this thread.

[Hosnon]

73. No I don't try to do that.

I am trying to figure out how, since discrimination is prohibited, we have all of these predominantly Caucasian, African-American, Jewish, etc. fraternities and sororities.

There must be some legal way that this occurs.

I was trying to find out what that legal way was in order to suggest that the Christians simply use that way to form their own, legally exclusive, fraternity or sorority.

[ComerPerro]

74. and so therefore you are trying to equate these Christians with black organizations

[Hosnon]

78. No, I'm not. At least no more than to the extent that they are organizations of

a public school which must follow Constitutional guidelines.

That is what we are trying to get across here. Take African-American out of it and use Asian or Jewish or Caucasian or Hispanic. Organizations formed by these groups cannot discriminate based on race - that is the law. However, we all know that almost-exclusive organizations are indeed formed by these groups.

If it is illegal, how is it possible?

Upon answering that question (How is it possible?), I suggested applying the solution to the Christian situation.

[ComerPerro]

80. and you're still doing it. God damn you are stubborn

[Hosnon]

82. If you would like to discuss why anti-discrimination laws should not be applied

equally, be my guest.

However, that is not what I am talking about or have been talking about on this thread.

We must agree to discuss the same thing or we will get nowhere. You responded to my posts so I think the presumption is that the topic of my post is what should be discussed in its sub-threads (and I will post accordingly).

Again, start a sub-thread somewhere if you do not wish to discuss what I do.

[DuaneBidoux]

76. No difference when it comes to granting rights (you know, to everyone?)

[ComerPerro]

77. you can't see the difference between a historically oppressed group

and a group that is actively seeking to exclude others?

[DuaneBidoux]

107. No, there is a difference. One is fair, one is not. One is moral, the other is not.

But freedom is not guaranteed just to the moral and fair. It is guaranteed to all.

[Hosnon]

69. I can see where you got that.

I think the difference is between de jure (by law) discrimination and de facto (by practice) discrimination.

Any public school fraternity/sorority that discriminates de jure, i.e., by their charter, on the basis of race, religion, etc. should be prohibited.

However, I don't think, and I don't think it is the law, that such organizations can't discriminate de facto on those bases. And experience has taught us all that such discrimination occurs and, in fact, thrives.

I can see where you got that I thought African-American fraternities/sororities should be banned because I said that they obviously discriminate (to try to figure out why Christians couldn't discriminate in the same way).

However, the distinction between the two forms of discrimination was quickly made here and by myself.

[ComerPerro]

72. Here's the thing though: I've heard this argument before

from The College Republicans.

They are always pressing issues like this.

Affirmative action bake sales, white-only scholarships...



EDIT: If you wonder why I got defensive, THATS why

[Hosnon]

84. I don't understand what you mean here.

How does the difference between de jure discrimination and de facto discrimination by fraternities and sororities relate to affirmative action bake sales and white-only scholarships?

[Hosnon]

39. Huh? Nothing of the sort was suggested.

:wtf:

[Maddy McCall]

41. ...

Someone didn't take his crazy pills today.

Jeesh.

[Hosnon]

42. Well...regardless Maddy...I think we've figured this out:

It's either about making a federal case out of it or, if they legitimately want to be an organization, they should either organize free of the school or with the school but allow anyone to apply - in which case they can, I assume, weed people out in the same manner that all others do (when I was there, UGA had African-American, Jewish, White, etc. fraternities and sororities).

On a side note...when are we going to get together? I'm in Jackson.

[Maddy McCall]

45. Cool!

There are a BUNCH of DUers in the Jackson area. Dbake, rowdyboy, shellbeau, you.

We REALLY need a meetup! I've been promising rowdy that I'd have coffee with him next time I drive through on the way to the Golden Moon, but I just haven't been up that way lately.

:hi:

[Hosnon]

47. I vote for Hal and Mal's. They hosted the 2004 debates and the room was

predominantly pro-Kerry.

