Reality Check : Not All Criminals Are Mentally Disturbed/Insane

[rpgamerd00d]

In various numerous threads today I have seen people refer to the mental state of hard-core criminals, ones that end up in these so-called SuperMax prisons.

Reality Check : Just because someone does something heinous and unimaginable to you, that does not mean they are insane or mentally unstable. Most criminals are not mentally disturbed - they are just cold-hearted, callous, self-serving mother f***ers. In a way, they are a lot like Republicans in that regard. ( :D )

I am not saying that this makes it ok to inflict inhumane cruelty to them. This thread isn't about that.

All I'm saying is that we "normal people" loathe to admit that there is a dark side to being Human. We don't want to admit that the capacity to inflict great harm and suffering to others does not require a mental breakdown, but merely the will to do it. We refuse to admit that WE are capable of such acts unless we "go mentally insane". Because that makes us feel better about ourselves and more secure in our society. But the truth is that committing horrible, violent crime does not require a mental imbalance. It just requires the will of a self-centered, uncaring, unforgiving mind.

And I think that makes "us normal folk" even more special, because we don't succumb to that dark side within us.

[verse18]

1. Excellent post. n/t

[Taxloss]

2. If they're not insane when they go on, they will be after some time

in American-style incarceration. Much of it is designed to destroy the mind as surely as a bullet to the head.

Jose Padilla is an extreme case, to be sure, but the message stands: isolation like this destroys minds, destroys people. It's wrong if they're guilty. If there's a chance they're innocent, it's almosy unimaginably inhumane.

George Monbiot today:

Last week, defence lawyers acting for José Padilla, a US citizen detained as an "enemy combatant", released a video showing a mission fraught with deadly risk - taking him to the prison dentist. A group of masked guards in riot gear shackled his legs and hands, blindfolded him with black-out goggles and shut off his hearing with headphones, then marched him down the prison corridor.

Is Padilla really that dangerous? Far from it: his warders describe him as so docile and inactive that he could be mistaken for "a piece of furniture". The purpose of these measures appeared to be to sustain the regime under which he had lived for more than three years: total sensory deprivation. He had been kept in a blacked-out cell, unable to see or hear anything beyond it. Most importantly, he had had no human contact, except for being bounced off the walls from time to time by his interrogators. As a result, he appears to have lost his mind. I don't mean this metaphorically. I mean that his mind is no longer there.

The forensic psychiatrist who examined him says that he "does not appreciate the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him, is unable to render assistance to counsel, and has impairments in reasoning as the result of a mental illness, ie, post-traumatic stress disorder, complicated by the neuropsychiatric effects of prolonged isolation". José Padilla appears to have been lobotomised: not medically, but socially.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1970086,00.html

[rpgamerd00d]

3. I was pretty sure I said this thread wasn't about that.

But of course, you're free to post whatever you like.

[Taxloss]

23. You do say that you're not attempting to justify that treatment, but

your point is (as I understand it) that these prisoners are often "just bad, not mad". If that can't be regarded as a justification for their vile treatment at the hands of the state, then show should we regard it? At the very least it appears to be putting the case for withdrawing sympathy from them.

You are right when you say that "inhuman" acts are not "unnatural" human behaviour, but rather part of the human condition. But I would say that that is the result of "insanity" being part of the human condition. "Insanity" itself is a poor word in these circumstances - "disordered" may be better. Being disordered does not necessarily exempt one from being human, nor should it.

[rpgamerd00d]

35. Didn't mean to imply its ok to treat them bad.

I just meant to say its wrong to say "Oh, those poor mentally ill criminals" all the damn time when that is not the case.

Am I bad for wanting to punish criminals? I don't think so, and even if I am, so be it.
That doesn't mean inhuman treatment. It just means actual punishiment.

I simply do not buy that "solitary confinement" is torture. No damn way. Maybe I'm wrong, but you need to convince me.

[Taxloss]

41. The urge to punish criminals is entirely reasonable.

But retributive justice has limitations and intrinsic flaws. If a prisoner is to be released, it would be best, surely, to release them as a healthy and valuable member of society, not as a damaged individual. In those cases the focus must be rehabilitation. And if a prisoner is not to be released, surely a life deprived of freedom is punishment enough?

