San Francisco fights over its character

[Ignacio Upton]

By JUSTIN M. NORTON, Associated Press WriterFri Dec 8, 9:29 PM ET

An effort to clean up some of the city's seedier neighborhoods and rid the streets of junkies, hookers and runaways has run headlong into San Francisco's free-to-be-who-you-are ethos.

Nearly four decades after the Summer of Love, residents and merchants frustrated with what they regard as blight are turning to the city for help or taking revitalization into their own hands.

But other residents of the Tenderloin district and Haight-Ashbury contend a crackdown would rob their neighborhoods of their identity and violate everything San Francisco stands for.>>

<<Elected officials in San Francisco know they must tread lightly to avoid offending people's ultraliberal sensibilities.

"If that behavior is negatively impacting a neighborhood, we are going to deal with it," said Trent Rhorer, the city's head of human services, "but deal with it sensitively and responsibly in a way that gets people in real services instead of simply fining them, citing them and putting them in jail."

Other parts of the Bay Area are feeling similar tensions. In Berkeley's People's Park, site of historic 1960s protests, the University of California has proposed eliminating the grassy hills where the homeless have long congregated. Critics complain the plan would destroy what makes the park special.

In the Tenderloin district, San Francisco's seediest quarter with its flophouses, strip clubs and sex shops, a community group wanted to plant hundreds of trees and enlisted an organization that helps homeless young people to do the work.

But the beautification project angered some gay and transgender residents.

Pamphlets were handed out deriding the proposal, and a picture of the community group's chairwoman, Carolynn Abst, was featured on "Wanted" posters accusing her of heading a "brutal gentrification squad."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061209/ap_on_re_us/defending_blight

[Ignacio Upton]

1. I'm sorry, but I don't get how wanting to clean things up is bad?

Granted the homeless shouldn't be treated like second-class citizens, but the quality of life in SF is important, but there is a point in which this bullshit should not stand.

[zreosumgame]

5. what 'bullshit'?

the right of Starbuck's to have a shop on every block and the right of Wal-Mart to raze neighborhoods to put in super centers?

[Quantess]

40. The day Wal-Mart threatens to come into the city of SF proper,

is the day I fly there on a moment's notice to protest!

[zreosumgame]

50. they have and are trying...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. There aren't any Wal-Marts in SF. n/t

[zreosumgame]

49. if you think they have not tried you are not paying attention

and i do notice you are not touching Starbuck's, why would that be?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

56. Because Starbucks isn't destroying the fabric of space/time like Wal-Mart.

I know all about Wal-Mart's trials and tribulations on SF. I don't really thin Wal-Mart and Starbucks are of comparable badness.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

6. Someone had to say it,

I have not been outside the San Francisco airport in about five years, but the last time I was there the city was just plain disgusting. The degree of public filth is unlike anything I have ever seen outside the third world.

I also have to say the San Francisco Police are the laziest motherfuckers I have ever seen,

[Shakespeare]

10. Not true.

I worked in SF until a few months ago--it's a lovely place. It has its bad neighborhoods just like any major city, but it's certainly not "filthy."

[EFerrari]

16. That's simply untrue. And as I work on community issues

with the SFPD, I call total unequivocal bullshit.

:hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

17. I agree it is bullshit,

The police should do their job, even if it means having to touch dirty people.

Six of them looked on as a junkie high on something was completely freaking out and smashing a handcart (that probably wasn't his, just guessing) into everything in sight and ripping up plants and throwing them at people. They only reluctantly moved the junkie on after a resturant manager came out and started screaming at them.

Another two cops seemed downright ammused as a trio of bums terrorized a french couple with a young child "bet they don't see that at home" my french isn't the greatest but I don't think they were taking it in with the local color.

And a pair of cops in a car didn't seem all that concerned as two bums we having some sort of gladiator battle in traffic. I don't know what the hell they were fighting over, but they seemed pretty serious about it.

The police also seemed in general completely unconcerned with drug use right infront of them, junkies leave behind very dangerous garbage. Yet I bet if me and my colleagues were smoking weed we would have been arrested on the spot.