[Maddy McCall]

49. I love Hal and Mals!

Absolutely. Maybe after the holidays we can throw something together. :D

[Hosnon]

58. Perhaps a celebration the day the House and Senate are turned over? nt

[Maddy McCall]

62. Depends of the day of the week...and whether or not I'm teaching...

but I'd probably go for that. :D

[Maddy McCall]

19. That is not what was being suggested.

The poster was merely asking if this Christian fraternity could use the same methods that black fraternities use to stay majority black, instead of forcing it through the courts.

[Brewman_Jax]

22. What methods?

being majority black is usually enough. In my time in college, I've heard only one white guy express any interest in joining a black fraternity.

Contrary to popular belief, there aren't a lot of white students lining up to join black greek organizations. At least I've never seen it.

[Maddy McCall]

24. And you answered your own question.

[Brewman_Jax]

48. Why are you insinuating

that there's some underhanded method that they use to stay majority black? As if suddenly a bunch of white students can't get into black greek organizations. I've never seen them WANT to join. That's all there is to it.

[Hosnon]

51. I don't think she is insinuating that. Perhaps there are zero

Caucasians that want to join African-American organizations - that doesn't seem to matter much.

What matters is that legally they can't prohibit the application by Caucasians. It just so happens that reality doesn't require enforcement of that very often.

However, I'm not convinced that African-American or Caucasian fraternities and sororities don't make some kind of subconscious, or otherwise, effort to discourage applications by other races.

[Maddy McCall]

57. All frats and soros do.

Or they wouldn't be frats and soros. :D

[Maddy McCall]

52. Where did I assume that?

I've said no such thing.
Most likely, black soros and frats stay majority black because either:

1) Whites don't apply, or

2) If whites were to apply, the soro/frat could find reasons to exclude.

Common sense leads to that conclusion, since, if the orgs receive federal funds (and they do, because all students pay student activity fees to fund these orgs), they cannot exclude people on the basis of race. Therefore, they stay majority--if not monolithically--black, through either 1 or 2 above.

Can you think of an alternative explanation??

[Brewman_Jax]

83. I'd say option #1

but I find it telling that you and the above poster seem to have no problem with the vast majority 95% but instead latch onto the minority 5% that had to form their own organizations because they weren't welcome.

When was the last time you saw a white student pledge a black greek organization? I've never seen it.

[Hosnon]

87. I point that out in post #25.

Again, I most likely used the African-American example because of my experience at UGA where there were so few African-Americans.

All races do this...the question is, how is it legal? And if it is somehow legal, why can't the Christians employ that same method to legitimately form a Christian fraternity?

[Brewman_Jax]

89. Since we're doing the tag team

I'll say it again--that's a poor example to use when they're only 5% of the undergrad population. Why aren't you picking on the vast 95%?

[Hosnon]

91. I'm not picking on anyone. We can just as easily subsitute the words

"African-American" for "Caucasian" in all of the above and the point is still of interest to me.

Edit: See my post #88.

[Brewman_Jax]

105. But you started with "African-American"

which is why this whole started, as if they've been cutting out that big group of white students that wanted to join of this time. We know that's not true. Since whites and christians aren't regularly discriminated against, that's not only false to simply "switch terms", but very disingenuous.

[Hosnon]

106. It was the first example that came to mind. In retrospect, "Jewish" would have

been more relevant as the issue involves religion.

But it doesn't make a difference if a group is regularly discriminated against. Equal protection is equal protection. There can be no discrimination based on race or religion...period. Not: There can be discrimination based on race/religion when it involves a group that is not regularly discriminated against.

Regardless of the reasons behind the formation of a particular fraternity/sorority there can be no discrimination.

[verse18]

86. I'm a member of a traditionally Black sorority

and I pledged at a southern university. We do not discriminate against anyone who wants to pledge our organization. It' true that are not many White people are breaking down the door to join Black frat/soro, but if you fit the very strict criteria our organization sets forth, you will be invited to join no matter your race or religion.

