News alert! Hillary to study video game violence.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

"the iminent danger posed by video game violence threatens our very society"

News alert! Hillary to study the dangers of untied shoe laces. "With extra long sneaker shoe laces, the potential for tripping is drastically increased. WE need to halt this danger to American youth immediately"

News alert! Hillary to study the dangers that gum wrappers pose to left handed Christians. "It is disgraceful and unAmerican that today's gum wrappers were designed by secular right-handed bigots. There is no place for secular designers in our country.We must protect the left handed, especially the Christian left-handed, so no more gum wrapper injuries befall them"

News alert! Hillary to work on legislation deleting the separation of church and state."It is time that we recognized that our founding fathers wanted all of us to be Christian. This artificial separation of church and state is dividing our country. The best way to bring this country together, is to remove that separation."

News alert! HIllary to hire the Iraq Study Group to advise congress as to what their real jobs are! "We have been seriously hampered in doing our jobs - mainly because as Representative Hamilton noted, we don't know what we are doing. Therefore, I call on the ISG to study this issue and to issue a report on what our jobs really entail. If, for example, they manage to give us a smorgasborg of 72 jobs that could be conceivably handled by us, we can then debate each one and see if it suits our needs."

News alert! Hillary creating study group to learn how best to pander to the religious right. "We cannot afford failed ideas, like those posed by Barrack Obama, while our nation is in such dire straits."

Ms. Clinton - you do realize that there are some real issues facing our country, don't you?

[Beelzebud]

1. A lot of voters play video games....

[FormerDittoHead]

32. Average game player age: 33.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php

(excerpts)

Who Purchases Computer and Video Games?
* Ninety-three percent of people who make the actual purchase of computer games and 83% of people who make the actual purchase of video games are 18 years of age or older. The average age of the game buyer is 40 years old.

[MattSh]

121. We've seen a lot of cooked data coming out of DC....

for the last 3 decades, and this reeks of cooked data. But what would you expect from the "Entertainment Software Association"? Maybe just another special interest group, don't you think? It wouldn't be good for their business for them to report otherwise, now would it? There may be some truth here, and there may not. But one should always be skeptical of ANY industry promoting their own wholesomeness.

Monsanto and McDonalds promote their wholesomeness too. Don't mean it's true, though.

[FormerDittoHead]

141. I'm skeptical as well... of Hillary's motives... n/t

[rfranklin]

2. Tipper Gore redux...remember how music was the devil?

She's a politician, alright. Going for the yahoo votes and the media coverage.

[hedgehog]

8. To be fair, Tipper never wanted to ban any music,

she just wanted it labeled so parents would know what their kids were listening to. I can understand a parent not wanting to actually listen to the stuff. I find a lot of music these days just plain boring.

[petgoat]

40. She just wanted it labelled so local communities could ban it nt

[uncle ray]

49. that was one issue that affected my vote in 2000

NO i didn't vote for *! i voted green.(the state i lived in at the time went blue FYI) to young voters, it was an issue that fueled the "both parties are the same" rhetoric.

[Kolesar]

3. salon.com was busting on Hillary on this yesterday..And quite rightly so! ... eom

[Cha]

259. I looked but I couldn't

locate it..I wanted to see what they had to say. I know how I feel about it.

[Kolesar]

281. We've all got our priorities

We've all got our priorities
Say what you will about the president's press conference today; at least it focused on the war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman will be holding a press conference in a few minutes to discuss . . . violence in video games.

-- Tim Grieve
<14:56 EST, Dec. 7, 2006>

The link takes you to Arianna herself at Huffington Post.

[Cha]

292. Thanks! Oh, the bushites

love her..changing the subject which bush can't even change..no wonder the corporatemediawhores are pushing hill and pushed lieman..among OTHER REASONS.

So "tone deaf".

[Kolesar]

293. Most Dem candidates for Pres have Hillary backed into a corner on the Iraq War Resolution

By the way, that was in www.salon.com 's "War Room" http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

[Cha]

294. Ah, "The War Room"..no

wonder I didn't find it. hill and lieman can't talk about Iraq cause they chose the wrong side. I guess they could say, "Stay the course, send in more troops to die and be maimed".

[UndertheOcean]

4. For the life of me I don't get why simulated murder (some video games) is ok

while simulated rape , pedophilia , is unthinkable.

I guess desensitizing us to murder and killing evil protagonists benefits the military.

[wtmusic]

10. BIzarre, isn't it?

At least them murderers ain't PERVERTS! :crazy:

[MilesColtrane]

27. Kids were "simulating murder" long before video games came along.

It was called "playing army men".

[WinkyDink]

249. I wonder, then, why 33 is the average age for these "games".

[sniffa]

5. i wonder if this wiLL incLude

the video games used to market our armed forces?

ps: :rofl: k&r

[UndertheOcean]

6. When I saw that my jaws just droppedwide open..

that was quite despicable.

[Lerkfish]

11. which part is "despicable"? that the armed forces uses violent video games,

or that someone points it out?

[UndertheOcean]

12. the use of violent video games ofcourse.

n/t

[Solon]

208. Actually, America's Army is a classic example of marketing gone wrong...

It was supposed to be a recruiting tool, really, but instead, people are like FREE GAME!!!!! And downloaded it by the millions, yet almost no one has signed up to join the Army because of it, in fact the Military at large is suffering from recruiting shortfalls.

[kiahzero]

23. Oh, please.

:eyes:

[mdmc]

7. Thank God

Finally, leadership we deserve:patriot:

[Canuckistanian]

29. Yes, what political heroism!

She doesn't stick a finger in the air when she decides to tackle a problem, she goes full-steam ahead.

Even though she knows she's forever lost the violent video games demographic.

A profile in courage, indeed.

[Alamom]

9. I wonder what the other 51 are doing . There's so much CRAP

posted about Senator Clinton, there's very little room for anything else. :*







Mods....we may need a "HATE CLINTON FORUM"
I know this would "kind of" be against the rules, but it's happening more and more anyway and getting incredibly vicious.


There's a lot of hate for both (Bill & Hillary) even though Bill is no longer in politics and may have been one of the best presidents we ever had & I believe The Senator is well liked in NY for some reason due to the reports I read?????

If this continues, GD may turn into "A Hate Clinton Forum" & I really think that's so tacky for new people & lurkers to see that we have begun to devour our own.


TIA



edgr

[ChairmanAgnostic]

15. hey, she sets her own agenda. Commenting on it is not an attack, per se.

she is the one who asked Baker what congress' role should be. She is the one who held a news conference on video violence. in a week where 11 troops were wasted unnecessarily in one day, where papa bush's top attack dog and deal maker issues a report that chastizes Boy George on every single conceivable issue related to Iraq, and when Boy George responds in the most petulant fashion imaginable, I think it is noteworthy that Hillary wants to concentrate on

video games.

That tells me either she is getting bad advice from Rahm and Co., or that she is so cemented to her presidential planning program that reality dares not intrude. Her timing smacks of a total lack of sense. Even if video violence is a hot issue, I still think that this timing is absolutely inane.

(OK, the first week of December, make your conservative issue public. Call for video game violence to be regulated. That will win over the soccer moms and religious folk. Next week, be filmed going to a conservative church and repeat the video issue with the pastor. We will find one for you by Thursday next. We have contacted the media and they will be there in front of the church. Then the last week before x-mas,, get on TV and warn parents about violent videos before x-mas shopping. And REMEMBER, NEVER SAY HAPPY HOLIDAYS! )

[JNelson6563]

22. You're kidding right?

With all that is going on Hillary decides to show some real leadership....on video games.

You take issue with those who think that's laughable from one who aspires to lead our nation?

Wow.

Julie

[femrap]

70. I believe Hillary is looking at how our culture

encourages violence...and how we desensitize our kids to it.

Here's a song you may like:

Buy War Toys for Christmas
words and music by Roy Zimmerman and Melanie Harby
© 1990 Watunes (BMI) Motaters Music (ASCAP)
(From "PeaceNick")

Little Johnny Johnson wants an M-16
Sister Susie wants an Uzi and a submachine
Kids are making wishes and wartime strategies
Singing, "Happy, happy birthday to the Prince of Peace"

Buy war toys for Christmas, have a happy holiday
Santa traded in his red cap for a green beret
Teach those happy little children to be hellcats when they play
And have a very merry, military day

Janie wants the latest deadly laser gun
Little Tommy asked his mommy for his own B-1
Kids are dropping napalm on their Christmas trees
Singing, "Happy, happy birthday to the Prince of Peace"

Buy war toys for Christmas have a happy holiday
Santa knows the missile toes the line in every way
Teach those happy little children to be hellcats when they play
And have a very merry, military day

We've all got our fingers crossed for another Cold War frost
Singing, "Oh by golly, let's be jolly, deck the holly-caust"

[JNelson6563]

131. Well that's certainly at the top of my list! Not.

But then again I am not pandering for the fundy vote now am I?

Julie

[femrap]

170. So you're pro-violence?

You want your boys and girls to grow up and become warriors?

All I'm saying is that our culture has become more and more violent. And it seems to bleed into our everyday life...road rage, for example.

You know something, people who truly take the lessons of the Prince of Peace to heart don't see how these videos make the world or its people more evolved or enlightened.

Maybe you are a lucky person and have not yet encountered violence to touch your life personally.

Good luck.

[JNelson6563]

194. Newflash!!

Violence has been around since the dawn of time. It did not suddenly occur with the advent of violent video games. We are regressing on so many levels and violence is just one of those levels. If there wasn't an appetite for violence the games wouldn't sell. Your reference to the Prince of Peace reminds me of the bible. I am hard pressed to think of a finer, or older for that matter, example of heinous violence. Graphic detail and everything.

Which is worse? Violent video games or violence sanctioned/encouraged/ordered by bible-god?

Like I said it's been with us from the beginning, it will always be with us. With all the real world violence going on, much of it at thanks to our government, I hardly think taking a stand against video games is an effective way to put a stop to it. A real leader would look for ways to end the carnage in Iraq and maybe do a little something about the genocide in Darfur. But that can be risky when setting up a run for the WH.

As to my personal view of the games, the worst ones have never been allowed in my house and it's been as simple as that.

Lastly, do not put words in my mouth to bolster your argument and do not ASS-U-ME to know anything about my personal life. I'm not pro-violence but I'm not simplistic enough to think it's video games that are to blame for our violent society. I know all about violence first hand as I grew up in a very abusive home--before there was any such thing as video games.

