If the ISG was reality based

[Timbuk3]

"Success" is not defined. This needs to be done before we can even talk about "success" in Iraq, much less hope to achieve it.

If "success" is defined as "Hussein has been captured and sentenced to die" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Uday and Qusay are dead" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Iraq has no (more) weapons of mass destruction" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Iraq is not pursuing nuke-ya-ler weapons" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Iraq has held elections and has a democratically elected government" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Democracy can be messy" we can bring the troops home today.

If "success" is defined as "Iraq is a pro-western Democracy that is happy to host our military bases and help us track down terrorists" we can bring the troops home today, because that ain't NEVER gonna happen.

If "success" is defined as "The American people have learned, again, that their government will lie them into war by giving them reasons that have NOTHING to do with why those in power actually want a war" we can bring the troops home today, because that ain't NEVER gonna happen.

If "success" is defined as "You broke it, it's up to you to fix it", or better yet "President Bush has caused the eruption of ethnic cleansing and civil war that Hussein had to use EXTREME means to keep in check" we ain't never gonna be bringing the troops home.

Here's the reeality, folks. Hussein was a major league asshole dictator BECAUSE HE HAD TO BE to keep the majority Shia, people who SYMPATHIZE WITH bin Laden, al Qaida, and Hezbollah, from slaughtering the Sunnis who supported him.

There will be no "success" in Iraq, at least not a "success" that the American people would have supported before the invasion. Our choice has become simple. Abandon the Iraqis, and especially the Sunni, to genocide, civil war and violence, or be prepared to come between two warring factions from each other for years, probably decades. You wanted Democracy? You'll get it, eventually, but a lot of people are gonna die, and we won't like the "democracy" that results.

It wouldn't hurt to define "failure", either. I'd define it this way: "The people and politicians who supported this ill-advised, grossly mismanaged, and unjust war are embarrassed." BTW, this would embarrass every member of the ISG, none of whom were opposed to the war in the beginning. It's not a "failure" for the American people to realize that we aren't, and will never be, "invincible." We lost this war within weeks of invasion, we're just slow to admit it. It would also be a "failure" for the "I'm not gonna pay my taxes" crowd if we were to pass a new tax to pay for it instead of passing the costs on to our kids and grand-kids.

Stop killing our soldiers to protect "the good names" of politicians who deserve nothing but contempt.

[ClassWarrior]

1. It's more "Stall The Withdrawal."

NGU.

[Timbuk3]

2. That's the way I see it

The ISG isn't calling for withdrawal, they're calling for a conditional drawback to 70,000 "when conditions warrant it."

It's too bad Bush never read the story about Pandora's box when he was a kid.

(BTW, the ISG *did* make some good points. Talking to your enemies, for example. That's not rocket science, but it's WAY over the head of the boy king. He won't do it.)