Faulty online mapping linked to wrong turn disaster (Cnet - Kim)

[Little Wing]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/faulty-online-mapping-linked-to-wrong-turn-disaster/2006/12/08/1165081119464.html


"Despite its impassable snowdrifts and single lane, Bear Camp Road is offered as the preferred route on some websites and on-board-directions software available on some new cars. And most of those have no business in those mountains in the winter."

When using the Yahoo Maps, MapQuest and Google Maps online services to plot directions from Grants Pass to Gold Beach, Yahoo and MapQuest both recommend taking the same, safer highway route, while Google suggests a shortcut through roads that become dangerous in winter.

Or, according to some around here, it was just NATURE CULLING the STUPID like it ALWAYS does.

[angstlessk]

1. That last line was a SHOCKER! I had no idea people were thinking like

that! What horrible people we have here (very few and far between to be sure). I am truly APPALLED! Those are the self same folks who think it is okay for police to murder unarmed citizens because - they MUSTA been doing something wrong if the police shot them! Sometimes I am amazed at the insensitivity of some DUer's!

[seabeyond]

99. you are right. i was about as offended as you state

about the police had right to kill 86 woman... or smoker should die... or children should not be seen type people. this attitude makes me look at my fellow citizens and wonder if we are so callous, shallow and lacking.

a bunch of scared wusses that have to adopt this attitude cause they are so afraid of shit happens. cant accept that. has to be because someone was stupid. not that they would EVER be stupid

[Caoimhe]

2. This was debunked yesterday in the press conference

James and Kati never planned AHEAD to take this route. The only map they had was an Oregon State Highway map. They missed the exit for Highway 42, which is a very windy but routinely cleared and used highway to the coast. The next such highway (coastal pass) south takes you to just north of Crescent City California. There IS NO GOOD WINTER ROUTE between Grants Pass and Gold Beach. Sadly, they looked at the map and apparently didn't see the red box that says THIS ROUTE CLOSED IN WINTER. On my State Highway map it is about halfway between Galice and Agness, well past the point where the Kims got lost.

The reason this possible online mapping scenario even got any attention was because some of James' friends thought that he might have done a route map using one of those services. There is NO evidence to support that. They were using a State Highway map. They were out late, they missed a turn, they wanted to get to the beach and their reserved room for the night.

I am offended by the "culling the herd" response to this tragedy. James wasn't stupid. People take bad turns, people get lost. I find it pompous and offensive that people would say that he somehow deserved to die for his mistake.

[Atman]

9. Thank you.

It is simply a tragedy. These poor people got lost. Shit happens. I don't see how blaming them serves any purpose in any way.

.

[dysfunctional press]

33. my wife's purse has your cat massage pic on it...

i saw the purse in the mall, and HAD to get it for her- the two cats pictured look just like two of our three tabbies, and our grey tabby is always being made subservient by our red one- so the pic is very appropo.

[SoCalDem]

64. It's all just so sad.. I know hindsight's 20-20, but I'd like to remind

people that if it's dark, and you're on an unfamiliar road.

LET THAT PREPAID ROOM IN THE NEXT STOP GO..

Many people push themselves to "make a reservation", and end up with a disabled car or an accident.

Ehatever the per night rate at the Gold Beach resort was, I sure wish the Kim family had not set out at 9PM...and had just gotten a local room for the night..

:cry:

[seabeyond]

100. i would suggest it is the very few that end in disaster

and the strong majority will make it. though i am also an advocate to let things go too if need be. i am suggesting.... a post saying "many" isnt accurate

[SoCalDem]

106. I know "many" people who push themselves to get somewhere

even when they are too tired to drive, their car's not in tip-top shape, or the conditions are horrible.

Every holiday season it makes me so sad to see how many people end up killed on highways, trying desperately to get to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving or Christmas.

When we lived in the "snowbelt" we just flat out told out parents that we would NOT be hitting the road to spend the holidays with them. We could not afford to fly, and it was too risky to drive 900 miles on icy roads to spend 2 or 3 days arguing with family :evilgrin:

I think it's human nature to think that we can control things. We are brought up on the "can-do" mantra.

My philosophy is that if it's snowing, raining, hailing where you ARE, it 's best to find a clean motel and stay until you are sure Mother Nature is over her "snit".. We spent 3 days in Flagstaff one October for that reason :) Nice place, Flagstaff :) We did lose our deposit at our California hotel, but that was better than ending up stuck somewhere with 3 kids, a dog and a cat.. (we were moving to CA, and were worried sick that the moving van would beat us there and charge us $200 a day if they had to wait for us).. The moving van got there a day after we did..

