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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 10:49 AM
Original message
Anyone watching CSPAN? Kucinich holding discussion of Lancent Study
Juan Cole is there...

going over the methodology now... authors are there to explain.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Of course. It's rare opportunity to hear sanity and reason.
Four men of principle at that table.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. YUP
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. omg they are saying more than likely the numbers are higher than
what they have reported ..they are saying they most likely have undercounted the deaths..

they are saying more bodies going into the morgues than the government is accounting for!

hiding of deaths for political reasons..by government..and bodies not being picked up to be accounted for..

manipulation of data..looking at the data from soviets..

they shed light that is could be in the 900,000 range..of deaths..

trying to get as much as possible.

deaths non violent reasons..approx 45,000..non violent not significant..but it is excellating ( sp) now..we may see higher numbers next year to non violent reasons..for mortality..

trying to get as much as possible excuse spelling pls..'


fly

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. more of what they are saying...
no doubt there is a civil war going on...dr Juan Cole univ of michigan..

Iraq is civil war magnified many times over by the critieria established for civil war..in fact Iraq is higher degree ( basically what he is saying)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. more
Dr Juan Cole......

mortality rate for young men...

unemployment 30-60%

militias get funding in many ways..oil one of them smuggling oil..

young males get into militias from lack of employment

no strong social security from government...

no income so poverity very high..producing widows and children with no income..

many women now prostitutes..losing bread winners..


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. orphans,..Dennis asks about..
not quantified ..but increasing numbers...

numbers increasing by hundreds of thousands every month
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I sure won't count off for spelling, flyarm, your updates are priceless and make the OP work...
thanks Viva and flyarm
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. morning hon!
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Mornin' Viva...
Mornin' girl, how'd ya sleep last night?
You're sev'ral ages older now
Your eyes have started showin' how
The little girl's growin' now

Mornin' girl, was that you last night?
Crying on the radio
Beggin' for a way to go
To go back where love wasn't jumbled so
Oh, no, things are different now than they were before
You know love is more than kisses
A whole lot more

Mornin' girl, put your dreams away
And read your box of Cheerios
And powder-puff that pretty nose
And go out and find your man where the wild wind blows
Mornin' girl
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. thanks fly!
:)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. more:
security makes development impossible..

instability ..afraid for safety for their neighborhoods..people afraid in their neighborhood they are going to be blown up

dennis..people are frozen by violence..


xxxxxxxxxxxx

university people are hiding in their household..because so many killed..
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. surgeons have left..and are driving taxi's in other countires..
some hospitals had 120 surgeons and now some only have 2
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. taxi driver weeping when passing abu grabe...
people are scarred and should scare us all profoundly
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. what would we be doing to put surveyers at risk..
do much larger sample would make acuracy better..

household level ..how did household cope...how did people move from one place to another..how many died for each hpusehold..what can we learn..to help in further conflicts..

now radical difference ..another guy..tone of catrition..great harm to another people..every time pentagon drops a bomb do a summary of collateral damage..a summery of that sort will keep our president to keep the numbers lower ( in essence is what he said)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. dennis again
sorry spelling typing fast..

talking about 650,000 deaths..can be pretty dry discussion..but how families destroyed peoples lives changed forever ..how they see the US forever..

we are looking at a collasal tragedy..a level of violence unimaginable in this country..we suffered from 9/11..he just saw the dvd about world trade center..just a second seeing the police and firemen..shocking..just imagine not 3000 deaths but 600,000 deaths for iraqi people..we are at threshold of what has been done to the iraqi people...

truth and reconsigliation with iraqi and us people..decisive moment to face truth and confront truth of casualties..

this study has enormous implications..

what our government has perpetrated with not much oversight and questionable information
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. did you discuss birth rates..ended report july 2006..last few months more violence
Edited on Mon Dec-11-06 11:59 AM by flyarm
any way to extrapolate undercount because so much worse in last 6 months..question asked..

answer..
birth rates remained similar before war..consistant to what one might expect..

2nd question..
media you might think it is worse ..media only looking at top of iceberg..

artifact incomplete surveliance..no way to know fairly or accurately

juna coles comes back on..and says...

dismayed for 3 1/2 yrs the seriousness was downplayed by politicians in dc and media tv and print press..a situation clearly out of control in 2003..

still being disputed in dc that there is no civil war ..constant denial...from washington..

i don't know what else you would call these kinds of casualties..

50 bodies found in bagdad a day ..most do not realize the iraqi's have a corpse police..in iraq..un reports bodies show signs of drilling..with chemicals also..and bullet behind ear..

tip of the iceberg...


it is obvious only small percentage of deaths being reported by US media/..

contrition needed by actions of US..and what the US has done to an entire nation and civilization..

we need clear idea what has been done..pubiszied ( or something like that)

us military is taking sides without meaning to ..and killing sunni's without even knowing what they are doing..killing sunni arabs..for government of iraq..

when we hear we can't leave because of alqueada..they are not alqueada..

they say they will come get us to us mainland..the people of basara are not coming here..

nonsence

we have destroyed their history..all burned and looted./.clea-side..usa has committed..

we have to stay finish the job... what would victory it look like? ..do we have to kill all the sunni's??

these numbers should be taken seriously

whoaaaaaa..


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. ok filling in..they said when a town was too dangerous to go into they went into the
Edited on Mon Dec-11-06 12:08 PM by flyarm
next closest neighborhood..to do the surveys..but instead of adding the next neighborhood into the report they elliminated it..making the survey less than originally planned..

example..50 neighborhoods were planned, they have less than that in report ..which makes for the possibility of undercounting the dead by violence.