Julie

[Solon]

199. Our culture is no more violent than anyone elses...

Nor is it the most violent in history. Kids used to be able to watch LIVE executions in this country, back when public hangings occurred, hell, back in their respective "old countries" they were able to watch beheadings and the drawing and quartering of criminals. For some reason, the human race survived, and actually, civilization has actually evolved since then, now, the death penalty is banned in most industrialized nations, and those that still commit that punishment, do it in the most isolated of instances. Nowadays, people are disgusted by displays people used to cheer in the past, this is progress.

Neither video games, nor any other media will change this, simply because EVERYONE seems to sell each other short, for some reason, one subset of society thinks another subset can't tell fantasy from reality, mostly because of rare instances of violence that do occur use video games as a scapegoat.

[WinkyDink]

250. Except for that "shock and awe" thing. And being the only nation ever to nuke

civilians (let alone soldiers).

[Mythsaje]

265. Probably because we thought of it first...

and it scared the crap out of everyone else...

[mongo]

288. Lets ban all expressions of violence in our society

We can start with the SCUM manifesto -- except you were posting and advocating it's disemination in another thread....

Does that make you more evolved or enlightened?

or just a hypocrit?

[PVnRT]

81. You're right. We should NEVER SAY ANYTHING BAD

about the Clintons. I mean, that's just wrong. We should be bashing those batfuck insane LEEEBRULS trying to DRIVE A WEDGE into the party. :eyes:

[Marr]

257. That sounds an awful lot like neocon media criticism.

"Why is Dan Rather reporting on the Bush Administration's torture programs instead of the Syrians' torture programs!? They're so EVIL!".

[mzteris]

13. Sure you got the right forum?

This sounds like classic rwnut email propoganda.

There IS a lot of violence in video games. I don't care if you like it, you play it, you think it's okay.

I AM one a MOM to young boys and I - for one - deplore the violence depicted in the games. No my kids DON"T play them. But we know kids who do.

The kid next door peppers his "stories" with ripping off legs, bloody killings, running people over, blowing people up, blah blah blah - and he's 7. He thinks it's "funny".

[mdmc]

14. No kids should ever see Vice City

but I love playing the game.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. As a mom of young boys...

are you worried about a potential draft in a few years that involves real violence, because some politicians are more concerned about fictional violence than the real thing?

[mzteris]

18. I don't think it's a case of either/or

I think violence is a mindset.

Do you think they're only capable of doing one thing at a time?

Polluting the minds of children with violence - leads to increased violence in the world - whether through criminal activity, abuse, or war.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. great question. Why would anyone fear the make believe, when

the reality is so dire in IraqNam, and potentially elsewhere?

[mzteris]

33. Did you see Fahrenheit 911?

The scene with where those boys are shooting people like they're characters in a vid game was chilling.

[YOY]

53. Did you see Bowling for Columbine?

Maralyn Manson, who was blamed by the ban-everything-we-deam-bad crowd for Columbine, had the best line in the documentary upon being asked what he would say to the kids if they were here right now:

Michael Moore: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine or the people in that community, what would you say to them if they were here right now?
Marilyn Manson: I wouldn't say a single word to them, I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did.

[mzteris]

57. and that answers the question, how?

I agree listening to kids is important. Not sitting them in front of a PS3 so they won't bother you.

[YOY]

68. It means that the PS3 isn't to blame at all!

That the simulated violence/scary rock-singer isn't the problem when it comes to violence in kids. It's just an easy scapegoat because it's new.

The issue was and is a problem with social interactivity and involves interaction (or lack thereof) between school officials, parents, peers, and the kids themselves: bullying, poor parenting, a school social structure that catered to the bullies, and alienated anyone who was not in their crowd.

Bottom line: Sorry, but you are going to have to look elsewhere (and internally) to decrease violence in society becaue scary movies, art, books, dirty jokes, pornography, video games, and music are little more than a scapegoat.

[mzteris]

83. I disagree.

I don't think it's "little more than a scapegoat". It may not be THE reason, but I believe it's certainly a contributing factor.

We live our language. If you live with racist language, you're probably a racist. If you live with sexist/mysogynistic language, you probably don't have a lot of respect for women - and your treatment of them will be affected by it.

[YOY]

103. Sorry, but the facts are on my side

There have been numerous studies shown that prove exactly what I am saying. No matter how anyone tries, right or left. There is no connection to violence in real life to violence in video games. If you don't believe me that others have tried:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_violence#Study_Fails_to_Link_Violent_Video_Games_and_Adolescent_Violence

Look, I know you mean well, but you are basically saying that people cannot separate fantasy from reality, when in all honesty they can and do. The racist/sexist environment point is a good one, but it fails to address the fact that the violence in video games is not real and that it does not transfer to real world actions or even thoughts in any way more than a particularly well written fiction book takes you away but returns you right back to where you were with none the wiser to your daring exploits on paper.

[Occulus]

114. But the asshole antigamer antagonists won't get that.

When they think of "violent video games", they still think of Mortal Kombat, because that's the LAST time they ever even played one.

These people don't have a single fucking clu what they're talking about, and they prove it to everyone else every single time this subject comes up.

Wankers, the lot of them.

[mzteris]

127. I wouldn't make blanket assumptions, if I were you.

:)

[Occulus]

143. Well, until you prove me wrong

by mentioning one single salient fact about ANY recent game on any console, I have no choice but to contine to do so.

[mzteris]

146. how old are you anyway?

I don't have to "prove anything" to you. Believe what you will.

Can we stick to the original point?

Do you believe kids should be able to play whatever game they want?

Do you believe that "violence" - excessively bloody, gory, gratuitous, violence - is OK for kids?

[YOY]

166. We are used to dealing with one very nasty anti-gamer here

So we sometimes are a little defensive about these things.

That person, who was a huge Lieberman fan, has been banned after Joltin Joe's decision to go independent and his forced support of his favorite Pub in Dem's clothing.

He often described us as children or 40-year-olds living in our parents basement and used the words 'twiddling your joysticks' in an obnoxious manner.

We are used to being defensive around here.

Before you push the issue with kgf about maturity and age...please ask yourself "How many video games have I actually played?"

[Solon]

212. He also had a nasty habit of putting words in our mouths...

Can't forget the amount of times it felt like talking to a very thick, brick wall, the conversations I had with Mr. PD(Professional Disruptor) were maddening, to say the least. Mr. PD was my nickname for him.

[YOY]

268. His tombstone was well deserved and often celebrated

I always liked TroubleMan's theory that he was really Hillary Clinton incognito!

:evilgrin:

[nonconformist]

188. I'm just perusing this thread, and this seemed like as good as anyplace to comment

And yes, I am a parent. I have two sons, ages 11 and 8.

First off, video games have RATINGS. They have games that are suitable for Everyone, Teens and Mature players.

It is up TO THE PARENTS to decide what games are appropriate for their children to play. Just like with films. Adult audiences shouldn't have to have material suitable for them censored just because some parents aren't being parents. And frankly, that's not the fault of video games. That's the fault of the shitty parent.

[YOY]

269. Gotta a little one myself

and I love her with all my heart and will do my best to raise her with an open mind.

[mongo]

285. You may be a nonconformist -- but you're the vioce of reason n/t

[mzteris]

117. I'm not sure wiki is the best source....

but - even if you agree with that - studies can be made to say pretty much what you want them to say.

As I started out in all of this - I know that the 7 yo old kid next door - who has "good, involved educated parents" - peppers his stories with gruesome details of gore and mayhem and killing and guts and etc. . . He's allowed to play "not-so-violent" vid games (their definition), and watch some scary movies *I* wouldn't watch - much less let my kids watch.

We've repeatedly asked him NOT to discuss these things with my 8 yo - my son doesn't even like him talking about these things - but he persists. It's like he doesn't know anything else to talk about.

[gollygee]

122. Some boys that age just talk like that

and did LONG BEFORE video games came out. I doubt it's related to video games.

If you find out how to get him to stop talking about violence, help me figure out how to get my 4-1/2 year old to stop using the words "butt" and "poop" in every sentence.

[mzteris]

132. lol....... the kid next door

uses potty words a lot, too.

I tell him only toddlers use that kind of "bathroom" language, humour. It seems to have helped a bit.

[YOY]

158. Wiki is just fine in this case. You can do additional searches if you would like

If you find anything please let me know. I have to warn you that 1. the facts are pretty solid and 2. there are anti-gaming advocates like Jack Thompson out there.

About Jack Thompson. He's a Talibornagain who will and has said just about anything to make his point. He has lied before about video games and continues to be a magnet of controversy. He has been smacked down just about everywhere he wheels out his rhetoric (most hilariously on G4 TV by Adam Sessler...you had to be there for that one.) and has been a 'cultural warrior' well before Bill O'Reiley and before the heyday of Nintendo as a console maker against horrible influences like Hip-Hop (2 Live Crew...they went away all by themselves...Thanks Jack!) and the insidious Janet Reno!

Sounds like parental neglect in the case of your neighbor kid...kinda sad really.

They may be nice well-educated folks, but they may be too busy to show their kid some of the finer things in life and to pay attention to his input (for the sake of being a well rounded and stable individual if nothing else.)

I'm not blaming the games still. I'm blaming the parents. The PS3, like the television is not a baby sitter. It never claimed to be.

[Clark2008]

108. The man may have problems, but he's no dummy.

I love reading interviews with him - I think he's incredibly well-spoken and intelligent.

Imagine, the leader of a shock band is intelligent, well-versed and sensible, whilst the leader of the free world is a bumbling boob.

[YOY]

162. I don't like his music because of the "I'm so creepy buy my records" thing

Maybe it just went over me and is past my age. I never found his musical talent too inspiring as I have with his poignant commentary. He is far from stupid and ironically that seems to be what most upsets Middle Americans...or maybe it's the pantyhose on a man.

I really have to agree with you. He is a well versed and sensible fellow...

[Mythsaje]

224. I like some of his music...

Then again, I'm pretty up-to-date for a middle-aged guy.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

79. I did. But when I was 6, we picked up sticks and pretended they

were machine guns.

And when it snowed, we threw icy snowballs.

Should we ban sticks and snow?

[mzteris]

85. This is such a silly argument.

It reminds me of "people are going to marry their dogs" if we allow same sex marriage.

Trying to justify one's behaviour with arguments like these indicate there's not a very good reason to begin with. Just MO.