[seabeyond]

110. the point.... knowing many that push too hard doesnt result in death

the many accidents you hear are not all a result of pushing self too hard. they are merely that.... accidents.

[SoCalDem]

122. I guess I am a fatalist.. I prefer not to tempt fate.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

125. i left children home first time tonight going out to dinner with an old couple

i am an over protective mother myself. but we were talking how today is so scary. and i told them, not really. all the shit happened way back when too, we just didnt get it shoved in our face all the time to be so afraid. and then later about how dangerous it is to go trick or treating. no.... i say. not that i have let kids go alone, but is it really dangerous? i am not seeing kids get it all the time.

it is something i am trying to consciously back away from. hence, the posts not so much for you, as much for me....

wavin back

[lectrobyte]

3. I'm surprised anyone around here would take the attitude described

in the last line of your post, but I have seen it myself here. Rather sad.

[zreosumgame]

4. could you document that attitude please?

[likesmountains 52]

5. I think it all got deleted in a GD thread yesterday...

[Gormy Cuss]

6. Use the search function .

You'll find the Kim threads in LBN and GD. I can attest to seeing the attitude from a handful of posters. The vast majority were supportive.

[zreosumgame]

98. you 'attesting' is not documentation

thanks for playing but you lose

[Marie26]

101. How about reading this very thread?

Plenty of evidence of that attitude.

[Kingshakabobo]

108. You aren't too bright, are you?

You come back a day later with a "you lose" smarmy remark yet you don't pull your head out of your ass long enough to read this thread...... and what has been posted since you graced it with your presence?

BTW, the thread the poster was referring too had entire sub-threads deleted due to the asshole with the attitude that the Kims deserved to die. If you got off your lazy fat ass, you could do a search and figure it out.......it isn't that hard.

[piedmont]

109. My thoughts exactly

I would have thought this sub-thread wasn't necessarry since QuestionAll showed up below, but then, like you say, some people aren't that bright.

[uppityperson]

115. a whole bunch got deleted in a GD thread. can't prove because deleted.

If it weren't as it was, it wouldn't have been deleted. But it was so it was so none of us can prove what was deleted.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. "Thanks for playing?"

I gave you direction to find your own documentation. My attesting was only to support the OP in case you were unable to figure it out using search. I don't play games.

[catnhatnh]

7. OK..Safety Message Time...

Here in NH, several are "culled" every winter. With ongoing, unstable, climate shifts it is important that EVERYONE acts as if they are facing a New Hampshire winter...If you drive in the winter YOU COULD DIE! Your car can slide just 30 or 40 feet off a major highway and be totally invisible.And If at the end of that slide you are rendered unconscious or injured (think:broken legs) then you may die within screaming distance of help.If you EVER drive through remote locations the odds drift dramatically. So do it now-if you don't have one,get a cell phone,even if it is a pre-paid.If you ABSOLUTELY cannot afford this, then put a cheap-ass $10 tag sale CB in your vehicle as even this can make a difference. For $25 bucks you can really improve the odds-think flashlight, compass, knife, mirror, etc...real survival shit. Don't forget a .99 cent bic lighter, which beats the shit out of trying to spin a section of sapling at supersonic speeds.An axe and folding shovel would be sweet-people have built cabins with less.A few blankets and a bag of old unused heavy clothing is swell.Just for chuckles, throw in some non-perishable food that you can pull out in the spring (don't forget a P-38 or other can opener) and water in an expandable bladder (to avoid freezing problems) and you may survive.Jello packets make both a delicious hot treat and a passable dye marker.Read up on survival sites on the internet-and remember how long they waited for rescue.
On edit:Keep the gas tank full as well.Motor oil burns...

[Atman]

11. I drove to Jay Peak, VT last year, and hoo-boy...

We started at Stowe, and by map, it doesn't look that far. "State Roads." But they're mostly tiny two-lane (or less), pot-holed, no-guardrail nailbiters. We did the trip one morning with light snow, and I was never so thankful for owning a 4x4 with traction control. We commented several times how we would NOT want to make the trip at night. And since then, we've done pretty much everything you say when we head into northern New England; first aid, fire making stuff, a shovel, etc.

