Rudy Giuliani for President - Will it work?

[tcfrogs]

Considering the piss poor crop of potential Repugs running for President, just wondering what my fellow DU'ers think of him. Plenty of not-so-old skeletons in his closet, plus he's not a far-right fundie.

Opinions please.

[nam78_two]

1. Hopefully not.nt

[snowbear]

2. ACK!

On the other hand.. I hope they do select him!

[Catherine Vincent]

3. No more republicans.

It's as simple as that.

[opihimoimoi]

4. Him being a Former Mayor...very very LOW LOW ODDS

Plus he has a history of being KINKY

Kinky Mayors don't cut it in this Country...

[NEOBuckeye]

5. He would split the GOP... probably a good thing

Giuliani is a Liberal Republican, which seems an oxymoron in today's political atmosphere, but they do still exist in small numbers. Mostly in the Northeast.

He's obviously pro-Big-business, but also, I believe, pro-choice. When he and his wife seperated, he moved in with a Gay couple. It's very easy to see the Reactionary "Christian" Right throwing a real fit over his nomination, which in my book would be cool. Whether or not he would be elected President would have much to do with how many Moderates and Liberals he could draw into his camp, away from the Dems. But his own party would be split into turmoil.

[HamdenRice]

18. The biggest, most stupid Giuliani myth of all -- the "liberal republican" tag

Giuliani is not a "liberal republican." He is an outright and proud fascist.

[Sugarcoated]

6. My conservative brother

is gung ho for Rudy (along with several other conservatives I know), mainly, I think, due to his 9-11 take charge image. He's not the kind of Repub who would be bothered by Giuliani's so-called social/moral issues, nor is he a religious guy. He's 100% atheist. Curiously, I'm the spiritual one of the family (the seeker variety) and the furthest to the left.

[NewJeffCT]

14. Fundies seem to be selectively blind to a person's faults

They didn't mind that Reagan was the first divorced president, and that his 2nd wife gave birth well under 9 months after tying the knot with St. Ronnie...

They didn't mind the fact that George W. Bush was an admitted alcoholic, or that he used coke...

Heaven forbid, however, that somebody gets a blowjob in office!

By the way, as I stated below, Rudy got the endorsement of Pat Robertson, which will help him with fundies enough to maybe allow him to beat out McCain.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Ask your brother

where was Giuliani before the Towers fell? He certainly wasn't where he was supposed to be and has a result of his incompetence 100's of fireman died has a result.

[skipos]

7. I don't see the GOP nominating someone the fundies dislike so much. nt

[tcfrogs]

20. That was my initial thought

And thanks for the responses everyone. As I said in the original post, I was just wondering what some of the issues/concerns that people might have.

[Bobbie Jo]

8. Not gonna happen.....

As Snowjob would put it.....he's a "non-starter."

Too many skeletons in this guy's closet.

[bananarepublican]

9. NO WAY! He was a post 911 Bush enabler!

Why was he so keen on shipping the steel from the WTC collapse (INCLUDING BUILDING #7 - WHICH WAS NOT STRUCK BY AN AIRLINER) off to China as scrap?

Should not a crime scene have been set up and a full investigation launched?

FU Rudy!!!!!

[NewJeffCT]

10. I think he's the man to beat on the GOP side

The fundies like him a lot more than McCain - he's gotten Pat Robertson's endorsement.

He has the big money backers from NYC that McCain does not have.

He campaigned hard for Bush in 2004, so has the loyalty of the Bush crowd and Republican insiders.

His dress in drag will be spun to say that it shows he has a great sense of humor and is confident enough in his masculinity to do something like that.

Republicans didn't care that Reagan was divorced, or that Bush Jr was an alcoholic and used coke... why would Rudy's past be an issue to them?

Many Republicans are followers, so will vote for whomever they perceive to be the frontrunner.

[greenman3610]

11. Giuliani vs Brownback!!

and pass the popcorn!

[sendero]

12. Guiliani..

... is a total media concoction, a virtual empty suit. Standing on the street talking through a megaphone does not make one a hero, no matter how much Fox et al would have you think it does.

I don't think he's got the gift of TV oratory that it takes to be elected. We'll have to wait and see.

[Vinca]

13. He'd be fun to have as a nominee.

Wasn't he despised in NYC before 9/11? Then, of course, there's the ex-wives and the fundies will appreciate his gay roommates.

[dysfunctional press]

16. Sure, that would work FANTASTIC!

for OUR side.