[PVnRT]

134. Kind of like saying it's all the fault of movies and video games

I don't think the slaveowners in prebellum South had either. Nor did their Klan counterparts after the war. Or the Nazis.

If you think that's a spurious argument, then how do you feel about gun control?

[mzteris]

144. No where have I said

it was "all the fault of" . . .

Do I think it a contributing factor? Yes.

As for mistreatment of other human beings - if you grow up thinking it's OK - then you're going to do it. (Be it in person, in literature, in video games, in movies, etc....)

Ah - gun control. Are you trying to get this thread locked? :)

[Solon]

218. Correlation doesn't equal causation...

Besides, taking video games out of the formula actually does nothing to change the results, as many studies have shown. Youth crime is more likely attributed to bad parenting, abuse, mental problems, poverty, etc. than anything kids see on either a computer monitor or a Television set. Besides that, violent youth crime has been DECREASING, on average, since the early 1990s, around the same time DOOM came out, as a matter of fact. If anything, games either contribute only to being a "extra" symptom of previous problems, or has little to no effect overall to actual behaviors kids display.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

137. let's tell Hillary! Quick!

people marrying their dogs? Golly. Another, timely, perfect issue for her.

[Akoto]

34. delete - posted in wrong spot

n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

28. See, you've got the right idea, "my kids DON'T play them."

That's all it takes. You're the parent, you decided. We don't need laws to raise our children, we need parents willing to do the job.

[mzteris]

31. the problem seems to be

that parents AREN'T doing "their job". And their lack of parenting skill can affect MY kids.

What is the point of having a bunch of bloody, violent vid games? I personally don't see the attraction. I guess some people "like them" - but my sincere questions is - WHY?

Can't you have a "game of skill" - even involving "shooting, etc" withOUT the GRAPHIC VIOLENCE?

What does that say about a populace that "likes" blood and gore and evisceration?

[w4rma]

37. Replace "games" with "movies", "music", "books", or "art" and reread your statement. (nt)

[mzteris]

50. Sorry - I still think the same thing, pretty much.

Remember when movies would "fade to black" or cut away? It was still a scary suspenseful movie and it didn't need blood and gore to make it "sell" or good to watch.

The "gross out" factor is the lowest common denominator and an act of desperation, imo.

[PVnRT]

71. So, what's the solution?

You don't like "gross out"? Don't go see the movie.

Don't force the rest of us to abide by some arbitrary moral standard because a few people just can't stand the thought of anyone seeing/hearing/playing "objectionable" media.

[Occulus]

77. The part these sorts never can seem to figure out at all

is that more often than not the violence in these games has a context. As in, the situation the character inds him/herself in requires violence in order to survive.

Oh, I'm sure Half-Life 2's Combine would have responded real well to pacifism. Responded, as in, you're useless to us- BOOM.

And I'm certain the zombies in Doom3 would have responded well to flowers and chocolates.

Then there's Ultima's death scream in Final Fantasy 12. Jesus! That one gave me chills. Same goes for Zalera, the Death Seraph... oohhh, hey shouldn't have called it that, it'll get kids thinking about death....

LOTS of gratuitous violence in that last one. I mean, three people running around hacking the shit out of wolves and bats? That's barbaric!!!

:eyes:

I hereby submit that the antigamer/antigame faction is made up of complete and total idiots who (usually) haven't touched a game in YEARS. That includes Certain Parties on this very thread. They think they're all soooooo filled with violence, they won't even give one a good look.

Hey, idiot assholes, just an FYI- here are a few games that DON'T have bloody violence:

Katamari Damacy
WeLove Katamari
Burnout 3: Takedown (well, okay, but I don't think crashing cars around counts as violence)
Ace Combat 4
Ace Combat 5 (these two are jet dogfighting games; zero blood and guts, just jets)
Gitaroo Man
Guitar Hero I & II
Kingdom Hearts I & II

Of course, I'm dead fucking certain all of these titles are complete unknowns to the idiot asshole antigamers- may they choke on their smug self-superiority.

People who don't know what the fuck they're talking about REALLY ought to shut. the. fuck. up.

[kiahzero]

82. Spoiler alert?

:(

[Occulus]

101. Not needed

Both of those are optional espers, and you'll never find either of them without the guide.

SPOILER ALERT (This is quoting from the guide itself)

THE QUEST FOR ULTIMA

The quest for Ultima takes the party back into the twisted path of The Great Crystal below Giruvegan. Begin at Way Stone VIII and trek up to the Scorpio Gate Stone. Hit the switch and go back down to Way Stone VIII, then turn right and head up to Way Stone IX.

Pass Way Stone XX, taking either the left or the right path on the opposite side o reach the Sagittarius Gate Stone. Return to Sagittarius Gates I & II. You can go in either direction, but for purposes of this walkthrough, choose Gate Stone I, which leads to Way Stone XI. Go ahead and use the Stone.

Take the rising path to the Gemini Gate Stone. Flip the switch and take the next rising path. Bypass Gemini Gate I on the right and and continue to Gemini Gate II. Follow either of the gateless paths beyond Gemini Gate II to Way Stone XV and use the device.

Follow the center path from Way Stone XVI up to the Libra Gate Stone. Use the switch, then backtrack to Way Stone XVI and take the path on the right to Gate Libra I, deactivate it, then continue up. Take the rising path on the left at the next platform to the Capricorn Gate Stone. Flip the switch and then backtrack down, then go right to return to Way Stone XVI. Use the sinking path on the opposite side to find Gate Capricorn I and the Virgo Gate Stone. Toss the switch on the stone and backtrack to Way Stone XVI again. Use the center path to go to the next platform, then take the left or right path to reach Gate Virgo I or II. Pass through the gate and go to Way Stone XVII to reach the last area. SAVE YOUR GAME at the save crystal just ahead. Te center path leads to Ultima!

THE QUEST FOR ZALERA

The quest to obtain Zalera requires that you complete the Patient in the Desert event to get the Barheim Key. Enter Barheim Passage from the secret entrance in the Dalmasca Estersand and wind through the tunnels to Terminus No. 7. The path isn't an easy one, as many powerful undead creatures appear along the way. This is a great oppotunity to level up, but it is also very dangerous. The path through the Zeviah Span seems to be blocked near the south end. Check the west side for an object that can be pushed over to create a path down to West Annex. West Annex is the most challenging area on the way to Terminus No. 7, as the undead appear in groups. Save in Terminus No. 7 Adjunct before facing Zalera.

Hope all that helps. The eight optional espers are nearly impossible to find without the guide.

[mzteris]

87. **the character inds him/herself in requires violence in order to survive.**

Yeah. That's the sort of thing we need to teach kids.

[kiahzero]

98. I guess we should Disney-fy everything, right? (n/t)

[mzteris]

118. heck no.

Disney's pretty sexist.

lol......


You don't have kids, do you?

[kiahzero]

130. No, thank the Gods.

Given that my girlfriend and I are 600 miles apart and working on a Master's degree / law degree respectively, having kids right now would be a disaster.

[mzteris]

148. You probably think I'm some old

fuddy duddy (and you'd be at least partially right! :rofl: )

BUT -

mark my words - you'll more than likely change your tune when you have kids.

And you'll be amazed.

[kiahzero]

156. I'm training to be a lawyer

Somehow I doubt that my legal reasoning will evaporate into a cloud of emoting, "Won't someone please think of the children!"

:shrug:

[mzteris]

160. roflmao

ok -

Like I said - mark my words. Having kids changes you. Having kids changes EVERYTHING!

:hug:

[kiahzero]

172. Maybe for people who can't think logically.

"A -> B" doesn't suddenly change because sperm hit egg.

[mzteris]

181. but after baby hits adolescence .....

well - nevermind. You'll see. Seriously. :)

[mongo]

287. I have a 21yo honor student in college

who loved Mortal combat as a kid.

No, having kids doesn't change everyone into a repressed, authoritarian control freak.

[nonconformist]

191. I have children, and I couldn't disagree with you more. nt

[mzteris]

244. you're entitled.

:D

But what part are you disagreeing with? You don't think Disney's sexist???

If you don't mind my asking, how old are your kids?

[nonconformist]

295. 11 and 8. Boys. nt

[PVnRT]

138. Or you could teach them that video games aren't real

And that violence does not solve problems in the real world.

[mzteris]

239. If I'm that responsible, then I'm probably not

going to let them play them, now am I?

OK - that's probably a bit over the top. That's a problem with this type of venue. I feel like I'm being attacked and driven into a corner and I make some flip remark, then someone takes THAT for gospel and pushes a little more.

A steady diet of junk for the brain, can do just as much harm as junk food does to the body.

[mzteris]

78. you're changing the original issue

from one of should we do something about video game violence that children are routinely exposed to - to freedom of "expression" and entertainment for adults.


I had a similar argument with a bunch of college kids in an art course. (We were discussing Maplethorpe and other controversial artists and freedom of expression, etc.) My point was - just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. And you *should* have a very good reason for using a particular approach. Not just gratuitously. Just imo, of course. YMMV.

[kiahzero]

84. We're talking about the goverment, though

So, by definition, we're talking about "can."

[mzteris]

88. so - we shouldn't

"restrict" underage drinking? Driving? Smoking?

The "govt" shouldn't play any role in setting up safeguards for those who can't safeguard themselves?

Are you against OSHA? Seatbelt laws? Speed limits?

[kiahzero]

97. Excuse me?

When did "setting up safeguards for those who can't safeguard themselves" come into the discussion? We're talking about banning expression... how does that safeguard anyone?

[mzteris]

99. banning expression?

Or limiting video game violence accessible to children.

That's what *I'm* talking about.

[gollygee]

100. "accessible to children"

Aren't these games given ratings?

Maybe the answer is to have people who buy M games show some ID to buy them.

[kiahzero]

105. They already do.

It's exactly like R-rated movies, though, in that there's no legal requirement to do so, but most of the retailers I'm familiar with do require ID.

[gollygee]

107. Well then the only action that would make sense

within our constitution would be to require IDs for games geared toward adults.

That seems simple enough. I don't know if it requires a study.

[Solon]

222. It can't be legally enforced though...

That's the thing, see, its not illegal for a movie theater to let kids see an "R" rated movie, but the MPAA may not let that theater get anymore new movies if they allow such actions. Same for stores and movies. The ESRB doesn't have that type of control, its practically impossible, they are JUST a rating body, there is no MPAA equivalent with that type of power of distribution in the video game industry.