BTW, by law, all cell phones must be able to dial out for emergency service even without a designated carrier. So don't even waste money on a pre-paid, just get an old one from a friend or relative and keep it charged. Free emergency calls are meaningless if your battery is dead.

.

[Dora]

30. Mylar "space" blankets are cheap and compact.

You can pack a dozen of these blankets in the space of a shoe.

They are highly reflective and good for signaling.

[XOKCowboy]

65. Amen Brother...

I live in Colorado but also drive all over the US. From about September on I take my cold weather duffel with expedition weight undies, gloves, balaclava, thick hood sweater, etc. Those are all good suggestions but I think that you missed the most important one...

Don't do something stupid, especially when you've got your family in the car. If you are in those conditions at that time of night, STAY ON I-5! Go back to the recommended route. DON'T TAKE A SHORTCUT for pete's sake! Even better call the resort and cancel your reservations and get a hotel on I-5.

I feel so sorry for that family but the guy really got in over his head. I'd have been backing down that road to the interstate after about half a mile.

[depakid]

85. Inquire locally about conditions

is THE single best advice I can give to people who want to take "shortcuts" in Oregon. On the map, these forest roads look like they'll save you time, but more often than not, they're windy, slow and dangerous- even in the summertime.

[ribrepin]

90. Yours is the best advice I've seen yet

The Kims should have canceled the reservation and got a hotel on I-5, but they were probably tired and not thinking straight after traveling so far with two small children. Rule of thumb, wait until sunlight to travel to the Oregon coast and then use main roads. There are some treacherous roads in Oregon and 101 is no piece of cake.

That being said, they really did try to stay alive and get rescued. The whole thing is just incredibly sad.

Maybe some good will come out of this, in that, people are talking about road safety. Stick to the main roads after dark and carry emergency supplies.

RIP James

[Porcupine]

95. Sleeping Bag!!! all this applies to coastal/mountain california too.

A survival kit packed into a sardine can is available from a company called Real Goods for $14.

My winter kit when I leave town always has a sleeping bag and a tarp (preferably tyveck). I probably should be better about the water bottle maintenance than I am.

Food- go to the dollar store and buy cheap protien bars; the more unlikely the flavor the better as they will be there when you need them. The more calories the better.

As for the sadists that think that the Kims were somehow stupid. I know of roads in Mendocino and Lassen National forests where you could die 15 minutes off the main road. Go down the hill and there is no getting back up without a winch or a helicopter.

Unless you are the rare kind of person that maps things in your head as you go you would be lost until spring. GPS sometimes doesn't work under trees or in canyons and a compass is only good if you know which direction is out.

These were normal city people not familiar with country road hazards. That would be most of the California population.

[FlaGranny]

102. It can happen.

I grew up in NJ and as a young woman I and my husband took my mother to the movies. It was in the late 1950's. While at the movies a snow storm started. As we were on our way home on a long, dark country road, our car ran into a snowdrift across the road and got stuck. We were only about 1/2 mile from the nearest house, so we decided to try for it. We barely made it. The people kindly took us in. We spent the night in a house with a couple of drunks and the sober wife of one of the drunks and I can tell you THAT was an unpleasant experience. If that house had been 1/2 mile further, I doubt we would have made it. We probably should have stayed in the car but we were afraid of either carbon monoxide or frostbite. What started out as a nice evening had turned into a blinding blizzard. It is not easy to plow through snowdrifts in street shoes - in fact it is compoletely exhausting. Winter driving in many areas is dangerous. Can I tell you after that we were prepared and always carried winter survival items in the trunk.

[ContraBass Black]

8. That's why all of those on-line map services tell the user to VERIFY THE ROUTE

Before departure. Navtech maps still don't show a street name change that occurred a year and a half ago. They certainly won't show the closure of an obscure logging road after a few months.

[ecstatic]

69. How does one verify a route without taking it first?

Just wondering, for future reference.

[ContraBass Black]

82. By using more detailed and recent local or state maps, usually on paper.

I just looked at mapquest. It seems that the warning has been replaced by a disclaimer since I last used it.

[dysfunctional press]

10. it was a definite CULL...

let's see- lots of stuff to burn to make a big signal fire...nah...i think i'll just huddle in the car for a week shivering and hungry, and then trek off in the snow with too little clothing for the conditions.

scratch one weak link.

[Catherine Vincent]

12. That's not nice. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

14. why not...? the guy was an IDIOT.

with about a half-ounce of common sense, he could have started a fire and gotten them rescued within the first couple days, EASILY.