And this was all downtown,

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Lucky for you there are NO seedy parts of L.A.

And no one ever complains about the LAPD. :eyes:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

21. atleast the LAPD does their job from time to time

There is also zero-tollerence for vagrency in the tourist areas, if I was a bum terrorizing tourists in say Downtown Disney I would get my ass kicked.

If I was on a street downtown smashing a dolly into parked cars, people, storefronts and ripping up plants and throwing them at people while six police officers were present, I would get my ass kicked.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Yeah, I remember when the LAPD asphyxiated that kid at a Dead show in the late 80s

well, they were "justified"- after all, he was "behaving erratically", i.e. he did a handstand.

For the record, I think your story sounds like Bullshit. But if it suits you so much, stay down south. We have way too many damn people coming up from there as it is.

[mark414]

42. i've been one of those kids

and am friend to many...plenty of us got and get our asses kicked by the cops for doing absolutely nothing

i was sleeping out on the beach and a san francisco cop kicked me in my stomach to wake me up

you're full of shit

[Quantess]

44. Was this an episode of COPS that you saw on TV?

Or was it something you witnessed in San Francisco, or something else?
I'm sorry. Sometimes I miss the connection.

[Shakespeare]

58. As someone who's spent considerable time in downtown SF...

...I call bullshit.

And I find it fascinating the way you choose to refer to certain people. It's very revealing.

[dad]

64. SF has some problems

We took a vacation to SF a few years ago. Stayed near the Tenderloin area, not knowing any better. Saw drug deals right out in the open, in front of cops just as another poster indicated. People tried to sell us drugs even though we were pushing a stroller with a baby. The place was crawling with aggressive panhandlers. It was very unsafe, dirty, noisy.

[cool user name]

53. Explain public filth?

Would that be a bunch of undesireables or something?

[Duncan Grant]

62. I'll call bullshit, too.

...but the last time I was there the city was just plain disgusting. The degree of public filth is unlike anything I have ever seen outside the third world.

What happened? Did you spend your entire vacation on 6th Street between Mission and Market?! If this is what you believe about San Francisco then it tells me that, a) you spent very little time here and b) what you mistook for downtown was actually the tenderloin.

And c) you've never even been to the "third" world. :eyes:

edit: As for "public filth" - what the hell are you talking about?

[EFerrari]

9. Why are you talking about cleaning up the homeless as if

they were garbage?

That's just gobsmacking.

Do you work for Gavin Newsom?

[muntrv]

2. Where does it say that you cannot clean up the city and help the homeless?

[Peace Patriot]

3. Yeah, clean it up, prettify it, and sweep the human detritus onto the

compost heap. Money is all. Business is all.

The homeless, the addicted, the poor, the sick, vets with psychological and addiction problems, stranded families, the disconnected, the crazy, people who get overwhelmed in our often cruel corporatized society, and all the people Reagan dumped onto our streets in the '80s from the state hospitals, have nowhere to go. They want community, even if they don't know how to get it. They don't want to be closeted away. They don't want to be rejected. They don't want to be swept into the garbage bin.

Crime is one thing. Sick, stranded, lonely people, people who cannot cope, is quite another. We need to recognize that they are us. And as sick and disconnected as they are, that is how sick and disconnected our society is, deep down. They define the dark side of corporatism for us. We need to see them. We need to step over them on our way to get our lattes. And we need to create a country and a society in which such extreme alienation and disconnection does not happen, or only rarely so.

I am certainly not against beauty. I love trees, forests and parks--and I think they are good for everyone, most especially for the down and out. So this campaign against the tree-planters seems unbelievably stupid, on its face. Everyone wants to have a safe and pleasant environment--even people who do not know how to achieve it, or have such low self-concepts that they cannot imagine themselves in a comfortable environment.

I am not saying, don't beautify things. But I would ask, who is it for? Are trees for everyone, or just for those who can afford an apartment in a nice neighborhood? Is the goal a "nice" neighborhood, or a friendly, open, communal neighborhood, where all are welcome who merely want to BE?