Bouts in solitary may not amount to torture. But There are sliding scales of solitary from simple removal of privileges through to near-total deprivation of all forms of stimulation. Our minds are wired to be active and social. Permanent or semi-permanent removal of those stimuli will destroy a prisoner's mind, smashing some of the most basic pillars of perception, self-image and humanity.

I don't mind disagreement, BTW, it's a vitally important and far-reaching area, prison, affecting society in more ways than most people imagine, and hould be debated loudly and fiercely.

[SteppingRazor]

4. While what you say is technically true...

the fact remains that a large percentage of the prison population is severely mentally ill. Just look at this huge study, which surveyed 23,000 prisoners.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T1B-4561RH6-5&_coverDate=02%2F16%2F2002&_alid=506769791&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=4886&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bf83bbc7694388152a917c41e67cdec6

It found that a staggering 47 percent of male inmates and 40 percent of female were diagnosable as antisocial personality disorder. That is, almost half of all prison inmates are, literally, sociopaths. When you include psychosis, other personality disorders, and severe depression, you account for more than three quarters of the entire prison population.

In society at large, only 4 percent of men and 7 percent of women are thought to suffer from antisocial personality disorder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)

Of course, when you go to the SuperMax prisons you mentioned, the occurence of the disorder would likely be far higher even than that of the general prison population.

I agree that a lot of people are in prison because of a bad rap -- I think the drug war is a huge mistake. But, at the same time, it would be a mistake to assume that the mental makeup of the prison population is in any way similar to that of society at large.

[cali]

5. Absolutely correct.

The problem of mental illness within the prison system is enormormous.

[rpgamerd00d]

7. Im no psychologist, but I don't buy all this "mental disorder" stuff

I'm a skeptic when it comes to mental illness. I think psychologists/psychiatrists ascribe too much "normal but societally unacceptable" behavior to "mental illness". I mean, "antisocial personality disorder" ? What the f**k is that? That just means the person doesn't get along with others. Since when is that a "mental disorder" ?

I personally don't buy those stats. I think they are over inflated by docs. I won't say why, thats speculation. But I think that most of the criminals with these so-called "mental disorders" are just self-serving a-holes. Period.

[cali]

12. Having spent

3 years advocating for prisoners with mental illness, I can state unequivocally that you are wrong. The number of people I saw with bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia and other serious disorders was staggering.

[SteppingRazor]

16. Antisocial personality disorder is the fancy term for sociopath

It doesn't mean you don't "get along well with others." It means you have no regard for societal norms, no conscience, and no regard for the feelings of other people. There's a vast difference between that and just not playing nice.

You can not buy the stats if you want, but the fact remains that I'm citing an actual study, and you're speculating.

I really don't know what to say in the face of someone who says they don't believe in psychology or mental disorders, except to say that if you ever sat down and talked at length with a sociopath or someone with a severe psychosis, you'd realize that, no, they aren't the same as you and me. Very far from it.

[sandnsea]

18. Go volunteer in a prison

For at least a year - then get back to us.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. You're a skeptic

when it comes to mental illness?

I'm skeptical of diabetes. It's all a big scam.

[rpgamerd00d]

33. I didn't say "I don't believe in all mental illness across the board."

I said that I am skeptical of some conditions of the human condition as being "mental disorders" as opposed to just personality traits.

That's a pretty huge difference.

[MonkeyFunk]

36. I guess

my take on it is that whether it's mental illness OR personality trait, humane treatment of prisoners is a moral imperative. Jesus spoke of it. It reflects who we are as a society.

[Pithlet]

45. LOL

All medicine is a sham. "Cancer" is just a ruse to get people to spend money on costly treatment, for example. I don't believe it exists. Same with most diseases and ailments Those people lying on their asses in hospital beds are either just lazy or really gullible. :crazy:

[verse18]

39. Acutally, anti-social behavior

is a personality disorder. Depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are Axis I diagnoses. Individuals can receive disability payments for an Axis I diagnosis because the are mental illnesses. Personality disorders like anti-social, narcissistic or histrionic personality disorders are an Axis II diagnosis. Axis II also includes diagnosis of mental retardation.

[TahitiNut]

10. The difference between Axis-I (clinical) and Axis-II (developmental) disorders ...

... has to do with whether the disorder is a treatable mental illness or an effectively untreatable, "personality" disorder. It's important to not mix various psychotic and depressive illnesses with the personality disorders.

http://allpsych.com/disorders/dsm.html

[SteppingRazor]

21. Certainly true, but the point of the study was to measure all mental illness...

whether treatable or no. I'm aware that personality disorders are, as yet, untreatable, and so a distinction can be made between those and the treatable illnesses. But that wasn't the point of the study I quoted, of course.

