To all those who say "if we leave Iraq now there will be chaos"

[Bjorn Against]

Have any of you looked at the situation in Iraq right now?

It already is chaos, and it is chaos because of what our government has done.

You tell us we can't leave until is stabilized, well tell me then when will it be stabilized?

We have been there nearly four years now and the situation keeps getting worse. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that it might get better soon, in fact all the evidence suggests the opposite.

This occupation needs to end NOW, if we wait for the situation to stabilize we will be waiting a LONG time. At the very least tens of thousands more people will killed, and everyone who insists we stay will be partially responsible for those deaths.

Please, I do not want to hear another word about stabilizing Iraq when obviously have NO CLUE how to stabilize it. We need to get out. Now. If we wait six monthes things will only be worse, it is time to start an immediate withdrawal.

[Monkeyman]

1. There is no way to stabilize Iraq

We would need over 1.2 million combat ready troops. We would need a Leadership that knows what it is doing. Plus the Iraqi Government would need a strong man to take over that the only way the Arab Countries would respect Iraq government. It has been long over due to leave Iraq. But the Republicans cannot and will not see the facts on the ground.

[mwb970]

2. Let's put Saddam back in charge.

the Iraqi Government would need a strong man to take over...

The president says we will win when Iraq can govern itself, sustain itself, and defend itself. Wasn't that the situation just before we invaded? And we had Saddam well contained with the no-fly zones and so on. Those times sure look good now, eh?

[Hippo_Tron]

5. Wouldn't work now, but a good example of how we broke it for no reason

Saddam's royal guard and other military forces have been dismantled so he'd likely be assassinated in ten minutes if we re-installed him.

[skids]

14. Well, it is Babylon after all...

...just sayin... :hide:

[1Greensix]

3. Out of Iraq

I keep seeing reports from Iraq that are totally conflicting. Military spokesmen report that there are great things going on. Death squads are everywhere and Shiite a Sunni are killing each other with at an ever increasing level of insanity. So, what is the average American to listen to, the good news or the bad? We need to remember that no one in the military would hold the rank they do if they ever told the truth about a situation. No one EVER says, "Sorry, it can't be done, or at least not by me." "We don't have any idea what's wrong." "We got in over our heads." "We sure screwed up and need to be evacuated immediately." Military mem always keep a positive spin, cause that's the way they were trained. It's OUR job as civilians to make sure that when they are asked to do a job, it is really in the best interest of the nation, and not a vendetta, or an opportunity to make the rich richer. We need to make sure that we know all the facts before we ask the military to risk their lives, and then allow them to tell us when WE have made a mistake. Wars such as Vietnam and Iraq happen because WE allow politicians to dictate what information WE get and what the military was allowed to do, or report. Since there was never a national interest "need" to invade Iraq, the policies couldn't define victory, and there is nothing we can do to claim any sort of win, we need to pull our troops out. The Shiite will drive the Sunni out of Baghdad within two years, whether or not we are there. The civil war will continue until there are no potential victims available to murder. What we need to do at this point is begin to define our nation's role for five years after we have left. And then leave.

[mike_c]

4. agree completely, and welcome to DU!

:toast:

[newyawker99]

6. 1Greensix!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[onethatcares]

7. no, what will happen is

Iran will step into the vacuum and install it's form of Islam. A national religious leader will call for an end of violence tween the people and believe it or not, it will happen. At that point, the people will be joined against the invading force which will have to either escalate ala VietNam, or pull out completely ala VietNam. Things just don't look good for the home team at this point or in the future.

[wryter2000]

8. Just curious

Who at DU is suggesting we have to hang in there until it stabilizes? I don't read everything here, so I may have missed it.

I might have made that argument in June of 2003. I doubt anyone in touch with reality would make that argument today.

[roamer65]

9. Iraq will be another Rwanda if left to fester.

We need to hand it over to the Saudis and Iranians. It's theirs now, anyway. Just let them come in so we can attempt to move refugees semi-peacefully from one partition to another. It's just like the India-Pakistan partitioning of 1947 at this point.

[newburgh]

10. A question about history... Isn't the India/Pakistan/Kashmir problem

an invention by the British when they gave up control? And isn't Iraq a similar invention? I think we and the British have NO business doing anything there that the people who live there don't want. In this case I think we are morally bound to help rebuild what we unnecessarily destroyed, but leave the leadership details solely to the Iraqi's (or the three countries it should be)...

[roamer65]

11. Saudi Arabia and Iran...

will not keep their fingers out of this honeypot after we're gone. I think we should just recognize the fact and let them in to participate in our withdrawl. Let them set up "safe zones" for Sunnis and Shi'a migration. We have to stop the fighting before this can be settled, and we may not even play a part in the settlement. Hopefully.

[karlrschneider]

12. Well, the problems at this stage are a little different because of OIL

that wasn't a big deal when Iraq was fabricated (or the other business...remember when Bangladesh was 'East Pakistan'?)

Nobody that I've heard from seems to know how to divide up Iraq so everybody gets a piece of the petroleum pie. For sure *I* have no clue...

It's a bit like being in a room with 3 or 4 doors and there's a man-eating tiger behind every one of them.

[Disturbed]

13. The Busholini Regime is like the monkey

with it's hand in the jar. It can't get the fruit if it let's go of it but it can't get it's hand out of the jar unless it lets go of the fruit.

[karlrschneider]

15. It's a old Kalahari Bushmen's trick to catch baboons

chimps are smart enough to let go to get their hand out of the hole in the tree but baboons aren't.
I think we are insulting chimpanzees when we call W a chimp. ;-)