If a store doesn't enforce the ratings on video games, what is the ESRB to do? They can't ban the games from said stores, they can suggest it to publishers, but, if the stores are large, the publishers aren't going to refuse to distribute their games to them anyways. All "ID required" laws that passed for Movies in the past were ruled unconstitutional decades ago, and those same types of laws passed for video games also are overturned on a regular basis as well.

Things are getting better though, more and more stores are enforcing the ratings system, however, it doesn't help if the parent buys the game without paying attention to the packaging, then complaining about it later. Pretty much every major department and electronics store now, enforces the rating system at point of sale. This is company policy for these stores, not laws.

[Occulus]

112. You don't understand what they really want

They want these games OFF THE SHELVES. They want you, as an adult, to HAVE TO buy them online, if at all.

This would effectively end my ability to buy games, as I don't have a working credit card at the moment.

They want to place the extra burden on you and me because they can't be bothered to actually be GOOD parents. They want all of us to safeguard their kids FOR them. I've had this particular argument over and over and over, RIGHT HERE ON DU, and it always- always always always- boils down to piss-poor parenting and parents who can't be bothered OR parents who feel THEIR kids not playing these games isn't enough; in the end, these assholes are ALL ABOUT TOTAL BANS.

And yes, they are assholes, and of the very very worst sort. They want control over YOUR fun and games.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if I EVER get into this industry, I intend to make a game that is absolutely everything they hate about games- and I'll publicly be doing just to spite them. If I have enough money at that point, I might even GIVE it away, just to piss them off further.

[gollygee]

116. Hey - don't paint all parents with the same brush :D

I'm a parent. I play video games but I don't have any games that involve weapons. Oh wait, Princess Peach does use her parasol to smash some turtles and mushrooms from time to time.

I just hate censorship. And people who campaign in this way - we already know what her study will show because it *has* to show what her target audience wants to hear.

[Occulus]

139. Not all parents- just the ones who want the games I like off the shelves n/t

[Mythsaje]

157. I see it this way...

I've never been all that much into video games, though I have enjoyed playing Neverwinter Nights and Morrowind fairly recently on the computer.

I'm an RPG gamer from way back, since right after AD&D hit the market. I've been playing for some 26 years. And I've heard a LOT of shit about how bad D&D was from people with the same mentality as the would-be video game banners. The vast majority of my old gaming buddies have gone on to lead productive lives and many have had children of their own. Last year I introduced my oldest son to D&D and he loves it. He's a big video gamer too, of course.

As I often say--it's not as though humans were totally non-violent BEFORE the advent of video games. Like any reader of science fiction, fantasy, or adventure books, kids DO understand the difference between fiction and reality, especially if the parent bothers to do any PARENTING.

This whole thing is just stupid.

[mzteris]

126. They're supposed to - but it's not being enforced

in most cases. There needs to be some teeth/education and discussion - like now.

Some people don't want to discuss it though. They think it's fine so the heck with what everyone else thinks.

People forget that one person's freedom ends where another's begins. I'm not trying to infringe on the adult gamer's "right" to play whatever game they want. But I don't want my kids - or anyone's kids - having access to the more violent ones.

And if *I* question what the heck one is thinking that is playing said games, doesn't make *me* a bad person. I really want to know. I don't see the attraction. I don't understand the attraction. I was asking. Not attacking. But some people in here seem to be pretty sensitive about the subject.

[gollygee]

129. I think they think you want the games banned

I think requiring IDs so only adults can buy them is a very reasonable solution. And educating parents that video games for adults really are for adults.

[mzteris]

154. nope.

Not banned. Just restricted.

(pssssst - Though I STILL don't get why people like them! :hi: )

[kiahzero]

135. So you're the one that gets to decide what other parents do?

People forget that one person's freedom ends where another's begins. I'm not trying to infringe on the adult gamer's "right" to play whatever game they want. But I don't want my kids - or anyone's kids - having access to the more violent ones.

Do you realize that you've managed to make an argument and contradict it in the small space of three sentences?

[mzteris]

155. Sure - twist it how you want.

We should all have the freedom to do exactly what we want whenever we want however we want regardless of age, race, creed, color or sexual orientation.

[kiahzero]

168. Strawman.

What a surprise.

[mzteris]

179. didn't you mean to write

Quelle surprise?

lol.....

Seriously, what do you mean? You're the one saying there shouldn't be any limitations imposed. I'm the one saying "reasonable limitations".

I'm not trying to be ugly, snarky, or rain on your parade. I'm trying to have a serious conversation - with a little bit of levity thrown in from time to time.

[kiahzero]

186. I'm not saying "no limitations."

I'm saying "reasonable limitations."

Something you might want to keep in mind is that running around in a moral panic shouting "Won't someone please think of the children" is not a reasonable argument. That's effectively all that you've presented here, perhaps minus the histrionics. Your allies in this fight, being Dominionist Christians, would happily use a victory here to ban your children from reading anything from Harry Potter to the Chronicles of Narnia, or playing a great game like Final Fantasy Tactics because it presents an institution comparable to Christianity in a bad light.

[mzteris]

247. Reasonable is reasonable, imho

I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

[Solon]

169. You do realize that the government CAN NOT regulate the game industry...

in this way without a new constitutional amendment right? Every law that has passed, even the narrowest, has been struck down as unconstitutional, a First Amendment violation. Louisiana's is just the most recent of cases that was overturned by the court. Part of the problem is that these laws ALWAYS limit the regulation to just video games, not movies, not music, not books. If any such law were to pass, it would probably be illegal for a child to buy the book "Huckleberry Finn".

Look, this is the PARENT'S problem, it is NOT the government's job to regulate media in this way, simply because it is forbidden by the Constitution.

If you want to ask someone's motivation for playing video games, well, it varies between people. For me, the type of game I play depends on my mood. Here, I'll give an example, I'm driving home from work, someone cuts me off, then brakes forcing me to swerve to avoid an accident. This pisses me off, hell, I'm human, and yes, I get pissed off sometimes. So I'll go home, fire up GTA: San Andreas, and crash cars, think of it as a stress reliever. I imagine its better to do that in the virtual world than in real life, so that's what I do.

Actually, this was true in my childhood as well, back when Mortal Kombat, the first and second games, came out, my parents were the type of folks who have no problem with being watching or playing something with graphic violence in it, however, they always emphasized that it was fantasy, and not reality. Now, me and my friends would sometimes be mad at each other, and, instead of fighting and hurting each other, we would fire up that game and beat the crap out of each other on the video game.

Of course, both of these are examples of channeling anger into something that isn't destructive. If the mood strikes me, I may play a good game of Tetris, or an action/adventure game, whatever. The thing is that violence in video games isn't really something to be concerned about, just look at cartoons, ones marketed to KIDS, that have been used in the past, and are violent.

Here are some examples:

The Little Mermaid: Shows Ursula getting stabbed by the bow of a ship, and even shows the pieces of her left after she is stabbed.

The Lion King: Shows King Mufasa getting trampled to death, later on, his brother is ripped apart by Hyenas. Many fights, etc.

Hercules: Granted the story has been "Disneyfied", so to speak, but otherwise, how many creatures did Hercules beat up? Decapitation is also shown.

Mulan: This shows war, even has blood, when Mulan is almost gutted(stabbed in the stomach). Shows dead human bodies, etc.

Many TV cartoon shows are just as violent, if not more so, even if only for comedic effect, like Loony Toons, or Tale Spin, etc.

I could come up with more examples, but I'll have to get back to you on this. Yet, should these shows be regulated by the government because shows like Aqua Teen hunger force, or some Japanese Anime are also, from a technical standpoint, cartoons? Most of those are even more graphic than most video games, a LOT more so, when you think about it.

Most video games that do have violence, have "cartoon" violence, mostly they are not graphic in any way, and are rather tame, even if compared to cartoons. Some games are sold for "shock value" or parody purposes, that's basically what GTA: San Andreas and others are like, shock games. Big deal, they sell big because of their "shocking" content, but that only takes such games so far, and, by and large, being a GOOD game is more important. The problem isn't the game companies, but parents who don't police what their kids do on their computer or video game console. They really have no excuse nowadays, all the newly released consoles have parental controls on them, protected by password, to prevent games rated "M" for mature, or any other rating the parent sets, from being played on the console.

[mzteris]

245. question

**it is NOT the government's job to regulate media in this way**

We don't allow kids to "buy porn" - and if they possess it, then those responsible for their having access have to be held accountable. Should we let kids buy skinmags?

I can see you like your games.

Wanna play some chess? Rummy? How about Go Fish?

Ok - you guys want the real skinny?

Actually - I played way back when. Heck - I played PONG! :rofl: And Pacman. . . And on to Nintendo. I couldn't be beat at Duck Hunter. Or Gyromite. Or a few others whose names I don't even remember. They were fun. (And no blood or gore.) I became a total game addict. I had to stop playing. (My dang thumbs were SORE!!)

A few years later, I played Doom. My brother-in-law was a serious player - he'd played for months. I beat his score the first time I played. (Thank god he lived far far away from me so I couldn't have access to it ever again after that weekend.)

My kid's have a couple of "games" for the PC - mostly learning games. Then came Harry Potter. . . (1's good, 2's ok, then downhill from there to mindless "shooting" blah blah blah) I have to NOT PLAY. They used to say "Mom, help me through *this part*. . . " they quickly learned to NOT suck Mom into playing the game. They wouldn't get it back! lol......

A couple of years ago I got one of the latest Myst games. You know, a "thinking" game. Again. Addicted. Made me sick to play it, though. Headaches, nausea. etc...... I just can't play the damn thing. But I just HAD to finish it.


You may think that's *why* I'm "anti-game". I'm NOT "anti-game." Seriously.

Do I think it a waste of time? Sure. (So's watching TV and being on DU 24/7!! :rofl: But being on DU is *my* fun thing to do. Would I let my kids loose on here? Hell no. I don't even let the 13 yo read it over my shoulder most of the time.)

Do I think that violence in video games is BAD for kids? Absolutely. Do I think it's BAD for everyone in general? mmmmmm - maybe. I don't know. How often are you tempted to ram your car into someone else for real?


Some people have a hard time separating fantasy from reality. Question: Would you give up your games if you *knew* it caused "some" other people to be violent criminals?