[sandnsea]

14. The rest are addicts and alcoholics

There are very few people in prison who are well-adjusted, educated individuals from happy homes who just decided to embark on a life of crime. In fact, I'd venture a guess that the ones in that category would be the white collar criminals in 'country club' prisons.

[The Straight Story]

6. Not sure how one would define insane

In reference to my own thread, I see such people as having mental issues though (as compared to the 'norm', and I won't even go into Thomas Szasz here, though he might have something to say on it...).

That said, one might be more concerned with what happens in prison as it may well serve only to perpetuate the issues versus solving them.

How they came INTO prison may well be out of our control, how they leave it though is a good deal in our control.

[no_hypocrisy]

13. In criminal law, there are two legal standards of insanity,

that is, lacking the mental capacity to have the mens rea to have willingly and knowingly committed a criminal act.

In the case of murder: A defendant who does not truly understand what s/he did was legally and morally wrong (killing the victim) or if a defendant did not understand that his/her actions were going to result in another's death (e.g., the defendant believed s/he was squeezing a pillow instead of someone's throat).

It takes a lot of experts to persuade a judge or jury that someone is 100 percent, certifiably insane and thus, no culpable for his/her actions.

[cali]

8. Reality check:

I haven't seen anyone on any of the treads you refer to, express that they they thought all or most criminals are mentally ill. You seem to have missed the point of the discussions on the topic of Supermax prisons. In addition, I haven't seen too many folks on any thread germane to the issue of criminality, deny that humans have a dark side.

[LostinVA]

9. Most are sociopaths -- they aren't mentally disturbed/inane

They literally have no conscience, and can't eb rehabbed. They need to stay behind bars for the rest of their lives.

on edit: I'm referring to violent criminals: like Eric Rudolph, serial killers, rapists, murderers, etc.

[radwriter0555]

11. Actually, you're quite wrong. In fact a normal, healthy, stable, cognizant person doesn't commit

felonies of the nature that get one locked into a supermax.

Normal, healthy, stable, cognizant people live good, decent lives and participate on a relatively wholesome level with society. They may perhaps err along their paths and make minor mistakes, but mistakes don't get a person a supermax prison cell. Murder, torture, violent crimes and rape get you supermax cells.

Normal, decent, stable people don't murder and rape. It takes a serious mental and psychic instability to make the acts of murder and rape acceptable to the humans sitting in the supermax cells.

Profile those guys. You can bet every single last one of them has they has very serious mental and emotional issues, the very least of with is psychosis and sociopathic behaviors dating back to childhood and manifesting itself in criminal behaviors for most of their lives.

[LostinVA]

17. You're both right

Normal people don't do this, but neither do mentally ill people. But, sociopaths do. That's not a mental illness, it's a personality disorder. It's the psychological and human form "evil" takes.

[EFerrari]

25. Personality disorders aren't mental illness?

:)

[sandnsea]

26. Diagnosed as a mental illness

Covered by medical insurance for treatment. "Personality disorder" doesn't make it any more or less serious than schizoprhenia or bipolar disorder, for instance. In fact, if I had to choose, I wouldn't choose to be a sociopath.

[radwriter0555]

27. I have to argue the semantics. A personality disorder IS a mental illness...

but I won't belabor the point.

"Personality disorder" is just a newer, kinder terminology that's more socially acceptable. The phrase "mental illness" is just the blunt force blow of reality. It could be argued that the term 'personality disorder' is a lesser version of a mental illness.

[LostinVA]

31. To me, it's not semantics

I'm not arguing with you, I swear! I basically agree with you.

To me, a mental illness is like a physical illness. It's an illness, which sociopaths don't have.

But, as you said, we agree.

[EFerrari]

38. I think the thing is, the tech to treat personality disorders

came along just when we were investing less and less in DELIVERING technology. So, the PDs continue to get a bad rap because many people don't know most of them can be treated -- including some shrinks and related professionals. But, I know next to nothing about Anti-Social PD itself.

[jhhh]

15. Reality Check : Not All Criminals Are Mentally Disturbed/Insane

Are you implying that "evil" may have biological origins?

[LostinVA]

19. I personally think it does

Sociopaths are evil. And, they aren't mentally ill.