My particular sorority was "Founded on Christian Principles" but you don't have to be Christian. Religious believe is not one of the previously mentioned criteria. We've had Muslims and a future atheist (me :)) pledge through our undergraduate chapter.

[Hosnon]

92. Thanks for the input.

Is discrimination prohibited in just the application process or the whole process?

Also, if Fraternity/Sorority X wanted to keep out members of a different race, could it do so legally? If so, how?

That is my main question because it seems that most of the Fraternities/Sororities are exclusively of one race. Obviously it would be illegal to have that in the charter so how is it accomplished? (I'm guessing it's done differently depending on the group: lack of interest by other groups, ad hoc justification for denial, etc.)

[verse18]

98. Discrimination is not allowed at all.

Anyone interested in joining our organization, be they Black or not, has to meet specific criteria set by our national executive committee and the local chapter. This includes academics, letters of recommendation, history of community service, etc. If you don't meet all the criteria, you will not be invited to join and that's with anyone.

I can't speak for other Black greek organizations, but we do not actively try to keep anyone out, that is against the law and against our principles. With us, we have to make justifications for everyone we approve or disapprove to our national board. If we disapproved someone who met all the criteria but was not Black, we would have lots of explaining to do to our national board and they would ask us to reconsider the applicant. However, the final decision is ours, but if things aren't on the up and up with our selection process, we would be subject to heavy scrutiny with possibly suspensions.

The only reason why most traditionally Black greek organizations are still majority Black is because most White people don't want to join it. Like stated above, Black frat/soro were created because we weren't allowed in the White groups. I would suspect that White people in general don't have an understanding of the history of traditionally Black organizations and the marginalization and exclusion of Black students on White campuses and why Black greek letter organizations were very important at the time.

[Hosnon]

100. Thanks. I make the distinction in this thread (somewhere) between

de jure discrimination and de facto discrimination.

The former is most certainly illegal but I'm not so sure about the latter because we see fraternities/sororities divided along racial lines all over the country.

However, your post points out that the two types of discrimination are extremes on a spectrum with an infinite number of variations in between. In other words, in certain circumstances, "de facto" discrimination is definitely illegal. When that occurs depends on the particular circumstances. Ex.: When Sorority X (100% Caucasian) receives 40% of its applications from African-Americans but remains exclusively Caucasian. Each applicant may be denied for a "legitimate" reason but, at some point, the pattern reveals an underlying policy.

Now, in some cases, a fraternity/sorority will receive zero applications from other races. However, a similar situation may exist as with the example above. Even if the fraternity or sorority does not expressly state that only a certain race can apply, the fact that such fraternity or sorority is composed of a single race can be received by the possible applicant pool as an implicit policy. This type of "de facto" discrimination would be more difficult to prove - though perhaps no less discriminatory.

In any event, de facto discrimination does occur (in one form or another) and we see it all over. If the true intention of the Christian group is to form a Christian fraternity/sorority, it can be done. The method by which they do so would determine whether or not it would be challenged and whether or not discrimination based on religion could be proved.

It is an interesting subject to say the least. Thanks for the input.:)

[AspenRose]

101. Also add that there are some very high-profile whites who are members

of black greek organizations.

Eleanor Roosevelt - Alpha Kappa Alpha. Hillary Clinton was asked to join but declined because to join a "Divine Nine" sorority means you do so at the exclusion of all others, and Hillary didn't want to do that.

Lindy Boggs - Sigma Gamma Rho. Japanese artist Chizu Shindo Suzuki is also a member of this organization.

It's more likely there aren't more non-black members because (for whatever reason) they don't wish to join, and not because they are being discriminated against. Divine Nine organizations are steeped in historical struggle and cultural history that takes a special person to appreciate, regardless of their race.

Ironically, Condi Rice is a member of a 'white' sorority: Alpha Chi Omega.