[Solon]

271. If you like games like that, get Wii Sports and Wii Play...

They are for Nintendo's new system the Wii, yeah, its a messed up name. Anyways, Wii Sports is packaged with it, and uses the Wiimote, a remote control looking type of device that can see itself in 3D space, so you play tennis as if the Wiimote was the handle of a tennis racket, etc. Wii Sports comes with several mini-games, Baseball, Tennis, Golf, Bowling, and Boxing.

Wii Play, which is another game, coming out in January, is another "Mini-game" all in one type of game, from the previews, I've seen a Pong like game, but you can change the angle of the paddle, also another game that looks like an updated version of Duck Hunt(That was the original name).

If you are interested in gaming that is more physical, is fun, and is kid friendly, that's a system for you. Other kid friendly games for it include Rayman's Raving Rabbits and Monkey Ball. In addition to this, you can buy classic games to play on the system, online, and they download onto the console to play. The games come from such systems as the NES, SNES, Sega Genesis, Turbographix 16, and possibly the Commodore 64, later on.

This is a weird experience, but my MOTHER of all people, wants the Wii, mostly for the Bowling Mini-game.

I'm trying to find it, but damn its just TOO popular. Hopefully this weekend.

Onto your question:

Would you give up your games if you *knew* it caused "some" other people to be violent criminals?

Uhm, this question is academic at best, and downright nonsense at worst. Why should I give up ANY activity because of the actions of others? Do people give up watching football or baseball because some folks scalp tickets? Do people who drink on weekends end up being cold sober cause a guy halfway around the country drank, drove, and killed a dozen people? This is a silly question, the funny thing, unlike the two activities I mentioned above, there has never been a causal link between playing video games and criminal activity. This is as ridiculous as asking people to stop reading "Catcher in the Rye" because some assassins read it soon before they committed their crimes.

[kiahzero]

104. They already are limited

Congratulations?

[mzteris]

240. limitations that aren't enforced

- aren't limitations.

Wink wink, nudge nudge. People used to freely sell cigarettes to minors, too. But that's been significantly curtailed in recent years due to enforcement - and legislation with teeth.

[Occulus]

106. which bans expression by definition

You really need to work on your understang of the laws of unintended consequences. What am I thinking? You intend those consequences in the first place!

My dear ass, what we're all trying to tell you is that by limiting violent video game exposure to children, you must restrict their availability to adults. You cannot have this boh ways.

I will be there to fight you on this every last step of the way. You will not win this "fight"- and you'll only succeed in making a total, sanctimonious fool out of ourself in the process.

Give up and take care of what your kids are exposed to. YOU limit their exposure. Don't you dare try to limit what I can expose myself to.

Do the latter and be labled a piss-poor parent.

[mzteris]

243. You *really* need to work

on your manners - But far be it for me to say so.

If I HAVE to limit *your* access, then so be it. :shrug: (That was your statement.) My responsibility is to the kids. Not you and your "pleasures."

I don't think it has to be that way, FWIW. As I just stated to someone else - people used to sell cigarettes to minors with impunity. We didn't restrict access for adults by enforcing rules to NOT sell and support minors use of tobacco.

[Odin2005]

109. Then don't watch violent movies or play violent video games.

The Nanny-Statists who want to tell me what I can and can't do can GO FUCK THEMSELVES. Whether I play violent vidoe games is no one else's business.

[mzteris]

248. You can play all you want

(And F yourself too if you like it.) But those who sell or allow access of same said game to minors - IS Society's business.

[Odin2005]

256. No, it's the parent's business.

[mzteris]

258. and for those "parents" who don't give a

sh**?? Or who don't have an f'ing clue? those kids are just sol, eh?

[kiahzero]

261. First let's get some proof that they're being harmed.

I thought you weren't talking about banning the games?

[mzteris]

263. I'm not.

I thought you didn't want a "study".

[kiahzero]

264. I don't want government funds invested in justifying banning expression, no.

If a private group wants to go for it, have at it.

If you're not for banning the games, how are you going to prevent children from getting them? If the parent wants to give them the game, they're going to give them the game.

[mzteris]

266. education, awareness, ?enforcement n/t

[kiahzero]

267. Enforcement of what? (n/t)

[Solon]

220. Actually, those fade outs were mostly due to MPAA censors...

Who were backed by the government, technically, and were rather "odd" in the way they censored stuff. Violence, as long as it wasn't too graphic, was OK, but married couples had to sleep in separate beds. When they did loosen up the censorship, and came out with the modern MPAA rating system, yes, some movies did do the whole "shock" thing. Then again, others actually were good movies even though they had lots of blood and gore, Night of the Living Dead is a classic example, some more modern movies like Saw, are another example. The Original Texas Chainsaw Massacre is actually an example of clever editing, considered one of the most violent and goriest movies of all time, it actually had very little blood or gore in it. Just different art styles, one isn't necessarily better than the other, if both scare you, they accomplished something.

[mzteris]

253. The original TCM - OMG

I STILL have nightmares about it!!!

Why can't people have conversations on DU without everyone getting totally hysterical? Sometimes I form opinions by having conversation. Sometimes I have maybe a notion about something that I'd like to talk about and flesh out ideas, etc. Ask questions. Form and reshape my opinion. You know. Real discourse on a subject.

But funny thing about being attacked. You tend to get your back up and then get backed in a corner and you say things you never intended to say, nor indeed - really even believed. Or something you said as an aside - or in jest - gets latched onto and twisted into some sort of STATEMENT that you're then forced into defending.

:shrug:

Maybe I'll just go back to lurking in the Lounge.

[mongo]

286. "It's for the children"

The rallying cry of the Authoritarian, overbearing censor.

[kiahzero]

38. No.

Your use of capitalization is a compelling argument, though.

:eyes:

[mzteris]

51. lol...... n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. You need to address that to the other parents.

If it comes down to it keep your children from associating with the ones who are influenced by things that you find worthy of disapproval. It's works the same way with other actions that his peers will engage in that you may disapprove of such as; cursing, skipping classes, smoking, drinking, doing drugs or whatever. It's your opinion of what's right and wrong and in the end all the laws in the world cannot replace good parenting.

[mzteris]

54. True - to a point.

I may "keep my kid from associating" with a kid who embraces violence, but that does little to protect my kid from a drive by or other random act of violence.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

60. You're exaggerating if you think video games are the cause of drive by shootings

Gangs are a different social issue but they're not associated to video games. They closer related to poverty and a need for desperate youth feel as if they belong, even if only to that group.

If you really want to change the future of American youth, take up the fight against poverty. It's a real problem that cannot be cured by simple proper parenting skills.

[kiahzero]

72. Exaggeration in a moral panic over some form of media?

That never happens.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

91. Yeah, well, that one was a stretch

The thing is I respect the way mzteris feels about this issue, I just don't see why we need legislation to deal with it.

If a parent has an issue with their child being exposed to specific types of movies, books, games, plays or any such thing, that's their right as a parent. I'm not the one to tell them how to raise their children any more than they should be the one to tell me how to raise mine. Parenting is a series of choices and decisions that we make for our children to form their lives. Some of those choices will be wrong, it's just how it goes, but in the end it's up to the parent alone to decide.

Having said that, I grew up with video games and I still love them. I'm one of the people who will go in and edit the .ini where I can so I get the most graphic results. Surprisingly, I'm still a soft spoken, gentle and caring person and I've never felt a need to actually shoot or hurt anything in my life. I catch and release insects I find in my home rather than harm them. It would appear my games and my reality seem to have managed to stay separated. I attribute this to how my mother raised me. Thanks mom.

[mzteris]

89. I don't think it's just the poverty-stricken

that engage in violence. It's middle class kids who are sitting in front of the vid games for 3-4-6 hours a day.

Drive-by was just an expression - not necessarily indicating gang violence.

Does the term depraved indifference mean anything to anyone here?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

94. If there parents are letting them "hang out" unchecked sure they're more apt to get in trouble

Again, it's the parenting or lack there of. When I raised my teenager I made sure she had plenty of interest that were constructive to keep her busy. It removes the temptation of getting in trouble if you keep them occupied and helps to form a better character. That's what our job is after all, we're in the business of creating great adults.

[mzteris]

111. maybe letting them "hang out" unchecked

is a bit less "responsible" than letting them play unlimited vid games (or watching unlimited TV, etc.) - but not by a whole lot, I don't think.

Either way, they're abdicating responsibility for actual parenting.

[kiahzero]

119. Heh

That's pretty funny. "Maybe not paying a bit of attention is less responsible than paying attention, but not a whole lot."

My parents paid plenty of attention to me, but not by insisting on arbitrary limitations on what I could do with my leisure time. I guess that makes them irresponsible? :shrug:

[mzteris]

151. eh?

**"Maybe not paying a bit of attention is less responsible than paying attention, but not a whole lot."**

That's not what I said..... I don't think parking a kid in front of a tv or video game is "paying attention" to them.

I'm not talking about "arbitrary limitations". I'm talking about reasonable limitations. Of course my reasonable may be your arbitrary. :)

[kiahzero]

167. You're presuming that the parent is "parking" the kid.

There's no room in your analysis for a child choosing to watch a show or play a game and the parent respecting that choice while still paying attention to their child. From the arguments you've made, the only way a kid ever plays a video game is through neglect.

Forgive me if I think that's absurd.

[mzteris]

175. on the contrary -

I don't think there's anything wrong with a kid playing "a game" or watching "some" tv - all things in moderation, doncha know? :) but then there's the kid down the street - 12 yo 6th grade - who plays Runescape all hours of the day and night. He barely eats and sleeps. His parents don't give a rip.

[kiahzero]

180. You really think banning the game would change that?

:shrug:

[mzteris]

246. I haven't SAID to "ban the game" -

I said more rigorous enforcement (and education) of the ratings system.

While I *personally* don't like the violent games and don't see the point - it is your right. I'm not trying to take that away. I don't think anyone is, are they?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

133. You're attempting to put words in my mouth that were never there.

Please, don't.

Where did I say it was a good thing to let our children play unlimited video games or watch unlimited television? I didn't.

What I'm saying is it's the responsibility of the parent to decide what's appropriate, and then to enforce the limitations they set. These limitations will vary from household to household depending on the views of the parent and the needs of the children. Which is to be expected.

There is no need to further legislate parenting in this matter, but there is always a need for parents to do their jobs. These games already have ratings, the tools are there for parents to use if they so desire.