[sandnsea]

29. Yes they are

Holy crap. If they "know" right from wrong, a jury may not find that they were legally insane at the time of their crime - but they most certainly are mentally ill.

[sam sarrha]

24. there is not 'Evil' just some bad motherF*ckers with messed up DNA or addiction problems, 87% of the

prisoners in custidoy have adiction related problems.. but i think what you call evil is DNA related..

[sam sarrha]

20. i was a parole officer.. there are things like Antisocial personality disorder, they commit their

first sexual assault around the age of 6 to 8.. first armed rape around 11.. and it only gets worse exponentially worse after that..

here is a blood test for a condition that causes a good percentage of violent crimes but they cant use it.. the condition causes hyper sexuality and is spread thru poverty environments because these people live hard and fast and have a lot of money and drugs to entice young women in to sex who think the fast lane is cool who end up pregnant, concentrating that DNA in the community, young uneducated women think that these people represent success.. with a blood test the families could be trained to help the child focus their drive for competition to more productive areas away from pimping and drugs and violence.. they could be intervened in the juvenile courts and maybe diverted from a live of crime and prison.

then there are sociopaths, like Bu$h who's parents keep out of jail and them lose them upon us.. sociopaths like w and trump care not who they harm in their obsessive compulsive quest for more power and money.. they are no different than the crack dealer in the ghetto.. or a pimp addicting young girls with drugs to turn them into hookers to make money off of

most of the juveniles in my office were just ignorant.. caught up in an Apriori Logical loop.. dysfunctional due to an ineffective and inappropriate world view..

[Warpy]

28. That's been disproven

I think you're talking about XYY syndrome. XYY males are no more likely to end up in prison than normal males. The trisomy is not passed to their children.

There is no diagnostic test for personality disorder beyond a psychiatric one.

[Warpy]

22. Most of the ones I've met in my 25 years as a nurse

were reasonable human beings once prison had gotten them clean and sober, even the ones with 2 armed guards who'd put their hands on their guns when I'd come into the room simply because the guy was only in 2 point shackles and they were afraid of a hostage situation.

My favorite was the homeless guy who socked a cop so he could get warm in jail.

Too many of them had committed crimes because they were addicted and desperate to feed that addiction and the war on drugs had driven up the price to the point that no job would allow them to buy what their bodies needed.

People with personality disorders are more likely to end up in prison, but not everybody in prison has a personality disorder, in other words.

As for the dark side of human nature, all of us know it exists. It's that part that allows us to hate whoever we've been given official permission to hate.

[EFerrari]

30. Researchers have been debating whether a sociopath's brain

is different:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/if/4102371.stm

And this country has been using law enforcement and the prison system to warehouse the mentally ill since the 70s iirc.

[porphyrian]

34. Well, nobody's funding the mental health institution enough to house them.

Homelessness or prison are the only apparent options to many people released from mental hospitals to free up bed space.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

37. Yep. Once when trying to find care for family, I was told

"Get them into the System" -- meaning, have them arrested. :wtf:

:hi:

[Exultant Democracy]

40. Reality check, we send a ton of innocent people to Jail

up to 50% of the people we have in jail shouldn't be there.

[bloom]

42. "up to 50%"

That sounds like a misleading advertisement.

At that rate you could say "UP to 100%" - when it's really probably closer to 2%.

[porphyrian]

43. The Illinois study on people incorrectly sent to death row...

...was closer to 1 in four. Given that, I don't think 50% is any more or less accurate than your 2% when speaking about the general population, and likely varies by institution and moment in time.

[Solon]

46. Actually, according to me, yes, most people in prison now are NON-VIOLENT drug offenders.

In my opinion, that is a travesty.

[bloom]

47. "NON-VIOLENT drug offenders"

I agree that that is nonsense.

I don't know what part of the prison population that represents.


I ? assumed that the poster meant wrongful prosecutions - which I think some people overstate.

[Solon]

48. I would say that wrongful prosecutions are a minority of all convictions....

However, it shouldn't be considered a small problem, as I believe Ben Franklin said, "that it is better guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer."