The question should be asked. We MUST face what our society, and our extremely inequitable wealth, has done to people who cannot cope, who fall through the cracks, who are overwhelmed by misfortune, or who merely fail, time and again. We need to rekindle our own humanity, our brotherhood and sisterhood with humankind, and with individuals who are hurting and in need. We must stop letting the corporate ethic of greed and selfishness infect our communities and our cities. These are our fellow and sister Americans. They, too, are America, and their dreams are shattered. Where would we sweep them to?

I know it's hard. I'm middle-class. I like neatness and order. I'm uncomfortable with drunks and other needy people. I want them to just shape up. I have to make an effort to realize that alcohol is a disease, and that homelessness is very often completely no fault of the homeless--and even if it is a fault, a flaw, a failure--am I myself not just damned lucky not to have fallen that way?

There are so many things WRONG with our society, with our government, with our economy, that beat people down, that make them feel hopeless. To then want it "clean it up" as if human beings were garbage, is also wrong. It's the ethic of egotism, of childish self-love, which manifests itself in truly ugly ways on a grand scale--with egotistical presidents who slaughter hundreds of thousands of people without a thought, and egotistical grand thieves who are stealing all of our communal tax-created wealth, and egotistical CEO's who cover up pollution and other harm to our country and our people, and pay themselves millions in unearned dollars.

Right and wrong. We seem far from those concepts. Clean and tidy and open for business is not a very good substitute.

[Quantess]

43. But, why should they all come to San Francisco?

Good citizens of SF work hard---they work harder than most people to pay their rent and high cost of living.

Why must vagrants move to SF?

[Bicoastal]

4. What is the Conservative equivalent of San Francisco?

i.e, the city that that LIBERALS uphold as the example that America is going to hell in a handbasket? Conservatism run amock?

I would have said Sugar Land, TX, but they've got a Democrat now. Dallas? Annoying how liberal cities always get the most negative attention from the media...usually cause they're the biggest! New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, etc...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

7. John Gunther said this about reactionary cities

I found a copy of "Inside U.S.A." by John Gunther. He used to write travel books for Americans about other countries, in the 40s and 50s, and they always had the title Inside _____.

The book "Inside U.S.A." was published about 1947.

He said, and I am paraphrasing, that Houston and Tulsa were the two most reactionary cities he had been in in America. And it was because of the domination of the oil business. He said that Houston had NOT one decent restaurant, and was quite bigoted, but on the other hand had one of the great technical universities in America - Rice University.

It was formerly named Rice Institute, as techie schools were always named "Institute", as in "Case Institute" (now merged with Western Reserve) and as is still the case with Caltech and M.I.T.

However, since the JFK assassination, and the fact that the John Birch Society was quite active there at that time, I'd say Dallas, and generally North Texas and all of Oklahoma are incredibly reactionary.

Bartcop lives in Tulsa and calls it "K-Drag". That's short for Knuckledrag, Oklahoma.
Besides, Tulsa is the home of "Six Flags Over Jesus", a/k/a Oral Roberts University.

Because of the Houston connection to the Bush family, I'd say we definitely have our conservative areas. However, we also have our liberal, arty, funky areas like The Heights and Montrose.

The Heights and Montrose are close to downtown and have therefore become too expensive for the average artist to live there.

[TahitiNut]

8. I've only been in Tulsa briefly, but I'd say it's a clear contender.

My step-brother lives there and he's disgustingly Republican. :puke:

[cool user name]

54. Dallas has its arty, funky, liberal areas too

Such as Lower Greenville and Deep Ellum.

:shrug:

[crispini]

14. It's because most proper urban cities are turning blue.

Even Dallas (proper) just elected a whole boatload of Democrats. To look for a Conservative bastion, I would think you would have to look to the burbs. Allow me to nominate Collin County, just north of Dallas, and the third most Republican county in the entire nation. It has a lot of McMansions in their pretty McBurbs, lots of SUVs and big ugly malls with acres and acres of parking. It is very good at building roads and new, plastic-fantastic subdivision, but for all their wealth, they do not take care of each other. They have a horrible substance abuse problems in many of their schools which they try to forget about. In order to qualify for help with health care in the county, you have to make less than three thousand dollars A YEAR. Thousands of Collin County residents who are broke come to Dallas county to go to the county hospital, because they cannot get medical care in the city. There is no public art, no public transportion, and almost no provision for public civic life at all. The only place that large groups could gather would be at the mall. Oh, wait, and they do have parks, because they like sports. It's pretty much my idea of hell.