[mzteris]

153. I wasn't trying to do that.

I just thought you were saying that ignoring one's kids was the problem. I was trying to highlight that there's more than one way to "ignore a kid". I'm sorry if that didn't come across.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

195. Ahh, I see

I guess I was confused.

Some children do fine with less supervision, others need more. But in the end the ones responsible for making these decisions and providing this supervision is always the parents. In that respect, yes, if parents ignore what their children do it can lead to them getting in trouble down the road. If these same parents were then attempting to say that it was the fault of rock and roll, television programming, or video games, rather than their poor parenting, I'd call them on it.

[kiahzero]

102. That implies that there's actually evidence that there's a causal connection

The best that anyone ever comes up with (no, this isn't a new area of research) is that there's a correlation between violent people and violent media. *gasp* Shocking! People who are predisposed to violence like violence!

I can't imagine why anyone thinks this discussion is absolutely ridiculous.

[Odin2005]

113. The Nanny-Statists are just looking for something to create faux outrage over.

Fuck them.

[YOY]

45. You mean electronically or in reality?

I love electronic dismemberment, evisceration, blood, and gore of fictional characters and simulated violence!

Feel free to say whatever the heck you want about me. (Just remember that I am a well-educated professional, who takes care of his wife and daughter in the real world and is actually quite a pleasant pacifist.)



In reality...not a fan of blood, gore, and evisceration. Not in the least. Don't even like to think about it.

I do like real-life Al Gore.

Is that a problem?

[mzteris]

56. I don't know. Is it?

Sorry - that sounded snarky, didn't it?

Then again - I don't understand people who like low-brow humour, either. Or Country music, for that matter. :)

[YOY]

61. Oh, I like low brow humor as well as high brow! One can savor both favors!

Country music remains a mystery to me as well. :evilgrin:

Naw, didn't sound snarky. I was just trying my best to make a bad pun with the word/name 'Gore'.

[Ron Green]

145. You're catching some flak here, but I hear what you're saying.

Those who say it's up to each individual parent to monitor and control what his or her child does and sees are heavily supported by market forces that want NO government interference in goods or services, no matter how harmful these products might be. Corporations want rights without responsibilities (they're no different from a person, after all), so they make sure the "freedom of choice" message drowns out the "we're all in this together" one.

Only the government can make policy into law, whether influenced by "nanny-statists" or "anarchists." I think you're calling for more balance toward the "higher mind" of government, and I agree with you.

[kiahzero]

159. I'm heavily supported by market forces?

Could these market forces please buy my books for next semester?

[Ron Green]

174. LOL - Sorry, I meant your point of view, not you.

Maybe you could get Sony or Activision to shake loose a stipend for your carrying on the good fight here on DU.

:-)

[kiahzero]

178. Meh, Sony sucks.

Now, Nintendo or Square-Enix would be outstanding.

[mzteris]

238. Thanks.

I was about to get my flak jacket out!

Whatever happened to freedom of discourse? B-)

Seriously - it's like the child safety seat law. Some people think it's an infringement of "individual choice". I say it's a matter of protecting those who can't protect themselves.

Parents have a RESPONSIBILITY to take care of their kids properly. But some parents haven't got enough sense to pour p outta their boots. (My grandaddy used to say that! :) ) So we just shrug and say - oh well. It's a parent's RIGHT to let their kid get slammed through a windshield??

Do we let kids buy and/or play with porn? or cigarettes? or booze? or guns?

[kiahzero]

242. You really want to give the government the power to decide what children see?

Keep in mind the current administration thinks the breast of the statute of Justice is obscene.

[mzteris]

254. I'm hoping the current admin

is an aberration. :)

[PVnRT]

52. Go look at Japanese video games

that don't get imported to the U.S. The violence in the games Americans play is tame by comparison. Yet, oddly enough, Japan isn't a cesspool of violence.

Hmmm. Weird.

[Occulus]

73. Proof positive that the antigamers once AGAIN do not have a CLUE what they're talking about n/t

[Odin2005]

124. "Anti-gamer" is right, the Nanny-Statists just hate video games period.

[YOY]

76. You shoot/you score!

[WinkyDink]

251. Not since Nanking, you mean? I call it "deflected" violence.

[kiahzero]

252. Wow

You're hilarious. Have you considered standup?

:rofl:

Have the Japanese created a time machine that allows them to project videogame-created violence 70 years into the past?

[Bjorn Against]

274. There are A LOT of games that do not have gore...

The vast majority in fact are not extremely violent. There are some that are sure, but if you look at the entire libraray of what is available you will see that a very high percentage of them have either no violence or merely mild cartoon violence.

[Nutmegger]

16. Maybe she can tag-team this with Lieberman. [n/t]

[WildEyedLiberal]

272. WOW speaking of which...

The other thread on this topic: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3006308

[Hubert Flottz]

19. Thank Gawd!

Now I'll be able to sleep again.

[951-Riverside]

20. Im guessing Americas Army will not be one of the games investigated

\\

[Odin2005]

24. I'm sick of this anti-video game crap

If playing Doom made you go out and kill someone you must already have some mental health issues.

[tigereye]

96. it might be that young kids are more likely to be affected

than the older player. Doom seems pretty tame, these days.

I think the guidelines about RPGs and FPS games make some sense and we have tried to limit our 10 year old's video play in these areas. Problem is, I usually have to ask my husband what are the games the kid shouldn't be playing, since I don't play any of em, myself.

[Solon]

184. You can't read the ratings system on the game?

Its actually simple, here's the list:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

[madinmaryland]

25. I think she is just trying to keep Lieberman busy and

from getting into anymore trouble. Lieberman has been all over this. Better this than blowing BS about Bush and his war!

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Hey Hillary! P-R-I-O-R-I-T-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N

Look it up, Hil!
The Professor

[mopinko]

30. centrist- aka- seller of smoke and mirrors.

you want to slow down the growth of murderers, feed the starving children. feed pregnant women. violence comes of a life started in want and fear. not from a fucking game. you fucking know this hill.
drop this moralizing, and build a moral county, and write a moral budget, then live a moral private life. quietly. period. that is all anyone wants out of their senator, or their president.

[Akoto]

35. I am a game programmer, and I'll certainly admit ...

There are games out there which children should absolutely NOT be playing.

ESRB ratings are placed on games for a reason. If something is rated M, that means Mature. Not for kids. You see a lot of parents ignoring those marks and getting the games for their kids anyhow. Then, when they see the mature content, they come after people like myself for (somehow) having allowed these games to fall into the hands of their children.

Please, parents, read the ratings before you condemn the industry. They're there to protect your kids. You have to do your part in this before the laws should be changed.

[Hippo_Tron]

206. Exactly, the rating and content is on the damn box

Being a responsible parent in this regard doesn't take more than 2-3 minutes and a few brain cells.

[w4rma]

36. I like her less and less. (nt)

[dogday]

39. Yes we all know the people are calling for change

and this is the best Hillary can do? Just askin :shrug:

[montana500]

41. Absolutely stupid move. This exact thing really hurt Gore in 2000.

Kids will be kids.

[YOY]

42. Great Ticket for 08 Hillary/Thompson

Oh wait...Jack is a Republican. (Insert Hillary Joke here)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_%28attorney%29

Get a real issue Hillary. This is the kind of bullshit that makes Dems dislike you. Then again if you were to tackle the Patriot Act or Iraq you would be going back on your opinion.

[noonwitch]

44. I work with kids and I think violent video games can be a problem

I'm not talking about Pac Man, Mario Brothers or Tetrus, I'm talking about things like Silent Hill or Grand Theft Auto. There are a lot of parents who actually are concerned about this, because the games can desensitize young kids to violence.

If you don't recognize that we have a lot of violent young children out there, then you are hiding your head in the sand. It is worth study, so that parents can make informed decisions regarding their children, if they choose to do so.

People who hate Hillary will hate her no matter what she does or doesn't do.

[Tom Joad]

47. If she were opposed to the genocide our military is part of in Iraq, then

it would be different. I think there are problems with video games. But her support for the Iraq war means that she has no credibility with many of us.

[dogday]

128. Good Analogy Tom Joad

To support the Iraq war is wrong, but yet videos are the problem in her eyes? With vision like hers, who would want this lady to be anything other than a Senator... Not me...

[Solon]

182. Please, think of all the innocent turtles!

No seriously, you are right, there ARE violent kids out there, but that doesn't imply anything about video games. Most kids that are violent are violent for a REASON, and that reason can vary from something as simple as raging hormones in pre-teens and teenagers, to abuse at home, at school, or elsewhere, in addition to mental problems. If a child is playing video games, violent or not, with an almost obsessive passion, that seems to indicate that something is wrong, WITH the child, and that they need help. Retreating to a fantasy world, regardless of whether its video games, comic books, or other such outlets, is actually NORMAL for kids in stressful environments. Its a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

[mongo]

289. Before Grand theft auto

It was judas Priest and Ozzy Osbourne
Before that it was Tom & Jerry and The Three Stooges.

Convienient scapegoats for a more complex problem.

[nonconformist]

296. Uh, parents can already make informed decisions... that's what the RATING SYSTEM is for! nt

[Tom Joad]

46. Oppose video games, SUPPORTS real WAR, real carnage.

How many thousands (or millions) of people will die if she is elected?

[mattomjoe]

48. Good. I hope this distracts her from running in '08

[LSK]

55. didnt she do this last year too???

[Ms. Clio]

58. this is sickening

maybe she could try giving a shit about the very real violence killing people in Iraq, first.

why am I supposed to support this woman, again?

[slay]

62. I couldn't agree more

I would much rather my kid be shooting make-believe montsters in Doom than be in a real live shoot-out in Iraq. Hillary can suck it - no way in hell I will vote for her. Where are her priorities? :mad:

[Ms. Clio]

66. This is what she chooses to emphasize the day after the release of the ISG report

revealed that the violence in Iraq is underreported by 1000%.

Stunning.

[Deep13]

59. Good. Maybe she will finally figure out the cheat codes for Quake III.

How the hell you I jump up to get the super-shooter that hovers above the castle in that one level?

These games need investigating. I have no idea how to advance on some of them. Like that level in Final Doom with the pyramid. How the fuck do I get a key for the transport pad in the corner? Dammit, I want answers!

[Mythsaje]

63. Finally!

Don't people realize that before violent video games no one EVER killed another human being, started wars, or acted inappropriately in a public place? They've caused the downfall of the most peaceful era in human history, don't you know?