[Lex]

15. They did start fires. Learn the facts. Now who's the IDIOT?

:shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

17. after more than a week...

and they only burned the tires AFTER the car ran out of gas....they should have burned those FIRST for the smoke signal. THEY were the IDIOTS

[Lex]

19. Changing your story. I thought you said they didn't start a fire?

LOL.

[dysfunctional press]

21. what i was saying is that they didn't start a fire RIGHT AWAY.

they sat in the car for a week, and wasted the gasoline running the engine- total MORANS.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[piedmont]

114. What you were saying is exactly how to end up DEAD. nt

[SoCalDem]

66. Gray smoke mixed with fog and clouds..in an area where there was no one around

to see the smoke would not have been all that effective..

The weather was horrible for some days there..

Kati & Jame's friends & family will have a lifetime to criqtique what they "coulda/shoulda" done, but in the final analysis, 3 of the 4 survived..and in desperation , James made a decision that took his life needlessly...but he did not know that at the time...and after a week of giving his family food (none for him)he was diminished in the thinking capacity..hunger/cold/worry/stress/fear..it takes a toll..

RIP James :cry:

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. He did start a fire

and you would have made great fuel for that fire.

[uppityperson]

121. How do you know? Can you see into alternative universes and tell?

wow, impressive.

[Lex]

13. Do you know the FACTS? No.

They burned the tires for smoke signals and to stay warm.

[dysfunctional press]

16. why did they wait over a week to burn the tires?

and why didn't he try that before trekking off into the woods with no supplies and too little clothing.?

like i said- scratch one weak link.

[Lex]

18. Wait a sec. 2 minutes ago you said they didn't start ANY fires.

Now it's a timing thing, eh?

Busted.

[dysfunctional press]

22. no i didn't.

try a little comprehension next time.

[Lex]

26. Here's your post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2882161&mesg_id=2882852

Oh, you meant they didn't start a fire RIGHT AWAY. Sure. :eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

28. anybody who followed the story knows they eventually burned the tires.

they were just too stupid to do it from the getgo.

[dysfunctional press]

29. and actually, it wasn't even "they" it was "she"...

so it would appear that at least one of them had at least a minimal amount of sense remaining.

although it still took her over a week and an empty gas tank to figure it out.

[kestrel91316]

72. How were they supposed to drive out if the snow had melted,

if they had burned the tires right off the bat?

Burning tires is a LAST RESORT, not a first choice. But I think you know that.

Oh, BTW - where did you do your wilderness survival training?

[laundry_queen]

34. Speaking of stupid

if you had actually been following this, you'd know that burning the tires right away would have been stupid - as there were no big searches right away. So burning all the tires RIGHT AWAY before anyone was even looking for them, would have been smarter, in YOUR opinion, than waiting a few days when there were sure to be searches (I think they had heard a helicopter).
Mmmmkay then. :crazy:

[dysfunctional press]

37. ummmm...ever hear of FOREST RANGERS???

they tend to investigate fires...in the forest.

[laundry_queen]

39. You ever try to start a large enough fire

for a forest ranger to see, with 4 tires and some frozen wet wood?
Didn't think so.

[dysfunctional press]

40. g-a-s-o-l-i-n-e

(you don't sound like a survivor- better stay on the main roads til springtime)

[laundry_queen]

47. LOL! I lived in a town in the middle of a forest

I'm talking 4 hours of highway to the next nearest town. Nothing but hundreds of miles of wilderness and a couple of gas stations in between, in northern Canada. I travelled the road in between a lot. With small kids. In the winter, with (unexpected) blizzards. I was quite well prepared. However, I know, as only people who live IN the wilderness can know, how quickly things can go wrong with even the best preparation.

I have a feeling you've never seen a real forest. Any idea how big they are? Any idea how hard it is to spot a small fire? Why do you think forest fires usually aren't seen until they are pretty big?
Oh and how long do you think a fire would last, even with a full tank of gasoline? Having experimented a few times as a teen with campfires, I can tell you a few hours, at the most, especially if it was wet.

I sure hope YOU live in a city.
:silly:

[dysfunctional press]

55. this wasn't in northern canada- it was oregon.

they were a lot closer than 4 hours of driving away from the next town.

with 5 tires and the car seats- the motor oil and gasoline, as well as fallen wood and live pine trees- it wouldn't be too difficult at all to make the kind of fire that could be seen fairly readily, and too keep a fire going for quite ahile as well.

it would sure as hell make a lot more sense than wandering off into the woods with absolutely improper and insufficient clothing.