[BlueCollar]

22. Conservative Bastion?

How about Tarrant County? More rednecks per square mile than any other county in Texas...methinks

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

18. I can't think of any big city where conservatives run rampant.

Liberals = Big Cities
Conservatives = Rural Towns

[dad]

65. Salt Lake City?

I have never been there, but that is my image of it.

[AngryAmish]

57. Indianapolis or Cincinatti

[Mythsaje]

11. Just in time for the 40th anniversary of the "Summer of Love."

I was there for the 20th. I was one of those street kids for a summer. The commercialization of the Haight was already well underway. There were a lot of people who resented the massive influx of folks who just wanted to know what the place was about, who wanted to experience even an echo of something that had a hand in changing America just a little.

I have a lot of great memories of those times.

And my memories of San Francisco cops, for that one person who called them "lazy" was of some pretty decent folks, for the most part. "Six Up!" was the cry to tell the street folks that a cop was around, but most of them were pretty polite and some were just plain good folks. Out to make sure people were safe, but not trying to hassle anyone.

San Francisco is a city with its own identity, and part of that identity is in the human flotsam and jetsam that finds its way there.

[mark414]

39. six up is still the cry...

but most of the cops i dealt with aren't so decent anymore - they got pretty rough with the kids the homeguard most of the time

i've gone and go everywhere but something about san francisco and the haight in particular always draws me back...i miss sleeping in the park and out at ocean beach or up on telegraph hill

i'd probably be there right now if it wouldn't have been for a nasty broken collarbone i got hopping off a freight train when i was in baltimore a few months ago...and now i have an opportunity to go to europe in the spring so i posted up with some friends for awhile to save up some dough...but i'll be back soon - but not soon enough

and i have to add on the edit that nobody who's ever been a part of that experience, from the inside looking out will ever know what it means or what it is to be one of those kids - the smartest, most generous, most caring and selfless people i ever met in san francisco are the ones that some of you would rather seen hauled off to jail or shipped out of the city

[Porcupine]

12. A huge population drains its homeless into San Francisco.

You will find no homeless in Mill Valley or Tiburon, Lafeyette, Orinda or Clayton. The solution to the homeless population in San Francisco is to require each municipality in California to provide poverty housing in proportion to it's population.

I'm sure if a little cottage the size of a large bedroom was provided for each sixty housing units in the same neighborhood the neighbors could arrange for the care of the occupant. Then no single group would be overly put out. One drunk among a few hundred productive citizens is not a problem. A thousand drunks congregating in your downtown is.

There are many examples of micro-housing that would work. All we have to do is zone them and build them. Nomadic homeless could be provided with cheap trailers that would get them out their cars.

[Gormy Cuss]

13. You will find homeless in Central Contra Costa.

It's easy to find them one city away from Lafayette, two from Orinda or Clayton. There is a program in Walnut Creek that provides services to about 75 homeless people each week. It's called Fresh Start and is located at a church within shouting distance of some of the overpasses and creek beds that serve as home for some. Fresh Start has put a face on the problem out here.

The problem in San Francisco is enormous in part because it has been such a welcoming place for people from all walks of life. I think that your general idea of spreading the responsibility is a good one. It's more the way small towns used to handle the down-on-their-luck residents. The community took care of them and the community tolerated their problems that kept them from being able to take care of themselves. Increasing available and affordable housing along with extensive supportive services would enable many of the homeless to get off the street and into a safer place.

[Porcupine]

27. But the homeless are not allowed to intrude on the money.

They are run out of town or harrased in most of the towns I listed. People who have service jobs in those areas just don't live there. Tell me I could sit on a sidewalk in front of Nordstrom's and not get arrested.