[bluestateguy]

2. They are welcome to go off campus

And if they do, I will support their right to be exclusive. But as a chapter of a public state university, state recognition of their charter would imply state recognition of a particular religion.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. This one makes my head hurt

[Maddy McCall]

4. Most campuses have Catholic, Weseley, and BSU organizations

those are funded privately by Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists.

Student activity funds should NOT go to promote any religion...that's the responsibility of the denomination that the group represents.

[Hosnon]

10. It seems pretty basic to me. It's just like prayer in school. Pray/organize ALL day long

at school/on campus - just don't expect the school to make it official.

They have two options:

1) Form the UGA Christian Fraternity (XXX - whatever three symbols they want) and exist outside of the official greek order, or

2) Form the UGA Christian Fraternity and let anyone apply. Seems to me that "fundamental religious difference" is just as good a reason (and probably a better reason) to deny an application than "general noncompatibility" is.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Something tells me that this is more about being a USSC test case...

than really trying to get this group accepted on campus.

Your first solution is perfectly rational. They don't want that, though. That's what makes me think that this is meant to be nothing more than a SC test case.

[Hosnon]

13. That may be. What don't people get about public dollars not funding

religious groups?

[Maddy McCall]

15. I think, as the courts have become more conservative under this administration....

these folks want to re-test cases that have been tested before, hoping that the higher courts will hear them again.

Aren't these the same people who scream about frivolous law suits?

:eyes:


I guess it's not frivolous if it involved the work of the Lord. :shrug:


(And I am a Christian, but not one of these "Christians.")

[Hosnon]

17. I guess...but it's not like the Court's composition has dramatically shifted.

Who know...I just hope someone forms the Satanic Fraternity if these guys succeed!

[Richard Steele]

5. So, refusing to support religious dicrimination equals...religious discrimination?

These people make me sick. Their whining, childish, selfish
twisted logic ALWAYS adds up to: "Give us what we want".
No more, no less.

Fuck 'em, says I. Fuck 'em in their shrivelled little HEARTS.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. poor oppressed majority.

:eyes:

[eppur_se_muova]

9. You mean the University System of Georgia isn't a religious institution?

I taught at two of their smaller campuses, and you could have fooled me. There are more student Christian organizations on campus than any other type. Most had the decency to place their actual buildings across the street from University property. But I don't think the separation of church and state was much observed.

[Hosnon]

11. Not sure about the University System as a whole but UGA in particular

(my alma mater) was extremely diverse and quite proud of that fact.

There were religious groups but then again, there were TONS of groups to choose from. Clubs, organizations, etc. are different from Frats/Sororities (I think).

[Maddy McCall]

14. Most southern public universities are very diverse...

as diverse as any other institution in the US.

Yeah, we have lots of clubs and societies, too. But student activity fees don't pay for religious ones.

[LTR]

20. As a fraternity member back in college...

...I can attest that at least the majority of Greek organizations do at least have some foundation in Christianity, though they are not 'religious' organizations (my fraternity is Sigma Nu).

And there are many student organizations recognized on many campuses. Fellowship of Christian Athletes ring a bell?

[Maddy McCall]

21. Any group that receives student activity funds cannot exclude on the basis or...

race, religion, creed, or national origin.

That's what this proposed fraternity wishes to do.

[ccorces1]

33. Public School = Public Frat

At a public school, a greek organization that is recognized should be technically open to all. De Facto Discrimination does take place, but it seems that it's just not spoken of. If the frat wants to go underground and be funded by their relgiious group and become a private organization then, yes, I think it is perfectly acceptable for them to openly only open themselves to those that share their beliefs.

[Maddy McCall]

40. Welcome to DU, ccorces1

:hi:

It gets a little insane sometimes, but hold on, and you'll enjoy it.

:toast:

[Tyo]

43. It is possible to get through the day without discriminating against the Fundies?

For them everything they do, want to do, or have even thought about doing is covered by their right to religious expression.

[BoneDaddy]

50. Are black fraternaties

required to allow whites, latinos or asians into their fold? I don't know the answer to that one....but if frats are allowed to discriminate based upon ethnicity, I would imagine they would be allowed to do so based upon religion.