[laundry_queen]

62. Again - I'm pretty sure you've never been in a forest. You and your 'fire'.

I'm also pretty sure you know fuck all about the timeline of events. The first 2 days were heavy snowfall and rain. In a mountainous region, clouds gather near the tops and in the valleys, disguising any smoke that might have come from a fire. Again, do you have ANY idea how big a fire has to be for a forest ranger to spot it? Not to mention, in the new conference, Kati Kim had told the rescuers that they had tried to get wood from fallen trees, but they were all frozen to the ground and covered in a lot of snow. They did manage to get some, and kept a fire going for some time with their spare tire, and only when they could no longer keep THAT fire going did they use the other 4 tires.
I'm also well aware it was in Oregon. You insinuated I knew nothing about surviving in a wilderness situation, and I pointed out where I lived to show you were wrong. I'm very well informed about how to survive in the middle of a forest. Starting a fire right away and using all your resources on the first day, is NOT how to do it.

[OzarkDem]

23. Sounds freepish, doesn't it?

[dysfunctional press]

25. not at all.

stupid people tend to get what they deserve.

i'm just pointing that out.

[bigendian]

78. That seems to be happening here.

Doesn't it?

[uppityperson]

117. one could only hope

[NightOwwl]

91. self-delete

[Paladin]

111. If Stupid People Get What They Deserve......

....better brace yourself.

[RebelOne]

31. Thinking the same thing. n/t

[kestrel91316]

74. Betcha you consider yourself a good Christian, huh.

[kestrel91316]

73. Exceedingly so. I have alerted. Suggest everybody else do the same.

[jayfish]

89. You Just Now Noticed?

I've known since Jan 18th 2006

Jay

[kestrel91316]

70. Where was he supposed to magically appear the supplies and

clothes from once they were stuck???

Since fires attracted no help, how long were they supposed to KEEP sitting there?

It was a very difficult judgement call for him at that point. With no food, his judgement can't have been at its best.

Put your hateful attitude someplace where it belongs, like where the sun don't shine.

[OzarkDem]

20. That's disgusting and offensive

Always amazing that a few on this forum delight in gloating over the misfortunes of others. May the shoe be on the other foot for you some day.

[dysfunctional press]

24. if the shoes on the other foot, i'll still be alive.

i wouldn't be stupid enough to trek off into the woods with inadequate clothing,
and smart enough to start a fire RIGHT AWAY.

[Kingshakabobo]

36. Why would they start a fire right away?

Clearly, they had adequate shelter to keep them warm.

[dysfunctional press]

38. to attract the attention of a forest ranger, perhaps?

ultimately, it was a fire that got them rescued, so clearly that's what they needed to do.

[laundry_queen]

41. It was NOT the fire that got them rescued.

It was James Kim's tracks.
:banghead:

[dysfunctional press]

43. actually, it was a combination of things...

but sitting in the car for a week doing nothing sure didn't help a lick.

[laundry_queen]

50. Kept the mom and kids alive.

Kept them warm, out of the snow. Got them rescued.
What is this 'combination' of things you are talking about?? It sure as hell wasn't the fire, as you so stated earlier.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003467385_pilot08m.html

[judaspriestess]

112. If someone is able to remove the tires to start a fire

then they should have been able to move the vehicle although it was not stuck as speculated. They could have also burned dry limbs. I watched on Anderson Cooper how they left a candle only partially burnt. And why wait a week?

[Kingshakabobo]

48. Admit it. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

It wasn't the fire that got them rescued. It was an umbrella....and the husbands tracks.

One of several stupid remarks by you in this thread.

Here's another one:

"""he could have started a fire and gotten them rescued within the first couple days, EASILY."""

The rescue efforts didn't start for a week. That's just stupid.

While a ranger MIGHT have seen a relatively small fire, it's more likely any fire generated by what they had on hand would be quickly dissipated in a mountainous, windy, forested area. It wouldn't be easy to see unless you were specifically looking for it by air......see above reference to your stupid assertions.

[laundry_queen]

53. Yep.

No fucking clue whatsoever. Thinks a small fire would stand out like a sore thumb over hundreds of miles of forest - during a heavy snowfall. :crazy:

[kestrel91316]

76. The remarks are not "stupid" - they are DELIBERATELY hateful.

I have alerted on this person.