The rich are heartless asshats.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. I had a service job in Marin for years. You're right, it has become too expensive for most of those

folks to afford living there, paying rent, etc. I moved b/c it got too expensive.

No question, it's an issue.

But I'm sure there are Nordstrom's in San Francisco that you couldn't camp out in front of, either.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. Actually, you could sit in front of the Nordstrom's in WC without getting arrested

simply because Fresh Start is there and vocal. It's not as good as having a place for people to live indoors but they do provide services a stone's throw from Nordy's and there are outreach workers who check up on the known residents. There are some idiots who were upset that Fresh Start makes it easier for the homeless to live around this area but for the most part people are happy to see some services come into the community.

Sure, most of the people with service jobs in the towns you listed don't live in those towns but many of the service people in San Francisco don't live there either because it's too damn expensive. The lack of affordable housing is a problem everywhere in the Bay Area.


on edit: the rich can be heartless asses.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. That's a ridiculous assertion. I lived in Marin for years, there certainly were homeless there.

They came into my old place of work ALL the time. There was a big homeless camp on San Rafael hill for ages.

[Porcupine]

26. But not in Mill Valley, Fairfax, Tiburon or Ross.

The wealthy little towns of Marin spend the money to have their police harass the homeless out of town. A homeless camp in all those woods gets rooted out in DAYS.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. There are no homeless in Fairfax???

Have you ever been there?

And San Rafael has plenty of money--- And homeless people, too. I can't speak for Tiburon but it's conceivable all the homeless in Ross get "rousted" over to San Anselmo.

[Porcupine]

32. In Marin I've only ever seen homeless in San Rafael.

Actually it's the only place in Marin I've seen more than one "person of color" at a time. To be fair I was forced out of the Bay Area 12 years ago by the silly housing prices and have only visited.

I went to high school in Concord and college at Sonoma State in Rohnert Park. The changes I see in the Bay Area since I was a kid are just sickening to me. The traffic, the destruction of open space, the blatant displays of wealth and status. The place is sick.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. There are for sure homeless people in Fairfax. And you're right, things have changed here.

Marin got way too expensive for me, too- I moved up to Sonoma County years ago.

But despite the problems, I still love it here. Beats a hell of a lot of other places I've lived.

[Porcupine]

34. Marin is one good brush fire from extinction anyway....

The roads are impossible to clear. The brush is even thicker than Oakland's was. The houses are too crowded together.

Most importantly; all off-duty emergency workers live out of town

It's a matter of when not if. I was in Oakland the day the hills burned and it made a big impression on me.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. All the same, I'd move back if I could afford it.

Just sayin'.

[Deja Q]

20. Noble in theory, but

will the homeless be compensated for their work?

Why are certain GLBT groups in a tiffy over this? (is it really because of the sex slant???)

If it is about 'community', why can't all involved make it one and put in better, local businesses? (giant names can't control all and it's clear they don't want to be in the US anymore...)

And, yes, the well-to-do can at least help the less fortunate "learn how to fish" rather than shooing them off the lake.

And if the well-to-do did genuinely help, real estate prices would climb higher than via their current attempts.

[Cha]

24. Who's the mayor and why

haven't they made it a priority to make and keep their city by the bay clean?

[LeftCoast]

25. You have no idea...

I'm amazed at the entrenched interests people have in keeping the system the way it is. Did you know that the city of San Francisco has NO IDEA how much money it spends on the homeless? Every time someone talks about an audit you'd think the world was about to come to an end.

[Shakespeare]

59. You don't know who the mayor of San Francisco is?

Seriously?

Hint: major programs for the homeless...

Bigger hint: one of our party's rising stars

Biggest hint: gay marriage

[Cha]

60. I looked it up..

Yeah, he's a cutie..now according to this report in the OP he needs to literally clean up his city.

http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_index.asp

[Guaranteed]

28. There is no reason not to clean up the city.

The argument here seems to be that if everyone can't live in some level of comfort, then no one should. Let the city crumble into a pile of shit.

That's so ridiculous. People, get your head out of your asses. If the city is falling apart, clean it up. No, that doesn't mean throw homeless people in jail. But they need to do their part as well.