[HamdenRice]

17. Giuliani -- The only Republican WORSE than Bush

If Giuliani were to become president, you could kiss democracy goodbye. Giuliani is an out and out fascist and racist, and turned New York City into a murderous police state during the years he was mayor.

Hundreds of thousands of African American and Latino men were randomly thrown to the ground or against walls, and frisked by undercover police officers for the sake of a few thousand actual arrests. Thousands more were arrested and held for days for the "crime" of not possessing an ID card. With this kind of "policing" several black and Latino men were killed by police for no reason, and in each case, Giulini blamed the victims.

Early in his administration, Giuliani openly bragged to the press that he refused to talk to or shake hands with any black person, and he maintained that position until the massive protests that arose as a result of the Amadou Diallo police murder forced him to do a photo op with a few black politicians.

After the 9/11 attacks, Giuliani tried to suspend New York City's constitution (the City Charter) and demanded the power to simply stay in office as mayor without an election and violate constitutionally mandated term limits.

Giuliani, like all fascists, also censored art and thought to an outrageous degree. He threatened to close down the entire Brooklyn Museum, one of the city's premier cultural institutions, because he did not like one of its exhibits of young British artists. During his administration, it was illegal to dance in all bars, except for the few that had caberet licenses, and the police took this so far as to interpret the "no dancing" rule as banning, the rythmic nodding of one's head while seated at the bar. And yes, they actually enforced that; I was an eyewitness of that bit of Orwellian policing. This decimated the New York salsa, new rock, punk, and R&B scenes, but of course, the "no dancing" rule was not enforced on the upper east side. (A lawyer once explained this selective enforcement by explaining that the caberet law refers to "rythmic movement" and no one on the upper east side has rythm.)

Meanwhile, he promoted officially approved art, which consisted of course, of his own photographs taken from police helicopters.

In many ways, the blatant lawlessness of the Giuliani administration in New York, and the press's rolling over and reporting his propoganda, and the public's anemic, apathetic response to his dictatorship was the blueprint for the Bush administration's behavior after 9/11.

Of course this eventually caught up with him, and he was unable to run for Senate against Hillary Clinton for the simple reason (despite his pathetic excuses about his personal life) that he would lose by landslide proportions in his own city, and could not carry the state based on upstate republican strongholds.

While the rest of the country was conned into thinking of him as "America's mayor," in the wake of 9/11, he was a despised figure whom Jimmy Breslin famously called at that time, "a little man in search of a balcony."

If Giuliani is elected, this country would be an outright dictatorship.

<edited to add art paragraph>

[Catherine Vincent]

23. And plus he's been married three times.

I thought republicans frowned on stuff like that?

[npincus]

19. he's B*sh with a brain

a dictatrial egomaniacal control freak.. it's his way or no way. I don't believe he would work well with a Dem congress (if it stays Dem). Something tells me that he's too smart to believe we're "winning" in Iraq, or have a chance of "victory". How that translates politically for him and in terms of governing- who knows.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. He is likely too liberal on social issues (guns, abortion, gay rights)

to secure the Republican nomination.

[HamdenRice]

24. Please, please, just stop it; Giuliani is not "liberal" he is beyond fascist

You must not live in New York to have bought the myth that Giuliani is in any way liberal. That bastard is the most dangerous man in American politics and his place on the spectrum is just to the right of Hitler and Mousolini.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. So, Guiliani was opposed to gay rights, abortion, and gun control?

:shrug:

[HamdenRice]

29. Who gives a fuck, when ...

every black and Latino male in New York was likely to be thrown on the ground, beaten up, frisked and found to be innocent.

Take it from those of us who lived it. Giuliani is a racist, fascist pig.

[Kelly Rupert]

31. The NYPD's actions do not change his stances on social issues.

Don't throw red herrings around.

[NYCGirl]

34. Read this and tell me what a great guy Rudy is:

http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/05/giuliani/index.html

He's a first-magnitude creep with a Mussolini complex.

[Kelly Rupert]

39. His personal character does not change his stance on social issues.

Stop throwing red herrings around.

[NYCGirl]

42. So, he's SELECTIVELY bigoted? It's okay that he terrorizes racial minorities

if he's OK about gay people?

[Kelly Rupert]

46. I don't recall claiming that he was okay.

Simply that he is liberal on gay marriage, gun control, and abortion, and that may cost him the nomination.

[NYCGirl]

48. Yes, but his proclivities toward dictatorship are so damned Republican, they

might just overlook those things.

[Kelly Rupert]

51. That is a valid argument.

And I think it may be correct, judging by the buzz he's been getting.