[piedmont]

81. He apparently thinks they got lost in Jellystone N.P.

All they'd have to do is build a fire and Yogi and BooBoo would go get the ranger! :rofl:

[WyLoochka]

97. Yep he doesn't know what he's taking about

Forests that are wet in winter, as Oregon's are, typically do not have many Rangers on duty. And those who are working are not tasked with roaming the back roads during snowstorms. Even in Arizona forests, which are not really, really wet like Oregon's, the fire look-out staff - trained to distinguish smoke from fog - have ususally been de-activated well before late November.

This guy is just a very cruel ignoramus who lives in Chicago! He apparently hasn't been out of Illinois, as he knows diddly squat about winter in the western mountains.

[uppityperson]

118. Totally wrong. Jim's tracks 5 miles away led helicopter to them

Once helicopter followed his tracks, he found them.

[kestrel91316]

75. Betcha you're ANOTHER one of them good Christians, right?

[Tsiyu]

96. I bet your shit smells like rose petals, too

You are a Class A Jerk

Here's hoping your day sucks as much as your attitude toward your fellow man.

:thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

35. why? because i'm pointing out a GLARING lack of COMMON SENSE???

if one person reads what i wrote, then gets stuck in the snow like the Kims, and then REALIZES that all they have to do is use the cars gasoline and tires to start a BIG HONKIN' FIRE to attract the attention of a forest ranger- isn't that a GOOD thing?

[Catherine Vincent]

42. You enjoy having a conversation with yourself?

If you like, I could pm you. :)

[Little Wing]

44. Let them go, they're on a roll

It's like watching Gollum >D

Stupid, wretched little Kims

No, they didn't know any better

No, they deserved it

Stop saying that!

Deseeeerrrrvveeed it

[dysfunctional press]

45. myself?

i thought i was responding to people responding to my posts...

like you, fer instance.

[wicket]

46. I think it's because the other poster has a very similar user id as you..

Maybe?

[Catherine Vincent]

58. No, you're replying to your own postsl

My post #42 was replying to your post #35. :crazy:

edit: Nevermind, you're not replying to your own post. My bad. Too many question all's on DU. Is this what you call a sock puppet?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy::crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Kingshakabobo]

52. The very similar names CAN be confusing.......

......kinda like twins. ...but once you get to know them, like twins, they are not that similar. One is a big-time asshole and the other one isn't.

[neverforget]

61. It snowed for the first 2 days they were stranded so it's useless to

burn tires and gasoline if visibility is worthless since there would be no air search in such conditions. Why would you burn the gas if the car still runs and you can use the heater?

[piedmont]

71. What kind of CARTOON perception of national forests do you have..

in that head of yours? Do you not realize how improbable it would be for a small pillar of smoke to be seen by ANYONE when no one is out looking for it? And small is what it's going to be, given the amount of gasoline they had on hand and that the surrounding vegetation wasn't dry. It's a HUGE national forest, extremely mountainous, and probably staffed by a handful of Forest Service personnel. Could James Kim have survived if he did things differently? Yes. Does that make him an idiot for doing things the way he did? NO.

[kestrel91316]

77. Question - would you be saying these things if Mr. Kim were not

ASIAN???

My RW ex really liked to rag on Asians. It's a RW trait.

[NightOwwl]

92. How old are you anyway?

8?

[tabasco]

93. I'm a Ranger (Army-type) and I'm laughing my ass off at your posts.

It's know-it-all dumbshits like you that are the first to be culled.

[uppityperson]

119. And if you start a forest fire, what is to say you don't burn yourself up?

You do know that forest fires are difficult to control? Did you know that firefighters, trained firefighters, sometimes die in them? If you didn't know that, maybe you could googlesearch and see. I bet that a city family with 2 little kids would have a hard time with that forest fire. Besides which, firefighters will be trying to put out the fire AHEAD of where it is going, the leading edge, only checking what started it after it is under control. So now you have people in a car at the beginning of a forest fire, perhaps enveloped in that fire, waiting. And, they would probably get a fine since you are not supposed to start forest fires. That would be bad too.

[Bluebear]

49. DU could use a good Cull now and then, I'm learning. nt

[uppityperson]

116. You do realize the family was found 'cause they found Jim's tracks in snow 5 mi away?

or were you ignorant of that? Link was in a GD topic last couple days. Local helicopter pilot started searching and found his tracks and followed to family.