[fujiyama]

35. I think there is a real disconnect

between how many want to deal with homelessness in major cities.

The general conservative angle is, "just dispose them" (or shoot them or jail them which seems to be their solution for everything). Rob Cordury displayed that mentality well in his "I want to shoot a hobo" clip on Daily Show a while back.

But OTOH, simply ignoring issues of drug abuse and homelessness isn't the right thing either. The GLBT group stated here really isn't addressing what are problems in these areas. And attacking people for a tree planting program is really low. Though, I would hope those homeless people are being compensated for their work.

I mean, I don't think it's a conservative value to believe it's a good thing for people to have jobs and be productive members of society. Unfortunately, in certain cities the prices are so high they cannot afford anything. Maybe it's time for rent control in SF, if they don't have it. Better access to health care and education wouldn't work either, as well as some temporary housing assistance.

I don't have a problem with "red light" type districts in certain cities. It is however better to keep the areas regulated like in say, Amsterdam, where I believe the prostitutes have STD screening, and they have sane approaches to drugs.

[EFerrari]

36. What. The. Fuck.

And what exactly is it that HOMELESS PEOPLE are not doing to your frickin satisfaction?

Tell me, from behind the comfort of your keyboard.

[Reterr]

41. How do they "do their part"??

By not existing?

[Guaranteed]

45. By not telling people NOT to clean up the city. nt

[mark414]

48. i want to cleanse SF

of all its elitist dot com yuppies who are driving regular folks out

THAT would clean up the city

[Quantess]

61. Didn't that already happen in 2002, onward?

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't you a little behind?
I could be mistaken. Maybe there's a new onslaught of dot-commers? In my opinion, I left just in time (in October 2001).
My friend tells me that SF is returning to the pre- 1998 stage.

[Quantess]

38. As a San Franciscan from 1992-2001, before reading anyone else's comments,

I would like to say that SF is not a smiley happy place when you're walking down the street, trying to mind your own business. It's a big city. Everyone does not like each other, to put it mildly.

The great thing about SF is that there are a lot of cool, interesting, open minded, people of differing backgrounds. That is the draw of San Francisco. Unfortunately, there are pests and vagrants who are drawn to SF for the same reasons, but if they still act like pests and vagrants when they get there, not even liberals will like them!

I was a struggling student for most of those years, and I know that I could have had it much worse. But I got so ******* annoyed by aggressive street-people. I wore sunglasses all the time so I wouldn't have eye contact with unsolicited strangers.

San Francisco is an extremely progressive place. That is my absolute #1 favorite thing about San Francisco! The bums are a blight, I am sorry to say. I've heard great stories about unlucky people in SF sleeping in their cars, before regaining their hold on life. There is a difference.

...now I'm going to read the other posts!B-)

[AtomicKitten]

47. SF is a tough city.

I hated it my first year here. Really hated it. Now over two years in, I love it. You just have to get into the groove and start exploring. There are parks everywhere, community pools, and really cozy neighborhoods. Even the funkier parts have a certain amount of charm, to a point. It is rather breathtaking to take in stride the dichotomy between the ultra-rich and the homeless here.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. Planting trees?

What is the wolrd coming to?

[KamaAina]

52. But, but, but I thought Care Not Cash was gonna end the homeless problem

for all eternity! :sarcasm:

[WilliamPitt]

55. The Haight is dangerous, especially at night.

I almost got mugged there a couple of times, and the girl I was seeing had her purse snatched.

Just before I got to the city, back in 1995, there was some kind of 'clean up Golden Gate Park' thing kicked off by the mayor. They beat the bushes in the park and chased out something like 5,000 people who were living full-time in there...and then did nothing for them. Just left them at the top of Haight Street, and let them just flow into the city.

It wasn't the brightest of ideas.

[Raine]

63. They've being trying to gentrify

those areas for 20-30 years and they haven't succeeded, I doubt they will this time either. San Franciscans are rebels and will keep the city they way they want it not let business dictate.:D

[E.R. Strooley]

66. I agree.

I don't think San Franciscans find a homogeneous city very interesting!