HEY, HRC! I'm more worried about Grand Theft America than Grand Theft Auto!

You think she'd be rich enough to buy a fucking clue.

[femrap]

64. OMG...Hillary just lost the White Angry Male vote!

It's the White Angry Male's right to be able to view violence and p0rn 24/7. And if anyone EVER thinks about denying them this right (and especially their right to buy it for their spawn), well they'll get out their guns and shoot the SOBs who dare to deny them this God-given, absolute necessity to their well being. Cuz after all, our culture needs more violence....more importantly, we must desensitize our children to blood, guts, death, violence, rape, and murder.

What a waste of the Angry White Male voting bloc....couldn't you get angry over something useful? Like gang violence? Or the number of kids overwhelming our Foster Care system?

And since I have the 'usual responders' ignored....have a nice day.

[PVnRT]

75. Uh-huh

Let's ban all violent TV shows and movies and video games! THEN we will live in a paradise of peace, freedom, and good vibrations!

If you'd actually bother to read the people posting here (I know it's hard, but try) you'd see that most are pissed because Hillary crusades against this while supporting the war in Iraq. We are angry over something useful, and we angry at people like this who want the government to give a stamp of approval to everything to make sure the moralists are happy. I suppose, though, you really don't have a problem with curbing free speech and expression, as long as it's done in the name of something you approve of, eh?

I guess this means I'm going on ignore. Must be easier to do that than haave to listen to things you don't like.

[Mythsaje]

161. And while we're at it, we should ban

violent books and role-playing games like AD&D and everything like that. Maybe we should ban the martial arts too, because, god only knows, people that LEARN how best to hurt people are likely to go out and do it at every opportunity.

And I'm sure no one that isn't an angry "white" male doesn't play video games. Oh, wait...Yes, I've known black gamers too. And hispanic ones. Imagine that.

[femrap]

198. So you're pro-violence? Don't you think I know

I've lost that battle? The amount of violence and the level of it has increased steadily over the years. I feel it has a desentizing effect on people. Others disagree.

I am discussing the issue of violent video games, not Hillary's hypocrisy. You have to go the Kick Hillary Forum for that....

[kiahzero]

80. Yeah, being concerned about the First Amendment is totally unreasonable.

:eyes:

I like the reasoning, though - if one is upset about a politician stirring up a new moral panic rather than dealing with substantive issues, it's the person complaining with the misplaced priorities.

[femrap]

187. Don't play dense....

we're talking violence. Are you pro-violence? Is that what you feel the Founding Fathers meant when they thought of the 1st Amendment?

The amount of violence I see in everyday life has escalated over the years. You are lucky not to have encountered it personally...or maybe you're so young that violence is just part of your 'fun.'

No wonder the world hates Americans. All we offer is bundles of debt, p0rn, violent movies, and ignorant and violent leadership.

Are you truly incapable of looking at a problem such as war and possibly going to the core of its beginnings?

[kiahzero]

201. Strawman

"Are you pro-violence?"

:rofl:

[YOY]

203. We're talking real violence or electronic simulated violence?

Cause there really is no significant connection!

No really! Don't believe me? Ask a Wiki!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_violence

and hey the peaceful Japanese have electronically simulated violence that would straighten your curliest hair!

[kiahzero]

216. It's funny, really.

According to these people, Japan should be a hellish place where you can't go outside for fear of being shot or raped by a giant tentacle monster.

I suppose it makes things easier not to let reality get in the way of the latest "Those damn kids!" moral panic.

[Mythsaje]

219. War? The core of its beginnings?

What--video games?

Try greed. That's really the source of a LOT of violence. Greed for material things, greed for power and authority, greed for status.

And it predates video games by hundreds of thousands of years.

Even chimps are violent, and, as far as I know, their chimplings aren't playing video games.

[sniffa]

230. i'm pro-uLtra-vioLence

it makes feeL aLL kinds sexy

[mongo]

290. Gee - if only Doom 3 hadn't been created

there wouldn't be ANY problems in the middle east.

Geesh -- you're a riot!

[YOY]

86. Funny, my at-work gamer buddy is a gay female...not very angry though

She hates this shit too.

Come to think of it, I know alot of non-white male gamers who don't like this garbage.

Come to think of it, I am not really angry, but am techncially a 'white male.'

You on the other hand sound quite angry.

Need a hug? :grouphug:

[femrap]

165. Would a gay female be a lesbian?

Is that how you introduce her to everyone? Here's my gay female co-worker? I've never heard a lesbian referred to as that. OTOH, I work with a male lesbian...he doesn't go the violent video games though.

So how much blood and guts do you two play with? After all, we are talking violent video games, remember?

And you are aware of that Voting Bloc...the WAMs? They're the ones that George and Karl play with.

[kiahzero]

176. Stunning argument

"Hitler liked oxygen, so you shouldn't!"

:eyes:

[femrap]

190. No, I don't believe he did. nt

[YOY]

183. angry!

angry!

Politically correct!

Politically correct!

Yeah ,I guess she would technically be a 'lesbian' but I've really heard herself describe herself as 'gay' or 'lesbian'...of course the 'gay' thing was on coming out day and it wasn't as if we didn't already know!

I guess you would like to take it up with her?

I really don't introduce her as my gay friend silly! II introduce her as my friend and co-worker 'Kate'! And we don't play with blood and guts! We play with project plans and SOPs and talk about games like 'Day of the Tentacle' and 'Legend of Zelda'! Silly you! It is apparent you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are talking about? Or maybe you're just trolling for attention.

You do need a hug! Here's a whole bunch!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

George and Karl can get their own group hugs and talk about Jesus and real bombs. They are not my problem and I am not in any WAM group.

[femrap]

192. If you don't play violent video games,

then why are you defending them?

[YOY]

196. Oh, we play them too

Have you ever played them?

[kiahzero]

207. But they're E-VILE! (n/t)

[YOY]

213. Methinks this poster cannot be for real

Just too much illogic and hatred...it's almost cartoonish.

[Mythsaje]

200. I don't have abortions

but I'll defend the right for people who do. I don't have gay sex, but I'll fight for the rights of people who do.

I've played D&D for years, which usually involves a lot of imaginary hacking and slashing and stabbing and shooting, read and write fantasy novels (also involving quite a bit of imaginary hacking and slashing and stabbing and shooting) grew up reading comic books (we all know what THEY contain).

I've studied the martial arts for years...I'm actually SKILLED with weapons. And I have yet to use my skills to harm another person except in very few cases of self defense, in which I used my skills to STOP an escalation of the situation without causing any serious harm. DESPITE all this exposure to violent media over the years.

This is just SO much nonsense.

[kiahzero]

205. Free speech?

I know it's a hard concept to grasp.

[mongo]

291. I know women who self identiffy as gay

and don't like the term lesbian because they beleive the term has political/social implications.

I'm sure they would be happy describing you as a lesbian though...

[sniffa]

147. oh Lordy

:boring:

now, back to my vioLent porn.

[femrap]

193. I'm sure you will enjoy yourself. nt

[sniffa]

227. i aLways do

[Solon]

185. Generalizations are fun!

:sarcasm:

[MindPilot]

282. Yes and they are always made by the very same people

whose sweeping generalizations feed the very stereotypes they themselves rail against.

[Hippo_Tron]

215. People said that violent comic books and Rock N' Roll corrupted kids back in the 50's and 60's

Why should I believe this is any different?

[Ian_rd]

65. Gawd I'm so sick of Hillary - She remains convinced that she needs ...

... to "triangulate" with the rightwing nutcases in order to boost her chances at the presidency by appealing to the stupidest issues imaginable. She did this before by spending way too much of her time on the game Grand Theft Auto and *gasp* how you could see boobs *eeeek!* using a secret code.

She may be a true liberal with solid ideology and vision, but she has presented herself far too many times as a shallow political calculator who chooses her issues based on the DNC's brainless strategists. Hillary is the McCain of the Democratic Party.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Unbelievable. But then how will we train the next generation of

cannon fodder that will fight for a war supported by Hillary or her buddy Lieberman?

Hillary, please! Pick your fights carefully!

[paulk]

69. I really don't see the problem

Clinton, Lieberman, and Dick Durbin (be sure to include him in your condemnations) are calling for a government sponsored study to determine whether video game violence has an effect on real violence in our society. This, to me at least, seems an appropriate use of our tax dollars. I would really be interested to know if video games have an effect. I tend to think they don't, at least for adults - since I play them and find them a good outlet for aggression. The effect on young children could be different, however, And I do think this is an area where the government has a legitimate concern.

[Deep13]

93. Nothing wrong in finding out, if that really is the goal.

I would especially like to know how all that cartoon killing affects a child's mental development. My concern is that finding out is not what they have in mind. Rather, they think they know or at least think many parents think they know and are just looking for some papers to point at to change their preconceptions into "fact."

[gollygee]

110. The only problem I have with studies of this sort

is that the people doing the studying often already have an opinion and the study is geared specifically to reach the conclusion they have already come to.

It's really just campaigning, isn't it? She can't find that video games *don't* cause violence because that won't appeal to her target audience. She's running for president.

[Deep13]

149. Yeah, what she said.

It is supposed to be evidence first, conclusion second, not the other way around.

[Mythsaje]

163. Yeah, God only knows

that video games are far more important than the Iraq War, poverty, healthcare, the minimum wage, Congressional corruption, media bias, drugs, Dominionists, RW terrorists, and who knows what else.

I'm more worried about Grand Theft America than Grand Theft Auto. Why isn't SHE?

[paulk]

197. I find this an incredibly weak argument, despite it apparently

being the most popular one in this thread.

It is possible for Senators to multitask. And if you're going to ask these questions of Hillary; ie - why isn't she out saving the world and doing every little thing that you think she should be doing, then you need to be asking the same questions of Dick Durbin. And a whole lot of other people.

[Mythsaje]

204. Maybe it's because so many of us think it's SO unimportant

that it's a COMPLETE waste of time? That the energy could be spent on far more relevant issues?

That there's a limit on even multi-tasking?

[paulk]

226. I doubt that someone as politically savvy as Clinton

would be doing this if there wasn't a constituency out there for it. So "many of us" is probably not a useful criterion.

And you don't know what other issues HRC and her staff are working on... so I don't see how you can make a judgment on her use of energy.

[Mythsaje]

233. Are you telling me with a whole host of REAL WORLD problems

this is the one she brings into the public the day after the ISG produces its findings?