[Gwerlain]

44. I have a counter-argument.

Socialization is a part of every child's development. In fact, we even socialize our pets. "Don't shit on the rug. Don't steal cookies. Don't steal that toy from little Johnny, and Johnny, don't hit." As we grow older, we learn that there are good reasons behind these strictures that we all accept on our behavior. We don't steal things. We don't hit people. We don't kill people. These are strictures that we all- or most of us- accept as the price of being part of human society. We look down on societies where these things are condoned, or overlooked, and criticize our own society when we condone or overlook them- and, I say, rightly so.

What I'm arguing here is that criminals are not properly socialized. Now, the reasons for that vary a great deal- some might have had problems in childhood, some might just not have the emotional makeup to accept these strictures, some might be victims of diseases, or injuries, or genetic defects that cause them to have mental and emotional problems that prevent them from understanding these strictures and abiding by them.

Some of these people- in fact, looking at the number who have been caught up in the "war on drugs," which we have wasted more money and more peoples' lives on than has any sort of reasonable justification, IMHO- can be taught to accept these strictures. Some cannot. The ones who can, should be- and they should be viewed as mentally or emotionally ill, and treated accordingly. This is not a matter of someone making a choice- it is someone acting based on incorrect understanding of the necessities of human society. And as for the ones who cannot, they are ultimately victims of society. To "punish" them is nothing but revenge- for something that, if they had the capacity, they would not only deeply regret, but that they would never have done in the first place.

Punishment of a child or a pet is behavior modification therapy. For the best results, it must be rare, and positive reinforcement must be common. It cannot be nonexistent, particularly in the case of a being whose safety one is responsible for; dangerous acts must be discouraged. This is punishment. If the goal is not behavior modification, the only other ethically justifiable goal of incarceration is to separate an individual from society, for the protection of members of society. Any additional unpleasantness is nothing but revenge, and revenge is futile, not to mention ethically unjustifiable and morally reprehensible.

I therefore have no hesitation in marking people who believe that "punishment" is a goal of the criminal justice system as morally repugnant. The goal is either behavior modification, or separation for the protection of society's members. This is the difference between true punishment, and simple revenge. So the question is, will we stand up for justice, or will we settle for revenge? I choose to stand for justice, and for the protection of society, and for the rehabilitation of what criminals can be rehabilitated. Not for revenge. I don't want any of my tax money spent on revenge. Do you?

Now, there is one remaining issue. People who have been harmed by the actions of a criminal want revenge. It's a common human failing. We teach that it's understandable, and in some peoples' idea of how society works, the government is a proxy responsible for getting this revenge. I rarely see this acknowledged or admitted in these discussions; people skirt the issue all the time, because the natural reaction to it is to think of a loved one being injured or killed, or oneself being injured or killed. And when we think of that, we are frightened, and we become angry as a result. This is well-known; anger is ALWAYS the result of fear. Our instincts militate toward this response, and we see it in the natural world all around us. And in the context of ongoing danger, this is probably an appropriate response. But when society acts to curb these peoples' actions, is it appropriate any more? Is it appropriate for a family member to sit in court and work for their revenge against the killer of their loved one? Who gets hurt by that? Will killing the killer bring the loved one back? Sure, the killer won't kill again- but most likely, and far more likely if we stopped focusing on revenge and focused instead on rehabilitation, or permanent separation of the individual from society if they could not be rehabilitated, they won't anyway. A killer not being put to death is not an injustice- and a killer getting out to kill again is also not an injustice. It is a failure of society to properly understand the problem and deal with it. I want the problem understood and dealt with.

Here is my proposal: criminals will ALL be subject to rehabilitation therapy. There will be no set end of a period of incarceration, though there may be a minimum. No criminal who has not demonstrated the tools to deal with society on society's terms will EVER be released. Antisocial behavior in prisons will not be tolerated- anyone who engages in it will be removed from the general population, not to return until they have demonstrated sufficient social skills to be able to do so without causing problems; whether that means solitary confinement, or confinement in an extremely prohibitive environment with others who have the same problem, will have to be decided. Release will be a privilege granted under temporary supervision until the individual has demonstrated they will obey the strictures of society. Criminal records will all be sealed- without exception. But if the individual fails to abide the strictures, they will be reopened- IN COURT, and IN COURT ONLY.

We are not about punishment, other than to modify behavior. We are about the maximum number of people enjoying the maximum amount of freedom, with the stricture that no one may infringe on another's freedom. When our criminal justice system becomes about behavior modification, and stops being about getting revenge for the victims and their families and friends, then we will have succeeded. Until then, we are failing. And our tax money is being spent on it.

Think about it.