[H2O Man]

27. Tragic case.

It was a very sad case. The mother and children being found was wonderful, and certainly got my hopes up that the father would also be found okay. Only a heartless sub-human would find fault with his attempt to save his family. A person can have no greater love than to risk their own life for others.

[likesmountains 52]

51. I am really surprised how many people sitting in their comfy homes, in

front of their computers, knowing there is food in the fridge and fresh water to drink...know exactly how they would/should act if they ever face a horrible situation like this...

[Kingshakabobo]

54. The bright side, if any, is maybe we are learning something.

When I was learning to fly, my instructor told me to dress like I had to walk home when on a cross country flight. I know I'll keep this in mind when I travel from now on.

[likesmountains 52]

56. Agreed....I live in the mountains and keep some winter disaster items in my car...

but I don't think it'd be enough to last a week...

[Bluebear]

57. It's really quite remarkable how many Junior Rangers we have posting here.

They not only would have been saved within a few days, but they would have discovered the cure for cancer while they were awaiting their inevitable rescue.

[likesmountains 52]

60. You just made me laugh out loud! Thanks

[laundry_queen]

63. LOL!

Thanks for the giggle, I needed it after dealing with the poster upthread.

[RamboLiberal]

68. Thanks Bluebear - Right now there are a few DU'ers

I'd like to drop off in the wilderness and see how long they survive. Yep, we sure have some cocksure Jr. Rangers here all right.

BTW to questionall - your forest ranger investigating a fire is hilarious. That forest is so wet right now no way in the hell it's going to burn and Forest Rangers don't exactly hang out in smoke towers(do they still have those?) in winter. Plus I bet they are not exactly patrolling every mile of roads in those forests either.

[piedmont]

59. Map Quest from Wolf Creek to Gold Beach takes you straight thru that dangerous road

check it out here:


http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?do=nw&go=1&r=f&aoh=&aot=&aof=&1a=&1c=Wolf%20Creek&1s=OR&1z=&1n=Josephine%20County&1y=US&1l=YU1Ob0QRh8qg87VzullbUQ%3d%3d&1g=ywLR1SLvwT%2blc8wN6lcZ9g%3d%3d&1v=CITY&2a=&2c=gold%20beach&2s=or&2z=&2y=US&2l=&2g=&2pn=&2pl=&2v=&2ffi=&2ex=&2n=


Map quest's route goes right from I-5 to SR 23
This is pretty scary-- it could STILL happen!

2: Merge onto I-5 S / OR-99 S toward GRANTS PASS. 9.4 miles Map

3: Take EXIT 66 toward HUGO. 0.3 miles Map

4: Turn RIGHT onto MONUMENT DR. 2.2 miles Map

5: Turn RIGHT onto PLEASANT VALLEY RD. 2.6 miles Map

6: PLEASANT VALLEY RD becomes GALICE RD. 11.4 miles Map

7: Turn SLIGHT LEFT onto BLM-34-8-36. 12.3 miles Map

8: BLM-34-8-36 becomes NF-23. 24.3 miles Map

9: Turn LEFT onto NF-33 / AGNESS RD. 18.9 miles Map

10: NF-33 / AGNESS RD becomes CR-595 / JERRYS FLAT RD. 9.8 miles Map

11: Turn LEFT onto US-101 / N ELLENSBURG AVE / OREGON COAST HWY.

[stubtoe]

105. The MapQuest roads data is not infallible. Use it as a guide, but never

rely on it alone. Even in town!

[piedmont]

107. yep. nt

[quinnox]

67. Snow, mountain roads and cars can be a killer

My friend and I were in his SUV in Oregon exploring some remote forest areas near the start of summer and we took a road that had some snow on it, not tons but some, which was surprising because we thought it would be melted by then but my friend went ahead and drove on it and we got stuck about 30 seconds later. We tried to dig it out by hand but it didn't work and then it started raining and getting dark. Luckily, a local guy who was out looking for rocks happened by and gave us a ride back to town and we got a tow truck out there eventually. It saved a very cold night sleeping in the car, but we weren't in fatal danger or anything because we would have walked back on the road we came in on and it would have taken probably all day to get back to the nearest town but there wasn't any snow on the road back and probably we would have run into someone on the main forest road too.

Still, lesson learned, don't ever try to ride over snow in a remote area, even in a four wheel drive vehicle, unless you have chains.

[Marie26]

79. Now if only DU could cull the stupid.

Like wanna-be survivalists who like to feel superior to this poor family.