[HamdenRice]

37. You obviously don't know jack shit about New York under Giuliani

The police department made strides in reducing crime under Dinkins (community policing) and then under Giuliani's first police commissioner, Bratton. When Bratton was featured on the cover of Time, Giuliani, jealous little beast that he is, fired him and hired Safir as commissioner. Safer was a pure ass kisser who simply transmitted Giuliani's orders to kick the ass of every black and hispanic man in New York, for no reason.

This is not a red herring. It was fascist orders by Giuliani that terrorized New York for years.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[Kelly Rupert]

41. The NYPD's actions do not change his stances on social issues.

Using them to deny a claim that he is liberal on gay marriage, gun control, and abortion constitutes a red herring.

Don't throw red herrings around.

[Freddie Stubbs]

38. So, you admit that you have no evidence that he is not a liberal on

gun control, abortion, and gay rights?

[HamdenRice]

40. You really don't get it, do you?

So what he supports gay rights, gun control and abortion? He also supports -- commanded -- the police beating up and arresting something like 400,000 black and hispanic men for nothing, including yours truly.

Fortunately, by the end of his administration, he was having the police beat up, arrest and detain rich white doctors' wives from Westchester (also a true story). If you didn't live in New York, you should really STFU, because you don't have any clue what it was like.

Your argument is as idiotic as saying Hitler was progressive because he was a vegetarian.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. NO, my arguement is that Guiliani's stances on gun control, abortion, and

gay rights will make it difficult for him to get the REpublican nomination. Do you dispute this?

[HamdenRice]

45. No, your argument is that Giuliani is liberal

He isn't. He's a fascist of the worse kind.

So answer this before you pontificate: Did you live in NYC in the 1990s or not. If you didn't you should really shut the fuck up, because you don't have a clue about what it was like.

[Kelly Rupert]

49. You don't get to tell people what their arguments are.

The post simply said that he is too liberal on the social issues of abortion, gay marriage, and gun control to secure the GOP nomination.

[HamdenRice]

52. Listen: You said Hitler was "progressive" because he was vegetarian.

You are insane.

eom

[Kelly Rupert]

55. I said no such thing.

I said he was "progressive on vegetarianism," which is correct, as he held the progressive position on vegetarianism, as he was a vegetarian. However, I have not--and would never--claim that Hitler was progressive.

And your inability to understand complete sentences is rather disturbing.

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. My arguement is that he is a liberal on those issues

Aren't the stances which he has on abortion, gun control, and gay rights similar to the stances of liberal Democrats?

If NYC was such a horrible place in the 90's, why in the world did the voters reelect this guy? NYC actually has more minorities than whites.

[Kelly Rupert]

44. However,

if someone were to claim that Hitler was progressive on vegetarianism, they would be perfectly correct to do so, and bringing up his other failings would be unwarranted.

[HamdenRice]

47. OK, now I know you are insane: "Hitler was progressive"

If you think that Hitler was progressive under any definition, then we can all conclude that you are batshit insane.

[Kelly Rupert]

50. Are you trolling?

Edit: Yeah, you're trolling there. Nobody's that stupid.

[HamdenRice]

54. Compare my post count to yours

You have what 700 posts and declare Giuliani is liberal and Hitler is progressive. Who's more likely to be a troll?

Troll or not, if you think Giuliani is liberal and Hitler is progressive, you are just batshit crazy.

[Kelly Rupert]

56. I didn't claim either thing.

Giuliani is liberal on three specific issues, and is otherwise a conservative.

Hitler was progressive on one thing, and was otherwise a monster.

The ability to seperate individual bits of information about a subject and weigh them independently is not insanity, though I suppose it might seem to be to one without a frontal lobe.

[HamdenRice]

57. Your words: "Hitler was progressive"

He wasn't even progressive on vegetarianism. He farted a lot, and his doctor advised him to eat a vegetarian diet, for his own selfish health reasons. He never advised vegetarianism for the sake of the environment or to reduce poverty, as some do today.

His vegetarianism was also in the service of fascism, so he could portray himself as an ascetic, dedicated to the German nation.

If you think Hitler was progressive on any issue, including vegetarianism or that Giuliani was liberal in any way, you are -- and there is simply no other word for it -- insane.

Did you live in New York under the Giuliani administration -- yes or no?

[Kelly Rupert]

59. You said "Hitler was progressive" first.

And you also said "Giuliani was liberal."

As long as you're playing quote-out-of-context.