[Hosnon]

55. We're discussing this upthread if you're interested. nt.

[BoneDaddy]

67. K...thanks

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

81. Is everyone who doesn't agree with you a racist?

Arrogant, I may be.

Racist, definitely not.

[BoneDaddy]

66. Sorry

you think that but aren't we looking for consistency? I fully support black fraternaties, so why are they not allowed to have Christian fraternaties, or Jewish frats, or Buddhist or Pagan frats.

Don't be so judgemental and reactionary. Are we not looking for balance?

[ComerPerro]

75. Because they are completely different things, created for different reasons

EDIT: Same reason you don't see White-only frats

[Hosnon]

90. I think I see your point now. However, the law doesn't protect based on

reasons for discrimination.

It simply protects against discrimination, regardless of the reasons.

[ComerPerro]

95. yeah but there are two different types that I don't think a Christian group can apply for

they can try it, but it won't hold up without a good lawyer

[Hosnon]

96. Two different types of what? Discrimination?

There are an infinite number of ways to discriminate.

I could point out the Jewish Fraternity on UGA's campus - it's right by the dorms (or was). Now, how are they legal? However it is that they are legal, that is the way that the Christians need to go about this.

[ComerPerro]

97. two purposes for so-called discrimination

one poster in this thread said it best when they mentioned that some of these "discriminatory" groups were formed because, for example, blacks were not allowed, so they had to make their own.

However, in a case like this, we have not an oppressed group trying to have something that other groups already have, but instead a bunch of spoiled kids who are seeking to exclude.

[Hosnon]

99. Oh ok. But, the law doesn't look at the purpose behind the discrimination. It

looks at the mere fact that there is discrimination.

My point is perhaps better illustrated by the existence of Jewish fraternities.

[BoneDaddy]

103. I agree

that the intention behind them were for different reasons, but I don't think that is the way it translates in reality.

[mitchum]

54. "Wow, I didn't know that Paul dotted his "i" s with little...

smiley faces!"
Just what in the hell do they mean by "without error in the original manuscripts"?
Where are these original manuscripts?

Onward, christan whiners

[dethl]

70. Sure they can be a frat....but not a recognized one...

Most colleges say that membership should be open to all if the organization in question is represented by said college. Otherwise you can do anything you want but you're not "official".

When I went to New Mexico Tech, and I was a senator on the finance committee, we had a Christian organization that required officers (and members too...I'm not too sure) to be Christians. I found out in our lawbooks that since they recieved no funding from the college they can do whatever they please.

I'm willing to bet that the case will be dropped with the recommendation that the frat either opens applications to everyone or they will not get a college charter and funding.

[depakid]

93. More special rights for so called Christians

First, the win the right to harrass and verbally abuse gays and lesbians- now they're filing suit to be allowed to discriminate and other who don't share their narrow minded views.

What a nightmare the University of Georgia must be.

[Bridget Burke]

94. Another PR maneuver by The Alliance Defense Fund!

From PFAW:

Founded by a group of high-profile Religious Right leaders such as D. James Kennedy and James Dobson, the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) sees itself as a counter to the ACLU. As a legal group, it assists and augments the efforts of other right-wing groups to “keep the door open for the spread of the Gospel.” The ADF has been active on issues including pushing “marriage protection,” exposing the “homosexual agenda” and fighting the supposed “war on Christmas.”

www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4457

This is more than a group of students, wanting to "foster fellowship through their common belief in Jesus Christ."

I could add a link to the Alliance Defense Fund, but PFAW has one.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

102. The issue is that they let the Ba'hai do it, as far as I can tell.

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/hall/newfullstory.asp?ID=109522http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/hall/newfullstory.asp?ID=109522

Claims that the Ba'hai organisation only allows members of the Ba'hai faith to join, and that there's another Christian-only registered group.

If that's the case, something is clearly wrong.