[WernhamHogg]

80. Seeing people blame the guy for trying desperately to save his family

Seeing people blame the guy for trying desperately to save his family reminds me of the people who were blaming the victims of Hurricane Katrina for being "stupid". I remember hearing more than a few people throw out what the victims of the Hurricane "should" have done (like smuggling in a gun to take charge in the Super Dome, commandeering the local Wal-Mart and other Rambo-esque fantasies). If you have never been in a similar situation you have no idea how you would ACTUALLY react.

:mad:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

83. Beware.

Sooner or later, nature will cull you.

[HughMoran]

84. Google had me take a rt when I needed to take a left

I'll never use Google directions again - I have since verified that Google directions may have critical problems - I use MapQuest now. Fortunately the faulty Google directions only cost me a few miles and made me late for a critical meeting with my boss - fortunately I was not fired.

[piedmont]

86. Mapquest will still get you killed...see my post #59 above

:hi:

[HughMoran]

87. At least you can choose shortest or main roads there

Google gives you no choice and has actual faulty directions that will get you lost.

I'll die with MapQuest before I'll ever use Google again.

[piedmont]

94. No luck, Hugh.

I just went in and chose "Avoid seasonally closed roads" and it STILL leads you down NF 23.

[opihimoimoi]

103. Sue those map makers who put out shitty maps that KILL....

Years ago, in the Kanab area of Utah...I had 3 maps...and was looking for a short cut through Johnson Canyon from the South ...this would cut off about 80 miles...one map showed it to be paved,,,,thinking it was an up dated map,,,,I chose to take a chance...after 20 miles...it turned into an unpaved road...then came streams...I had to traverse streams with a Dodge Van 2 kids and a wife...It took 2 hours but we made it...

I can understand the Kim's and their tragic nightmare to Hell....I feel for the Wife/kids...the poor guy...what courage.

[Codeine]

126. And you'll never see another map again.

There's not a map around that doesn't incorporate an error, have outdated information, a misprint, or a similar problem. Mapmakers aren't responsible for your safety.

[hedgehog]

104. To those advocating a cull: did it ever occur to you that the Kims were

not planning a wilderness adventure? They thought they were driving on a road, not a dead end trail. They had no idea what they were getting into because it never occurred to them that they were leaving civilization. I'd like to see some of the survivalists on this thread survive a week in LA or NYC with the same quality of information the Kims had.

[napi21]

113. Have you heard the most recent informationonCnn today?

It seems the Forestry Dept. guys had a large pipe gate blocking the "wrong road" from being used, but some pranksters cut the bolt and swung the gate open. The Kim's were driving along, and came to a fork in the road. The correct route was to take the left, but because the barrier had been moved away, it really does look like the right way would be to go relatively straight, which was the road that ultimately turned into a dirt road, and then impassable!

the maps might have had some affect on their choice of roads, but I sure hope who ever broke the lock and moved the barrier suffer the rest of their lives in shame and sorrow, and then burn in hell! I know we've all pulled some pranks in our lives...I have too! I remember howwe laughed when we pulled several of them. But I never caused anyone's death! I hope all of you can say the same.

Here's the link to the CNN story.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/missing.family.ap/index.html

[Little Wing]

123. How can that even be a prank?

[napi21]

124. I think it was probably fairly young people who just don't think about

the possible consequences.

When I was about 13, my friend and I decided totie a black thread across the road and hang some leaves on it...you know...to make it look like a wire. We did, and then hid behind some trees in the woods along the road. We LAAUGHED really hard when this car came down the road and skidded to a stop! The driver looked all around but we were well hidden and he never saw us. When I told my dad about it that night, he got quite angry. He said, "Don't you two realize you could have caused an accident?" I guess we never thought about THAT!

That's what I'm talking about.

[petronius]

128. Probably not a prank - probably local people wanting to use the road

to get into the forest a few days/weeks before the storm. (That's my guess, anyway.) I'm not saying the gate-cutter should be absolved of responsibility in the slightest - they absolutely should hae closed the gate - but it was probably more thoughtlessness than maliciousness...

[sandnsea]

129. Most likely hunters

Possibly Christmas tree seekers, or people cutting firewood. My understanding is that there were several signs that said snowdrifts ahead, or some such. Perhaps the people who cut the gate assumed that nobody would try to take that road to the ocean, considering the signs and all. I don't know for sure. It's mostly sad that people just don't understand how bad these mountain logging roads can get. We had a couple and 4 kids lost on Mt Hood overnight just recently too, getting a Christmas tree.