( i think he said.. 48 towns were in final report instead of the 50)

and that was because the towns planned were being bombed or in terrible violence that they could not go into the town...

the towns had approx 50 homes minimum that they were surveying..
they all felt the 650,000 dead was a serious undercount.

fly
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. Juan Cole "this goes beyond civil war.
This is one of the greatest civil conflicts in history" paraphrased.

:(
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. K & R n/t
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
17. This oughtta be headline stuff tonight
Somehow, I feel the MSM's not going to jump on it.

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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. Cole "They are not going to come after us if we leave"
"that's just pure paranoia"


Laying it out. :thumbsup:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. most profound...
les roberts lancet..to the media

"how many graves would you have to go to ......."

( to prove what is being reported by lancet, un, and body count)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. dennis says...
100 million people perished in the 20th century..by wars...
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. If this doesn't wake people up
nothing will. I love Dennis Kucinich.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. It has to be repeated over and over and over...
In post World War II Germany it became unacceptable to ask or to say aloud what anyone (family, neighbors, town-folk) had done during the war. Who was SS? Who had worked in concentration camps? The discussion was off limits.

It wasn't until the 60's and even the 70's when the reality that everyday people had worked to commit the horror of the Holocaust became accepted, that "good people" could be made to do horrible, horrible things if their situation - social and physical - was like that of Germans between WWI and WWII.

I tend to think that the war will end long before the U.S. takes a good long look at the numbers of civilians killed as a result of US action in Iraq - since the time of the Gulf War and onward:

Honor the Deaths at Abu Sifa and Haditha by learning the whole truth

In 15 Years (1991-2006), the US has caused/contributed to 1,000,000 Iraqi deaths -> NOW 1,450,000

Persian Gulf War: 150,000
Gulf War Aftermath: Many thousands
UN Sanctions: Primary cause of 600,000 deaths
Iraq War: 250,000 -> NOW 650,000


The Persian Gulf War did not have to happen: Hussein did not invade Kuwait until after he had received an assurance from April Gillespie that the "US had no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts." Even if he had invaded, alternatives to war were available.

The Gulf War Aftermath Encouraged by American radio broadcasts to rise up against their ‘dictator’, the Kurds of northern Iraq rebelled against a nominally defeated and certainly weakened Saddam Hussein in March of 1991. Fear of being drawn into an Iraqi civil war and possible diplomatic repercussions precluded President Bush from committing US forces to support the Kurds. Within days Iraqi forces recovered and launched a ruthless counteroffensive including napalm and chemical attacks from helicopters. They quickly reclaimed lost territory and crushed the rebellion. By the first week of April, 800 to 1,000 people, mostly the very young and the very old, were dying each day. link Al Franken has said that many 100,000's of Kurds and Shia were slaughtered, but I do not have a printed source.

UN (US/UK Sanctions) The United Nations Security Council has maintained comprehensive economic sanctions on Iraq from August 1990 until March 2003. Sanctions in Iraq hurt large numbers of innocent civilians not only by limiting the availability of food and medicines, but also by disrupting the whole economy, and reducing the national capacity of water treatment, electrical systems and other infrastructure critical for health and life. The oil-for-food program provided an average of $200 per year for each of 23,000,000 Iraqis - well below the international poverty level. In the UN Security Council, countries urged the US and UK to allow the sanctions to be lifted, but the US/UK would not allow this.

Iraq War A Johns Hopkins University study published in the British medical journal The Lancet in October, 2004. // The figure of 100,000 had been based on somewhat "conservative assumptions", notes Les Roberts at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, U.S., who led the study. That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the data from this town is included, the compiled studies point to about 250,000 excess deaths since the outbreak of the U.S.-led war. // Eman Ahmad Khamas.... said: "This occupation has destroyed Iraq. Americans don't know that tens of thousands of Iraqis are in prisons. Americans don't know how many have been killed. Lancet reported 100,000 in 2004, not counting Falluja. Now it is something like double this number."

--------------------------------

It will take even longer for Americans to come to terms with THIS LIST from Killing Hope. Over 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum (ex-CIA)

1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said
the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
56. The American Empire - 1992 to present


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. dennis ..imperative of peace..war is not inevitable..
we do not have to decend into a version of dantes inferno..


sorry i missed some but i was trying to get as much to the cube rats as possible..

i know spelling and typos are bad..but i am not a typist!!

just trying to get this info to those who couldn't watch..

this was incredible..it should be mandatory for all Americans to see!!

i won't count on the us media to report on it..as they were pretty harsh ( yeah) on our media!!

have a good day cube rats!!

fly
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
25. Jump Cut: From Kucinich to Bush. From the sublime to the ridiculous
Suddenly it was like (no, it was) a '60s Goddard film...
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. i can not wait for trascript..the transcript should be sent and read
by every American citizen...

maybe we can all make 100 copies and hand them out everywhere we go..this is incredible testimony..and maybe the most important thing we could do to atone for what our nation has done to the people of Iraq.

i am heart sick...

and in tears here right now.....

i am ashamed to call myself American today......

thank you Dennis..thank you for truth.........thank you for the guts and the honesty you have to your soul!

fly
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-11-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. If you see that transcript, please post it here!
I will be bookmarking this thread. And, of course, I'm also recommending!
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