Or is there another, less politically innocent, reason for it?

[paulk]

235. I think ... that if someone wants to find fault with someone else

they will.....

I don't really see much more than that in this thread, to be honest.

[kiahzero]

209. She clearly has extra time on her hands, though.

She could be using the time and energy she and her staff is expending on this to do something... you know... useful.

[paulk]

223. some people do find this useful

she doesn't just represent the segment of public opinion that's found on DU.

And, really - I don't have any idea what other issues she and her staff are working on.

You don't either.

[Mythsaje]

225. Some people are morons...

Hell, a LOT of people are morons.

In the eighties it was heavy metal and D&D...

In the nineties it was "gangsta rap."

Now it's video games.

The "be afraid, be very afraid" cause du jour of the decade.

[paulk]

229. well, there's been some pretty good arguments made

that "gangsta rap" has had an overall detrimental effect on the black community...


We are constantly dealing with new technologies, new influences on our society - I think it's a legitimate question to ask - is the hyper realistic violence of today's video games liable to have an unwanted effect on children? I don't know the answer, but I do think the question needs to be asked.

[Mythsaje]

232. Yeah, but are the people asking the question already assuming they know the answer?

I think they are.

And in case no one's been paying attention, violence is nothing new. Last I checked, humans have ALWAYS been violent. Our closest relative in the animal kingdom, the chimpanzee, is a malicious little fucker.

I think this is just another trumpeted fear.

And, sure, I'm sure gangsta rap did have a detrimental effect on the black community. In the SHORT run. It wasn't the government that did anything about it in the end...it was the fact that the music has evolved past a lot of it. Back in the 50s, they thought rock and roll would be the death knell of civilization. After all, it too was a new, electronic medium with unknown effects.

I think there are far more important issues at hand than this one. For a variety of reasons.

[DarkTirade]

275. Of course the effect on young children could be different...

that's why, like movies, the rating system is geared towards age groups. I'm a firm supporter of them passing a law saying that M rated games can't be sold to minors. Why they haven't already is beyond me. They don't let minors buy NC-17 movies, why the hell would they let them buy M-rated games?
Many stores have wised up and created such a policy, unfortunately many others have just decided not to carry M rated games in a ridiculous effort to appease ignorant parents who don't actually bother to LEARN about things before they let their kids play with them. And then there are some that don't care, and just sell to whoever will buy it. Those are few and far between these days though.

[Swamp Rat]

74. pass the butter

[montana500]

90. Video games are as big as movies. This is stupid.

There are ratings on the games.

This will only alienate possible future democratic voters.

[Odin2005]

120. Such as 20-somethings like myself who are gamers

[DarkTirade]

276. 20 somethings... and 30 somethings... and 40 somethings...

and anyone of any age who plays videogames. The average gamer's age these days is somewhere in the 30s.

[tigereye]

92. she's late to the party

people have been studying this issue for decades....

[Skidmore]

95. Jeez Louise....

[AZBlue]

115. Um, ever heard of multi-tasking? And..do you know how senators work?

First of all, she's not studying anything - her staff is compling the info and she'll read their work on it. So, it's not like she's taking two weeks off to investigate violence in video games.

Secondly, did you see where it said this was all she was working on? You didn't? That must be BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

So...that must mean, this is this morning's anti-Hillary thread. Geezz...don't you people have anything else to do with your time??

[kiahzero]

123. I think the better question is "Doesn't she?"

A moment of a government official's time on this crap is a moment too much.

Hell, let's worry about whether D&D is evil while we're at it!

[PVnRT]

140. ...and comic books! And ROCK-N-ROLL music!

Our kids are going to hell in a handbasket! Little bastards should get sent to Iraq, that'll set 'em straight! :sarcasm:

[Hippo_Tron]

210. In another thread I brought Senator Estes Kefauver

And his tirade on comic books in the 1950's. Hillary will probably seem just as ridiculous in the future.

[ecstatic]

202. I agree

In theory they are supposed to be multi-tasking and tackling a whole variety of issues. I do think video game violence is an issue that needs to be addressed. When you look at the news every night and hear of teens killing each other, you can't help but wonder what is causing life to be so invaluable in their eyes.

[kiahzero]

214. Heh.

There was no problem with teen violence in the 1980s, right?

[ecstatic]

228. In the 1980s, weren't teens more willing to get into physical fights vs. gun fights?

That goes for adults too. It's not just video games. I think its our entire culture that glorifies violence (mainstream movies, the pRez's "war," etc.)

[Mythsaje]

234. Or maybe because the punishments for fist fights

got so out-of-hand that they startling bottling it up more had something to do with it?

[DarkTirade]

277. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.

5 years olds are getting suspended on the playground for playing cops and robbers. And people wonder why occasionally a teen will snap and go nuts...
With no way to release anger and aggression, it can do nothing BUT build. We're in a society where we don't have to hunt live animals anymore. We live in a peaceful enough world that most of us have never had to fight for our life. But we evolved in a world that wasn't like that. Aggression is a part of our nature, and it's best to use it in ways that don't harm rather than bottling it up and waiting for it to explode.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

236. funny. on any hot issue, she has been MIA for 6 years.

Is that how you define multi-tasking? Hiding until a consensus already exists? Leading from behind?

It is so obvious that her presidential campaign handlers have a plan, a set schedule to call news conferences, do photo ops, and to raise safe issues, while ignoring the really nasty stuff in this world. Her game plan is to rely on the press love/hate affair with her, to play it so safe as to violate her oath of office, and to take no stand that might somehow offend any voting bloc. That is leadership done by committee. and election committee. and it is disgustingly transparent and worse.

Name one difficult issue that she has led on. Any issue.

[Little Wing]

125. Oh fuck off

Do something usefull, we've already got one Tipper Gore

[Allenberg]

136. Well stated

:toast:

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

142. This is much more important than actual war violence. Kudos, Hill!

[Miss Chybil]

150. Ah, but you have to get elected before you can change real issues. nt

[Ksec]

152. Loser issue . Shes trying to ruin her career.

Much like the Immigration issue and granting immunity, loser issues.
I am not advocating anything, just that these are sure ways to lose voters.

[jayfish]

164. Hey DU Gamers!

Check out the DU Gaming Group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=248

Oh and Hill, STFU. Gawd I can't wait to vote against her in the Primaries.

Jay

[kiahzero]

177. Relevent comic I found over there:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

171. I don't get why anti-gun people are gung-ho violent video game fans.

I agree with Hilary on this. I babysat a 3 year-old who was into all the violent characters and he almost killed me by slamming a toy rifle into my ribs as hard as he could while we were playing "war."

He was obsessed with all of these violent cartoon characters.

[Solon]

189. And the 3 year old plays HOW MANY video games?

Most likely he picked that up from his parents, TV and Movies they allow him to watch. Big deal, kids have been playing "war" just with different "weapons", mostly sticks and toys, since the dawn of time. Why not try to teach the kids to play more constructively? Isn't that any guardian's job?

[philosophie_en_rose]

173. How about a study on how to get parents to refrain from providing $50 to buy violent video games?

It should, of course, be an international study funded with millions in tax dollars. I gladly propose myself for this lucrative, but clearly necessary work. I expect a PS3 and some games at house immediately.

:rofl:

[0rganism]

211. Hey Hillary -- there are kids in Iraq experiencing REAL violence

Let's start solving that problem first, okay?
'nuff said....

[Cascadian]

217. And this is who the DLC wants as a candidate?

Hillary, there are far more important issues at hand so PLEASE stay out of my video games, keep government from becoming a theocracy, and GET OUR TROOPS HOME!



John

[Cascadian]

221. Does anybody really want her to be the nominee in '08?

Seriously.


John

[ChairmanAgnostic]

231. i've had my doubts for years.

the first time I had a twitch in my sphincter was when the health care program stuff was done in total secrecy. A great idea made bad and unworkable by politics and political gamesmanship.

Her refusal to take any difficult position, in fact, RUNNING from being caught making a decision, for fear that it might offend one group or another is precisely what offends me. Her entire career as senator has been consistent in one and only one way. Every decision is made with her presidential campaign in mind. Therefore, no difficult issues, no cutting edge legislation, no taking ethical stances, (at least, not until the wind direction is absolutely known) and no principled stances.

No senator was elected merely to position themselves for higher office. No senator was elected solely to "triangulate" future voters. No senator was put in office to ignore hard decisions and attempt to create a candidacy.

[DarkTirade]

278. People who try to hide and not make up their minds

because of fear of offending people offend me too. Kinda ironic, huh.
Especially since I'm one of those people who will play devil's advocate and do my best to look at multiple sides of something... :) I see most things as shades of gray, yet people who can't make up their mind annoy me. Go figure.

[DarkTirade]

237. And people wonder why not all of us support the idea of her running

for president...
Anyone who panders to the 'moral' crowd with issues like that has already lost my vote.

[majorjohn]

241. Study Video Game Violence?

Does that mean she'll be playing Bully on Playstation for the next few weeks?

[thingfisher]

255. Glad to see that SOMEONE is focusing on the really

imortant issues facing our nation!

[Marr]

260. Hillary is against imaginary violence, but pro-war. What a fool.

[populistdriven]

262. I am sick of hillary's war against violent video games

she would never go after violent movies

[Yukari Yakumo]

279. Of course not...

You know how thoroughly connected the Clintons are to Hollywood. Hil's an idiot and a hypocrite.

All this will do is waste time while we have more pressing issues... LIKE GETTING OUR BOYS OUT OF THE POINTLESS NIGHTMARE THAT IS IRAQ.

The real reason is for her to grandstand for an imminent Presidential run. It's all about her and nothing else. I hope she gets crushed in the primaries.

Please Al, RUN!

[Initech]

270. Why are they wasting Congress' time with this crap?

Have they forgot that there's a war going on?

[porkrind]

273. Nothing like prioritizing those important issues

Making the world safe from video games. What's next, tackling government corruption? Taking on the corporate/congressional/defense/war industry? Health insurance for children?

[rman]

280. Better study the MIC and how it causes violence all over the world

Remember Iraq, Hillary?

[MindPilot]

283. Hey Hill, how about boxing?

The object of the game is to literally beat your opponent into unconsciousness. There is NO age limit on who can watch.

What kind of message does THAT send to the children?

[B Calm]

284. You'd think she would be more concerned about the violence in Iraq..