Edit: You, sir, have the honor of being the first person on my ignore list. I am completely certain that nothing you say will be of any interest to me, or anyone else capable of thinking in sentences of more than two clauses.

[HamdenRice]

63. Only quoting you

It is extremely dishonest to compare the two uses.

[benEzra]

67. Guliani's reactionary position on gun ownership isn't "liberal"

He is likely too liberal on social issues (guns, abortion, gay rights) to secure the Republican nomination.

Guliani's reactionary position on gun ownership isn't "liberal," it's authoritarian. Just like his stance on random searches of innocent people, privacy and surveillance issues, etc. etc. etc.

Just because Guliani's distaste for civilian guns corresponds with a position the DLC advocated for a decade and a half does NOT make Guliani a liberal, unless you'd also consider William J. Bennett and Bush the Elder to be "liberals."

[Karenca]

22. NUMBER ONE RACIST MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY

Believe, I've lived in NYC through those Guiliani years.
He's a POS.

[HamdenRice]

25. I lived through it also ... The horror, the horror

It is truly scary that there are DUers who have bought the lie that Giuliani was in any way liberal. That guy was an out and out racist/fascist.

[Karenca]

28. The horror, as you say is exactly right.

The crimes he committed against
minority groups was shameful, hateful, and embarrassing.

[NYCGirl]

26. Read this article and tell me how not piss-poor he is:

http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/05/giuliani/index.html

There is at least one nice thing one can say about former New York mayor and current Republican presidential hopeful Rudolph Giuliani -- besides, of course, his penchant for dressing in drag, his love for opera, and the fact that he used to share an apartment with a gay man.

On 9/11, all Americans were frightened children, and in a moment of mythic personal heroism, Mayor Giuliani filled the gaping leadership void. The president looked like a petrified chimp; Cheney was spirited to an underground bunker. Only Giuliani could pull himself together sufficiently to get on TV in the midst of the wreckage and show America that a grown-up was still breathing. On that terrible day our reptile brains looked at Rudy Giuliani and said, "We're OK now. Daddy's home."

And we forgot, some for a moment, some permanently, that Daddy was psycho.

The attack on the twin towers blew a hole in downtown Manhattan and in our collective memory. Osama bin Laden and company did a better P.R. job for Giuliani than spin ghouls Hill & Knowlton ever did for Dick Nixon. He made everyone but the most grouchy and resentful New Yorkers forget that before planes crashed into the World Trade Center, Rudy was a hyper-authoritarian narcissist with a lust for overkill verging on the sociopathic.




AND IT GETS BETTER FROM THERE!

[Kelly Rupert]

30. He's not as bad as Bush,

but that's a bit like hearing a travel agent tell you your destination is "not as cold as Neptune." I personally think he's a bit of a weak candidate, and so I wouldn't mind seeing him run in '08.

[HamdenRice]

32. You obviously don't live in New York

or if you do, you're white. He's much worse than bush. He's the most dangerous fascist in American politics. Take it from those who lived it.

[Kelly Rupert]

58. You have no idea what fascism is. n/t

[HamdenRice]

60. Actually I do -- I lived overseas in a fascist country

Did you?

I lived in South Africa under apartheid for two years doing human rights work, and am an African American. I was detained, shot at, tear gassed. I am well aware what it is like to live under fascism.

So tell us: Did you live in a fascist country? Did you live in NYC in the 1990s?

Why won't you answer these simple questions.

[Kelly Rupert]

61. Yes and yes.

I've lived in China (not fascist, but a dictatorship nevertheless) for two years, and spent two years in New York City before moving to Chicago. I won't answer those "simple questions" because they're not remotely germane to the discussion.

[HamdenRice]

62. I've lived in China and it is not fascist

In case you didn't get the memo, it's communist.

And obviously, you did not live in NYC as a black or Latin person under Giuliani, or you would not be spouting this nonsense.

[Radical Activist]

33. No pro-choice candidate will be the Republican nominee

Especially not when moderates of McCain and Romney to choose from.

[michreject]

35. No

The gun owners will not support him. He's a gun grabber.

[CanonRay]

36. Doesn't matter, the Christian right will NEVER let him run

[triguy46]

64. No way for the freepers to back him, he's too liberal...

and they have made it clear that their strategy is to quit being pansies with us libs, and are going to reveal TRUE CONSERVATISM, whatever that is. In their mind, they got their ass kicked in November because the candidates were not conservative enough. Bring em on.

[LSK]

65. he will have trouble in the primaries

[wildbilln864]

66. Fuck Giuliani!

No way!